That's a good point. Thanks for posting this calc. I do still think it's a decent early game pivot given Darm's propensity to get worn down and to spam its STAB move early game. Plus, EQ is very much a suboptimal move to lock into and if you can wear down Darm to the point where a faster offensive threat can pick it off then I'd think Lapras would've fulfilled its function.
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Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Usage Stats in post #581]
- Thread starter TPP
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Substitute or taunt could be useful if your team already has grass coverage. Substitute especially works nicely with intimidate, you can scare out a physical attacker and sub-up. Really shuts down corsola trying to come in and wisp you. Taunt has the added benefit of hitting sub-disable dragapult but you obviously can't count on gyarados to handle drag no matter the set
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I agree with this. In the field of dealing with Darmanitan I would rather have the ability to double my HP. Especially because darm loses its band boosts, dynamax darm is arguably tamer then a darm in a meta where you cannot "defensively dynamax"
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People saying Darm's better, people saying Darm's worse. Ultimately I think the answer is somewhere in the middle, but slightly skewed to the "worse" side. Yeah Dynamax could be used to try to endure Darm in a pinch, but ultimately I think losing the ability to bypass choicelock is a big enough nerf for the indirect buff as a result of the mechanic leaving not quite compensating.
Darm's still amazing, and while I feel the pros of post-Dynamax meta for it don't outweigh the cons, the drop in viability isn't gonna be that absurd.
Darm's still amazing, and while I feel the pros of post-Dynamax meta for it don't outweigh the cons, the drop in viability isn't gonna be that absurd.
I feel that darm was one of the many broken aspects of dynamax meta, but it is probably the one (besides Mr fish) that utilized dynamax the least, keeping in mind that banded darm is close to two times stronger then when dynamaxed. So when you remove the dynamax aspect from the equation, the pokemon that did not need it (Like darm) rise to the top, and my money would be on a suspect in the far future.
Yea trying to figure out how much better or worse G-Darm got is a bit of an exercise in futility (especially this early on) since it's (almost certainly) still really good
even if you know Darm is Scarf (or Band or Zen, the latter of which can be really deadly now IMO), that doesn't stop it from being one of the most dangerous threats in the tier right now
I disagree, especially seeing as something that we have not even began to discuss is that a lot of common counterplay is hindered by dynamax going to begin with, so now trends will either revolve around checking Darmanitan or it will roam free in the metagame, relatively unchecked.
The fact of the matter is that regardless of this, Darmanitan just lacks the necessary checks and counters to be managed in the metagame. With Dynamax being present, there were at least ways to create more counterplay, even if there were also ways to bypass choice lock that could make it more broken at time. The fact that it was at least a conversation -- the fact that checking it became a possibility to begin with -- was enough to make it so that Darmanitan was not absolutely ridiculous in the metagame as it stood. With that now being out of the picture, the only real method of handling it is out-predicting the Darmanitan user. You cannot really suffocate it a ton, thus preventing it from coming in, without using a super aggressive team and those teams will likely still find themselves vulnerable to the scarf variant whenever it does find itself in.
While I think we should wait a little time to determine of anything is better or worse, broken or healthy, etc. due to a substantial metagame shift being provoked by the banning of Dynamax, it has been made pretty clear through general metagame play with Dynamax and even the few tournaments that lack Dynamax that Darmanitan just does not have the counters. It is the best Pokemon in the tier and it probably is due for eventual tiering action due to how potent it is offensively.
I'd also like to add that "defensively Dynamaxing" crucially allowed you to avoid getting flinched by Darmanitan. A lot of the time, I found myself Dynamaxing to avoid the 30% chance of getting flinched on a Pokemon that could potentially eat a hit without Dynamaxing. With Dynamax gone, not only can less Pokemon use it for the double HP boost to eat a hit, but now Darmanitan has a decent chance to flinch through the few things that can eat a hit from it, which makes it all the more frustrating to deal with.
Yea, people were running Scarf Hydreigon/Dragapult just to beat lead Scarf G-Darm in the 1v1, since otherwise it could either get momentum against most leads and still hit hard with a +1 U-Turn (well, functionally +1), or just do a truckload of damage with the appropriate move (Fire+Ground+Ice coverage is pretty good). Sure Sash Excadrill could live (barring a flinch or burn from Flare Blitz) and OHKO, but that's more of a staple for HO/more offensive teams.
Of course like you said we should wait a while but it's pretty unambiguous that G-Darm is nuts. And while Scarf is probably the best set, Band still has a solid place since 95 speed is not that bad and the added power is quite notable (Seismitoad can't switch in and get a Toxic off/fish for a Scald burn even with Protect shenanigans, which it can do against Scarf). Zen Mode is really dangerous too, while way more niche.
I don't think zen mode is that hard to deal with by its self, but you have to play so actively against a gorilla tactics darmanitan that you are always going to be vunerable to any variation in the set, like it being zen mode
Yep, I have seen a handful of both the dragons being used as Choice Scarf users to compress roles and do things like take out Darm/revenge kill Darm. The thing with scarf Dragapult is that it is already pretty limited in terms of damage output on the special end due to it having much more base attack, but usually Choice Specs helps remedy this. With scarf, it is quite weak imo and it is not even able to OHKO Darmanitan usually (consider miss chance) unless it runs Modest, which most do not:
252 SpA Dragapult Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Darmanitan-Galar: 320-378 (91.1 - 107.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
Another thing you mention that, imo, is pretty huge is the sheer strength of Darmanitan putting a quick, oftentimes permanent strain on counterplay/checks. U-turn can do a number to bulky waters like Rotom-Wash or even more offensive Ice resists like Cinderace and offensive Rotom-Heat. This can put them into 2HKO range after minimal other chip and make handling Darmanitan in the later stages of the game really challenging, which happens a lot against scarf variants in particular.
- I've posted this before, but Sylveon in a decent defensive core (corsola, seismitoad, etc) is amazing. It has been able to get more 6-0s for me than even broken dmax sweepers. It's just so difficult to defeat and is the only fairy that can counter Hydreigon (flash cannon does less than 30%). I've been testing modified EVs of 252 HP / 56 Def / 200 SpDef Calm, as you can beat Toxtricity too since they don't run sludge wave often.
- As far as Darm and scarf dragapult, scarf dragapult is legit in its own right. There's no reason to run timid scarf as you outspeed most swift swim users with modest anyway and it has utility outside of luring Darm for this reason, as well as checking sub hydreigon and burning BU corviknight thru sub. With that said, it's definitely not a reason to say Darm isn't broken. Though it was easy to take advantage of brainless lead darm, people are getting smarter of course and this trick doesn't work anymore on savvy players. I'm just shilling for Scarf Dragapult. Scarf dragapult can be a substitute for ditto imo.
- Darm itself is cheap and brainless but it is extremely weak to hazards and protect users. Ie SR + tspikes means you can just bring in pex (better now that dmax is banned), scout for what move they pick, even EQ, and switch out. Darm can't do much against that. Having king shield, protect, etc on a team hampers darm pretty badly. More HO / Offensive teams are just going to get crushed though.
- Hydreigon should be running: Nasty Plot / Draco Meteor / Fire Blast / Flash Cannon with leftovers. The sub set is pretty weak and underwhelming imo. With fire blast you cut through Corviknight and Ferrothorn much faster and can check SD Bisharp (huge threat). +2 draco breaks through mandibuzz, hippo, pex, etc much faster and more efficiently. You also own rain with this too. This is a really powerful and under utilized hydreigon set.
- Corsola is really good and will be a great blanket answer to Drill, Darm, Hawlucha. It can even 1v1 CB Tyranitar. If you are having trouble with Corsola, chip it and switch to Hatterene to block and steal its recovery.
- I'm working on a beast Aegislash set:
Aegislash @ Life Orb
Rash 162 Atk / 180 SpA / 168 Spe
- King's Shield
- Shadow Ball
- Iron Head
- Shadow Sneak
Sub is good, but it's often forced out after dealing damage. It's often better to just deal a ton of damage and then pick off the weakened opponent without having to switch if they are faster, or 2HKO slower bulky walls. With rocks up, Phys def hippo, ferro and pex are 2HKOd by shadow ball. Careful Mandibuzz (without HDB) is 2HKOd by iron head and you outspeed it. Careful 252 / 136 Corviknight 2HKOd. Seismitoad is 2HKOd by SB. Max HP rotom is usually going down to shadow ball into sneak. Dracovish goes down to SB into sneak. Sassy ferro is the only switch in really. Just deny its leech seed with clef and 2HKO it the next time it switches in. Banworthy?
- As far as Darm and scarf dragapult, scarf dragapult is legit in its own right. There's no reason to run timid scarf as you outspeed most swift swim users with modest anyway and it has utility outside of luring Darm for this reason, as well as checking sub hydreigon and burning BU corviknight thru sub. With that said, it's definitely not a reason to say Darm isn't broken. Though it was easy to take advantage of brainless lead darm, people are getting smarter of course and this trick doesn't work anymore on savvy players. I'm just shilling for Scarf Dragapult. Scarf dragapult can be a substitute for ditto imo.
- Darm itself is cheap and brainless but it is extremely weak to hazards and protect users. Ie SR + tspikes means you can just bring in pex (better now that dmax is banned), scout for what move they pick, even EQ, and switch out. Darm can't do much against that. Having king shield, protect, etc on a team hampers darm pretty badly. More HO / Offensive teams are just going to get crushed though.
- Hydreigon should be running: Nasty Plot / Draco Meteor / Fire Blast / Flash Cannon with leftovers. The sub set is pretty weak and underwhelming imo. With fire blast you cut through Corviknight and Ferrothorn much faster and can check SD Bisharp (huge threat). +2 draco breaks through mandibuzz, hippo, pex, etc much faster and more efficiently. You also own rain with this too. This is a really powerful and under utilized hydreigon set.
- Corsola is really good and will be a great blanket answer to Drill, Darm, Hawlucha. It can even 1v1 CB Tyranitar. If you are having trouble with Corsola, chip it and switch to Hatterene to block and steal its recovery.
- I'm working on a beast Aegislash set:
Aegislash @ Life Orb
Rash 162 Atk / 180 SpA / 168 Spe
- King's Shield
- Shadow Ball
- Iron Head
- Shadow Sneak
Sub is good, but it's often forced out after dealing damage. It's often better to just deal a ton of damage and then pick off the weakened opponent without having to switch if they are faster, or 2HKO slower bulky walls. With rocks up, Phys def hippo, ferro and pex are 2HKOd by shadow ball. Careful Mandibuzz (without HDB) is 2HKOd by iron head and you outspeed it. Careful 252 / 136 Corviknight 2HKOd. Seismitoad is 2HKOd by SB. Max HP rotom is usually going down to shadow ball into sneak. Dracovish goes down to SB into sneak. Sassy ferro is the only switch in really. Just deny its leech seed with clef and 2HKO it the next time it switches in. Banworthy?
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I don’t think aegislash is remotely close to ban worthy in the current environment, I think it’s in a pretty balanced sweet spot right now. The base points it lost seem to matter a lot more then I thought, as well as the king’s Shield nerf. It definitely has a role, but it’s relatively easy to both kill, and to block defensively
I definitely would not categorize Aegislash as banworthy atm. It suffered a noteworthy drop in stats and lost Toxic, which was a huge tool in working around counterplay in previous generations (this time around it would surely help with Mandibuzz and Hippowdon, for example). I feel that variants such as Choice Specs are quite good, especially thanks to the lack of Pursuit, and perhaps a set like the one you outlined can go a long way. In addition, I have seen set-up variants do a number to more offensive teams, which is a cool take on Aegislash. But I do not find it broken. There are numerous checks and counters to it and none of them are going away anytime soon.
I'm not advocating for or against a ban, but it's definitely going to be a top threat. I think Aegislash becomes far more deadly as an all out attacker with life orb and some speed investment since it has the tools to beat any wall. I don't see many defensive walls currently used being able to do much. Dropping king's shield for autotomize, CC, metal sound or even steel beam could also be deadly. Dug can't even trap you. Maybe calm pex could be a blanket check.
Toxapex, SDef Hippowdon, Mandibuzz, Gastrodon, Umbreon, SDef Corviknight (barring drops as it is faster, has Roost, can stall LO, has pressure, and takes under half usually), and Milotic all check or counter the set you posted. I feel like you underestimate the defensive answers to Aegislash throughout your posts. It simply is not a devastating mixed attacker right now. It can be strong and it certainly has a niche; it is very viable overall. With this said, it is nowhere near broken atm imo
Bold pex is 2HKOd after rocks as it takes 46% min. Hippo is 2HKOd unless max careful, which is rare and bad because of excadrill. Mandibuzz is taking 75% from two iron heads and is outsped, so it needs HBD to avoid the 2HKO and without lefties it gets chipped pretty quickly anyway. Gastrodon and Umbreon are 2HKOd by CC. 252 / 180 Impish corviknight takes 44% min from shadow ball and it's not faster than Aegislash. If it's max careful for some reason CC 2HKOs it.
So you've got calm pex. And maybe milotic, which is rare and can also be 2HKOd by CC anyway depending on EVs. A few layers of hazards and I'll put my wager on Aegislash for sure.
SDef Hippo is the best set right now. It lets you check LO Clefable, which very few things can do right now. It also can help withstand RotomH temporarily. Almost all Hippowdon should be able to check Aegislash because of this; calling this bad is a very inaccurate statement. Mandibuzz oftentimes run creep and you are at best banking on a flinch chance. CC was not in the set you posted, but yea if you give any Pokemon 5 moves and max EVs in three stats then it can be a breaker, I'll give you that. Try being more realistic within the confines of the metagame instead of painting a perfectly idealistic picture, as that simply is not fair to the other side or representative of the actual game itself.
Rest in peace, my majestic WheelMax Morpeko and SlushMax Beartic. Your ability to seem underwhelming and lackluster at first only to then wipe out 4 or more mons on the other team will likely remain in the memories of those who experienced them, whether they want to or not. Maybe they can find new companionship with Zacian-C and Eternatus in Ubers (but realistically probably won't). Yet at the same time, I will never stop dancing on the grave of SwiftMax Barraskewda and DanceMax Gyarados. You monstrosities can't hurt anyone anymore, Hallelujah!
As for the current meta (whenever PS actually works for me):
As for the current meta (whenever PS actually works for me):
- Screw Dracovish. I hate its design, I hate how stupidly strong it is, and I hate how one of the most hideous-looking mons in the game gets to be the recipient of some ludicrous battle properties. I'm not sure if I'd consider it broken, but I do currently feel like I have to either use Ditto, a Dracovish of my own, or go out of my way to find another answer to it that I wouldn't need to use for much else besides it (e.g. Appletun), which is never a good sign.
- Umbreon is actually a really solid Dragapult check thanks to its high special bulk, Ghost resistance, and Foul Play. It can also heal itself or its teammates with Wish and isn't weak to SR, two advantages it has over Mandibuzz. It's also pretty good at dealing with most Aegislash sets for those same reasons. But I think I'm one of many who agrees that it needs Heal Bell back yesterday.
- Don't sleep on Xatu. This thing is a real dick for Stall teams to deal with thanks to Magic Bounce. It has two noteworthy advantages over Hatterene: Heat Wave and Roost. With these (as well as Psychic), Xatu can beat Galarian Corsola, Toxapex, Ferrothorn, defensive Seismitoad and Excadrill, and even some Corviknight sets, most of which are much harder for Hatterene to break.
Let's not twist what I said. I mentioned before that aegislash can fit options like CC and others on that set easily over king's shield. That's 4 moves not 5. I said it has the tools to beat most walls, which it does. I didn't max all of the EVs, and my calcs are using the spread I listed. I don't know where you got that from. If you want to take each wall and add a EVs to test against Aegislash that's a good process to test the set, but I can slash CC on there as valid option as well since king's shield isn't even a coverage option.
Max careful hippodown can check aegislash, yes. It's still taking 40% min from shadow ball. And That may or may not be almost all hippowdon.
You posted a set without CC, but ok sure. Without King's Shield, you are going to find yourself a lot more prediction reliant and limited, which you have not mentioned much as a trade-off. My point is that you are considering the positives without the consequences, which can make any strong mixed attack look like a worldbeater. This has been applied to things like Garchomp or Dragonite in generation 5 or Tornadus-Therian over the last few generations -- sure, they have the tools to significantly damage almost every Pokemon, if not every Pokemon, but they are also limited in what they can do and oftentimes have to make trade-offs.
Seeing as Aegislash has lower speed, is oftentimes fishing for 2HKOs instead of flirting with OHKOing things, and comrpomises its bulk almost entirely if it drops King's Shield, you are going to have to acknowledge that it is not a top tier offensive Pokemon right now. Back when it was banned over the last couple of generations, it was a potent offensive presence, but that was never why it was broken and gaining access to Close Combat does not change that either. The reason why it was broken was that it had outs against most common counterplay through King's Shield making it fucking ridiculous on both ends and Toxic hitting most things that actually handled it (in this case, Mandibuzz, Hippowdon, Gastrodon, etc.). The things that made Aegislash banworthy are either less significant, flat-out worse, or no longer in place. It can and will recreate itself as a very strong Pokemon in the metagame, but arguing that it is broken or even top tier already is simply not representative of what it is in the tier as it stands.
Continuous back-and-forth posting between two people tends to derail/clog threads, so I'm done discussing this as I have said my piece. Feel free to respond if you wish, but I am leaving it at this -- consider the opportunity cost and the tradeoffs/negatives that come alongside any positives.
I am not calling Aegislash broken, or saying it should be banned, and I'm not saying it can do everything at once. You are misconstruing what I'm saying. I'm saying it has excellent potential as a wallbreaker and that it has options to break through most walls used in OU. And it will likely become a premier wallbreaker. Can it beat everything we've listed at once? No. Can it be a tank like 252 lefties sub king's shield aegislash and a wallbreaker at once? No. Will it have tradeoffs if you need to drop king's shield or another move for CC / other coverage? yes.
But it can definitely be customized to break through whatever defensive cores that are trending in the metagame. I posted an example of what can be used to beat commonly used walls right now and I mentioned that it has other options. It's not locked into running exactly what I posted, just as defensive walls aren't locked into whatever smogon analysis is up. That's all.
But it can definitely be customized to break through whatever defensive cores that are trending in the metagame. I posted an example of what can be used to beat commonly used walls right now and I mentioned that it has other options. It's not locked into running exactly what I posted, just as defensive walls aren't locked into whatever smogon analysis is up. That's all.
I wanna know what people think of this conk set
Conkeldurr @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
EVs: 72 HP / 252 Atk / 184 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Facade
- Drain Punch
- Mach Punch
It 2HKOs common defensive mons such as ferrothorn, toxapex, seismitoad, spdef corviknight, vaporeon, clefable etc
It really takes advantage of the fact that every team has a bulky water mon for draco/darm because it can feely switch into a scald or gyro ball and knock something out in return. Could use bulk up over eq or close combat although those options are more niche imo. The speed evs lets you outspeed 0 speed ev corviknight although u could argue that u want to be slower to take advantage of roost.
Conkeldurr @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
EVs: 72 HP / 252 Atk / 184 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Facade
- Drain Punch
- Mach Punch
It 2HKOs common defensive mons such as ferrothorn, toxapex, seismitoad, spdef corviknight, vaporeon, clefable etc
It really takes advantage of the fact that every team has a bulky water mon for draco/darm because it can feely switch into a scald or gyro ball and knock something out in return. Could use bulk up over eq or close combat although those options are more niche imo. The speed evs lets you outspeed 0 speed ev corviknight although u could argue that u want to be slower to take advantage of roost.
I've used a similar set, but with ice punch instead of drain punch. I never found myself really needing the extra HP, but having the option to predict and take out dragapult as it came in helped me several times.
Both sets are super useful, though.
Aegislash honestly can't afford to lose King's Shield. Base 60 Speed combined with 60/50/50 bulk and weaknesses to 4 common types speaks for itself.
CC isn't even a lock to beat Umbreon, since even without any Defense EVs it's not a guaranteed 2HKO, and Aegislash takes a truckload of damage from Foul Play after a Defense drop in response.
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