Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]

[Return to Zero]

I'm not going to say Tera doesn't have issues that should be left completely unaddressed, but I really hate the argument that there's luck involved with its use. (Fuck Gen 6 Aegislash/King's Shield discourse for continuing to poison this well btw.) Your opponent is not a wild Pokémon AI that is randomly selecting their moves every turn. They don't flip a coin to determine whether or not to Tera. They made a decision in the builder and continue to make decisions during a match. Just because you cannot control your opponent or read their mind and lack some information does not mean you're in a luck-based situation. You are at best complaining about bad matchups or risk management, which are things you just have to deal with in any competitive game.

I actually agree, albeit to an extent. Tera isn't a blind roulette wheel that's beyond prediction, but I don't think it's as simple as "bad matchups" either. The decisions made in the builder are simply too far-reaching for my liking. Mons that can run multiple Tera types that aren't set or team dependent exist. You can make inferences based on the opponent's team structure or if they play their hand early and reveal the set first, but there simply is just no knowing for sure what Tera will do in that matchup. You don't know when it will be used, which one of 6 mons is going to use it, what type it will be, if that type will be something standard and generally effective or if it's one meant to punish a check after luring it, so on. Hell, the reason Volcarona and (to a lesser extent but it was still a considerable part) Espathra were banned was because they had 3-4 generally viable Tera types to choose from that didn't require any specific set or team, and one or two wrong turns of prediction to let them set up handed them the game.

You are right in that the point of the game is to make good decisions based on limited information, and those decisions are also made in the builder before the match. No team can cover every situation. What I think you're wrong about is what amount of information that can be withheld is acceptable. The decisions the opponent makes in the builder in the match are not random, but when you face them, not knowing anything about their Tera type or when they'll decide to pop it, it gets pretty close to feeling like it. I think it's kinda reductive to look at a mechanic as broad, powerful, and easy to use as Tera and go "just get better at matchups". There is a limit on how much of Tera you can reasonably predict, one with a lower ceiling than other controversial mechanics like Z-Moves.

Also, King's Shield has nothing to do with luck, it's just the opposite version of predicting and outplaying Sucker Punch, which I would hope I have at least made a case for not being the same kind of "prediction" as guessing Tera types and timing.

 

[Karxrida]

You are right in that the point of the game is to make good decisions based on limited information, and those decisions are also made in the builder before the match. No team can cover every situation. What I think you're wrong about is what amount of information that can be withheld is acceptable. The decisions the opponent makes in the builder in the match are not random, but when you face them, not knowing anything about their Tera type or when they'll decide to pop it, it gets pretty close to feeling like it. I think it's kinda reductive to look at a mechanic as broad, powerful, and easy to use as Tera and go "just get better at matchups". There is a limit on how much of Tera you can reasonably predict, one with a lower ceiling than other controversial mechanics like Z-Moves.

This is why I'd be fine with at least trying Tera Preview, especially since it was used by GF and Sleep Clause is based on something GF hasn't enforced in 15+ years. This removes the blindness element without taking away the skill involved with proper timing or knowing when to Tera an off-pick. Plus sometimes giving your opponent information can be beneficial to bait them and subtly influence their gameplan.

Also, King's Shield has nothing to do with luck, it's just the opposite version of predicting and outplaying Sucker Punch, which I would hope I have at least made a case for not being the same kind of "prediction" as guessing Tera types and timing.

I know, I'm just remember those dumb 50/50 arguments and people keep using similar ones in Tera discussions. It's grating as hell.

 

[Hiddenfreezer]

Too many people rely on Hisuian Samurott as a lead. I want to punish it everytime and every set (Focus Sash Scarf etc.)

Any good suggestions?

 

[Contrary Servine]

Too many people rely on Hisuian Samurott as a lead. I want to punish it everytime and every set (Focus Sash Scarf etc.)

Any good suggestions?

I quite like Breloom as an anti-Samurott-H lead. Life Orb Mach Punch is a guaranteed OHKO, or you can use Bullet Seed to KO through Sash. Alternatively just predict the switch and Spore.

 

[ant4456]

Tera Blast is, at most, one quarter of the actual issue with Tera. Banning it would not address the other problems, like forcing guessing games that come down completely to chance and disproportionate rewards for each side for guessing right or wrong. "Giving Dragapult Shadow Claw" is a complete non-issue and the best Tera abusers are the ones who use it defensively. The biggest benefit you can get from Tera is suddenly resisting or being immune to the attacks of what were formerly your checks. And this won't affect other big things like getting double STAB, getting STAB on a secondary attack typing you already have moves for, potential status immunity, that sort of thing.

I really do not understand how banning Tera Blast could be a middle ground compromise everyone can agree on. It's a very small concession that in practice only slightly changes how Tera is used and how good it is. Personally, I think the fact that no one can come up with an actual middle ground compromise everyone is okay with speaks to how unwieldy and unbalanced Tera is, and that banning it all or nothing is the only play now.

Anti Tera stop trying to gaslight the community into thinking we must do only a binary option poll next Suspect Test challenge (impossible)

 

[Hiddenfreezer]

I quite like Breloom as an anti-Samurott-H lead. Life Orb Mach Punch is a guaranteed OHKO, or you can use Bullet Seed to KO through Sash. Alternatively just predict the switch and Spore.

Breloom is slower but Dice + Bullet Seed is 200 IQ as a solution.
Also, I used the wrong thread, whoops.

I see a lot anti tera posts here and I have to ask one thing: Do you people seriously think that without tera the top mons like Gholdengo, Tusk and stuff like that would not exist? I am confused. I think literally nothing would change regarding pokemon usage and team builds.

 

[Srn]

I see a lot anti tera posts here and I have to ask one thing: Do you people seriously think that without tera the top mons like Gholdengo, Tusk and stuff like that would not exist? I am confused. I think literally nothing would change regarding pokemon usage and team builds.

A lot of top mons are gonna stay on top no doubt. Gholdengo and Great tusk are key players in the hazard game which becomes even more important if tera goes. But pokemon usage and teambuilds would definitely change. You can't just slap tera water on your tusk/glowking and call the rain matchup covered now, you need a real water resist. Kingambit will not be terrorizing teams simply from the threat of tera anymore, u pack a sturdy fighting type and you're all set. Obviously this is all speculation, but yes I think things would change a lot.

 

[Crimson Chris]

Wondering about what's better. Would you go Razor Shell or Aqua Cutter or are both viable depending on what you prefer? Also, If you wanted to do a mixed set for , what nature would you give him?



Still think this is a fun mon. Rare for us to get a Rock type with Rock Head that can spam Head Smash. Add onto the fact that it has a free 120 BP fire move (prolly really strong on sun teams) and has the best physical electric move in Wild Charge as it ignores the dumb recoil stipulation with Rock Head (still don't understand why they gave it recoil). And add Extremespeed. I feel like while it may not be OU, it could be an underrated gem of a mon.



Interested in what moveset you'd give this mon. Victory Dance and Leaf Blade make sense. However, what else? Also I feel like H-Liligant truly shines in a sun team and not using Hustle.



Besides the obvious Facade and Headlong Rush/Earthquake combo. Would you give it Bulk up? What other moves are generally considered for Ursaluna.

Thinking of starting to play showdown in the the near future and these are all mons I am considering using.

 

[Red Raven]

Wondering about what's better. Would you go Razor Shell or Aqua Cutter or are both viable depending on what you prefer?

Aqua cutter. Remember, if it's not 100% accurate, it is 50% accurate

 

[Athyestic]

Interested in what moveset you'd give this mon. Victory Dance and Leaf Blade make sense. However, what else? Also I feel like H-Liligant truly shines in a sun team and not using Hustle.

For Hisuigant the standard is Victory Dance/Sleep Powder/CC/Tera Blast Ghost @ Leftovers, on Sun w Chloro or on Screens HO with Hustle. I personally like to do Tera Grass LO (VD/CC/Spinner/Leaf Blade) but I’m a masochist so

Besides the obvious Facade and Headlong Rush/Earthquake combo. Would you give it Bulk up? What other moves are generally considered for Ursaluna.

People run Swords Dance for staggering power (like, ohko Corv w Facade power), Crunch for Balloon Gholdengo and other ghost types, and Trailblaze is a niche option.

 

[LoseToRU?]

I'm not sure where the general public stands but I personally believe outright banning tera would be a grave, long-term mistake. The current meta is very fun yet competitive. Whether tera needs to be modified (showing types for ex) will be seen but should definitely remain in some form regardless. I don't expect action soon or anything I just wanted to dish out some positivity in case it was lacking.

Keep on gaming, gamers

Well, the last survey indicates the general public doesn't really find the meta to be that fun, and definitely not competitive or balanced.

Maybe it's a confirmation bias, but OU chat is constantly saying tera is terrible and is ruining the meta.

Feel free to ask OU chat about tera any time of the day, on ur main or alt, and see what happens- if you're curious.

facts

from the games i've played on high ladder so far, the current metagame is very skill expressive outside of zapdos. you need to play a near-perfect game a lot of the time because tera adds a punishing, extra layer of strategic depth. i agree an outright ban would be a mistake, and i'd even go as far to say a restriction is unnecessary as well.

i fail to see what team preview accomplishes outside of being able to game-plan for certain defensive tera users such as tera-steel iron valiant or tera-flying kingambit a bit better. on the contrary, a team preview restriction would increase the amount of pure 50/50's regarding the mechanic, which i rarely came across to begin with, and players abusing the system by using X tera-type without expected Y move. another thing i dislike about this restriction is it removes the concept of lures from play. having to burn your tera to surprise kill something has an opportunity cost as it requires you to use your best trump card. if my opponent can see my dragapult is tera-fighting in advance, the idea of being able to lure kingambit goes out the window since a crazy tera-type like that implies having tera blast too. this is pretty lame in my opinion as it limits your options in the team builder; there's no point in running a lure set if your opponent can see it coming, right? all of the proposed restrictions are honestly just compromises with the "outright ban" playerbase who will continue to bitch about the mechanic even if said restriction happens. i'm not interested in compromising.

i don't really talk about tera too much because (a) we won the vote :] & (b) there's no point arguing with a vocal minority who are adamant on outright banning it. they've already made up their mind and some of the toxic tera discourse on prior pages can attest to this. overall my rationale is i don't see any reason to delete or restrict a mechanic that is already perfectly competitive and skill expressive to begin with. you are free to disagree with this statement, and i am open to answering the "outright ban" side's concerns if they can provide high ladder / tournament replays to back up their points. appreciate you.

Preview would make the problem worse, we can agree on that.

The suspect you're talking about, 205 "Action" votes- 59.25% of the suspect voters wanted something to be done about Tera.

You can say "Outright Ban" is a vocal minority, and that was true then- I won't reiterate the differences between January 4th, 2022, to now, almost half a year later- nor the infamous circumstances around the vote.

With that said, nearly 60% of the voters felt that tera in it's current form needs to be looked at, you can take from that whatever you want.
One of my main takeaways from this is that Preview will happen when we have another suspect, at the very least.

The reasons you love tera, as expressed here, are the reasons I feel tera is broken.

Gambit should never fear switching into a physical Pult.

A healthy Gambit should only fear the U-Turn, and mostly for the momentum.

The way mons are set up, the typings, the movepools, the stats, all point to Gambit being a safe switch in.

In a more competitive meta, the play is U-Turn into a mon that was designed to handle the Gambit that just came in.
However, you find it enjoyable to flip everything we know about mons on its head and blow past this check.

Z-moves allowed you to muscle through checks, but it was a one time use, required an item slot, and required a move in that mons movepool to be based off of- y'know, balanced as a gimmick like this could be.

There's a reason Pult doesn't have any attacks to hit Dark for SE, it's called balancing a mon.
GF takes a lot of time and care into designing balanced mons- there's a reason why Pult doesn't have Close Combat.

No one likes Scald- no one likes the feeling of not being able to switch in your Grass/Dragon mon into a Water attack.
Tera is that annoyance on steroids.

Can you provide more info on what you mean by needing high ladder/tour play of tera being broken?

For one, this is subjective, we can both look at the same match, and I'll say "See how bullshit that was?" and you'll say "Na they should have X on turn Y or known this or that." and we could have that convo for hours.

So instead, would you mind taking a look at Srn's initial post and picking some of those points to refute, thank you in advance bro.

----

Both of you are highly skilled, and pro-tera, so I have a few quick questions:

1) Is there a limit to how many mons get banned due to tera for you to change your mind?

2) Why is having less mons and thus less options better than having more mons, and more options?

3) What are the benefits of not being to comfortably attack the mon in front of you, instead of the mon it might become?

4) Are you at all curious what SV OU would look like without tera?

-
I want to ask more detailed orientated questions, but we can save that for the tera suspect thread, and I said quick questions lol.
-

Side note, aka "too be fair" section of this post:

Tera is barely surprising until about 1900elo.
Before that, it's really not that difficult to know that the Sneas, Moon, Gold, Ceru, etc are going to tera vs my Tusk.

Tera can often cancel itself out, as in E-Nite vs Ghost/Steel Val.

Tera is far from mindless, just putting it here for the record that skill is needed more often than not.

Tera is more of a stain on the meta than a deal-breaker. It's something I could definitely live with, but I still enjoy debate as mental exercise for fun. That said, I would like to see SV OU be played without tera, so I could have more data on which meta would be better.
-
Main reasons I don't like Tera:

• Too much variance (Srn's post outlies this)
• Losing mons (RIP Leki, you could have been spinning and setting screens, king)
• Having to tech chase new Teras (Fighting Pult? Fucking hell bro)
• Insane power boost Tera into same type gives. (Dark glasses Gambit is a clean 2hko on Dozo)
• MU fishing issues (There are more auto-lose MU this gen than ever. If you don't have something specific for some of these tera sets, gg)
• Making the meta split between extreme HO or fat balance that can handle extreme HO
• Ghost Tera spin blocking makes the already difficult hazard situation even worse, forcing HDB to be mandatory.
• Forced 50/50's (Not super often, but does occur)
• The increase of skill gap and the pain it causes casuals
• Not being able to consistently revenge kill mons we normally would be able to
• The strain Tera puts on team building
• The issues Tera causes end game mapping
• Mons doing things they weren't designed to do

I find Tera to be an incredibly half-baked concept, and GF did not consider for a moment how it would affect 6v6 Singles.
It could have been balanced if tera required an item slot, you lose your old STAB boosts, and the mon reverted back to it's old type at switch out- but that's just my opinion.
This gen already has an identify with Paradox mons, Quark Drive, and Booster Energy.
I also think Tera is the cause for the historically low survey scores.

Anyway, there's a reason we're going to have another suspect.
If it truly was a small minority of people who don't think Tera is healthy nor competitive in it's current form, then we wouldn't have one.
Yet, even when hype was at it's peak, over half of the voters thought Tera in its current form is too much, and again, a lot has changed since then.

I'm not married to the idea of Tera being the worst thing ever, but any extra layer of skill or added fun does not outweigh all the above issues I've posted. Any good tera does to the meta is not close to the harm it causes, but that's just my opinion.

 

[polarbearmafia]

A couple of underrated bulky threats in the current meta:

The current state of SV OU is absolutley crazy, with tera types vastly expanding the pool of viable pokemon. There are some mons that are already turning into format staples, like tera flying kingambit and great tusk. Because the meta is young and everyone is playing with flashy toys, fast offensive teams are ruling the day. This happens at the beginning of every gen. But eventually, once defensive counterplay is better established, bulkier teams start to become more popular. I love playing bulky offense and balance teams, and I've been having a lot of success with them even in the chaotic offensive environment of the current OU. There are underrated threats that, with the right tera type or some offbeat sets, become powerful picks that could alter the current meta.

(June OU usage update)

Threat #1: Physical Tank Skeledirge
Skeledirge @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Unaware
Tera Type: Grass or Dark
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Def
Serious Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Slack Off
- Earth Power or Shadow Ball
- Torch Song
- Tera Blast

You might be thinking, why is Skeledirge such a huge threat in the current OU? The short answer: role compression. Skeledirge's typing and natural bulk gives it great matchups into the non-ghost or water top tier special attackers by usage such as Iron Valiant (#3), Hattrene (#10), Volcarona (#11), Iron Moth (#12), and the new fairy type Enamorus variants, while investing into physical bulk with unaware lets Skeledirge defensivley and offensivley check set up sweepers that can only threaten super effective damage without STAB such as Dragonite (#6) and Baxcalibur (#7). Equipping Skeledrige with Tera Grass lets it flip the matchup chart against ground and water types while creating a solid matchup into physical dark types, turning top tier Pokemon like Great Tusk (#1) and Kingambit (#2) into setup fodder. Equipping Skeledirge with Tera Dark instead turns ghost and dark types like Gholdengo (#3) and Dragapult (#5) into setup fodder. Having two viable tera types that suit different team's defensive needs makes this set unpredictable even if it becomes popular. In the current OU Skeledirge will usually be able to sweep half of a team without tera and the other half with tera, making this Skeledrige set incredibly flexible and packing tons of offensive and defensive utility, similar to how people use Kingambit. While Skeledirge already has good usage at just under 10%, I genuinely believe that Skeledirge can become a tier staple with over 20% usage if this set becomes more popular, filling a role similar to kingambit while functioning as a great partner and answer to it.


Threat #2: Physically Defensive Ursaluna
Ursaluna @ Flame Orb or Assault Vest
Ability: Guts
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Facade / Body Slam
- Earthquake
- Shadow Claw
- Stone Edge / Rock Slide / Thunder Punch

Currently, Ursaluna is seen on trick room teams as an offensive threat. In doubles that's a great niche, in singles... not so much. However Ursaluna has untapped potential defensively. On the physical side, Ursaluna is bulky. VERY bulky. Survive-a-banded-Urshifu-close-combat bulky. And even uninvested in attack, without guts active, Ursaluna hits quite hard and threatens to 2hit KO much of the tier. On the special side, with an assault vest Ursaluna becomes quite difficult to take down as well, easily surviving hits like a specs Gholdengo make it Rain and threatening a KO in return. Having a normal typing is incredibly valuable because of the powerful ghost types in OU such as Gholdengo (#3), Dragapult (#6), and Skeledirge (#26) spamming shadowball and hex everywhere. Ursaluna is also uniquely positioned to check the willow-wisp-spam in the tier because of guts and good matchups into Rotom Wash (#18) as well as ghost and fire types. Ursaluna's bulk, power, unique ability, and serviceable defensive typing give it a great niche in OU that should give Ursaluna higher usage than the 3.5% it currently sees.

 

[Magcargo]

facts

from the games i've played on high ladder so far, the current metagame is very skill expressive outside of zapdos. you need to play a near-perfect game a lot of the time because tera adds a punishing, extra layer of strategic depth. i agree an outright ban would be a mistake, and i'd even go as far to say a restriction is unnecessary as well.

i fail to see what team preview accomplishes outside of being able to game-plan for certain defensive tera users such as tera-steel iron valiant or tera-flying kingambit a bit better. on the contrary, a team preview restriction would increase the amount of pure 50/50's regarding the mechanic, which i rarely came across to begin with, and players abusing the system by using X tera-type without expected Y move. another thing i dislike about this restriction is it removes the concept of lures from play. having to burn your tera to surprise kill something has an opportunity cost as it requires you to use your best trump card. if my opponent can see my dragapult is tera-fighting in advance, the idea of being able to lure kingambit goes out the window since a crazy tera-type like that implies having tera blast too. this is pretty lame in my opinion as it limits your options in the team builder; there's no point in running a lure set if your opponent can see it coming, right? all of the proposed restrictions are honestly just compromises with the "outright ban" playerbase who will continue to bitch about the mechanic even if said restriction happens. i'm not interested in compromising.

i don't really talk about tera too much because (a) we won the vote :] & (b) there's no point arguing with a vocal minority who are adamant on outright banning it. they've already made up their mind and some of the toxic tera discourse on prior pages can attest to this. overall my rationale is i don't see any reason to delete or restrict a mechanic that is already perfectly competitive and skill expressive to begin with. you are free to disagree with this statement, and i am open to answering the "outright ban" side's concerns if they can provide high ladder / tournament replays to back up their points. appreciate you.

Yeah, Tera preview is mostly a compromise that I am sure anti-Tera players would not like. The idea was that stuff like Dragapult wouldn't get punished for using CB D-Darts when facing random Tera Fairy mons (i.e. Quaquaval, Poltergeist, Baxcalibur) since there is no way of knowing they are tera Fairy and you can lose 2 turns to them potentially setting up. However, perhaps the issue is that I am relying on CB DDarts in the first place while all these pokemon are running Tera Fairy. Furthermore, it has additional ramifications as you mentioned, so it may not be the perfect comprise.

Tera Blast ban I think is more on the table since a big issue many anti tera players have is that Regieleki, Volcarona, etc. "Needed to be banned" because they could beat their counters with Tera where Tera Blast specifically giving these Pokemon coverage they didn't have access to before. Regieleki would be banned if it got Ice Beam anyways & the council jumped the gun on Volc imo. However, so far, it is evident that players do not want this compromise either

The argument about Variance is bullshit imo. This has been a thing every gen. Teams will naturally have difficult vs certain threats more than others. Last gen, making a team not weak to Shell Smash Blastoise / Rain was difficult for me and these teams would normally clean my clocks. Random coverage moves on Pokemon like Flamethrower Dragonite would completely catch me off guard, as would random scarfers that would one-shot my Pult / Zeraora. Those Psyspam teams last gen would wipe the floor with me in most matches, all because of the stupid Teapot. What I find interesting is that this stuff hasn't really changed. Grass Knot Gambit and Ice Spinner Tusk will KO my standard checks to them most games. I still have to play conservatively vs random Scarfers like Tatsugiri, Gardevoir, etc.. Rain teams & psyspam teamscan still be annoying to face. Outside of maybe Psyspam, I have found that Tera has largely increased the pool of counter-play for things like this, whether it be increasing the power of priority, granting an additional resistance, to certain Pokemon (specifically random scarfers & Rain sweepers), etc. I find it funny that losing to random Scarfers or Ice Spinner Tusk is considered a skill issue but losing to random Teras is considered variance. But who am I to question what others think.

 

[furyofyuriy]

Too many people rely on Hisuian Samurott as a lead. I want to punish it everytime and every set (Focus Sash Scarf etc.)

Any good suggestions?

Good suggestion... I am not sure this is it. However I have been experimenting with a Lucario set to somewhat deter Ceaseless Edge spam.

Lucario @ Punching Glove
Ability: Justified
Tera Type: Normal/Steel/Ice
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Speed
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Ice Punch
- Bullet Punch
- Extreme Speed/Earthquake

This was kinda make take of "Urisfu at home". The idea of this set is to switch in on H-Sam early game for a Justified Boost of +1 (ideally via a damaging pivot like Volt switch/U turn to break potential sash leads) or save it for Gambit in late game.

+1 252 Atk Punching Glove Lucario Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Great Tusk: 192-226 (51.7 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (after rocks)
252 Atk Punching Glove Lucario Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-Therian: 248-296 (64.9 - 77.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

I don't claim that this set is good, however Lucario has an amazing STAB combo in this meta imo with a multitude of priority moves at it's disposal. If Landorus switches in to drop Lucario's attack back to neutral then it can still do some major damage and Lucario is naturally faster than Great Tusk. Earthquake is also a tech so that way Gholdengo doesn't hard wall you.

In terms of Tera, I don't often Tera Lucario, however Normal is the way to go if your running E-speed. If Earthquake is ran instead than the second slot is based on team needs. I think boosted Bullet Punch from Tera Steel is much apprciated, however I have had some funny interactions with opponents using Chilling Reception and then getting the Snow Defense boost.

 

[viivian]

I'm not sure where the general public stands but I personally believe outright banning tera would be a grave, long-term mistake. The current meta is very fun yet competitive. Whether tera needs to be modified (showing types for ex) will be seen but should definitely remain in some form regardless. I don't expect action soon or anything I just wanted to dish out some positivity in case it was lacking.

Keep on gaming, gamers

i'm not crazy good at the game so while i don't have as much of a say on this as i'd like to, i still want to give my piece on terastallization as it is right now

i'd like to start off by saying i completely agree with this. giving pokemon the option to tera is genuinely such a massive boon and has so many different applications to consider in teambuilding. some pokemon can tera into a defensive type to improve their lackluster base typing. others can tera into their own STAB type to get some much-needed extra damage on opposing walls. and others can tera into a priority or coverage move so that they can rip past certain checks with more ease. it's quite interesting how many pokemon use so many different tera types for different purposes so i think it's important we preserve this mechanic, at least for the time being

with all of that being said, i think the overall best course of action would be to reveal tera types at team preview (which is actually something VGC tournaments do with open sheets), allowing you to keep the surprise factor of when you're going to tera but still giving your opponent leeway to play around it. not something everyone can agree on, especially those against terastallization, but it's definitely the safest option to go for in regards to the mechanic. so keep tera, but limit the guessing games to a degree. but if it stays with no restrictions then i'd still be content with the result

on a slightly related note, i'm a bit torn on tera blast. on one hand, certain pokemon would gain much less of a benefit from tera due to losing much-needed coverage (articuno-G, for instance, needs it) and would fall off greatly in viability after losing the option to break certain checks, but on the other hand, some of these pokemon are genuinely game-breaking with it and banning the move would make them significantly more manageable (regieleki and, to a lesser extent, espathra). so not sure on what to do with the move but i do think that at the very least it deserves a suspect later down the line, or at least after tera as a whole recieves one

 

[Magcargo]

Good suggestion... I am not sure this is it. However I have been experimenting with a Lucario set to somewhat deter Ceaseless Edge spam.

Lucario @ Punching Glove
Ability: Justified
Tera Type: Normal/Steel/Ice
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Speed
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Ice Punch
- Bullet Punch
- Extreme Speed/Earthquake

This was kinda make take of "Urisfu at home". The idea of this set is to switch in on H-Sam early game for a Justified Boost of +1 (ideally via a damaging pivot like Volt switch/U turn to break potential sash leads) or save it for Gambit in late game.

+1 252 Atk Punching Glove Lucario Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Great Tusk: 192-226 (51.7 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (after rocks)
252 Atk Punching Glove Lucario Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-Therian: 248-296 (64.9 - 77.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

I don't claim that this set is good, however Lucario has an amazing STAB combo in this meta imo with a multitude of priority moves at it's disposal. If Landorus switches in to drop Lucario's attack back to neutral then it can still do some major damage and Lucario is naturally faster than Great Tusk. Earthquake is also a tech so that way Gholdengo doesn't hard wall you.

In terms of Tera, I don't often Tera Lucario, however Normal is the way to go if your running E-speed. If Earthquake is ran instead than the second slot is based on team needs. I think boosted Bullet Punch from Tera Steel is much apprciated, however I have had some funny interactions with opponents using Chilling Reception and then getting the Snow Defense boost.

Interesting set. I think I'd personally like Inner Focus a bit more to deter Lando-T from switching in but not all teams run Lando-T, so I also see the appeal for Justifed.

I could actually see Lucario being passable in this meta since SD boosted Tera Normal Espeed seems like a strong tool and it's STAB combo is also good w/ high BP moves to break through certain walls like Corv + has solid neutral coverage. Of course, the bulk is really really bad so setting up might be impossible & it's MU vs Gholdengo / Dragapult is not great either. Seems like it could be good in a core with Gambit, but Dragonite may be the better Extreme Speeder to pair with Gambit due to its better type synergy.

 

[LoseToRU?]

When I said u can usually guess Tera below 1900 I meant it.

But I hit 1950 and my next two battles went as follows:

TR team, my Gambit in vs a 40% Cress-everything else in range to die
Played around TR and made good doubles.
I click Iron Head expecting a Tera Fairy, the only tera I've ever seen on a Cress.
Cress Teras into Fighting, outspeeds and OHKOs w Tera Blast

Next game, vs balance
Clod switches into my Enam Earth Power, takes 37%
I Tera Ground, it takes 55%, forced to spam recover.
Once Clod goes, Iron Moth goes brazy and if doesn't somehow outright sweep it punches huges holes, basically gg
Clod Teras into Bug and eats the EP, and now I can't even send in my BU Tusk, another wincon, to scare it out cuz it resists CC and Headlong and will Toxic.

I play quite a bit cuz I play at work, and I play at high ladder, and I've literally never seen either of these two Tera types.
I'm now back at 1900.

What info was I supposed to go off of to guess this shit?
What data was I supposed to extrapolate in these games?

You can only guess the teras based off of past games and current trends, but if you've never seen one before...

So yeah, we need Tera Preview, at least.

This was just ladder bullshit, but can you imagine if this was a Smogon Tour game?
They have to play games in the 3 most recent metas.
So that's at least 2 more years of gen 9, and we'll say 3 year life cycles for gen 10 and 11
That means for the next 8 years, Smogon Tour players will have to tech chase these v specific counters, keep up with them over the years, or risk losing to some random bullshit tera.

Not even Preview will help, since it will be too late to have a counter for something like Bug Clod, or Ghost Garg, or Flying Tran- whatever goofy tera counters that will be present years from now.

It doesn't help tera trends come in waves, fall in popularity so you build differently, or play differently, then come back around.
I haven't seen a Fire Gambit in about 2 months, should I still be wary of Wisp'ing Gambits I know don't have Lum?
I haven't seen a sub NP Hydre in awhile, should I still assume Tera Steel?

Tera Preview, as weird and unsatisfying it is for a lot of players, needs to implemented.
Banning Tera Blast as well might be needed.
Tera in its current form is simply too outrageous.

 

[MilkyWay]

Good suggestion... I am not sure this is it. However I have been experimenting with a Lucario set to somewhat deter Ceaseless Edge spam.

Lucario @ Punching Glove
Ability: Justified
Tera Type: Normal/Steel/Ice
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Speed
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Ice Punch
- Bullet Punch
- Extreme Speed/Earthquake

This was kinda make take of "Urisfu at home". The idea of this set is to switch in on H-Sam early game for a Justified Boost of +1 (ideally via a damaging pivot like Volt switch/U turn to break potential sash leads) or save it for Gambit in late game.

+1 252 Atk Punching Glove Lucario Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Great Tusk: 192-226 (51.7 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (after rocks)
252 Atk Punching Glove Lucario Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-Therian: 248-296 (64.9 - 77.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

I don't claim that this set is good, however Lucario has an amazing STAB combo in this meta imo with a multitude of priority moves at it's disposal. If Landorus switches in to drop Lucario's attack back to neutral then it can still do some major damage and Lucario is naturally faster than Great Tusk. Earthquake is also a tech so that way Gholdengo doesn't hard wall you.

In terms of Tera, I don't often Tera Lucario, however Normal is the way to go if your running E-speed. If Earthquake is ran instead than the second slot is based on team needs. I think boosted Bullet Punch from Tera Steel is much apprciated, however I have had some funny interactions with opponents using Chilling Reception and then getting the Snow Defense boost.

I don't think Lucario has ever been good in OU but right now might be the best time to try it due to Ceaseless Edge spam, Kingambit, and Lando-T usage being at an all-time low.

Punishing a turn 1 Ceaseless Edge by wallbreaking with Lucario seems tough considering all the threats that can switch in (tusk, lando, clodsire, skele, gholdengo, zapdos, dozo, and probably more).

Tusk is probably going to be the most common switch in, so tera flying + sd could punish this well, except I wouldn't recommend burning your tera so early.

I theorymon'd a choice band set of Close Combat / Earthquake / Ice Punch / Extreme Speed that can 2HKO most of these with good prediction while still being able function well as a late game cleaner due to tera normal espeed + its favorable matchup with gambit.

I think Lucario also has potential as a dedicated late game cleaner due to espeed and gambit. A set of SD/CC/espeed/filler could probably work with proper team support or even a bulk up/drain punch/espeed/filler maybe with hp or defensive investment could be interesting to try.

So yeah Lucario definitely isn't good, but might have potential in this favorable metagame. It's got a good movepool that can allow it to get by some of its usual checks, but never all, so teambuilding around it is definitely super important.

 

[furyofyuriy]

Interesting set. I think I'd personally like Inner Focus a bit more to deter Lando-T from switching in but not all teams run Lando-T, so I also see the appeal for Justifed.

Yeah so my rational was that most people would assume it's inner Focus, thus mindlessly spam Ceaseless edge as they do to get the +1 attack boost. Now if the opponent has a lando and they switch, you lose the +1 but it's not really a loss in the sense because now you have forced it out to take a hit. If it's defensive Lando, Ice Punch will kill it even if you didn't predict the intial switch after you use CC.

Dark just seems to be insane this gen given the plethora of Dark types that graced OU in one point or another. So the reason I have been liking Justified over inner focus is because intimidate is currently less common in OU than in prior gens and if it does have the Boost, baiting an intimidate out just to return you to neutral seems to be more valuable.

I don't think Lucario has ever been good in OU but right now might be the best time to try it due to Ceaseless Edge spam, Kingambit, and Lando-T usage being at an all-time low.

Punishing a turn 1 Ceaseless Edge by wallbreaking with Lucario seems tough considering all the threats that can switch in (tusk, lando, clodsire, skele, gholdengo, zapdos, dozo, and probably more).

Tusk is probably going to be the most common switch in, so tera flying + sd could punish this well, except I wouldn't recommend burning your tera so early.

I theorymon'd a choice band set of Close Combat / Earthquake / Ice Punch / Extreme Speed that can 2HKO most of these with good prediction while still being able function well as a late game cleaner due to tera normal espeed + its favorable matchup with gambit.

I think Lucario also has potential as a dedicated late game cleaner due to espeed and gambit. A set of SD/CC/espeed/filler could probably work with proper team support or even a bulk up/drain punch/espeed/filler maybe with hp or defensive investment could be interesting to try.

So yeah Lucario definitely isn't good, but might have potential in this favorable metagame. It's got a good movepool that can allow it to get by some of its usual checks, but never all, so teambuilding around it is definitely super important.

I completely agree, however I feel SD just isn't super viable an option for OU as opposed to UU. As stated, this isn't really a mon that wants to Tera often, but in the late game it has some good options.

The reason I like Punching Glove over Band or SD is because it gives you a notable Power buff to certain moves without locking you into one move. In fact, for the very common switch ins you stated (Tusk, Ghold, Zapdos, etc.) I have been dropping Espeed for EQ recently due to being walled by said mons and have had pretty good results.

+1 252 Atk Lucario Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Unaware Skeledirge: 194-230 (47.2 - 55.9%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO (Calm Variant)
+1 252 Atk Punching Glove Lucario Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 192-228 (50 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

The thing I have been impressed with this set as opposed to Life Orb/Choice Band attacker is that while the power difference is noticed (as in not as strong), it has more staying power and that trade off is proving useful. It sits in a nice speed tier where it is JUST fast enough to deal with many common switch ins to keep H-Sam alive and the versatility to pick off lots of unsuspecting mons.

But I think your right. In this weird meta we have going on, Lucario may have a nice niche. At the very least, it can be run a number of different ways to punish specific threats.

 

[sims796]

Another simple movefail of the times, featuring our good friend Hammarot

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1886809469-1ma2t97nh6kmm7if5x8im0m9oksxyu0pw

I'm finding this metagame fun, really. Things that terrified me at first are turning out to be pretty manageable. This was an extreme example, but no matter what elo you are, that...sucks. I feel for this one. I thought regular spikes wouldn't have as much merit with CE, but this is the second consecutive match involving H-Rot where they missed their move, wasted their sash, I was spared a match of Spikes, though they were smart enough to at least Aqua Jet.

I'm also not broken up about the bans, either. Speaking sole for myself, and being completely selfish, I'm usually in favor of bans. Kinda like a less haymaker-y meta we have going, and there's been less quitting on a single DD that I experienced earlier on. It lets me play with goofy trams and have a measure of success. But for a better meta, I'm more selective on my bans.

And Yawn is such a slept on option on Luna, I don't see it much. Helps ease not having a priority move, and helps me not waste Trick Room turns.

 

[turd2]

Petition to rename Great Tusk to Godphan.

 

[yomaalt]

facts

from the games i've played on high ladder so far, the current metagame is very skill expressive outside of zapdos.

I don't know if y'all are ready for this... but hear me out

ban static

 

[Dan Dan]

How can Tera itself be tested before Tera Blast? If you remove Tera, that removes Tera Blast as well.

 

[carbonlifeform]

Making my first semi-serious attempt at reqs, and I just want to say I'm baffled by people who supposedly go 30-0. Like, how do you go 30 matches without getting rng screwed?

My second run, I managed a 13-0 start (courtesy of some baaaad misplays by a couple of my opponents, TBH). Lost a match (to another reqs account I think) and won my next two to hit 15-1. Feeling great.

My next three matches:
A lead Attack Booster Iron Treads somehow manages to flinch and follow-up KO both of my attempts to get it into easy KO range for Scarf Enamorus, putting me in a massive bind and ultimately leaving me too depleted to close out the match.

Next match: An unlucky Cursed Body proc on Scarf Enamorus from the most obvious Screens Pult ever gives a free switch to Bax. Hard switch on the DD to Gholdengo who gladly sacrifices its balloon to Icicle Crash to KO with Make It Rain. This invites in Tera Flying Roaring Moon. I correctly predict the DD and click TWave to put the rest of my team in a good position to claw back momentum...and miss. Roaring Moon Sweeps.

Third match: Spamming Strength Sap with Brambleghast against Ursaluna to buy me the breathing room to set up extra Spikes and pick up a Rapid Spin boost to help manage a Specs Enamorus breathing down my neck. Luna gets the crit. Worst part of this one is that I would have won if I'd made the worse play and just gone for the extra Spikes that turn.

So, three matches and >5 pts of GXE gone because of a ~9% chance, a ~5% chance, and a ~6% chance. I'm not saying the GXE requirement is overly burdensome or anything. Pretty sure I can still get it on that account if I have the time to invest, but are these people going 30-0 just spamming HO to burn through matches and starting a fresh alt after every loss just for the flex? Because 30-0 is an expression of luck at least as much as it's an expression of skill.

 

[NoobHereWaddup]

Making my first semi-serious attempt at reqs, and I just want to say I'm baffled by people who supposedly go 30-0. Like, how do you go 30 matches without getting rng screwed?

My second run, I managed a 13-0 start (courtesy of some baaaad misplays by a couple of my opponents, TBH). Lost a match (to another reqs account I think) and won my next two to hit 15-1. Feeling great.

My next three matches:
A lead Attack Booster Iron Treads somehow manages to flinch and follow-up KO both of my attempts to get it into easy KO range for Scarf Enamorus, putting me in a massive bind and ultimately leaving me too depleted to close out the match.

Next match: An unlucky Cursed Body proc on Scarf Enamorus from the most obvious Screens Pult ever gives a free switch to Bax. Hard switch on the DD to Gholdengo who gladly sacrifices its balloon to Icicle Crash to KO with Make It Rain. This invites in Tera Flying Roaring Moon. I correctly predict the DD and click TWave to put the rest of my team in a good position to claw back momentum...and miss. Roaring Moon Sweeps.

Third match: Spamming Strength Sap with Brambleghast against Ursaluna to buy me the breathing room to set up extra Spikes and pick up a Rapid Spin boost to help manage a Specs Enamorus breathing down my neck. Luna gets the crit. Worst part of this one is that I would have won if I'd made the worse play and just gone for the extra Spikes that turn.

So, three matches and >5 pts of GXE gone because of a ~9% chance, a ~5% chance, and a ~6% chance. I'm not saying the GXE requirement is overly burdensome or anything. Pretty sure I can still get it on that account if I have the time to invest, but are these people going 30-0 just spamming HO to burn through matches and starting a fresh alt after every loss just for the flex? Because 30-0 is an expression of luck at least as much as it's an expression of skill.

Oh man i fully agree. I've restarted suspect test accounts after losing a match thanks to my blissey getting critted 3 times in a row and then another match i have a dnite ready to sweep, then it gets ko'd thanks to 2 full para's in a row from dire claw, resulting in a loss sice dnite was also the only thing i had left to win that match. Feels impossible to eventually lose a match to rng.
also ban sneasler