Ladder STABmons [OMotM November]

[baconbagon]

I was going to wait until Open finished to bring this up, but I feel pretty strongly about this. For me, I find Shift Gear to be an extremely broken move. It elevates Mega Scizor, Scizor, Jirachi, Excadrill, and even Bisharp to incredibly dangerous levels, and it heavily constricts teambuilding in the metagame. I often find myself needing to bring a Vacuum Wave Keldeo, a Sucker Punch Hoopa-U, and a King's Shield Heatran, which tends to be really inconvenient when I'm trying to build a flexible offense. I also don't want Scizorite and Jirachi bans, because I feel like Shift Gear is the root of the problem here and all these Pokemon bans feels really excessive. These Steel-types can even be used on the same team, and run lure sets or Swords Dance over Shift Gear to KO or weaken generally popular 'Shift Gear counters' (Grass Knot Bisharp, Swords Dance Bisharp, Icy Wind + Energy Ball Jirachi).

 

[skies]

At first, I was severely against the Shift Gear ban. However, as the metagame as progressed, I'm very pro-ban now. Jirachi is just so incredibly stupid at +2 Speed, and the ability to switch moves. Choice Scarf has issues like not being able to switch moves and still not outspeeding some things at +1. All of that is fixed with Shift Gear. Mega Scizor was about to be banned before the change anyways, so I think it should cleanly be revisited. I don't see a metagame without Shift Gear being any less enjoyable; in fact, I think it makes the metagame more diverse.

Don't think Lovely Kiss is broken, I just think Lopunnite is broken. I think Lovely Kiss is so viable on it because of how goddamn fast it is. Nothing else gets such a great Speed tier and abuses it. Sure Lovely Kiss Porygon-Z / Ursaring can ocasionaly be annoying, but it doesn't lose you games like it does when used with Mega Lopunny. +1 banning Mega Lopunny, -1 banning Lovely Kiss from me.

 

[Funbot28]

Moves:

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I am not to sold on the idea of banning Lovely Kiss really. Yes its annoying when wallbreakers such as Mega Lopunny, Porgon-Z and Kangaskhan put mons to sleep, but in essence they lose out on vital coverage and must rely on an seemingly inaccurate 75% move to work. And when compared to old Dark Void users (Sableye, Weavile, Hoopa-U) they could afford to lose a slot for coverage thanks to them not needing to boost their stats in order for them to be threatening. I can see where this sentiment is coming from, but at the end of the day Spore is an equally annoying move (Grass immunity = low accuracy imo) and I believe that certain normal mons can't afford to run the move due to them being pressed for other options.

Now Shift Gear is a move that definitely needs to go. Boosting +1 Attack and +2 Speed in one turn is pretty absurd. There are plenty of viable pokemon that can run it (Mega Scizor, Excadrill, and Jirachi), and I feel the move is what pushes these mons over the edge. It also becomes extremely difficult to check these mons after even one turn os setup due to their Steel typing resisting priority such as Fake Speed and Ice Shard. Unfixable summed up all my points really, Shift Gear is really borked atm. Maybe a Mega Metagross retest can happen after it is potentially banned (although kinda unlikely due to Heavy Slam still destroying lives).

Pokemon:

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Both these mons should not be banned it Shift Gear is banned instead, as it is the only reason why they are so amazing atm anyways. I feel its just common sense, but if others want an explanation I would gladly give one.

Tbh, at first I was all for a Mega Lopunny ban, But after the meta progressed after the change I felt that Mega Lopunny was just an amazing mon instead of a broken one. A lot of people on PS have been comparing it to Diggersby in which they are not entirely wrong, but they kinda over exaggerate its offensive capabilties. For starters, Mega Lopunny takes up your teams Mega Slot and is forced to run a non-beneficial item, in which Diggersby could have been run alongside with powerful Mega Pokemon such as Mega Charizard-Y and Mega Altaria, and it could have also run damage boosting items such as Life Orb or Choice Band. Another mis-comparison is the power output between the two, Diggersby was extremely powerful factoring in Huge Power and a boosting item, when Mega Lopunny (albeit still strong) often cannot get the 2HKOes and OHKOes that Diggersby use to acheive. Mega Lopunny also seems pressed to run all viable moves at once such as High Jump Kick, Extreme Speed, Lovely Kiss, Fake Out, and Swords Dance, and missing one of these moves in certain situations can be crucial. Another downside is that it is rather frail and it often requires team support to break through some of the more difficult walls in STABmons (Gyarados, Quagsire, Klefki, Landorus-T and Mega Slowbro/Slowbro. In the end, I feel that there are more threatening pokemon in the current metagame that destroy offense compared to Mega Lopunny (Landorus-T, Kyurem-B, and Heatran) although its amazing, I don't feel to strongly for a ban after the meta has stabilized quite a bit.

TL;DR:
Ban Shift Gear
Don't Ban Lovely Kiss
Don't Ban Mega Scizor and Jirachi
Don't Ban Mega Lopunny
Retest Mega Metagross?? (debatable)

 

[baconbagon]

Retest Mega Metagross?? (debatable)

I actually want this so much, because Mega Metagross is just so fun and usable, but it's still really, really stupid without Shift Gear. Heavy Slam is still insanely powerful, achieving feats such as OHKOing Azumarill and 2HKOing Life Orb Scizor and Porygon2. It still has Thunder Punch, Hammer Arm, Earthquake, Ice Punch, and Grass Knot to get around its 'counters', while Bullet Punch carries so much utility in revenge killing stuff like Mega Lopunny. Mega Metagross probably shouldn't be unbanned but man I really want it to be

To be honest, I'd like to see where Mega Lopunny stands in the meta after (if) Shift Gear is unbanned. Shift Gear Jirachi will probably fall to be replaced by Choice Scarf Jirachi, which takes on Mega Lopunny really well. It's still such a neat all-round Pokemon and 2HKOing Quagsire is really cool. It does struggle with quite a lot of stuff though, especially bulky Fighting resists in general.

We should also look at Kyurem-B after we go through the impending changes: it's just so stupid to be up against once it gets a boost. Offensive DD with Life Orb is ridiculously strong

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 243-289 (69 - 82.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

while SubDD freely sets up on Rotom-W, blocks Thunder Wave, and stops attempts to revenge kill with Fake Out. Roost is also pretty cool, but tbh I haven't been using it much in the pretty offensive metagame.

Shift Gear is absolutely ridiculous though.

 

[Ghoul King]

I would like to point out that a key advantage Mega Lopunny has over Diggersby is that it has perfect coverage in just running Normal STAB+Fighting STAB -so Fakespeed+Close Combat or whatever, and it's good to go. The fourth move can be basically whatever it wants. Diggersby was able to pick and choose what checks/counters didn't beat it post-ORAS, Mega Lopunny doesn't even need to bother, and Lovely Kiss acts as a universal way of pushing past checks/counters since pretty much anything that Lovely Kiss doesn't work on either isn't a counter to Mega Lopunny anyway (Mega Sableye dies readily enough to Scrappy STAB Fighting move, especially backed by Scrappy Fake Out) or isn't remotely viable. (and so still isn't a check or counter to Mega Lopunny) Or run Swords Dance and sweep. Etc.

Any given Diggersby build could be handled by something, and in particular Gengar could at least revenge on non-Scarf builds (Fast Ghosts in general, really, but Gengar is overall more viable than Mismagius), whereas Mega Lopunny doesn't even need anti-Ghost coverage and literally anything that resists Normal is neutral at best to Fighting, so... coverage is for other 'mons. (Oh, and if stuff like Landorus-Therian is really problematic, it still has coverage moves like Ice Punch)

Anyway, the only thing I really have to say is that, yes, Shift Gear is utterly ridiculous, with anything with a decent Speed tier (80~+) able to actually skip Speed investment, turning Shift Gear access into an implicit increase in bulk on your fast sweepers. (just invest in HP) This in turn makes them harder to revenge, with little or no actual cost to their ability to beat checks based on Speed advantage. Since having Shift Gear means being a Steel type and having access to King's Shield, even priority based checks (Most notably Fakespeed) aren't very good at stopping Shift Gear sweeps, since you resist most priority/the best priority and can punish pretty much any priority that isn't Feint or Water Shuriken by King's Shielding it and continuing with the sweep. Quagsire helps check these shenanigans (Resists Steel, ignores boosting), but for instance Jirachi can flinchhax it to death with Zen Headbutt reasonably reliably, so it's not a reliable check to Shift Gear sweeps, even with some of the more egregious things already removed. (eg no more Dark Void Shift Gear Bisharp)

 

[Mr Spaz]

What about Magnet Rise Rotom-Fan with Air Balloon? That just sounds really OP. *shot*

 

[Quantum Tesseract]

I would like to point out that a key advantage Mega Lopunny has over Diggersby is that it has perfect coverage in just running Normal STAB+Fighting STAB -so Fakespeed+Close Combat or whatever, and it's good to go. The fourth move can be basically whatever it wants. Diggersby was able to pick and choose what checks/counters didn't beat it post-ORAS, Mega Lopunny doesn't even need to bother, and Lovely Kiss acts as a universal way of pushing past checks/counters since pretty much anything that Lovely Kiss doesn't work on either isn't a counter to Mega Lopunny anyway (Mega Sableye dies readily enough to Scrappy STAB Fighting move, especially backed by Scrappy Fake Out) or isn't remotely viable. (and so still isn't a check or counter to Mega Lopunny) Or run Swords Dance and sweep. Etc.

Any given Diggersby build could be handled by something, and in particular Gengar could at least revenge on non-Scarf builds (Fast Ghosts in general, really, but Gengar is overall more viable than Mismagius), whereas Mega Lopunny doesn't even need anti-Ghost coverage and literally anything that resists Normal is neutral at best to Fighting, so... coverage is for other 'mons. (Oh, and if stuff like Landorus-Therian is really problematic, it still has coverage moves like Ice Punch)

Anyway, the only thing I really have to say is that, yes, Shift Gear is utterly ridiculous, with anything with a decent Speed tier (80~+) able to actually skip Speed investment, turning Shift Gear access into an implicit increase in bulk on your fast sweepers. (just invest in HP) This in turn makes them harder to revenge, with little or no actual cost to their ability to beat checks based on Speed advantage. Since having Shift Gear means being a Steel type and having access to King's Shield, even priority based checks (Most notably Fakespeed) aren't very good at stopping Shift Gear sweeps, since you resist most priority/the best priority and can punish pretty much any priority that isn't Feint or Water Shuriken by King's Shielding it and continuing with the sweep. Quagsire helps check these shenanigans (Resists Steel, ignores boosting), but for instance Jirachi can flinchhax it to death with Zen Headbutt reasonably reliably, so it's not a reliable check to Shift Gear sweeps, even with some of the more egregious things already removed. (eg no more Dark Void Shift Gear Bisharp)

Because I'm a lazy person. I'm just gonna say that this isn't stabmons+ and Lopunny doesn't have CC.

Nah.
It only has the mediocre hjk, which admittedly I am calling mediocre because of the fact that kings sheild is a thing (-2 atk, -50% health) and all the steel types Megalop wants to hit get it. An example of such is klefki- It can sub, It has moonlight, it lives an HJK, it can recover with moonlight , it can twave, it can Moonblast/Play rough...
It isn't the only one, though. Skarmory wins, Lando wins even with ice punch if the bunny doesn't predict the switch, Gyarados does pretty well, etc. The lovely kiss is obnoxious to all of these, however, which is why in y opinion it should be the thing banned.

I have nothing to say on shift gear.

 

[EV]

My plan is to ban Lovely Kiss and Shift Gear when the STABmons Open is over.

 

[G-Luke]

No dont ban Lovely Kiss, Because only mega Lopunny is the only broken abuser of it.

 

[canno]

Honestly, I don't see why we should keep Lovely Kiss. We banned Dark Void and this is almost the exact same situation.

 

[EV]

lol @ bulky Kyurem-B http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/stabmons-338505325

Edit: The reason I find it amusing is because at team preview I was pretty screwed.

Scyther had 3 Kyurem checks: a Mega Slowbro, Heatran, and Ferrothorn. Luckily once I found out his Ferro lacked Gyro Ball I realized it was no longer a check, and he was keeping his Slowbro hidden as his wincon so I didn't really have to worry about it coming out midgame, which meant I just had to clear Heatran. Unfortunately my best Heatran checks (Gyarados, my own Mega Bro, and Surf Latios) were all hardwalled by Ferrothorn, which if let in would get a free Leech Seed on something and use that to give his team an easier time switching in.

My Kyurem is 252 HP / 216 SpD / 40 Spe, Careful, which let me tank his Heatran's Doom Desires quite well provided I kept Subbing and Roosting on the right turns. His Lava Plumes were also 2HKOs on my subs so that gave me more time to Roost before Doom Desire hit. I knew I wouldn't beat Tran midgame but I had to stall out his Doom Desires as that was his best attack for Kyurem. Once they were gone and I Lunar Danced with Latios to refill Kyurem's PP (and health and healed that burn) I knew I would be good to go again.

I got some lucky turns against his Mega Bro but it was only a matter of time before I crit, so on top of paralysis and flinch it wasn't all that bad. Then I just had to stall Ferro's PP as much as possible so my Mega Bro could finish stalling it. Not the cleanest strategy but it really showcases how cool bulky Kyurem is.

If his Ferro had Gryo or his Tran was more offensive I would have lost. Better partners for Kyurem are Magnezone for Ferro (or even your own Tran) and Keldeo, which can threaten both Ferro and Heatran once it's in.

 

[Maleovex]

lol @ bulky Kyurem-B http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/stabmons-338505325

Edit: The reason I find it amusing is because at team preview I was pretty screwed.

Scyther had 3 Kyurem checks: a Mega Slowbro, Heatran, and Ferrothorn. Luckily once I found out his Ferro lacked Gyro Ball I realized it was no longer a check, and he was keeping his Slowbro hidden as his wincon so I didn't really have to worry about it coming out midgame, which meant I just had to clear Heatran. Unfortunately my best Heatran checks (Gyarados, my own Mega Bro, and Surf Latios) were all hardwalled by Ferrothorn, which if let in would get a free Leech Seed on something and use that to give his team an easier time switching in.

My Kyurem is 252 HP / 216 SpD / 40 Spe, Calm, which let me tank his Heatran's Doom Desires quite well provided I kept Subbing and Roosting on the right turns. His Lava Plumes were also 2HKOs on my subs so that gave me more time to Roost before Doom Desire hit. I knew I wouldn't beat Tran midgame but I had to stall out his Doom Desires as that was his best attack for Kyurem. Once they were gone and I Lunar Danced with Latios to refill Kyurem's PP (and health and healed that burn) I knew I would be good to go again.

I got some lucky turns against his Mega Bro but it was only a matter of time before I crit, so on top of paralysis and flinch it wasn't all that bad. Then I just had to stall Ferro's PP as much as possible so my Mega Bro could finish stalling it. Not the cleanest strategy but it really showcases how cool bulky Kyurem is.

If his Ferro had Gryo or his Tran was more offensive I would have lost. Better partners for Kyurem are Magnezone for Ferro (or even your own Tran) and Keldeo, which can threaten both Ferro and Heatran once it's in.

Sry for quoting the whole thing, but on phone, just saying Megabro has shell armour, so you can't crit it

 

[canno]

Sry for quoting the whole thing, but on phone, just saying Megabro has shell armour, so you can't crit it

Teravolt lets Kyu-B break through Shell Armor

Anyways, that's a pretty cool Kyu-B set (although I'm pretty sure you mean Careful, seeing as its DD). What I like about it is that it can be used to check other things like certain Thundy-I set (non-FB and non-physical sets) and even some bulky waters like Rotom-W (although you can't really do that much outside of getting to +6). I wonder if you could make a non-DDance verison work - something like Roost / Freeze-Dry / Draco Meteor / Earth Power maybe? Dunno

 

[Akumeoy]

Why would one ever run Ferro with Horn Leech but not Gyro Ball? Gyro Ball lets Ferro check some big threats (Kyub, Mega Lop, Porygon-Z (sometimes), and Aerodactyl come to mind), while Horn Leech doesn't do much (Rock-types already don't like Gyro Ball, none of the A-ranked Ground-types are actually weak to Grass; Keldeo and Mega Blastoise blow Ferro to bits, Mega Slowbro tanks Horn Leeches with ease, Azumarill still wins if it has Superpower and can play around King's Shield, and Gyarados takes a pittance. I guess Mega Gyarados, Starmie, and Manaphy should watch out for it). Ferrothorn should probably choose from among Synthesis, Leech Seed, Spore, Gyro Ball, Stealth Rock, Spikes, and Thunder Wave (and maybe Toxic).

If you're running Gyroless Ferrothorn, you deserve to lose to Kyub. TBH. Though he still could have won with Flash Cannon, Taunt, or Roar on Heatran, all of which are usable.

 

[EV]

The Immortal
If you could add Shift Gear and Lovely Kiss to the banlist that would be great~

 

[GoldLeafRoserade]

Volcarona @ Leftovers
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 72 HP / 252 SpA / 184 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 1 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 SpD
- Quiver Dance
- Blue Flare
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Roost

So here's an interesting Pokemon I've been using to take on Fairy-types and to hopefully put a stop to Mega Metagross. Here are some relevant calculations:

252+ Atk Mega Altaria Earthquake vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 152-179 (46.2 - 54.4%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Pixilate Sylveon Boomburst vs. 72 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 139-164 (42.2 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Choice Specs does 2HKO though, but not with a +1 from Quiver Dance under Volcarona's belt! Flame Body is cool to try and stop Mega Metagross and really comes in clutch. Testing out a defensive set also...

Air balloon heatran completely walls this, forcing you to lose all of your boosts and switch out

 

[skies]

Air balloon heatran completely walls this, forcing you to lose all of your boosts and switch out

Err, this was about four months ago... o_o.

And I mean, Air Balloon Heatran isn't the end-all-be-all. Bring a Terrakion or something, and don't set up till that Balloon is popped.

 

[GoldLeafRoserade]

Err, this was about four months ago... o_o.

And I mean, Air Balloon Heatran isn't the end-all-be-all. Bring a Terrakion or something, and don't set up till that Balloon is popped.

i just tried it and lost to an aer balloon heatran, thought peope should know

 

[bp scrub]

i just tried it and lost to an aer balloon heatran, thought peope should know

how does terrakion lose to air balloon tran tho

 

[GoldLeafRoserade]

outspeed, flash cannon, ko

 

[miltankmilk]

How is balloon tran outspeeding terrakion???

 

[GoldLeafRoserade]

252+ SpA Heatran Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Terrakion: 314-372 (97.2 - 115.1%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

 

[Pikachuun]

252+ SpA Heatran Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Terrakion: 314-372 (97.2 - 115.1%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

How is balloon tran outspeeding terrakion???

Even if you're adamant and they're timid you'll be outspeeding them lol

 

[GoldLeafRoserade]

caught it on the switch in, got a high roll

 

[G-Luke]

That was just bad playing by your oppenent, as Terrak beats Heatran almost all of the time. Besides, Terrakion shouldnt switch in fearing a Searing Shot burn or Damage with Flash Cannon.