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Super-Effectivemons
- Thread starter Valmanway
- Start date
Gengar: Nasty Plot>CM+ Contrary Overheat, V-Create
+ King's Shield
+ Shift Gear, Fighting Type Coverage
+ Cotton Guard, Leech Seed
+ Geomancy
+ Dark Void
+ Cosmic Power
+ Dark Void, Calm Mind
+ Hi Jump Kick, Sacred Sword, Mach Punch
+ Shift Gear, Rock Head Volt Tackle and Head Smash
+ Tail Glow, Quiver Dance
+ Aura Sphere
+ Fire/Ice Type Coverage, Will-O-Wisp
+ Stealth Rock, Blue Flare, Will-O-Wisp
+ Blue Flare, Blizzard, Thunder
+ Topsy Turvy, Dark Void
EV
Banned deucer.
Did you forget about Arm Thrust?+ Hi Jump Kick, Sacred Sword, Mach Punch
edit: thought it was 20bp, not 15 oh well
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Bullet Seed?
EV
Banned deucer.
Bullet Seed stronker. p_p
Fighting type coverage is better than Bullet Seed, since Cloyster always struggles against Steel types. Hi Jump Kick/Close Combat is better than Arm Thrust by miles.
Cloyster is a magnet for steel types. Of course, 2 flinches from King's Rock can easily enable KO from Icicle Spear, considering the flinch chance is almost 50%. Then again, the chance to not flinch is also just a bit more than 50%.
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Will with Cloyster it is smashing through subs and likely hurts like hell coming off a shell smash. Bonus points for having a King's rock and that added flinch chance. Definitely no HJK though. Cloyster's enough of a one hit point wonder as is after a shell smash.
Cotton Guard Milotic is trolltastic though
Cotton Guard Milotic is trolltastic though
Jirachi @ King's Rock
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Beat Up
- Sacred Fire
- Thunder Wave
- U-turn
Serene Grace, King's Rock, Beat Up 75% Flinch chance
Seaking @ Leftovers
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Electrify
- Substitute
- Scald
- Ice Beam
Fear the ultimate form
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Electrify
- Substitute
- Scald
- Ice Beam
Fear the ultimate form
That thing's too slow to actually be dangerous. So it's not that much of a threat
So obviously this has been dead since over a year ago, but now that we're here and we have ORAS, Mega Pidgeot can run its old Genesect Inheritance set.
Pidgeot-Mega @ Pidgeotite
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hurricane
- Zap Cannon
- Blizzard
- U-turn / Roost
Yeah, it lacks Download, but Hurricane/Zap Cannon/Blizzard coverage is still bonkers. Hell, this sort of thing got banned in Mix-and-Mega. Maybe this gets locked, maybe it doesn't, but I'd like to at least try this, and I'd need more people around to do that.
Pidgeot-Mega @ Pidgeotite
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hurricane
- Zap Cannon
- Blizzard
- U-turn / Roost
Yeah, it lacks Download, but Hurricane/Zap Cannon/Blizzard coverage is still bonkers. Hell, this sort of thing got banned in Mix-and-Mega. Maybe this gets locked, maybe it doesn't, but I'd like to at least try this, and I'd need more people around to do that.
There are probably too many hazers around, otherwise I would suggest Cosmic Power would go well with Battle Armor. (For the ultimate gimmick, Stored Power and Miracle Eye too. All via Skorupi of course.)
Mienshao @ Lum Berry / Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
252 SpA / 252 Spe / 4 HP
Timid Nature
-Calm Mind
-Aura Sphere / Focus Blast
-Oblivion Wing
-Light of Ruin
Imagine the Salamences switching in to absorb HJK, only to be blown up by Light of Ruin.
Ability: Regenerator
252 SpA / 252 Spe / 4 HP
Timid Nature
-Calm Mind
-Aura Sphere / Focus Blast
-Oblivion Wing
-Light of Ruin
Imagine the Salamences switching in to absorb HJK, only to be blown up by Light of Ruin.
Because Light of Ruin is a Recoil move, wouldn't Reckless be an superior option? You won't be needing Regenerator if you'll be setting up CMs.
Damn, I wish I had discovered this earlier! What a cool idea!
Medicham @ Medichamite
Ability: Pure Power
4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- High Jump Kick
- Psycho Cut
- Bullet Punch
- Play Rough
Oh, you think you can wall me with Mega Sableye? That's just adorable.
Also, this might be a bit of a long shot, but I can see Machamp using a pretty satisfying setup sweeper set with Hypnosis (+ No Guard) and Agility.
Medicham @ Medichamite
Ability: Pure Power
4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- High Jump Kick
- Psycho Cut
- Bullet Punch
- Play Rough
Oh, you think you can wall me with Mega Sableye? That's just adorable.
Also, this might be a bit of a long shot, but I can see Machamp using a pretty satisfying setup sweeper set with Hypnosis (+ No Guard) and Agility.
Wobbuffet @ Leftovers
Ability: Shadow Tag
32 HP / 252 Def / 224 SpD
Bold Nature
-Counter
-Mirror Coat
-Encore
-Heal Order / Parting Shot
Giving Wobbuffet more moves inevitably ends in disaster. HP EVs are distributed to get an extra switch into Stealth Rocks.
Breloom @ Choice Band
Ability: Technician
252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 HP
Adamant Nature
-Mach Punch
-Ice Shard
-Bullet Seed
-Stone Edge
Yay, more priority!
Ninjask @ Leftovers
Ability: Speed Boost
248 Atk / 252 Spe / 8 HP
Jolly Nature
-Substitute
-Aqua Ring / Sacred Fire
-Protect / Dragon Ascent
-Baton Pass
Way more opportunities to mess with peeps trying to counter its passing. Fully invest in bulk if running Aqua Ring + Protect.
Serperior @ Life Orb
Ability: Contrary
252 SpA / 252 Spe / 4 HP
Timid / Hasty Nature
-Leaf Storm
-V-Create / Overheat
-Giga Drain / Oblivion Wing
-Aeroblast / Ice Beam / Dragon Ascent
Has a range of options for coverage moves - V-Create boosts bulk and speed while Overheat helps with getting more Special Attack. Giga Drain is stronger and Oblivion Wing has more coverage and heals more on a neutral hit. Aeroblast is a strong neutral attack against most Fire- and Dragon-Types, Ice Beam hits the latter harder and Dragon Ascent can be used to boost bulk if V-Create is not chosen.
Ability: Shadow Tag
32 HP / 252 Def / 224 SpD
Bold Nature
-Counter
-Mirror Coat
-Encore
-Heal Order / Parting Shot
Giving Wobbuffet more moves inevitably ends in disaster. HP EVs are distributed to get an extra switch into Stealth Rocks.
Breloom @ Choice Band
Ability: Technician
252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 HP
Adamant Nature
-Mach Punch
-Ice Shard
-Bullet Seed
-Stone Edge
Yay, more priority!
Ninjask @ Leftovers
Ability: Speed Boost
248 Atk / 252 Spe / 8 HP
Jolly Nature
-Substitute
-Aqua Ring / Sacred Fire
-Protect / Dragon Ascent
-Baton Pass
Way more opportunities to mess with peeps trying to counter its passing. Fully invest in bulk if running Aqua Ring + Protect.
Serperior @ Life Orb
Ability: Contrary
252 SpA / 252 Spe / 4 HP
Timid / Hasty Nature
-Leaf Storm
-V-Create / Overheat
-Giga Drain / Oblivion Wing
-Aeroblast / Ice Beam / Dragon Ascent
Has a range of options for coverage moves - V-Create boosts bulk and speed while Overheat helps with getting more Special Attack. Giga Drain is stronger and Oblivion Wing has more coverage and heals more on a neutral hit. Aeroblast is a strong neutral attack against most Fire- and Dragon-Types, Ice Beam hits the latter harder and Dragon Ascent can be used to boost bulk if V-Create is not chosen.
My first impulse was to think this is a dumb meta no one should ever play.
Then I realized it's actually really awesome. And terrifying. Serperior with V-Create and Overheat and Oblivion Wing and...
Here's some points to consider.
Flying weakness provides reliable recovery, as well as the best leeching move in the game if you're a Special attacker. It is one of only two possible weaknesses (Outside of Inverse) to provide on-demand recovery. It also provides a diversity of Defoggers, with by far the most notable point being that every Fighting type not protected from Flying by a secondary type is a Defogger that resists Stealth Rock -not to mention can break Bisharp in half, resisting its Sucker Punch. If you've got Mach Punch, you're the ultimate screw-you to Bisharp. Bug and Grass types are less notable, but still worth remembering. Mirror Move is a gimmick to keep in mind -Whimsicott can immediately imitate almost anything you do at +1 priority, if it feels like it.
Bug weakness is the other source of reliable recovery. It also provides the single biggest Special Attack boosting move in the entire game,Cosmic Power Defend Order for many stallmons (Mega Slowbro says hi), one of the best Special boosting moves in general (Quiver Dance), Sticky Web, and widespread U-Turn.
Grass weakness is one of two sources of semi-reliable recovery, in the form of Synthesis, but it also provides Leech Seed, Giga Drain, and Horn Leech, meaning healing options for all! It also provides Spore, of course, Ability suppression in the form of Worry Seed (Which can also negate Rest-based shenanigans), Cotton Guard for bolstering you Defense insanely, and a shocking number of very powerful moves... attached to the Grass type admittedly.
Fairy weakness is the other semi-reliable recovery, in the form of Moonlight. More alarmingly, Geomancy!... too bad most Fighting types prefer Physical. As do most Dark types. And most Dragons. But for the exceptions, such as the Latis, that could be terrifying.
Psychic weakness is a ridiculous toolbox. Many Poison and Fighting types have picked up: Lunar Dance, Cosmic Power, Trick Room (!), Calm Mind, Gravity, Guard Split, Heart Swap, Power Split, Power Trick, Agility, Trick, Synchronoise is kind of neat since anything you can use it on is basically by definition vulnerable, Reflect, Light Screen, Role Play, Skill Swap, Stored power, Mirror Coat, Imprison, Hypnosis where it matters, Magic Room...
Dragon means literally every Dragon except Dialga (Not weak, doesn't have it natively) has Dragon Dance. So that's cool. Those Dragons that lack Dragon Tail also gain it, which is cool.
---
Here's a question: what about Pokemon that change type as they evolve? Does Lucario have access to Psychic, Fairy, and Flying moves even though it's weak to none of those because Riolu is weak to all of them?
In any event Heart Swap Riolu amuses me as a potential counter-sweeper against the ridiculous setupmons that are going to exist.
Then I realized it's actually really awesome. And terrifying. Serperior with V-Create and Overheat and Oblivion Wing and...
Here's some points to consider.
Flying weakness provides reliable recovery, as well as the best leeching move in the game if you're a Special attacker. It is one of only two possible weaknesses (Outside of Inverse) to provide on-demand recovery. It also provides a diversity of Defoggers, with by far the most notable point being that every Fighting type not protected from Flying by a secondary type is a Defogger that resists Stealth Rock -not to mention can break Bisharp in half, resisting its Sucker Punch. If you've got Mach Punch, you're the ultimate screw-you to Bisharp. Bug and Grass types are less notable, but still worth remembering. Mirror Move is a gimmick to keep in mind -Whimsicott can immediately imitate almost anything you do at +1 priority, if it feels like it.
Bug weakness is the other source of reliable recovery. It also provides the single biggest Special Attack boosting move in the entire game,
Grass weakness is one of two sources of semi-reliable recovery, in the form of Synthesis, but it also provides Leech Seed, Giga Drain, and Horn Leech, meaning healing options for all! It also provides Spore, of course, Ability suppression in the form of Worry Seed (Which can also negate Rest-based shenanigans), Cotton Guard for bolstering you Defense insanely, and a shocking number of very powerful moves... attached to the Grass type admittedly.
Fairy weakness is the other semi-reliable recovery, in the form of Moonlight. More alarmingly, Geomancy!... too bad most Fighting types prefer Physical. As do most Dark types. And most Dragons. But for the exceptions, such as the Latis, that could be terrifying.
Psychic weakness is a ridiculous toolbox. Many Poison and Fighting types have picked up: Lunar Dance, Cosmic Power, Trick Room (!), Calm Mind, Gravity, Guard Split, Heart Swap, Power Split, Power Trick, Agility, Trick, Synchronoise is kind of neat since anything you can use it on is basically by definition vulnerable, Reflect, Light Screen, Role Play, Skill Swap, Stored power, Mirror Coat, Imprison, Hypnosis where it matters, Magic Room...
Dragon means literally every Dragon except Dialga (Not weak, doesn't have it natively) has Dragon Dance. So that's cool. Those Dragons that lack Dragon Tail also gain it, which is cool.
---
Here's a question: what about Pokemon that change type as they evolve? Does Lucario have access to Psychic, Fairy, and Flying moves even though it's weak to none of those because Riolu is weak to all of them?
In any event Heart Swap Riolu amuses me as a potential counter-sweeper against the ridiculous setupmons that are going to exist.
Yes.
Scizor gains a few fun moves:
>V-Create
>Flame Charge
>Will-O-Wisp
>Bolt Strike
>Thunder Wave
>Ice Shard
>Haze
>Stealth Rock
>Rock Blast
>Stone Edge
>Dragon Ascent
>Tailwind
Thanks, Scyther.
>V-Create
>Flame Charge
>Will-O-Wisp
>Bolt Strike
>Thunder Wave
>Ice Shard
>Haze
>Stealth Rock
>Rock Blast
>Stone Edge
>Dragon Ascent
>Tailwind
Thanks, Scyther.
And also Volt Tackle coverage.
Few other thoughts:
- IDK if anyone has mentioned this yet, but Staraptor is actually a pretty terrifying wallbreaker now with Reckless-boosted Head Smash and Volt Tackle.
- Barbaracle is going to love having more reliable Fighting coverage, especially since most Physical Fighting moves are boosted by Tough Claws. Also, Bolt Strike and Power Whip, if you're so inclined.
- You thought Mega Metagross was scary before? Now it gets (Tough Claws-boosted) Knock Off and Sucker Punch. And Will-o-Wisp. And Drill Run, which is actually slightly stronger than Earthquake with Tough Claws factored in.
- IDK if anyone has mentioned this yet, but Staraptor is actually a pretty terrifying wallbreaker now with Reckless-boosted Head Smash and Volt Tackle.
- Barbaracle is going to love having more reliable Fighting coverage, especially since most Physical Fighting moves are boosted by Tough Claws. Also, Bolt Strike and Power Whip, if you're so inclined.
- You thought Mega Metagross was scary before? Now it gets (Tough Claws-boosted) Knock Off and Sucker Punch. And Will-o-Wisp. And Drill Run, which is actually slightly stronger than Earthquake with Tough Claws factored in.
Granbull @ Life Orb / Toxic Orb
252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 HP
Jolly Nature
Ability: Quick Feet
-Shift Gear
-Play Rough
-Earthquake
-Stone Edge/Wild Charge
Finally no longer held back by its poor speed.
Alakazam now gets Dark Void, basically making it like a wierd version of Darkrai. It can even U-Turn out of danger (which Darkrai could do as well). Furthermore, it can be tricky with access to Destiny Bond and Memento.
252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 HP
Jolly Nature
Ability: Quick Feet
-Shift Gear
-Play Rough
-Earthquake
-Stone Edge/Wild Charge
Finally no longer held back by its poor speed.
Alakazam now gets Dark Void, basically making it like a wierd version of Darkrai. It can even U-Turn out of danger (which Darkrai could do as well). Furthermore, it can be tricky with access to Destiny Bond and Memento.
Sub-question: What about Pokemon that can change Form(e)s? Can Shaymin learn Rock moves because it's Sky Forme is weak to Rock? Does Rotom get ALL the moves? If yes, does this apply to in-battle Form(e) changes too, such as Meloetta gaining access to Flying, Psychic, and Fairy moves due to its Pirouette Forme being weak to those? (Would Darmanitan have to be running Zen Mode as its Ability to get Dark and Ghost moves, if so?)
Also, is this only released moves? The OP doesn't say either way. (Really, the OP could stand to be improved in general)
---
The rest of the types.
Steel weakness is an interesting grab bag of options, but the four big things (Aside from coverage) are: King's Shield, Shift Gear, Metal Burst, and Bullet Punch providing priority. An obvious point off the bat is that most Rock types are weak to Steel and slow and bulky Physical attackers, and so will love Shift Gear. Several Fairies have much worse Defense than Special Defense, and will appreciate King's Shield.
Fire weakness of course provides incredible offensive potential, but Will O Wisp, Sacred Fire, and Mystical Fire are somewhat more interesting with the latter potentially allowing a Physical wall of some sort -say, one of the many Steel types- to hamper attempted Special attacker switch-ins, while spreading Burns is just good stuff all around.
Water weakness is mostly notable for providing priority -too bad no Skill Link Pokemon is weak to Water, otherwise Water Shuriken would be awesome- and providing an excellent option for spreading Burns. (Which isn't very helpful to the Fire types who are included in this number) The coverage is the primary other benefit, in practice.
Electric weakness provides a grab bag of weird utility moves that mostly aren't very useful, alas, but it includes the ability to throw around Paralysis and it's certainly worth commentary that Mega Pidgeot gets Zap Cannon!
Fighting weakness provides: a fixed damage move, the only Special priority in the game, Physical priority, damaging forced-switching, a suicide move that only cares about HP of the user and target, Counter, partial Flying coverage (Flying Press), Bulk Up, Sacred Sword and Storm Throw for bypassing defensive boosting, a leeching move, and of course tons and tons of raw firepower. It's good stuff.
Dark weakness provides the invaluable Knock Off, Nasty Plot as a poor man's Tail Glow, Dark Void, Foul Play (Which is excellent, given how Psychic and Ghost types generally can't pull off a decent Physical move but may appreciate it anyway), Hone Claws for those powerful but inaccurate Physical attacks, Parting Shot (Can even be paired with Prankster and Regenerator!), Topsy-Turvy (Again, Prankster), the strongest priority that can be passed out by Super Effectivemons, Taunt, Switcheroo... oh, and there's the actual coverage component too.
Poison weakness gives Fairies and Grass types relatively widespread access to Toxic Spikes, Gastro Acid (So for instance Clefable can suppress Mega Gyarados' Mold Breaker, denying it the ability to boost past it), Coil (Now if only more of the two types are Physically oriented...), Acid Spray (An excellent tool for ruining Clefable, for one) and of course coverage.
Ice weakness provides priority, Haze (Prankster Haze from Whimsicott can be used as a form of anti-setup), Glaciate should always be taken over icy Wind (Well, not for Technician Roserade or Technician Breloom), Freeze Dry, Frost Breath to push past defensive boosting, Mist for protecting from stat reduction if you think it's worth the move slot/turn, and of course coverage.
Ghost weakness almost universally overlaps with Dark weakness in occurring, and as coverage runs into the flaw that you'd usually rather use Dark for coverage for a few different reasons. It does, however, slightly help a few Ghosts -Golurk can run Shadow Claw instead of Shadow Punch, for instance- and it does provide priority that doesn't require the enemy is attacking, Curse for Physical boosting if you can't get Bulk Up, a fixed damage move for stallmons, the obnoxious Destiny Bond, and the quirky Trick Or Treat -combine with Pursuit?
Ground weakness is pretty much entirely coverage, largely. And Spikes. Can't forget Spikes stacking.
Rock weakness of course spreads the Stealth Rock love, but it also provides Speed boosting. (Rock Polish) Mostly it's coverage, but the coverage is hugely improved, with widespread Power Gem access and Diamond Storm access making reliable Rock coverage much more of a thing, coming from Fire, Flying, Bug, and Ice types. Entei certainly appreciates replacing Stone Edge with Diamond Storm.
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Next time I'm liable to look at this from the opposite angle: the "default" intersections... such as how pure Fire is Edgequake all by itself.