To be fair, like all banned pokemon this gens are blatantly broken and probably most of them are still broken without Tera regardless. OU council done a pretty good jobs with quickban and suspect test pokemon this gens, they are very responsive to the community. The meta trend is just completely fucked up, that's not their fault.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3
- Thread starter TPP
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Honestly not totally because, while youre right other metas dont have an impact on higher tiers, they do have similarities in the way that theyre handling bans and how those bans affect the meta. Its not like OU just has fundamentally different pokemon than lower tiers, all tiers consist of the same type of pokemon (pivots, bulky attackers, sweepers, breakers, walls etc)
Ultimately what this just says to me is that lower tiers actually do a GOOD job of banning the pokemon that are broken with Tera. Not to shit on the council because theyre getting it from all ends constantly, but lower tiers dont have a problem with tera because they are quicker with the ban hammer popping pokemon that could be broken with it.
Tera is a type of mechanic where if it stays in the gen its going to result in pushing things from powerful to problematic and that doesnt just stop at the 18 or so pokemon we banned from OU. We will probably need to ban more. We should find they happy middle ground where the sweepers and breakers we have arent having their job done for them by simply clicking tera. Its why Im in favor of many more bans. Lower tiers do a good job at this and its why you dont see as many problems with tera down there.
Without tera it gets hard stopped by Tuskothy and Zamazenta-H so no it isn't broken without tera4/5 Its pretty centralizing and has one of the stupider pokemon abilities in how much you gain from it vs how much you have to put in to get the gain. Find myself needing many answers to this and thats not even discussing tera which its obv broken with. Broken without tera too tho.
Oh, I'm not criticizing the Council or tiering action or whatever. I'd attribute it most to the absurdity of new Pokemon with either insane BST, insanely specialized BST, or stuff that allows good Pokemon to go insane like unique overbearing moves or abilities. Despite being pro tera overall (our biggest failing was not getting preview :pensive:), it is hard to deny the volatility the mechanic brings, which especially compounds with all of these likely already banworthy Pokemon and those teetering on the edge.
Adding to hazards talk, I think there actually is hope in sight. While I'm ultimately on team Goldengo Guilty for being the more oppressing force for the meta as a whole (everyone talks about Mandibuzz but Scizor would also go hard as a defogger in the tier), I think even the likely upcoming suspect and ban of Gliscor alone will make things pretty bearable until the soft reset that DLC2 brings and its promise that tera will be revisited.
Tera Blast was (rightfully) included because it was involved with multiple other bans and the concept behind it allows for Pokemon to handpick their own counterplay. It isn’t at its peak right now perhaps, but it’s something we have discussed and believe should be monitored. We also are still monitoring and plan to ramp up discussion on Tera in general. It’s important we do our due diligence as always. I’d rather be too inclusive on surveys than not inclusive enough after all.
i stated this in my paragraph regarding the survey but i find that most of the big abusers of tera/TB are either banned (espathra, volcarona, regieleki) and likely wouldnt have been banned otherwise or theyre pokemon i feel should be banned anyway (kingambit). i completely understand why it was included but i do not find it to be as widespread of a problem to warrant any immediate action. unless DLC2 and its new tera type completely breaks the mechanic then i dont see why we should act on it, but keeping it in mind for the future is by no means a bad move.
Finch my issue with tera is that it is definitely more overbearing the higher the powerlevels are, and that is very apparent up here. I believe it should be suspected separately in every tier, because here and in Ubers its definitely overbearing for sure, but in lower power levels like NU and below it feels healthy. I propose this as an option so even if we end up banning tera, it should be suspected in every tier at once so they can decide on whether to keep it or not, as its not as overbearing in the lower power levels as many have said. Tera is a weird anomaly in that sense, as it feels fair at lower power levels but at higher ones like here and up in Ubers it feels super busted as a whole. So I think tera if suspected again should be suspected via a tier by tier basis, so if OU ends up banning it, the ban may not affect metagames that tera is not unhealthy in.
I think here in OU its 100% not healthy here, as its clear that the powerlevel is too high to keep tera healthy, and the amount of bans to keep it around feels a bit ridiculous at this point
Finch, would you and the council consider this as an option if possible? I feel like it would be a good solution to allow tera to not be an issue here or in Ubers but allow it to potentially stay through a suspect that a lower tier does, that way the lower tiers can have a choice to keep tera or not if OU decides to ban it, as tera seems like something that should be suspected on a tier by tier basis? What do you think of this idea finch?
luckie
unluckiest player
I see. ty for the clarification !!
I don't particularly like how quick we are to discuss Tera Blast as a ban option and categorically object to a quickban of it.
It as a move should not be seperated from Tera as a mechanic, both are intrisically linked and depend on each other, in that sense Tera Blast as a move is an extension of Tera as a mechanic.
If Tera Blast is to be suspected it should be in conjunction to Tera as a mechanic, doing otherwise doesn't listen to the majority opinion in terms of how we should deal with Terastalization as a mechanic, and it should be listed as one of the options for a potential future Tera suspect.
It as a move should not be seperated from Tera as a mechanic, both are intrisically linked and depend on each other, in that sense Tera Blast as a move is an extension of Tera as a mechanic.
If Tera Blast is to be suspected it should be in conjunction to Tera as a mechanic, doing otherwise doesn't listen to the majority opinion in terms of how we should deal with Terastalization as a mechanic, and it should be listed as one of the options for a potential future Tera suspect.
The difference here is that OU also doesn't affect the other metagames like Natdex, Monotype, or Balanced Hackmons but DOES affect the lower tiers. Any Bans that happen in OU automatically happens to lower tiers thus if we are banning something like tera we have to also think of how it affects the lower tiers.
This is not the case, any consideration for OU tiering is detached from any repercussions happening to lower tiers.
We are tiering for the OU metagame, not for UU,RU,NU,PU and ZU as well.
Thus why I think its a good idea to suspect tera in every tier separately at once, that way lower tiers can keep the mechanic if it is healthy in some of the lower tiers, that way tiers where it is healthy can keep the mechanic and OU can ban it without any repercussions on lower tiers
No, we don't. OU is the most important tier on Smogon. The lowers are fun extras, but our decisions should be centered around our fundamental tier. However these tiering decisions affect smaller tiers that splinter off of OU is irrelevant.
Hot take, I think Tera Blast could be considered more problematic than Terastilization itself, simply because it has potential to give mons a type coverage option that they would otherwise have absolutely no access to. It felt a bit weird to me that if a mon couldn't learn any ice type moves that they suddenly have access to ice Tera Blast, for example, and I think it makes sense for Tera Blast to be a monitored issue going forward. Sure it's a dead move sometimes, but in a format where team sheets are hidden Tera Blast can be a really nasty way for a mon to uno-reverse-card one of its counters.
(Edit: Finchinator added the reasoning for the Tera Blast inclusion on the survey as I was writing this, good to see it's being looked at as a big counterplay option.)
That said, I think neither Tera nor Tera Blast are banworthy given their respective opportunity costs. If anything I would advocate for open team sheets or at least open tera types to cut down on the surprise factor, but I don't feel even that is particularly necessary outside of a tournament setting.
(Edit: Finchinator added the reasoning for the Tera Blast inclusion on the survey as I was writing this, good to see it's being looked at as a big counterplay option.)
That said, I think neither Tera nor Tera Blast are banworthy given their respective opportunity costs. If anything I would advocate for open team sheets or at least open tera types to cut down on the surprise factor, but I don't feel even that is particularly necessary outside of a tournament setting.
I see it as the type of mon that yes will have answers but it will also still be such a powerful pokemon that it will end up warping the tier around its existence. I dont think its a healthy mon to do that with due to its extreme amount of power it can wrack up mainly passively, its all around defensive use, and its use as a set up sweeper.
+2 252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Great Tusk: 183-216 (49.3 - 58.2%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
This comes off as a particularly problematic calc against one of the few mons that shuts it down entirely. This also doesn't cover the fact that I see very little (no?) outright walls that can beat kingambit 1v1. Its troublesome that the only answers to this thing would still be 2 pokemon susceptible to being chipped throughout the game. On top of that I also want to look at Zamazenta-H at some point also being removed.
I am neutral on tera blast. I don't think it fixes most of the issues ppl have with tera, but its removal isn't going to make the meta worse, it just feels more like a nerf than anything.
Then again if you're pro tera ban I think it's a smart thing to vote on. Remove it, and if you're correct on tera the negative effects on it should still be very present which gives more arguments on a tera ban. If the negative effects leave and you were wrong, you still get a better meta. win win imo
Then again if you're pro tera ban I think it's a smart thing to vote on. Remove it, and if you're correct on tera the negative effects on it should still be very present which gives more arguments on a tera ban. If the negative effects leave and you were wrong, you still get a better meta. win win imo
You didn't mention the new 19th Tera Type lol
Disastrous idea, viability is completely different in a Tera meta vs a Teraless meta, this would fundamentally destroy usage based tiering if a Pokémon could Tera in one tier but not another. We need to understand that splinter tiers are not a priority in considering tiering action for our fundamental tier.
Banning Tera Blast is missing the forest for the trees. Tera Blast is one of many ways that Pokémon can use Tera uncompetitively. The "concept behind it [that] allows for Pokemon to handpick their own counterplay" is the entire Tera mechanic itself, not just Tera Blast.
The whole tiering philosophy we've used so far is that every user of a move needs to be uncompetitive to some degree if we want to ban that move (Shed Tail vs. Rage Fist). To claim that Tera Blast is uncompetitive, you have to prove that every single Pokémon that can learn Tera Blast--which is all of them--is some level of uncompetitive. And perhaps they are. But the very act of using Tera Blast in a game-breaking way requires that you click the Tera button. They are inseparable and should not be treated separably from a tiering perspective.
As long as we maintain Tera as a mechanic in our metagame we will be forced to play wack-a-mole with every new abuser that rises to the surface. It's insane to me that the council could look at the state of OU and think that Tera Blast is one of the most pressing issues. Get the worst Tera abusers out first, get a handle of the hazards situation, and then we can talk about what to do about Terastilization long-term.
(edit, subject-verb agreement lol)
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TCTphantom
formerly MX42
5/5 | 
4/5 : I think these two are evenly linked in why they are problematic, Its just a chicken and the egg situation. Would Gliscor be as annoying if Gholdengo made hazard counterplay more reasonable? Would Gholdengo be an issue if Gliscor wasn't the ultimate spiker? Both are valid questions. Personally, while I think both are borderline problematic, I think Ghold is the more pressing issue. It has been an issue in the background in the past due to how it has been warping the hazard game since day one. I feel like even if Gliscor is super dumb, Ghold is what pushes it over the edge. Meanwhile, I think even without Gliscor, Gholdengo would still be an on the radar mon. What happens when teams just move on to other spike setters like Hamurott or Waterpon for example? Or fat setters like Tankchomp? I think Gholdengo is the greater of two evils and should be looked at first and foremost.I know this would be a herculean task, but I would love a double suspect ladder with one banned on each. It would be cool to see which one was the more problematic one. Obviously, I am not expecting this to happen: it would be a ton of work and one ladder always ends up suffering when we do double ladder suspects. I just think it would be a neat experiment.
4/5. The more things change, the more things stay the same. Despite how much the meta has shifted and mons have come and gone, Kingambit with Tera in the back is still a top 3 wincon at worst. Gambit is the ultimate one size fits all wincon, which is super centralizng. Losing to Gambit picking the right Tera is insanely frustrating. Tera Flying Gambit to dodge its weaknesses or Tera Fairy Gambit to bop its few checks is still gross as can be. The main reason it isnt higher is because I would prefer a Tera Blast test or fixing the hazards game first.
: 3/5 Its a dumb set up sweeper and probably the most probleamtic Tera Abuser in the tier besides Kingambit. I think its super dumb, but it just isnt as much of a priority to me. I think Double Dance and Tail Glow both are silly, but both feel like they aren't the highest priority.
3/5. I gave Sneasler a similar score to what I gave Roaring Moon last time for similar reasons. Sneasler is a super dumb wincon than is super oppressive. Throw in Dire Claw and you have a frustrating mon to play against in most situations. It's a negativity bias mon: I will remember the games where Dire Claw was obscenely dumb more than the games where it failed to sweep.
1/5. Ill be honest, I think this thing is a symptom of our meta, not the cause. Encore sets and Spikes sets are only as scary as they are due to the hazards game. This thing is partially on as many teams as it is due to it being a great manaphy check in a pinch. We also have way more things that IMO are a priority to test than Waterpon. I feel like action on it right now would be like if we acted on Hamurott over Kingambit in HOME. Is it on the radar? Sure, but we have way bigger fish to fry.Tera Blast: 4/5. I think this is one of the few consensus picks for a Tera action we could pursue. Tera Blast is insane in the way it pushes Tera as a mechanic. Just for example, Tera Volc wouldnt be nearly as scary if it didnt have Tera Blast to punch through checks. This move is just insanely dumb and is one of the biggest reasons Tera is as polarizing as it is.
As for the people who think you need to only go after Tera, what is the harm of banning Tera Blast preemptively? If anything, it would make the calls to ban Tera louder if it doesn't fix things. At worst, Tera is still a problem and we look into going after that. With how we are handling suspects more aggressively, this isn't a bad idea as a short term fix towards Tera. I think Tera discourse is painful, but it has basically boiled down to 3 groups: hard ban, no action, and some form of restriction. I am going to be honest, I do not think even in this climate a hard ban on Tera would pass. If you want action on Tera, we need to show that restricting it isnt the answer.
Restricting Tera first is a good call if you want action on the mechanic. If it doesnt do enough, the hand to ban it gets stronger. If restricting it isnt popular enough, then I doubt a hard ban passes. I see this as a very worthwhile course of action.
Banning Tera Blast doesn't solve the other half of the equation, the defensive Teras. Water/Fairy Garg doesn't use Tera Blast for example to simply become a better wall.
What respective opportunity cost? It's a free ace in the hole if you want to sweep/set up, wall, or be used as a counter. You don't use up a item slot, any pokemon can do it (unlike megas for comparison), and you get to keep the surprise factor (similar to Z moves, but of course without the item slot taken up).
TCTphantom
formerly MX42
I mean, it doesn't fix defensive Tera. No one is saying it does. What it does though is do *something*. If you want to restrict Tera in some way/shape/form or make the case that Tera as a whole is more banworthy for its defensive aspects, there is no downside to kicking Tera Blast to the curve.
Let's go with the following three scenarios.
- Tera Blast being gone makes Tera notably worse. This is a pretty big win if this happens. Gambit gets a nerf and we can drop Volc and Regiekei at least to boot. Both back would potentially help ease the bleeding of the meta at least a bit. Even without that, it would be a good future proofing method since we do know that Tera Blast can break set up mons.
- Tera Blast doesnt do enough or anything. If this is the case, we can just look at Tera itself down the line.
- Tera Blast doesn't have enough support for a test. If this doesn't I think it will be harder to test Tera itself. I think its important to note that while action on Tera is a majority opinion, a hard ban on Tera is not. We need to focus on consensus building compromises first. If Tera Blast doesn't have enough support and we look at Tera, there is a good chance it stays.
I think that if you want action on Tera at all or you want to keep Tera in the tier, Tera Blast is an obvious candidate to look into as a compromise pick.
I agree but I don’t see these as mutually exclusive. Tera is uncompetitive and makes this Gen unserious. Tera Blast is uncompetitive and its use is unserious. I’m fine with banning whatever is on the table. Tera is a bad joke at this point and I think a big reason why it persists is the defensive use; it allows to check offensive Tera abusers getting out of hand. This is the broken vs. broken meta. No end is in sight...
I highlight again that I am very pro-Ban on the Terastal mechanic, but I ask those of you who are against a Tera Blast ban to consider that an outright ban on Tera is not happening until you can convince fencesitters who want to try a restriction on Tera before a complete ban on the mechanic as this group needs to be sufficiently appeased before we can axe Terastal. If you never give this camp a chance to try out a restriction, the likelihood of an outright ban is just quite low. Please see the bigger picture in that a black-and-white view often prevents progress even in real world settings.
Similarly, some pro-Tera players have an interest in banning Tera Blast because banning Tera Blast will not change the spirit of the mechanic, would result in Volcarona, Espathra (broken with Tera Blast Fighting to break Steel and Dark-type Pokemon), Regieleki, and Kingambit being nerfed, relieving teambuilder constraints to an extent when considering all the other threats with niche or very niche Tera Blast sets such as Iron Moth, Sneasler, Dragonite, Enamorus, Landorus-Therian, Polteageist, Lilligant-Hisui, Thundurus-Therian, Sandy Shocks, and Moltres-Galar.
Similarly, some pro-Tera players have an interest in banning Tera Blast because banning Tera Blast will not change the spirit of the mechanic, would result in Volcarona, Espathra (broken with Tera Blast Fighting to break Steel and Dark-type Pokemon), Regieleki, and Kingambit being nerfed, relieving teambuilder constraints to an extent when considering all the other threats with niche or very niche Tera Blast sets such as Iron Moth, Sneasler, Dragonite, Enamorus, Landorus-Therian, Polteageist, Lilligant-Hisui, Thundurus-Therian, Sandy Shocks, and Moltres-Galar.
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I just want to state that this is entirely false. It’s just that it cannot be a single user — once a fair portion (generally multiple, but dependent on distribution) are deemed broken directly because of a move, it can be fair game.
Shed Tail and Rage Fist were just one user. Your description isn’t correct.
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