I think after gholdengo, that things too restricting and got second highest in the survey
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3
- Thread starter TPP
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the sneasler meta has progressed significantly since the survey came out. a lot of people found out during their reqs run that rilla/sneasler is basically an instant win button once you get certain mons out of the way. remember, bloodmoon scored like a 2.something but got suspected before stuff that scored higher because everyone started realizing how bullshit it was just a little too late for the survey. wouldn't be surprised to see the same happen with cheesler
Gholdengo still restricts team building to ruinous degree,sticky web is outright unbeatable for a good chunk of teams,if webs were to rise in usage, it would be really bad, even if sneasler is bordering the line of actual cheese at some point, i doubt that its supassing ghold in votes, but that could be dead wrong
I agree that Sneasler should get suspected at some point, but I personally believe that Gholdengo should get suspected first. Sneasler has only a handful of checks and counters (some of them can get cheesed by dire claw as well), but at least it doesn't have a chokehold on the metagame like no other than Gholdengo.
Don't get me wrong; Sneasler would get pretty high votes, but some people would argue that they have counters, albeit limited. In addition, Gholdengo really does not have the same counterplay; webs teams don't care about Great Tusk due to air balloon Gholdengo being able to outspeed and chip down Great Tusk dangerously low for other broken mons, as well as hazard stack playing the long game and just waiting for Great Tusk to go down due to lack of recovery. There is some counterplay, but it's really limited.
Kenpwnchi
formerly Pwndkthnx
But wait ... aren't you the one getting people's posts shadow removed? Anyways, to stay on topic, Evio Gligar wouldn't be bad, but it doesn't have the same longetivity as Gliscor, so it won't be able to maintain a strong field presence. Also, let's not forget that Lando-T has access to Intimidate, and that's an ability that will ALWAYS outclass whatever the Gli family has to offer (ability-wise). The only ups I'll give GT is that it has access to fantastic moves (like Ice Spinner and Rapid Spin).
Gholdengo is keeping our fragile metagame together during these trying times.... Meanwhile the evil Sneasler is sweeping teams left and right with no setup! Kingambit doing Kingambit things! Ogerpon-W is too fast and strong! And manaphy is cheesing teams left and right!
I will be giving every Pokemon except Gholdengo a 5 on the next survey.
I will be giving every Pokemon except Gholdengo a 5 on the next survey.
true, although considering the pattern of things so far (and GF usually likes to stick to certain patterns) I'm fairly sure we will get defog back as a TM with the second DLC.
if i had the ability to get people's posts removed, i would be using it a lot more often
intimidate does not outclass fucking poison heal, what are you even on, but yes, everything else in the gliscor line is worse than it. and i agree that gligar absolutely does not have gliscor's longevity, or even close to it. it doesn't even have lando-t's longevity because lando-t at least can run lefties. but it does have some pretty neat role-compression capabilities that lando used to have but doesn't anymore, which means that it'll occupy at least a little bit of the ecological niche lando used to fill
oh, sure, when i say it everyone loses their minds
The superior Steel-Flying bird is finally back
To avoid a one-liner, I also have a question to fellow former or current Gen 8 players. As someone who used to be decent competitively but in current gen is kinda mediocre, was there a change in mindset you feel you had to apply while playing between Gen 8 and 9?
Gholdengho is far too contentious to be quick banned imo, it has both negative and positive effects on the meta, like how brings a lot to the tier defensively even in spite of the hazard problem. I’m still of the opinion that banning it won’t do that much to help hazards, but I could be swayed.
is sticky webs really that unbeatable? also w gliscor gone you'll see the rise of some gholdengo counterplay right now, more samm-H, ting-lu, kingambit, heatran, milotic saw some usage lately. balance teams will be fine, stall is fine though ghold can get out of hand for those teams as NP recover sets are really crushing for those structures but still there is counter play. though i do believe gholdengo has huge influence in the metagame, sneasler is way too easy of a wincon to be free rn. do not hesitate to vote high in the survey for both. we can see quickbans for it as its prevalence and strength is evident in the metagame on ladder and in tournaments. its just so easy and boring. gholdengo can still be suspected/quickbanned though i see a qb happening for sneas more and then a suspect for ghold. just vote on the survey and get your voice heard
Kenpwnchi
formerly Pwndkthnx
Maybe not Poison Heal (which I'm sure we ALL know is the MOST optimal ability), but, basically, what you said. That's all I'm saying. You could argue that Lando-T has a better opportunity to take advantage of Tera Type, as well; something that Gliscor, apparently, wasn't using that often. Smite me if y'all want, but I'm still a #Based Tera Type Rock Lando-T supporter.
why sneasler 1?
Sneasler and Gholdengo should definitely be the next two suspects, and they should be test pretty soon. Personally, I'd rather test Sneasler first.
We just banned Gliscor, which will certainly affect the hazard meta, since Gliscor was the premier hazard setter. Hazards won't be quite as strong with Gliscor gone. There are still a bunch of strong hazard setters (Ribombee, Ninetales-A, Samurott-H, Ting Lu, etc.), so Gholdengo might still be banworthy, but I'd like to give Gholdengo a couple of weeks to see if the hazard meta settles down and becomes manageable without the endless spikes setter. To me, it seems like a perfect time to test Sneasler, who needs to get looked at anyway.
Sneasler was questionable on release, since the RNG of dire claw is somewhat anti-competitive, but it had some difficulty setting up. White herb forced a CC, balloon required Sneasler to get hit, and electric or psychic seed involved running bad pokemon to set terrain. The introduction of Rillaboom and grassy terrain has solved this problem, and made Sneasler in a number of ways. It is now easy to activate, and enjoys the defense boost, passive healing, and earthquake resistance. It might be the premier sweeper in the tier right now. Plus it still has dire claw, allowing it to hax through the few answers to SD. Sneasler is really strong right now, and maybe broken, so I don't think there is much of an arguement against putting it to a vote.
I don't think banning Sneasler would impact Gholdengo much one way or the other. The hazard meta, the most problematic element of Gholdengo, would be largely the same.
On the other hand, banning Gholdengo makes Sneasler even stronger. Sneasler can beat Gholdengo 1v1, but tera causes mind games. Gholdengo is immune to Sneasler's STAB moves, so Sneasler needs to use coverage moves, like lash out. Gholdengo beats that with tera (ex. tera fairy), so the matchup can be a 50/50 if tera is available. Sneasler also appreciates less hazards on the field (especially webs).
I'd probably vote ban on both of these mons (50/50 on Gholdengo), but I'd rather give Gholdengo a little bit of time in a Gliscor-less meta.
We just banned Gliscor, which will certainly affect the hazard meta, since Gliscor was the premier hazard setter. Hazards won't be quite as strong with Gliscor gone. There are still a bunch of strong hazard setters (Ribombee, Ninetales-A, Samurott-H, Ting Lu, etc.), so Gholdengo might still be banworthy, but I'd like to give Gholdengo a couple of weeks to see if the hazard meta settles down and becomes manageable without the endless spikes setter. To me, it seems like a perfect time to test Sneasler, who needs to get looked at anyway.
Sneasler was questionable on release, since the RNG of dire claw is somewhat anti-competitive, but it had some difficulty setting up. White herb forced a CC, balloon required Sneasler to get hit, and electric or psychic seed involved running bad pokemon to set terrain. The introduction of Rillaboom and grassy terrain has solved this problem, and made Sneasler in a number of ways. It is now easy to activate, and enjoys the defense boost, passive healing, and earthquake resistance. It might be the premier sweeper in the tier right now. Plus it still has dire claw, allowing it to hax through the few answers to SD. Sneasler is really strong right now, and maybe broken, so I don't think there is much of an arguement against putting it to a vote.
I don't think banning Sneasler would impact Gholdengo much one way or the other. The hazard meta, the most problematic element of Gholdengo, would be largely the same.
On the other hand, banning Gholdengo makes Sneasler even stronger. Sneasler can beat Gholdengo 1v1, but tera causes mind games. Gholdengo is immune to Sneasler's STAB moves, so Sneasler needs to use coverage moves, like lash out. Gholdengo beats that with tera (ex. tera fairy), so the matchup can be a 50/50 if tera is available. Sneasler also appreciates less hazards on the field (especially webs).
I'd probably vote ban on both of these mons (50/50 on Gholdengo), but I'd rather give Gholdengo a little bit of time in a Gliscor-less meta.
Undecided on what the next tiering action should be, as both Gholdengo and Sneasler have merits, but either way, so glad Gliscor is gone.
Either way, the next suspect test will be the last before DLC2 so let's make it a clean one.
I'm also looking forward to playing some games on a post Gliscor meta.
Either way, the next suspect test will be the last before DLC2 so let's make it a clean one.
I'm also looking forward to playing some games on a post Gliscor meta.
I cannot believe you people wanna go for sneasler instead of gholdengo, you people have bad memory, oh yeah, gliscor is finally gone, balance went from the worst play style to the best to the worst again, offense will still use samu-h/glimmora while defense will go back to using ting lu, and air balloon dengo will be there to block removal and set up NPs for free, we are literally right back to step 1 and you people wanna go sneasler because hax? Even if banning dengo in the end doesn't solve jack shit, think that realistically, in DLC 2 we will probably get 3 broken breakers, 1 broken defensive mon, 1 broken hazard mon and 6 hazard removers that lost do dengo
And if we are not banning dengo at least unban chi-yu/volcarona then, fuck man, do not fall into the temptation
And if we are not banning dengo at least unban chi-yu/volcarona then, fuck man, do not fall into the temptation
sticky web with gholdengo is rather unreasonable to deal with,sticky web puts you in range to be chunked if not put entirely off the map by ogerpon wellspring and booster energy special attack iron moth and its setter is actually a solid pokemon in its on right rather than a route one bug type with no stat above 95, the RELIABLE answers to it are great tusk, which is prone to getting chipped and has trouble switching into gholdengos attacks due to its 53 special defence, and cinderace which is honestly a pretty good answer and maybe mandibuzz which can’t do much to bulkier sets even with super effective damage
0 Atk Mandibuzz Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 152-182 (48.2 - 57.7%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO
0- Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 128-152 (40.6 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
or scizor which is kinda mid, if you can’t fit these mons on your team, your probably screwed, if you can fit them, you still got alot to deal with like ogerpon wellspring with is very hard to switch into since you risk giving it free set up, its just a fairer battle,
IMO, people need to stop focusing on Dire Claw which is unreliable and cheesy. Sneasler without it and running an actual powerful poison stab if needed is a very powerful wincon. The Sneaslers that run Dire Claw aren't really the big reason its getting more attention. (though it does suck to get haxxed by Dire Claw ngl)
but also yeah ban Gholdengo if we need to
I think we need to take care of ghold first, then suspect and ban Sneasler all before the DLC drops.
Also predicting ghold gets banned by a higher margin than gliscor got
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I'd say we let the Council vote on Sneasler, let them decide whether they wanna quickban it or not (I think it's a pretty bs mon that is on everyone's radar at the moment), then we suspect Gholdengo and only then, if the Council turns out not to agree on the quickban, we suspect Sneasler as well. A Council vote would be pretty quick (at least compared to a Suspect test) and everyone here would end up being happy with their most hated toy banned from the playground.
The only problem is that if we ban Dengo first then Sneasler is gonna go on a rampage until we inevitably end up banning it, considering that Gholdengo is in fact one of its primary checks.
The only problem is that if we ban Dengo first then Sneasler is gonna go on a rampage until we inevitably end up banning it, considering that Gholdengo is in fact one of its primary checks.
Aww fuck no, not that shit again in OU
Sure volcarona is infact my goat and i would argue that it wasn’t really worthy of a quickban or a ban at all, but chi yu will make hyper offense ungodly since it forces KOs like nothing,defensive mons are shattered by it and stall willl be borderline unusable in its wake, which interrupts the offense defense balance that this tier has being trying to recover
252+ SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Chi-Yu Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Milotic: 147-174 (37.3 - 44.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
not every defensive team can fit a slowking or a anti meta pick like milotic and slowking is weak to chi yus other stab
spikes were never the only issue with ghold and now its not even a real problem, gliscor literally just got banned
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I think we should suspect Gholdengo first, and quickban Sneasler after that, as was the case for Espathra after Chien Pao suspected.
Because Gholdengo is clearly one of the most influential Pokémon in the meta and it forces Sneasler to play no optimal coverage moves, which limits the latter somewhat. Once Gholdengo is gone, Sneasler will do whatever he wants, and should be banned accordingly.
Because Gholdengo is clearly one of the most influential Pokémon in the meta and it forces Sneasler to play no optimal coverage moves, which limits the latter somewhat. Once Gholdengo is gone, Sneasler will do whatever he wants, and should be banned accordingly.
Gliscor's removal has posed an interesting question for the tier. What's better, having a Pokémon that centralizes viability and interactions for the whole tier completely around itself but also makes every team style viable, or a meta centralized around offense as the only usable archetype? I'm hoping that it's just a transitionary stage but as someone who doesn't really play offense I'm struggling to make anything work now. I know it's still early in the new meta. Spikes are still very overwhelming, in spite of removal becoming more realistic, and there are too many Pokémon that are too hard to switch into - a key issue right now is that Pokémon that ideally function as glue the way Gliscor did are very vulnerable to spikes, Fraud-Lu being a key example.
It feels like if we're to reach a balanced state and keep Gliscor out, Wellspring, Cheeseler, and Gholdengo all need to go at minimum. Wellspring is a very powerful wallbreaker that's absurdly difficult to switch into and knock off is a broken move in this meta, Gholdengo provides offense WAY too many ridiculous tools between its ability and access to nasty plot and trick, and the Purple Menace doesn't need any elaboration. Honestly even Cornerstone is worth considering once we're hopefully in a post-Wellspring world, and Kingambit will probably reach a point of being broken again at some point in this process as well - it already loves this most recent ban
I don't want this to come off as salt or complaining about the result because I completely agree that Gliscor was a very centralizing Pokémon that was extremely consequential for the teambuilder and its variety of progress-making options were overall very difficult to account for and navigate in battle, but I worry we may have banned a GSC Snorlax and have much more limited playstyle options as a consequence. I'm hoping gutting offense (maybe even taking away a Certain Mechanic that makes it absurdly powerful) is enough.
TLDR nerfing every archetype except for webs, glimmora HO, and grassy terrain has not made for a very satisfying meta thus far and I hope that changes
It feels like if we're to reach a balanced state and keep Gliscor out, Wellspring, Cheeseler, and Gholdengo all need to go at minimum. Wellspring is a very powerful wallbreaker that's absurdly difficult to switch into and knock off is a broken move in this meta, Gholdengo provides offense WAY too many ridiculous tools between its ability and access to nasty plot and trick, and the Purple Menace doesn't need any elaboration. Honestly even Cornerstone is worth considering once we're hopefully in a post-Wellspring world, and Kingambit will probably reach a point of being broken again at some point in this process as well - it already loves this most recent ban
I don't want this to come off as salt or complaining about the result because I completely agree that Gliscor was a very centralizing Pokémon that was extremely consequential for the teambuilder and its variety of progress-making options were overall very difficult to account for and navigate in battle, but I worry we may have banned a GSC Snorlax and have much more limited playstyle options as a consequence. I'm hoping gutting offense (maybe even taking away a Certain Mechanic that makes it absurdly powerful) is enough.
TLDR nerfing every archetype except for webs, glimmora HO, and grassy terrain has not made for a very satisfying meta thus far and I hope that changes
I'd be okay with that honestly, Sneasler is gonna be a massive problem the moment ghold goes since its the only reliable answer to sneasler
Regardless I kind of wish we could have seen what gliscor would have been like in a gholdless meta but that's not gonna happen until dlc2 so I guess we have to wait to see how that plays out
Also yeah Volc isn't coming back unless a tera ban happens, no one wants to deal with both Volc and gambit using tera to cheese past teams, because that sounds like a recipe for disaster unless tera goes. ALSO NO WE ARENT LETTING THE FISH BACK IN, THAT CAN STAY UBERS
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