Metagame Suspect Discussion - Baton Pass

[Svalkenaeres]

1) Is Baton Pass broken? :

No. Baton Pass is too much based on the match-up. Some teams well built can be exploded by a BP Team, and a huge majority will have answers, and can beat them quite easily. The problem of the BP is that it's a unilateral playstyle : Curse, Pass on the good mon, and then sweep. Torchic works once for a BP, not twice. So a BP must sweep your team directly, and lose if it fails. Some mons, like TauntFoo, Diglett, SturdySmashers, Sashbra make the sweep difficult. One mon can't sweep all the threat, this is too difficult. That's the reason that make BP not broken. For me, it's even an inferior playstyle, and I can't understand what is the thing that make BP suspected.

2) Is Baton Pass making Little Cup not fun?

Baton Pass is irritating (especially quickpass), and not really mind-based, but most of the time, you can deal with. If your team isn't prepared, even if your team is the best of the world, you will lose. But I have a team weak to SubBulk Up Riolu, so I will ask a suspect for him ? Sun is really more broken that Baton Pass. However, I admit that I don't like the playstyle, who is quite luck-based for the match-up. And, I never considered BP like a real threat, and please stop saying that it limits the teambuilding, that's wrong. Not fun to deal with =/= Broken.

3) Is a combination of 1 and 2 deterring individuals from playing Little Cup?

No.

4) If there is a Baton Pass nerf, how exactly are we nerfing it?

There is no point to nerf it. You can limit Baton Pass to two by team, but full BP chain isn't good most of the time.

I agree with Cheek Pouch : I don't like Baton Pass at all, but really, ban BP, and you will just destroy a whole playstyle and a lot of mons, like Torchic. You can ban BP if you want but then don't cry because LC miss diversity and because you are always watching the same teams in ladder/tournament.

 

[inscribe]

Haze is a great 4th move on surskit, useful for stopping BU timburr and CM spritz sweeps. These answers are otherwise viable, but if you have them it's a pretty algorithmic win, and if you don't you lose. there are many viable answers to baton pass, but there are other options that people would like to run but cannot because of baton pass. For example, when I feel like laddering I must run SD on fletchling, when I would like to run overheat. Baton pass is free points if your team can deal with it, but I'd much rather get the best LC battler ever and learn something from my loss and have a fun battle than get 'free points'. For me, the ladder is about having fun, not how many points I have.

and I would like for someone to actually answer the question: If we can make LC a better metagame by banning Baton pass, why wouldn't we? I see no reason to not ban it if it can make LC a healthier metagame.

What's your point? Haze Surskit is ok but that wasn't my point. Cool, you like having fun, but this discussion isn't about learning from mistakes, but rather if Baton Pass is so overwhelming that your team building is strained or you're forced to run obscure checks. Your entire post is explaining the rather use of an ok set then following it up with a "ban baton pass it's unhealthy" and, my point is, no one pro bp ban has any reasoning at all other than it is "unhealthy" for some reason..

If banning Baton Pass makes the meta game healthier, what's your definition of healthy? Baton Pass gives us a new strategy to get ready for when team building, and it isn't even hard to prepare for. If getting rid of a decent archetype is healthy, then banning Eviolite and Berry Juice is healthy, oh, and ban Stall and Offense while you're at it. This thread is just 90% pro no ban and 10% ban, but the 10% can't give a decent reason.

 

[mad0ka]

If banning Baton Pass makes the meta game healthier, what's your definition of healthy? Baton Pass gives us a new strategy to get ready for when team building, and it isn't even hard to prepare for. If getting rid of a decent archetype is healthy, then banning Eviolite and Berry Juice is healthy, oh, and ban Stall and Offense while you're at it. This thread is just 90% pro no ban and 10% ban, but the 10% can't give a decent reason.

Okay, the claim that "banning Eviolite and Berry Juice... [and] Stall and Offense" is a preposterous leap from what the intent of a baton pass nerf would do. Baton pass is not broken, but it in no way promotes a competitive metagame, which is why even top-notch players like ZF want this archetype limited. Saying that "the 10% can't give a decent reason" is exceptionally rude to users like Levi who have spent a lot of time to go in depth about why baton pass inherently only adds 50/50s and luck to an otherwise perfectly balanced metagame whereas you spit out two points of evidence and try to put yourself in a superior light. I'm not going to reiterate any of what's already been said because that would be both a waste of mine and others' time, but maybe you should try to read a bit before you insult and invalidate others.

 

[RZL]

1) Is Baton Pass broken? No, baton pass is not broken as, it surely is not a guaranteed win, it has to use unorthodox Pokemon, and is very match up reliant.
If a baton pass team is not well built it will lose almost every single game like any other archetype teams. If someone takes time and puts effort in building a good baton pass team then they should be able to use it just like anyone who makes a good voltturn or sticky web team. Baton Pass was banned in other tiers for reasons not present in LC. Baton pass also has to use very unorthodox Pokemon with exception to Mienfoo, whom is the only Pokemon with baton pass in S or A rank. With a total list of 23 Pokemon in LC with baton pass and approximately 10 of those viable. I think for this reason Quick Pass is better than Full Pass. Baton Pass teams can get around all of it checks but, Taunt, Whirlwind, Fletchling, and Hazard Offence (Becoming good) all keep low ladder people instantly getting high ranks from using Full Pass. If someone plays well with any type of team then they should use it.

2) Is Baton Pass making LC not fun? Um, LC is always a lot of fun and it is adding more fun and diverse as people are using Pokemon like Munna which otherwise would never be seen.

3) Is a combination of 1 and 2 deterring individuals from playing Little Cup? No, if anything it is bringing people in who wanted Baton Pass to stay in other tiers and do not like Primal Groudon everywhere.

4) If there is a Baton Pass nerf, how exactly are we nerfing it? Baton Pass is not broken but if it was given a nerf I would say limiting it to 3 Pokemon per team so, it does not harm Quickpass but does stop full chains but there is no reason to ban Baton Pass.

 

[inscribe]

Okay, the claim that "banning Eviolite and Berry Juice... [and] Stall and Offense" is a preposterous leap from what the intent of a baton pass nerf would do. Baton pass is not broken, but it in no way promotes a competitive metagame, which is why even top-notch players like ZF want this archetype limited. Saying that "the 10% can't give a decent reason" is exceptionally rude to users like Levi who have spent a lot of time to go in depth about why baton pass inherently only adds 50/50s and luck to an otherwise perfectly balanced metagame whereas you spit out two points of evidence and try to put yourself in a superior light. I'm not going to reiterate any of what's already been said because that would be both a waste of mine and others' time, but maybe you should try to read a bit before you insult and invalidate others.

I didn't mean to come off as rude, but again, you never gave a reason as to why it doesn't promote a competitive meta game. It's just a claim with no reasoning to back it up. As Mambo said, it gives us a new archetype to prepare for and more threats to be wary about. If you lack the proper ways to deal with BP then you deserve to lose, and it's not even difficult to slap on an answer to BP on a team, so Unless you play really badly, you should be able to hold your own. I'd rather not keep posting the same things people have saying, so I'm not going to go any more in depth. Checks to BP are very common and there's literally no reason to not run a Taunt Foo, Encore Cotton, Whirlwind Hippo, Fletchling, etc. on a team, depending on what type of team it is.

 

[tazz]

I didn't mean to come off as rude, but again, you never gave a reason as to why it doesn't promote a competitive meta game. It's just a claim with no reasoning to back it up. depending on what type of team it is.

users like Levi who have spent a lot of time to go in depth about why baton pass inherently only adds 50/50s and luck to an otherwise perfectly balanced metagame

?
Baton pass is completely unique from every other playstyle in LC in that it is ALMOST COMPLETELY MATCHUP RELIANT. Baton pass has a lot of checks, but otherwise solid teams can lose to it and often do. It is different from threats like fletchling in that
- it's checks are less common
- fletchling can be put on many teams, if you're running full BP you're running full BP
- threats like fletchling encourage outplay and prediction: BP is fully matchup reliant and algorithmic for both sides
I fail to see how either being set up on and clean swept or voltswitching to fletchling or LO gast every single time promotes a competitive metagame.

 

[Heysup]

Okay, the claim that "banning Eviolite and Berry Juice... [and] Stall and Offense" is a preposterous leap from what the intent of a baton pass nerf would do. Baton pass is not broken, but it in no way promotes a competitive metagame, which is why even top-notch players like ZF want this archetype limited. Saying that "the 10% can't give a decent reason" is exceptionally rude to users like Levi who have spent a lot of time to go in depth about why baton pass inherently only adds 50/50s and luck to an otherwise perfectly balanced metagame whereas you spit out two points of evidence and try to put yourself in a superior light. I'm not going to reiterate any of what's already been said because that would be both a waste of mine and others' time, but maybe you should try to read a bit before you insult and invalidate others.

Where is there any proof of this?

Sorry to pick you out queenlucy but everything that's been said by those users has been debunked to the point that many users now are convinced BP isn't even good.

The match-up dependency argument, in particular, has been beaten to the ground. It's not match-up dependent in a Rock-Paper-Scissors way. It's a bad match-up for almost everything and even things that it's good against, you're going to be doing a lot of guessing (the 50/50s happen there).

Also, these 50/50s are not unusual to any metagame and it's been thrown around this thread as if it means something.

If there's nothing new to be brought to the table, then I think we can stop asserting that "BP is match-ups, 50/50s and uncompetitive".

 

[Artemis Fowl]

1) Is Baton Pass broken?

Definitively not. Baton Pass is getting successful results only because it is considered so little of a threat that people don't even mind it during building.

Also, my post stating how Baton Pass does not impact in any way the wealth of any playstyle : http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/metagame-discussion-thread.3505710/page-41#post-6082319

Past bans have been about pokemons that everybody was trying as hard as possible to check, if not counter, and they would still fail. Has anybody here the guts to say people try to counter baton pass ? Like, seriously ? I haven't seen a single whirlwind in ages.

Banning something for being too powerful when it only works because it's considered too powerless is midway between funny, and sad.


2) Is Baton Pass making Little Cup not fun?

A match against Baton Pass is indeed not fun, if you were too stubborn to stand on top of the skyscrapper that is your ego and declare "Baton pass sucks so bad I don't need checks !"
And then lose terribly to it.
But that's your problem.

3) Is a combination of 1 and 2 deterring individuals from playing Little Cup?

Those who do not play Little Cup do not even know Baton Pass Clause isn't in LC. Such presence, much threat, wow.
I once got caught off guard by a Baton Pass team, and, pissed of, put Whirlwind to my Vullaby. Never again did I lose to one with that team.

4) If there is a Baton Pass ban, what exactly are we banning?

I'd root for banning teams with 4 or more baton pass moves. Having several Baton Pass moves can be funny, without being a Baton Pass team, and it'd be sad having it disappear as collateral damage.
But god, i trust the LC Council on not banning baton pass. This kind of team only work on the ladder / fun tournaments, and will clearly not fare against teams that have been correctly built WITH A DAMN BP CHECK AND THERE ARE MANY. Once again : http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/metagame-discussion-thread.3505710/page-41#post-6082319

 

[tazz]

Where is there any proof of this?

Sorry to pick you out queenlucy but everything that's been said by those users has been debunked to the point that many users now are convinced BP isn't even good.

The match-up dependency argument, in particular, has been beaten to the ground. It's not match-up dependent in a Rock-Paper-Scissors way. It's a bad match-up for almost everything and even things that it's good against, you're going to be doing a lot of guessing (the 50/50s happen there).

Also, these 50/50s are not unusual to any metagame and it's been thrown around this thread as if it means something.

If there's nothing new to be brought to the table, then I think we can stop asserting that "BP is match-ups, 50/50s and uncompetitive".

BP isn't "good," nobody has ever argued that, it's incredibly unhealthy for the metagame

The matchup dependancy argument is completely true: many teams, balance in particular, have no way to really stop BP. For example, in my week 7 SPLC match vs melonz, his team was made up of Timburr / Skrelp / Pawniard / Archen / Ponyta / Pumpkaboo. If I had bought my standard BP team, would have had no real way of breaking it, and probably would have lost considering it couldn't have done much. through encoring the timburr, walling the pawniard with mienfoo, and beating skrelp with CM floon, he really could not have done anything vs the team except hoping for a scald burn or something. While many people's playstyles almost always pack a BP check, many don't, and that's what makes it ban-worthy.

 

[macle]

Stop posting about how this suspect is a joke and start talking about the actual suspect.

 

[sam-testings]

While it may not be impacting the meta strongly right now, we are basically trying to figure out wether it would be bad if it did become popular. If Bp did ever become popular, it would be pretty bad. Imagine the chaos of bp in ou. Except with cutemons. Being swept by a munna with a + 4 in every stat is very scary, kinda like that feeling i get when watching swirlix. It can be countered with proper mons but, who's gonna run haze woofer on the ladder? really, only if you know for sure the person is bringing bp, you are pretty unprepared for it. I once ran into bp on the ladder, and the guy burned my fletchling first turn. Bp is a surprisingly flexible play style that can adapt to new counters to it pretty easily. While i still believe it is a gimmick, it can be powerful when played correctly and not by some noob who found infamy's post.

too be fair, i don't even have reqs, so I'm gonna predict half of you are gonna ignore this post.

 

[OP]

BP isn't "good," nobody has ever argued that, it's incredibly unhealthy for the metagame

The matchup dependancy argument is completely true: many teams, balance in particular, have no way to really stop BP. For example, in my week 7 SPLC match vs melonz, his team was made up of Timburr / Skrelp / Pawniard / Archen / Ponyta / Pumpkaboo. If I had bought my standard BP team, would have had no real way of breaking it, and probably would have lost considering it couldn't have done much. through encoring the timburr, walling the pawniard with mienfoo, and beating skrelp with CM floon, he really could not have done anything vs the team except hoping for a scald burn or something. While many people's playstyles almost always pack a BP check, many don't, and that's what makes it ban-worthy.

Baton Pass is unhealthy because somebody failed to bring a check to it? I don't mean any offense to Melon but it would be his own fault if you brought BP and he lost. It's like choosing to not bring a Fletchling check and being surprised when you lose to it, except that your check to BP can't get worn down or overcome in any way. It's not matchup dependent when it loses to any team that has been built in a smart way. It's not difficult to have some way of beating Baton Pass, some people just don't do so because BP isn't common or good.

 

[Heysup]

BP isn't "good," nobody has ever argued that, it's incredibly unhealthy for the metagame

The matchup dependancy argument is completely true: many teams, balance in particular, have no way to really stop BP. For example, in my week 7 SPLC match vs melonz, his team was made up of Timburr / Skrelp / Pawniard / Archen / Ponyta / Pumpkaboo. If I had bought my standard BP team, would have had no real way of breaking it, and probably would have lost considering it couldn't have done much. through encoring the timburr, walling the pawniard with mienfoo, and beating skrelp with CM floon, he really could not have done anything vs the team except hoping for a scald burn or something. While many people's playstyles almost always pack a BP check, many don't, and that's what makes it ban-worthy.

There is a distinction you need to make between "good" and unhealthy. I've never understood this. You start talking about how it's not good, but unhealthy. And then, you try and justify the unhealthiness argument by explaining a situation in which BP is good. That doesn't make any logical sense.

Furthermore, where is your proof for the bolded statement? As far as stats and I are concerned, there's lots of ways for balance to beat BP. In fact, I think it's pretty clear that any team can beat a BP team as long as they play well. Stating your one example, even if it were true, doesn't prove shit.

And I'm not even going to give you that example. If your using a standard Torchic team, why doesn't it just Bulk Up turn one and spam the shit out of Knock Off? If you don't get the speed boosts, your Floon is going to get its ass kicked by Ponyta, Pawniard and Archen. Also, good luck switching Drifloon into Hydro Pump which can OHKO, 2HKO at worst. I don't know what your team is exactly, but I'd take any well-built team over any BP team any day.

 

[TruSwagblu]

While many people's playstyles almost always pack a BP check, many don't, and that's what makes it ban-worthy.

Or they could simply change their team to contain one of the many useful, non-obscure, good (outside of solely checking BP), options available to them.

Not being prepared for something they could definitely be prepared for, without using what would usually be a bad thing (E.g, Goomy to stop Tangela in TangMa VS. Taunt, Mons such as Fletch, and Phazing) to use outside of stopping BP, doesn't make BP ban-worthy in my opinion.

Especially with BPs small presence in the meta though, it's not very centralizing. While people in general should carry answers to BP, it shouldn't be because of the fear of BP, but instead because it's a good idea.

Also, if they notice their team is weak to BP because they got destroyed by it in a battle, they shouldn't be stubborn; they should change up their team. They don't even have to waste a pokemon or a moveslot via some gimmick to stop BP; they can do it through legitimate means. If your team was weak to a certain mon (E.g, fletch), you don't wait for it to go away, or hope it's not used, you find a way to beat it. Since (staying with the fletch example) there are many viable things that stop fletch, why not use them? While a single pokemon isn't the same as an entire playstyle, both in this scenario give the same idea; if there is a generally good way to beat something, it's a generally good idea to use it.

If BP had more of a presence, was over centralizing, required shitty gimmicks to beat, and was completely unfair, it'd probably warrant a ban, but it does none of those things atm.

 

[boo836]

BP isn't "good," nobody has ever argued that, it's incredibly unhealthy for the metagame

The matchup dependancy argument is completely true: many teams, balance in particular, have no way to really stop BP. For example, in my week 7 SPLC match vs melonz, his team was made up of Timburr / Skrelp / Pawniard / Archen / Ponyta / Pumpkaboo. If I had bought my standard BP team, would have had no real way of breaking it, and probably would have lost considering it couldn't have done much. through encoring the timburr, walling the pawniard with mienfoo, and beating skrelp with CM floon, he really could not have done anything vs the team except hoping for a scald burn or something. While many people's playstyles almost always pack a BP check, many don't, and that's what makes it ban-worthy.

How about you use a check instead of using suspect to fix your teambuilding issues? there are means to stop bp With any style. Stop kidding yourself.

 

[Pikasohn]

Ok, so now we're having everyone talking about BP being 'good' (yolo) or not hmmm...

1. Is baton pass broken?

Even though I too have voted on suspecting BP, ofc I don't think it's 'Broken'. Like hey guys, what exactly is the border for being 'Broken' or not tbh? I think we're shifting the topic and abusing the word a bit. I think 'BATON PASS IS NOT BROKEN', but what is true is that it is something many teams are not prepared for. Some are saying that it is easy to check simply with a taunt/encore or a setup mon. I do not think this is always the case. There are so many teams that are made that were not under consideration of BP teams, which means they might not have taunt/encore or a setup mon. Even if they do have them, they don't always succeed in stopping the BP team. But does that mean the team is not 'Good'? I think teams all have their own colors and advantages, and just because they can't stop BP, doesn't mean that the team itself is not good. Instead, it might be extremely effective against other teams in the current meta. In that case, I believe the BP teams are kinda destroying the current meta. Way too many balanced teams are getting slain by these stupid BP strats and are making people have no choice but to prepare a check in cased u meet a team you will probably never meet in 6 days. Why do we have to suffer because of these Baton passes and give up our good teams? I felt really sad when I met a full BP chain team when I brought a sticky web team.

P.S. This will make you guys understand better

Swagger vs Baton Pass

What's so different about these two things lol. Everyone thinks that swagger was right to be banned and BP shouldn't be. Obv people will say that Swagger is just based RNG cancerous stuff. What about BP? Is BP something that needs extreme carefulness on running and not luck based at all? More importantly, 'both can be prevented by a simple encore / taunt' HAH!

Baton Pass vs Zigzagoon

Just another example. Ziggy is one of my favorite cuties I use for LC, and I would say BP and ziggy are extremely different. Zigzagoon's setup requires massive skill and preperation to be accomplished. Plus, the sweep can be stopped easily unless the player successfully creates a condition for ziggy to SWAG it's tail safely. In the other hand, BP.... Does it need much skill or preparing b4 it goes ham? ( The preperation here I'm talking isn't the setting - up stage ) Can it be stopped after the setup is finished? Sadly, not likely. Again here, both ziggy and BP can be stopped with encore.

2. Is Baton Pass making Little Cup not fun?

Definetely. Baton Pass can just simply ruin any team that does not hold something to stop it in the meta rn, especially balanced teams. This means that BP is destroying the 'Balance' of the meta which is not something very nice to see. What are we supposed to choose? Get a BP check and your team is more likely to lose to a decent non BP team. But most of all, playing again BP is cancer itself.

3. Is a combination of 1 and 2 deterring individuals from playing Little Cup?

I don't think that people will actually 'quit' just because of one or two BP teams lurking around the ladder, but I def think that people do not like it, and hope/wish they avoid those BS teams when pressing the button.

4. If there is a Baton Pass ban, what exactly are we banning?

I do not agree with the fact that BP the move itself should be banned. What I want is the fully BP dedicated chain teams to be gone. I believe part BP teams should still go on, which is what I think is the actual skill.

Thanks!

 

[Heysup]

P.S. This will make you guys understand better

First of all, while I vehemently disagree with these analogies, I appreciate that someone is actually putting effort into illustrating the pro-ban camp's point.

Swagger vs Baton Pass

What's so different about these two things lol. Everyone thinks that swagger was right to be banned and BP shouldn't be. Obv people will say that Swagger is just based RNG cancerous stuff. What about BP? Is BP something that needs extreme carefulness on running and not luck based at all? More importantly, 'both can be prevented by a simple encore / taunt' HAH!

I think you made the argument for me. BP has almost nothing to do with RNG. It has to do with people playing poorly or not. You can outplay an opponent with swagger and lose. If you outplay someone with BP, you will definitely not lose. If you play like shit against BP, you still have some 50/50 chances to win.

Baton Pass vs Zigzagoon

Just another example. Ziggy is one of my favorite cuties I use for LC, and I would say BP and ziggy are extremely different. Zigzagoon's setup requires massive skill and preperation to be accomplished. Plus, the sweep can be stopped easily unless the player successfully creates a condition for ziggy to SWAG it's tail safely. In the other hand, BP.... Does it need much skill or preparing b4 it goes ham? ( The preperation here I'm talking isn't the setting - up stage ) Can it be stopped after the setup is finished? Sadly, not likely. Again here, both ziggy and BP can be stopped with encore.

They are different, but I'm not sure and I would say Ziggy is a much more viable strategy even if it's one-dimensional. You can only have a finite number of Zigzagoon counters and they can be worn down. BP's counters literally destroy it once they are played in a reasonable manner.

 

[tko]

ok so testing out bp in battles has made me learn more about how it works, what beats it, what it beats. For the most part, bp is dependent on team matchup, if you opponent has taunt, the game is decided turn 1. However, if you opponent dosent have taunt, haze, whirlwind/roar, encore, or a set up sweeper, of course its going to be hard for them to win. its like that for every play style, however, for example, fletch can steamroll teams without a rock, steel, or electric type. bp is a bit different in the sense that unlike other play styles where volt turn can be handled by the team, bp needs to be played in a specific way. turn 1 usually decides the game when facing a bp chain. I dont think bp is broken, not at all, but should be nerfed from full pass chains, it would make the tier a bit more fun bc bp teams would have *a bit* more creativity.
tldr, i dont feel like bp is broken, but should get nerfed slightly.

 

[Camden]

ok so testing out bp in battles has made me learn more about how it works, what beats it, what it beats. For the most part, bp is dependent on team matchup, if you opponent has taunt, the game is decided turn 1. However, if you opponent dosent have taunt, haze, whirlwind/roar, encore, or a set up sweeper, of course its going to be hard for them to win. its like that for every play style, however, for example, fletch can steamroll teams without a rock, steel, or electric type. bp is a bit different in the sense that unlike other play styles where volt turn can be handled by the team, bp needs to be played in a specific way. turn 1 usually decides the game when facing a bp chain. I dont think bp is broken, not at all, but should be nerfed from full pass chains, it would make the tier a bit more fun bc bp teams would have *a bit* more creativity.
tldr, i dont feel like bp is broken, but should get nerfed slightly.

While limited in comparison to other team types, BP actually has a decent amount of variation. I'm sure you may have seen the common BP team of Torchic / Mienfoo / Togepi / Mime Jr. / Munna / Gothita but as Levi mentioned there are approximately 15-16 viable Pokemon that can be used on FullPass teams.

Also, a Turn 1 Taunt doesn't really equal a free win. A Torchic lead will almost always Protect turn 1 because most common Taunt users don't also carry a boosting move. From there it leads into a 50/50 of either Subbing to predict the attack/switch, or a Will-o-Wisp if it's a physical attacker to outspeed the Taunt. If it's a Gothita lead, I'm pretty sure they just attack turn 1 predicting the taunt.

This leads me to a thought I've been having recently about FullPass teams. First off, I can't properly type FullPass without making a typo and having to correct. Second, there are a lot of 50/50s involved while using BP. What is a situation in LC where you run into pure 50/50s and can't do anyhing about it? Speed ties. I've always believed that if you have to force a 50/50 to be successful on a play, you're not making a smart play and it possibly reflects on you as either having an unsuitable team or simply being a bad player. Why would you purposely use a team which forces extremely unsafe 50/50s depending on the situation? If your opponent doesn't have any tools to check BP properly, they'll probably lose anyway, but if they do (BP checks aren't difficult to carry. You don't even have to think about them most of the time) the 50/50s can be created. I'm okay with the idea of using risky teams, but BP is a different type of risk. If you're say, playing HO, the risk is a matter of "If I don't properly apply enough pressure on my opponent, I lose" whereas BP is "If I lose these 50/50s, I lose". You shouldn't be relying on 50/50s to win a game.

 

[Merritt]

So I've been playing a decent amount of BP lately against other users and on the ladder, and have to say there are two types of battles, ones where I lose and ones where I win.

More seriously, it really is all about who has momentum. If the Baton Pass team gains momentum, either when the other team switches, gets outpredicted, or just makes the wrong play, it all spirals out of control to the point where the BP team can just steamroll. On the Ladder this was fairly common, as the other players weren't very good at applying pressure and didn't really know how to deal with BP.

On the other hand, against good, respectable players I lost almost every game. There were only two games against good players where I won, out of almost a dozen games. Part of this can absolutely be chalked up to inexperience, as I don't like to use BP and so didn't have a good grasp on the team, but a lot of it is also that most people knew how to deal with it.

There were about four games that stood out to me as examples of why BP is powerful and prone to losing. The two that I won (one of which I had to leave at a point where the battle literally was decided barring some incredible hax) and two where Baton Pass teams' reliance on hax not going against them ended up in a loss. The two won games were fully momentum driven, one against semi-stall and the other against a more standard team. Against stall I saw they didn't have any shufflers, bar the possibility of a Vullaby Whirlwind, so I managed to set up some Calm Mind boosts after passing out with Torchic while they set up hazards, and then proceeded to sweep with a Togepi, not quite setting up a complete chain because I was afraid of Vullaby having Whirlwind (for all I know it might have, but a +3 DG KOed it). In the other I simply forced switches in early game, activated Berry Juice on his SturdyJuicer, and then took setup turns on his Chinchou until I was sufficiently powerful enough to start a sweep.

The wins are both due to getting time to set up, which most hyper offense teams won't allow. However, BP also has a weakness in its reliance on things going its way. There were multiple battles where a will-o-wisp hitting would have resulted in victory, but more important were crits occurring at critical (ha im funny) moments. There were two occasions, one with a tentacool and one with a pawniard. In both cases a critical hit at exactly the needed moment resulted in my loss- Tentacool's critical Sludge Bomb KOed torchic when it otherwise would not and Pawniard's crit Iron Head bypassed the +2 Defense of my Togepi that would have swept on the next turn.

This is the critical weakness of Baton Pass, the fact that it's so easy for things to go wrong and the difficulty in recovering from it. Baton Pass teams need that 85% accuracy of Will-o-Wisp to not miss and for the crits to not happen at the wrong moments. Baton Pass has many options, not only in teambuilding but in the battle itself- it's perfectly capable of setting up a successful chain at the cost of one mon, and I've had ladder sweeps with a boosted Gothita before- but is held back by its reliance on luck even when the opponent doesn't deal with it well.

For these reasons I feel that nerfing Baton Pass beyond only three members per team is unnecessary and actually detrimental to encouraging the diversity of the meta (granted BP is shitty diversity but w/e floats your boat). Honestly banning it because it "adds nothing to the meta" is a faulty argument from the beginning, as you can easily apply it to two other things. Why not ban Sitrus Berries, which are completely outclassed by both Berry Juice and Oran Berries? It adds nothing except bad teams by keeping it. Why not ban Confuse Ray? It encourages reliance on luck to win, is in general a bad "strategy" if you don't plan on being lucky, and adds nothing of value to the meta. I'm not opposed to good arguments, but saying ban because why not is not a good argument.

 

[The Mansavage]

So I've been playing a decent amount of BP lately against other users and on the ladder, and have to say there are two types of battles, ones where I lose and ones where I win.

More seriously, it really is all about who has momentum. If the Baton Pass team gains momentum, either when the other team switches, gets outpredicted, or just makes the wrong play, it all spirals out of control to the point where the BP team can just steamroll. On the Ladder this was fairly common, as the other players weren't very good at applying pressure and didn't really know how to deal with BP.

On the other hand, against good, respectable players I lost almost every game. There were only two games against good players where I won, out of almost a dozen games. Part of this can absolutely be chalked up to inexperience, as I don't like to use BP and so didn't have a good grasp on the team, but a lot of it is also that most people knew how to deal with it.

There were about four games that stood out to me as examples of why BP is powerful and prone to losing. The two that I won (one of which I had to leave at a point where the battle literally was decided barring some incredible hax) and two where Baton Pass teams' reliance on hax not going against them ended up in a loss. The two won games were fully momentum driven, one against semi-stall and the other against a more standard team. Against stall I saw they didn't have any shufflers, bar the possibility of a Vullaby Whirlwind, so I managed to set up some Calm Mind boosts after passing out with Torchic while they set up hazards, and then proceeded to sweep with a Togepi, not quite setting up a complete chain because I was afraid of Vullaby having Whirlwind (for all I know it might have, but a +3 DG KOed it). In the other I simply forced switches in early game, activated Berry Juice on his SturdyJuicer, and then took setup turns on his Chinchou until I was sufficiently powerful enough to start a sweep.

The wins are both due to getting time to set up, which most hyper offense teams won't allow. However, BP also has a weakness in its reliance on things going its way. There were multiple battles where a will-o-wisp hitting would have resulted in victory, but more important were crits occurring at critical (ha im funny) moments. There were two occasions, one with a tentacool and one with a pawniard. In both cases a critical hit at exactly the needed moment resulted in my loss- Tentacool's critical Sludge Bomb KOed torchic when it otherwise would not and Pawniard's crit Iron Head bypassed the +2 Defense of my Togepi that would have swept on the next turn.

This is the critical weakness of Baton Pass, the fact that it's so easy for things to go wrong and the difficulty in recovering from it. Baton Pass teams need that 85% accuracy of Will-o-Wisp to not miss and for the crits to not happen at the wrong moments. Baton Pass has many options, not only in teambuilding but in the battle itself- it's perfectly capable of setting up a successful chain at the cost of one mon, and I've had ladder sweeps with a boosted Gothita before- but is held back by its reliance on luck even when the opponent doesn't deal with it well.

For these reasons I feel that nerfing Baton Pass beyond only three members per team is unnecessary and actually detrimental to encouraging the diversity of the meta (granted BP is shitty diversity but w/e floats your boat). Honestly banning it because it "adds nothing to the meta" is a faulty argument from the beginning, as you can easily apply it to two other things. Why not ban Sitrus Berries, which are completely outclassed by both Berry Juice and Oran Berries? It adds nothing except bad teams by keeping it. Why not ban Confuse Ray? It encourages reliance on luck to win, is in general a bad "strategy" if you don't plan on being lucky, and adds nothing of value to the meta. I'm not opposed to good arguments, but saying ban because why not is not a good argument.

It seems you've played against more BP teams than I have then, I had been playing at work before I got busy and had to stop, and while it's hardly a substantial sample size, out of 25 LC battles on the ladder I faced exactly 0 BP teams. How many matches did you play versus how many BP teams did you see? I will try to play more later to see if I can find a BP team or two but baton pass, specifically full team baton pass is not common on this ladder at all, and has several checks in some of the most used mons in the meta as well. I don't personally see any need for a nerf to BP at all

 

[Merritt]

It seems you've played against more BP teams than I have then, I had been playing at work before I got busy and had to stop, and while it's hardly a substantial sample size, out of 25 LC battles on the ladder I faced exactly 0 BP teams. How many matches did you play versus how many BP teams did you see? I will try to play more later to see if I can find a BP team or two but baton pass, specifically full team baton pass is not common on this ladder at all, and has several checks in some of the most used mons in the meta as well. I don't personally see any need for a nerf to BP at all

You misunderstand me, I was the guy using BP. I was doing it solely to determine how inconsistent it is, or how absolutely dominant it is. The result was that the ladder (low to mid, not high) does not deal with Baton Pass well, but good players (or at least knowledgable ones) deal with it well.

I didn't see any other BP teams on the ladder, although I have to wonder how BP vs BP would go. Probably very boring, if I had to bet, and determined by who got a crit first.

 

[The Mansavage]

You misunderstand me, I was the guy using BP. I was doing it solely to determine how inconsistent it is, or how absolutely dominant it is. The result was that the ladder (low to mid, not high) does not deal with Baton Pass well, but good players (or at least knowledgable ones) deal with it well.

I didn't see any other BP teams on the ladder, although I have to wonder how BP vs BP would go. Probably very boring, if I had to bet, and determined by who got a crit first.

Oh I see, I may try a BP team myself later, Im not surprised low ladder doesn't deal with BP well as they usually don't deal with too much very well anyway (that's true for every tier though really). I'm still of the opinion that if BP was broken that it would be more common as people tend to try and abuse broken things while they can to get higher on the ladder.

 

[macle]

so basically tl;dr, people started using bp, people who didn't have counters got beat, people who did won? Sounds balanced.

 

[Akkeshi]

so basically tl;dr, people started using bp, people who didn't have counters got beat, people who did won? Sounds balanced.

You make it sound as if when you're teambuilding you have to consider baton pass and hence you have to have certain Pokemon to beat it. I really hope this isn't the case, but in case it is what you are implying is having a team with no taunt, encore, whirlwind or even clear smog/haze users in a metagame as dependent on stat boosting, hazards, spore, recovery moves and status moves as LC is consistent with good teambulding?

You've used the word "balanced" very casually. I don't feel like having something that can prevent status moves is over-centralizing nor do I feel that baton pass is in any way equates to guaranteed wins.