Pokémon Starmie [Revamp]

[bludz]

Starmie can use rapid spin while being choiced
I wonder what makes Scarf-Excadrill at rapidspinning better than it; Sure, eq stab and everything.. but starmie also threatens all the spinblockers with a specsed analityc move, a bit of prediction should be there
And scarf Starmie is a good revengekiller in general, kills all the dragons and most boosters, can sponge statuses, and ruin walls with trick.
And btw, the real thing is realizing how strong starmie is: the specsed HydroPumps are too strong, and forcing switches out having analytic is even better, HPump reaches too high levels, and Ice Beam/Psyshok 2HKOs everything supposed to tank the pumps (
Nvm, do what you want, a set should be put forward and analyzed if it has some characteristics and uses that make it cool: pokemon battling is not about two or three sets. This is a waste to the offensive machine that is Starmie, who can also OHKO venusaur, attempt at killing Chansey after rocks and some residual damage, and many other thing water types can only dream of.

The reason people run Rapid Spin on Scarf Excadrill is because it doesn't really have a great 4th coverage move and its speed isn't that great. Often times it forces a switch and then you get the Rapid Spin off. Also Mold Breaker scares Gengars that want to spin block in case you go for EQ. Personally I'm not that big of a fan of Scarf Drill running Rapid Spin since you have to switch out afterwards every time.

Starmie is already quite fast so it can threaten many things and Rapid Spin anyway. Gengar can spin block you but you naturally outspeed and ohko with Psyshock anyway.

If you run Rapid Spin on a choice set, you either forgo Trick -- one of the main reasons to run choice -- or coverage. LO gives you nearly as much of a boost as Specs with the ability to change moves (COVERAGE !! part of the reason why Starmie is good!), and what significant theats are you outrunning with a Scarf? Scarf Latios and Gengar aren't that common so it's really just for Scarf Keldeo which is seriously just asking Bisharp or TTar to come in on your Psyshock. Locking yourself into Rapid Spin is total pursuit bait too.

I'm a big fan of Starmie and I loved it back in the days of DPP, when its choice sets were not only viable but even somewhat common. But in the current metagame I see its choice sets pretty much being outclassed by Keldeo

PS I'm not a fan of shutting down new ideas. I'm not saying all this just because I think everyone needs to think inside the box and run cookie cutter sets all the time, but I genuinely believe that choiced Starmie is outclassed by other pokemon and has a great niche and speed tier as a spinner that can switch moves.

 

[Karxrida]

The reason people run Rapid Spin on Scarf Excadrill is because it doesn't really have a great 4th coverage move and its speed isn't that great. Often times it forces a switch and then you get the Rapid Spin off. Also Mold Breaker scares Gengars that want to spin block in case you go for EQ. Personally I'm not that big of a fan of Scarf Drill running Rapid Spin since you have to switch out afterwards every time.

Starmie is already quite fast so it can threaten many things and Rapid Spin anyway. Gengar can spin block you but you naturally outspeed and ohko with Psyshock anyway.

If you run Rapid Spin on a choice set, you either forgo Trick -- one of the main reasons to run choice -- or coverage. LO gives you nearly as much of a boost as Specs with the ability to change moves (COVERAGE !! part of the reason why Starmie is good!), and what significant theats are you outrunning with a Scarf? Scarf Latios and Gengar aren't that common so it's really just for Scarf Keldeo which is seriously just asking Bisharp or TTar to come in on your Psyshock. Locking yourself into Rapid Spin is total pursuit bait too.

I'm a big fan of Starmie and I loved it back in the days of DPP, when its choice sets were not only viable but even somewhat common. But in the current metagame I see its choice sets pretty much being outclassed by Keldeo

PS I'm not a fan of shutting down new ideas. I'm not saying all this just because I think everyone needs to think inside the box and run cookie cutter sets all the time, but I genuinely believe that choiced Starmie is outclassed by other pokemon and has a great niche and speed tier as a spinner that can switch moves.

Gengar can only Spinblock exactly once if you're super ballsy and switch in on a Rapid Spin. It then dies to Psyshock, but that can be enough to allow an offensive team to throw out something that can kill Starmie before it is able to spin (like Bisharp with the threat of Sucker Punch).

 

[AM]

Someone just posted before I got to finish this so may or may not have repeated some stuff.

Starmie can use rapid spin while being choiced
I wonder what makes Scarf-Excadrill at rapidspinning better than it; Sure, eq stab and everything.. but starmie also threatens all the spinblockers with a specsed analityc move, a bit of prediction should be there
And scarf Starmie is a good revengekiller in general, kills all the dragons and most boosters, can sponge statuses, and ruin walls with trick.
And btw, the real thing is realizing how strong starmie is: the specsed HydroPumps are too strong, and forcing switches out having analytic is even better, HPump reaches too high levels, and Ice Beam/Psyshok 2HKOs everything supposed to tank the pumps (
Nvm, do what you want, a set should be put forward and analyzed if it has some characteristics and uses that make it cool: pokemon battling is not about two or three sets. This is a waste to the offensive machine that is Starmie, who can also OHKO venusaur, attempt at killing Chansey after rocks and some residual damage, and many other thing water types can only dream of.

Well the thing is...Scarf Excadrill is pretty ass. I mean someone can use all the justification they want but at the end of the day it's one of Excadrill's most mediocre if not outright bad sets, mostly from the perspective as a spinner as well. Pokemon battling isn't about two or three sets it's about what is effective and in a general sense it's two variations with several options in regards to its offensive set while its defensive set is pretty cut and dry, on the topic of Starmie of course. The slashes I think are fine for the purpose of this thread but I feel like there's just way too many in there. On the offensive set Water STAB and Rapid Spin are generally the necessities. After that the last two options are team dependent with what you have along with Grass Knot. I'm also agreeing with StarmeiTheGod on making a mention of max speed on Reflect Type Starmie because it gives you a better match-up against Magnezone and Raikou. Don't make it the main spread but emphasize on its relevancy.

Is Expert Belt somewhat viable on the offensive set? I'm not sure it is, but it can bluff a choiced set (even though they're not quite viable for Starmie), won't make it lose HP everytime it attacks (I know Starmie is not the bulkiest of mons so this argument is probably irrelevant, but oh well) and still makes Starmie hit kinda hard with super effective moves and/or on the switch. On the other hand, 299 SpAtk (298 with HP Fire) is not that mighty compared to other mons in the OU metagame, so Starmie probably needs all the power it can get with Life Orb to be effective, right?

Also, I don't fully understand the EV spread for the Reflect Type set. Would someone be kind enough to explain it to me?

Tried the Expert Belt, it's a lot of power you're losing on Starmie that makes its offensive set a threat in the first place. You're not gonna really bluff a choice item in most cases because choice items are extremely mediocre for Starmie considering its two most practical sets are Life Orb Attacker and Defensive set. If you're worried about Life Orb recoil either stick to the defensive set or go Psyshock, Hydro Pump, Recover, Rapid Spin with Life Orb as it's a really nice set as well.

 

[bludz]

Gengar can only Spinblock exactly once if you're super ballsy and switch in on a Rapid Spin. It then dies to Psyshock, but that can be enough to allow an offensive team to throw out something that can kill Starmie before it is able to spin (like Bisharp with the threat of Sucker Punch).

That is true but I think a good player will go for Hydro Pump against Gengar since it should still knock it out if he did stay in, but more likely slams a switch in like Bisharp or TTar. Kinda besides the point, I was basically just saying the ability to switch moves is pretty crucial

 

[master_marshmallow]

Is Psychic being over looked or is it truly not viable compared to Psyshock?

I have heard good things about a starmie wall with Cosmic Power and Recover, but I have never seen it in actual use.

 

[Karxrida]

Is Psychic being over looked or is it truly not viable compared to Psyshock?

I have heard good things about a starmie wall with Cosmic Power and Recover, but I have never seen it in actual use.

Psyshock actually does something to Chansey and makes dealing with Calm Mind Keldeo easier if it somehow got more than one boost.

Also don't run Cosmic Power. It's shit against bulky teams because they proceed to not give a fuck about your boosted defenses and you're not hard to wall.

 

[AM]

Is Psychic being over looked or is it truly not viable compared to Psyshock?

I have heard good things about a starmie wall with Cosmic Power and Recover, but I have never seen it in actual use.

Cosmic power is a pretty gimmicky set on the same level of Cosmic power Clefable and isn't actually good outside of beating low ladder players most times. Psychic is viable in a sense that you hit stuff like M-Venusaur, who sometimes run defense, a bit harder. You just miss out on hitting Special Walls hard as well as not having the benefit of bypassing Calm Mind boosters such as Clefable. Those are reasons why Psyshock is usually better.

 

[MrAldo]

The slashes I think are fine for the purpose of this thread but I feel like there's just way too many in there. On the offensive set Water STAB and Rapid Spin are generally the necessities. After that the last two options are team dependent with what you have along with Grass Knot. I'm also agreeing with StarmeiTheGod on making a mention of max speed on Reflect Type Starmie because it gives you a better match-up against Magnezone and Raikou. Don't make it the main spread but emphasize on its relevancy.

Decided to keep 3 slashes at most on the moveset and bold viable options on the comments section so the moveset doesnt look so overloaded. Gave a mention to a max speed EV spread on the reflect type moveset as well.

Thanks a lot for the insight. Implemented.

 

[Jaguar360]

Remove Dazzling Gleam from notable moves, as a neutral Hydro Pump hits Dark-types harder.

Choiced isn't good, since Starmie has great coverage it wants to abuse and Trick gives you massive 4MSS.

A bit late on this, but Dazzling Gleam has the merit of accuracy, meaning that it is more reliable than Hydro Pump at 2HKOing Mega Sableye even if it is a tad weaker. It also hits Dragon types, which is useful since you can't really run Ice Beam and Dazzling Gleam at the same time and hits Mega Gyarados as well. I think it's worth a mention in the notable moves again.

 

[master_marshmallow]

A bit late on this, but Dazzling Gleam has the merit of accuracy, meaning that it is more reliable than Hydro Pump at 2HKOing Mega Sableye even if it is a tad weaker. It also hits Dragon types, which is useful since you can't really run Ice Beam and Dazzling Gleam at the same time and hits Mega Gyarados as well. I think it's worth a mention in the notable moves again.

Pretty much this, if sable didn't exist the argument would be different. I think it also has some hax associated with it but idr because I'm always using something with moon.
Dazzling can be run in place of psychic STAB imo because it gives better coverage against things like sable, all fighting types that aren't Lucario, and dragons, which coincidentally frees up the Ice Beam slot for something else.
Hydro Pump does more damage, and is STAB, but it's not very spammable against sable, and he can pp stall you with Recover. On mobile right now so I don't have access to relevant calcs, but I believe both are guaranteed 2hko moves on sable.

 

[AM]

If you really needed to hit those you mentioned, M-Gyarados, Dragons, M-Sableye you're still better off using standard sets just with Hydro Pump, Ice Beam, Tbolt, Rapid Spin. Starmie isn't gonna handle every single thing at a time and using Starmie as your M-Sableye answer / check is just poor building to begin with. Not like you guys were implying this but more so of the fact that Dazzling Gleam is a very niche move on it that's not even worthwhile in the long run.

 

[Jaguar360]

If you really needed to hit those you mentioned, M-Gyarados, Dragons, M-Sableye you're still better off using standard sets just with Hydro Pump, Ice Beam, Tbolt, Rapid Spin. Starmie isn't gonna handle every single thing at a time and using Starmie as your M-Sableye answer / check is just poor building to begin with. Not like you guys were implying this but more so of the fact that Dazzling Gleam is a very niche move on it that's not even worthwhile in the long run.

The main reason why I focus on Mega Sableye so much is because it's the best spinblocker in the tier and Starmie is the only one that can beat it through raw power. Dazzling Gleam helps with this a lot, even though Hydro Pump is perfectly capable of doing so as well. Hydro Pump / Psyshock / Dazzling Gleam / Rapid Spin has been very effective from my experience; Ferrothorn and Empoleon are problems, but the other SR setters are beaten for the most part and, as said previously, it beats spinblockers. You're still a great threat to every Pokemon with base 110 speed and get good coverage as a whole.

Obviously, Dazzling Gleam is far from necessary, but its uses in anti-spinblocking and solid coverage should not be ignored.

 

[AM]

The main reason why I focus on Mega Sableye so much is because it's the best spinblocker in the tier and Starmie is the only one that can beat it through raw power. Dazzling Gleam helps with this a lot, even though Hydro Pump is perfectly capable of doing so as well. Hydro Pump / Psyshock / Dazzling Gleam / Rapid Spin has been very effective from my experience; Ferrothorn and Empoleon are problems, but the other SR setters are beaten for the most part and, as said previously, it beats spinblockers. You're still a great threat to every Pokemon with base 110 speed and get good coverage as a whole.

Obviously, Dazzling Gleam is far from necessary, but its uses in anti-spinblocking and solid coverage should not be ignored.

Yeah but the point being is that M-Sableye doesn't even want to be switching into Starmie in the first place either due to fear from Analytic Hydro Pumps, even Hydro Pump in general since they have equal power with a slight difference due to typing, or just Scald burns on its defensive set. Then you have Gengar who is frail as shit and doesn't even want to be taking attacks even more than M-Sableye lol. I guess you have Doublade and Cofagrigus as other spinblockers even though their usage isn't that high but comes back to all these spin blockers being plagued by the issues M-Sableye has in switching in. Most offensive Starmies are found on offensive builds to begin with that put enough pressure and will have answers to M-Sableye itself or apply enough pressure that it's forced to go on an extreme defensive role that can be taken advantage of. Then you have the Defensive set which sure you can go ahead and switch on it to spinblock but M-Sableye absolutely hates status and Scald will pretty much net you one burn per match at the very least, one of these easy to get on M-Sableye. M-Sableye can recover the damage but this is just forcing it into situations where the team is just dependent on that and Starmie just keeps hitting it over and over again, until it gets its results. It also comes back to how both teams are built anyways but the point being is that as much as M-Sableye is a spin-blocker Starmie has the tools already without Dazzling Gleam to gain the advantage against it.

 

[Celio]

True, your two sets cover most of what is needed about starmie;
I'm just saying that it seems as you only want to consider them, while putting shadow over the rest of usable and strong sets (specs starmie is soooo unexpected)
There is not even a suggestion at the end of the text where you say ''starmie could more things, aanalytic specs for example, but we consider them ineffective: maybe you think differently, so let me atleast tell you about them''
And specsmie was actually pretty strong, in the dp era, and bw too, why would you blind it.

 

[Red King]

right now the biggest thing that annoys me about starmie is how stupidly heavy it is. it outweighs slowbro. slllowwwbrrrooo. ._. which means mega metagross knocks it out with grass knot. which sucks because otherwise it would be a a great check to it. ugh. anyway it does stare down pokemon like mega sableye and gengar that try to spinblock it thanks to analytic and it's speed. dazzlinggleam as AM stated not required. starmie is pretty cool, but a lot of people seem to think it's bulkier than it really is. it gets away with a lot thanks to reflect type, scald and speedy recovers, but seriously. stored power? Starmie functions as an offensive check to most of the pokemon mentioned, not a wall. don't discount the amount of switches forced with that coverage as well as analytic. it's great for breaking down those switch ins with analytic power boosts. although it's not some massive buff especially since starmie's special attack is kinda low it is sizable chip.

 

[Jojobobo]

Just fought the Reflect Type set - certainly did a number on me. I was put in a situation where my Azumarill had been ground down far enough so I couldn't Belly Drum, so Reflect Type really did a number on me seeing I was running Knock Off over Play Rough. Followed up by the Scald burn it was toast for me.

 

[Mitchhhhhh]

Just fought the Reflect Type set - certainly did a number on me. I was put in a situation where my Azumarill had been ground down far enough so I couldn't Belly Drum, so Reflect Type really did a number on me seeing I was running Knock Off over Play Rough. Followed up by the Scald burn it was toast for me.

Why would you ever not run Play Rough on any Azumarill set though?

 

[AM]

Why would you ever not run Play Rough on any Azumarill set though?

Obviously it's an Azumarill who has a gentle soul. Don't hate the player hate the game (this really is Pokemon lol)

In related news I've been enjoying Life Orb recover and dual STAB sets on 'defensive' Starmie which I feel at least the latter is a bit more effective in the metagame due to Keldeo usage.

 

[pika pal]

Should be noted, Hydro Pump hits Base 165 on neutral targets with STAB, so Dazzling Gleam is practically never worth it bar 4x targets.

Essentially, Starmie's coverage moves should be chosen on the basis of targets resisting its STABs, rather than what it can hit super-effectively. I'd personally err on Thunderbolt right now, since the only Grass Types I immediately think of in OU are weak to Psyshock (Venusaur, Breloom, not sure how Chesnaught fares), and bulky water types like Slowbro are a pain to be stopped by. Ice Beam might be helpful for certain Dragons, particularly the Lati's, but considering Starmie's purpose is to get hazards off the field, that job nonetheless happens while giving you the chance to switch to Bisharp or a Pursuit trapper.

 

[Kurona]

Well I mean... if you really have no answer to Hydreigon, Dazzling Gleam could be a fun lure.

 

[boltsandbombers]

Well I mean... if you really have no answer to Hydreigon, Dazzling Gleam could be a fun lure.

I mean, Ice Beam picks it off after a small bit of prior damage and it also hits Celebi as well as the lati twins.

It's getting kinda hard to find a good reason to use dazzling gleam lol

 

[timespell]

starmie has a great movepool and ends up outspeeding most of ou, but 60 hp is just not good enough to be a good rapid spinner, excadrill has base 110 hp almost twice as much as starmie

 

[Mitchhhhhh]

starmie has a great movepool and ends up outspeeding most of ou, but 60 hp is just not good enough to be a good rapid spinner, excadrill has base 110 hp almost twice as much as starmie

So? Excadrill has 110/60/65 defensive stats, Starmie has 60/85/85 and more importantly 115 speed and access to recovery.

Starmie is a whole lot more splashable in the current meta than Excadrill imo (who's best set right now is imo the Sand Rush set which doesn't even always use Rapid Spin).

 

[timespell]

So? Excadrill has 110/60/65 defensive stats, Starmie has 60/85/85 and more importantly 115 speed and access to recovery.

Starmie is a whole lot more splashable in the current meta than Excadrill imo (who's best set right now is imo the Sand Rush set which doesn't even always use Rapid Spin).

yes but we are talking about starmie here, who cant even bulk super effective hits for jack, say a volt switch from a no spa ev zapdos will do over half and there's no point recovering there.

 

[Mitchhhhhh]

yes but we are talking about starmie here, who cant even bulk super effective hits for jack, say a volt switch from a no spa ev zapdos will do over half and there's no point recovering there.

In case you're not trolling:

Hide

0 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 350-414 (96.9 - 114.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

0 Atk Tangrowth Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill: 216-256 (59.8 - 70.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Clefable Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 214-254 (59.2 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

68 SpA Zapdos Heat Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 248-294 (68.6 - 81.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Also, idk why tanking super effective hits is the norm... Starmie also has a far bigger chance of being able to spin in a pinch as it outspeeds almost the entire unboosted meta whereas Excadrill has rather mediocre speed without Sand Rush in sand.