I completely disagree with the banning of Dugtrio (hell I disagree with the test but nothing can be done about that).
Stall is a strong team, no doubt about that, but the mentions being thrown around here about how unbeatable it is are really laughable. Most of the people posting in this thread have played against stall, and they have noticed it is frustrating to play against. They have not, however, actually played stall at a high level enough to realize how it can be quite complex to use as well. Stall is inherently strong in ladder, especially more in an era full of replays. It is very easy to just go on the replays site and scout your opponent, learn all of its sets and consequently not get caught with your pants on the ground because of it. In a real high level setting, you dont have that advantage. That Garchomp your opponent has? It might have SR so you have to bring Sableye in on it. Or it might be SD LO with a fire move so you should have gone Clefable in the first place instead of letting your Skarm drop. All of these moves have very real consequences and they are minimized on ladder, hence Stall being much better. Most of the surprise hits you could get on a Stall team are gone.
Adding onto the last paragraph, you also dont know the sheer amount of Pokemon that can trouble stall heavily. You really dont get it until you use Stall enough, and then you realize "well shit theres nothing I could have done in this game". Just like how some people feel when they face stall:
We have the classic Alola Marowak (which by itself doesnt beat stall, but it makes it very easy to win, especially if its SD. Hell if its SR it does too, since Sableye and Skarmory cant switch in on it and now SR is up for the rest of your team to take advantage). You can stop this by playing VERY well with Toxapex and throwing tspikes up early, but that leaves Sableye without Mega Evolving and now layers become a real problem. Pursuit Dugtrio also works, but running Pursuit Dugtrio means youre not running Sucker Punch, and that means you will lose against opposing Stall teams straight up, so its a trade off.
We've got Tapu Lele of course, the quintessential stall breaker. People have started using Shed Shell on it for some reason, which is just straight up lazy building. Shed Shell Lele is legit what you throw into a stall weak team to fix the issue instead of building a team that isnt weak to stall in the first place (more on this later). Shed Shell or not, Lele gives Stall a shitton of troubles.
We have Landorus and Garchomp, which serve similar purposes. Both are aggressive SR setters that can threaten Stall heavily with a KO if the stall player makes a mistake. In a tourney setting in which you dont know your opponents set, this can mean a straight up loss. In the case you play correctly, Landorus still threatens to leave Skarmory at 1% at worst (if it counters a Stone Edge and survives with Sturdy) at the VERY least, as well as keeping rocks up. That being said, Landorus can also keep rocks up by forcing Skarm to run out of Defog. The Stall player can avoid this by bringing Sableye on a predicted SR, but if he mispredicts and brings Sableye on a Stone Edge then game is over. If he mispredicts and uses Counter instead of Defog as you Stealth Rock, you threaten you 2HKO the Sturdy Skarmory if it Defogs or Skarm is gonna be at 1% with SR up on the field and basically dead. Skarm gone means a good amount of mons can take advantage of a stall team, such as Mega Pinsir and Mega Metagross. Garchomp plays similarly in that it can threaten Skarm directly and it doesnt fear Counter. It also 2HKOs (OHKOs if SD) the Sableye.
Weve got Tapu Bulu. SD Z Fight is a bitch to face for stall but a good player can deal with it by doing some smart switching with Skarmory and Clefable to make it run out of Grassy Terrain. Add Leech Seed to that (not even a bad move) and Stall is now 6-0d.
Magma Heatran gets revenged by Dugtrio but it takes at least one mon down with it as long as you dont lead with it vs Sableye (Sab can outstall Magma Storm and switch out freely as it cant be trapped). Usually the mon dying is either Toxapex or Chansey, opening a hole to be taken advantage of. Its also great vs bulky offense teams so not a Shed Shell Lele level bandaid, which makes it great in my book.
Mega Gyarados 6-0s Stall without a single issue. I shouldnt have to explain how.
If you are smart and dont let Tapu Fini get knocked off by the Sableye, then it is a BITCH to face with stall. It wont win the game by itself but it will require some heavy outplaying by the opponent as Toxapex alone cant deal with it if it has lefties up (to nullify burn damage in case of a Scald burn, this is why you dont let it get knocked off).
Latios is a bitch to face in a tourney setting because you cant know its set. If you go to Sableye predicting a Scarf Trick and it ends up being Soul Dew or Specs, you just lost your Sableye and possibly the game. It offers trick too so thats nice.
LO Tornadus Therian keeps the stall player dancing around as it cant afford to let its Chansey eat a Knock Off, but everything else is 2HKOd by LO Hurricane or a Heat Wave in the case of Skarmory. Not trapped by Dugtrio and can spam U-Turn to regain momentum. Stall has to try to Toxic it with Chansey but again, a Knock Off could be huge trouble.
Not as common, but SD Breloom with Spore can put a lot of pressure on Stall. Something is going to go to sleep 100%, cant be revenge killed by Dugtrio (Stall cant afford to run Aerial Ace), and even Clefable gets 2hkod by Bullet Seed (if LO it 2HKOs with 3 hits, if no LO then it needs 4 hits).
Theres more than just single mons. There are also team structures that can dismantle Stall and are very hip right now.
1) Knock Off Landorus + Magnezone teams completely dumpster Stall, as the first mon youll bring into Landorus is always going to be Skarmory.
2) Nifty Tapu Koko + Mega Metagross can beatStall, as Thunderpunch is 2HKOing Skarm, one mispredict on the Metagross switch and your Skarm is dead and you lose the game.
3)Dugtrio itself, the Pokemon that supposedly makes Stall broken, completely destroys Stall as it takes down one mon you want gone (be it Chansey or Toxapex) for something else to take over.
4) Greninja + most stuff put a lot of Pressure on stall due to its ability to set up Spikes as it threatens a 2HKO on Sableye and Skarmory should they switch in (this also means Dugtrio cant switch in directly on a Hoopa or Tyranitar, for example).
5) Leech Seed Serperior + overwhelming Clefable is a win for you. This is even easier on tournaments where you can use surefire lures such as Acid Downpour Weavile (saw this shit work on ladder once). Or even better just run Zard X as the only answer stall has for that mon is to bring Clefable in and force it to Mega Evolve so Dugtrio can trap it.
6) Trick Room teams in general can dong stall team as it usually has Marowak + Bulu. Sometimes even Healing Wish support for Wak so RIP stall.
7) Hyper Offensive cores, such as the ones found on Sticky Web teams (of shit like Lele + Kartana) run through Stall. Dugtrio has to die to stop one of them, and then the other runs through the enemy team. Say it sacs itself so Lele doesnt straight up win, Kartana uses SD and sweeps the rest of the team clean as Dugtrio cant Reversal revenge it.
8) Dugtrio stall straight up loses to opposing Pressure Stall (ie with Zapdos or Suicune or whatever people like to use), they just get PP stalled faster and lose.
9) TheThorn brought a nice offensive core of Weavile + Magnezone in SPL, same principle as Landorus with Knock Off + Magnezone, just less common.
10) Mold Breaker Excadrill is a bitch because it gets SR up always. If its defensive its gonna break Dugtrio's sash by virtue of surviving EQ if it tries to trap it to stop the SR spam and Defog later. So basically Excadrill + Sweeper = Stall is annoyed badly.
11) A personal favorite was someone using Future Sight Slowking on ladder. Caught me completely by surprise and due to the extra added damage every 2 turns it broke my stall team pretty easily.
12) Magearna is really annoying for Stall because it can spam Volt Switch and give a ton of Momentum to the user, and if you guess wrong once and it decides to attack hard then, you lose a mon. Best bet is to catch it on a Volt Switch with Dugtrio and thats risky as all hell. Magearna + Dugtrio makes for a very fun offensive core.
13) Baton Pass is dumb as all hell and needs to go but yeah, Baton Pass 6-0s Stall straight up, no chance for the Stall user (Clef can ignore boosts but it wont ignore a 1000000 base power Stored Power).
14) Anti busted out his Mismagius team in SPL and the Mismagius set, coupled with its overall team structure, means Stall has a very rough time. A good example of solid and creative teambuilding that doesnt need a bandaid like Shed Shell Lele to beat Stall.
I think that should be good enough to prove how theres plenty of stuff that can trouble Stall hard, ESPECIALLY if the Stall user has no idea of exact sets. This is just with 1.5 months of SPL, the meta hasnt even developed that much and we are already seeing a ton of strategies that can dismantle stall. Give it another month and we will see more ways that dont rely on mediocre items like Shed Shell.
With that out of the way, something that really frustrates me about this test is how the OP of this thread is worded. Im not saying this is a conspiracy to ban Dug or whatever (even though we know the stance of some Council members already) but its very annoying that its a clear appeal to emotion to the general playerbase. All the OP does is equate Dugtrio to Stall. And since most players fucking dislike Stall because its "boring to play against and noob strategy kill it", then the obvious move is to ban Dugtrio. Dugtrio is so much more than Stall. Dugtrio adds new dimensions to the game that can be very damn entertaining. Its fine if you dont enjoy the facets it brings, everyone has their own opinions. Just dont act like its stupid broken on these teams because we know its not. Duggy can support some teams very well, making for interesting combinations. It adds diversity, it helps keep some things in check. Everyone agrees it is not broken in teams that arent Stall, and why is that?...
Because these teams dont have ridiculous hazard control. The problem people face regarding Dugtrio on Stall is that Focus Sash allows it to come in on most threats and get rid of them without Stall losing anything in return. Opponent have a Hoopa or Tyranitar? Just bring in Dugtrio and Focus Sash will keep it alive to revenge kill. Mega Sableye + Defog allows this. On a normal offensive team without Sableye, keeping layers off to have duggy at full so its Sash stays up requires a lot of skill. Ill use my SPL game for example, I sacked my fully healthy Latios to a Hydreigon I could have killed just so I could Defog the Stealth Rock that would have made my Dugtrio unable to kill the Mimikyu on the opposing team. Thats strategic thinking, not broken Pokemons acting up.
So yeah, Dugtrio without the ridiculous hazard control isnt broken. This leads me to agree with p2 and some others in that the problem is something else, not Dugtrio itself. Why Mega Sab? Because the opportunity cost is too much. Just by virtue of being there it makes the opponent think twice to get rocks up. This is nothing like Double Defog Stall (Zapdos + Skarm) in which they have to switch in, cant take bullshit advantage of putting my rocks up against me with a single switch, and THEN waste a full turn in using Defog to get them off. This is without taking into account many offensive Stealth Rockers are fantastic against these two. Landorus, Garchomp, Tyranitar, and a few others come to mind. If they dont switch in directly on them, then Skarm takes 12 and loses its Sturdy making it prone to get killed, and Zapdos eats 25% damage on the switch to Defog later. And this is without adding that Dugtrio isnt able to switch in freely as long as those rocks stay up. Without even taking into account that Sableye is the one mon that makes certain defensive mons complete fucking deadweight against stall. Ferrothorn, Celesteela, and Tangrowth come to mind. Especially Ferro who now cant do shit at all. And Tangrowth because Mega Sab has another advantage in that it cant get Knocked Off, so it switches in with impunity on Tang, rather than a Stall mon losing its very precious item that turns 2HKOs into 3HKOs. But whatever, for like p2 said in the PR thread, for some reason people say "WE ARENT TESTING THIS BCUZ ITS SHIT" without giving reasons so I guess thats that, sorry for the rambling paragraph.
Lets go back to Dugtrio. Heist put it best in a talk I had with him. You people want to get rid of the ONE thing that makes stall proactive. Dugtrio makes stall have an offensive out. Its Stall's way to actually do damage. Without it Stall is left as a passive bland dragfest that literally relies on passive chip to kill shit. Dugtrio is a good addition to stall. It adds diversity, a new out and more ways to play Stall that arent what I previously mentioned. This is good for the game, not bad.
And something I really fucking dislike and I want to someone to explain to me already: Why is the onus on the stall team rather than the stall weak team? Lets put it this way, you wouldnt bring a team that gets 6-0d by Mega Metagross or Greninja or Pheromosa or Double Dance Lando to a tourney game. If you do, and you end up getting swept by them, whats the reaction? This: "Shouldnt have brought a shit team that gets destroyed by one of the main forces of the metagame". This happens every day so you cant deny it. If you get destroyed by something thats a huge part of the metagame your team is bad, simple as that. You need to fix that shit. Why is it that when people bring ridiculously stall weak teams the reaction is the opposite? It goes: "Lol fuck Stall garbage ass style should be banned", when it should be "welp next time bring a good team that has literally 0 play against a very common team archetype". This pisses me off, dont wanna get 6-0d by stall then dont make a stall weak team. If you do bring a Stall weak team to a tourney game and face stall, dont say "lol stall is broken". You made the risk/reward. You opted for bringing a stall weak team because you thought it would give you a much better chance against whatever you expected your opponent to bring. This is the exact same as bringing a team that gets 6-0d by Rain and facing a Rain team. The onus should always be on the player that brought the team with a fatal weakness, not his opponent.
Hell if you want to bring shitty teams with bandaid fixes to stall thats fine, your problem. Just dont complain about having to dedicate one of your 6 slots so that you can add Shed Shell Tapu Lele so you dont get 6-0d by Stall. People complain about having to do this. You literally have to run one of Max Defense Tangrowth or Mega Scizor or Celesteela on your team or you get shit on by Mega Metagross. 3 answers of which one relies on sleep powder and another on no Thunderpunch. Complain about that shit not about having to run one of 20 options so that youre not weak to Stall. You wouldnt try to fix a bad team by adding 1 mon to deal with x archetype, but people do it with stall and then they complain when it bites them back. The problem here is that the top threats are too overwhelming. Get rid of them and now you have more space to deal with other shit that isnt 2 Mega Metagross answers + a Greninja one + a Lando/Chomp one and things will be much more lax teambuilding-wise.
And a recurring argument in this thread is that Dugtrio restricts teambuilding. You got it wrong. Dugtrio doesnt restrict teambuilding. You dont go "oh shit! this team blows because Dugtrio traps my Heatran!". The real things that restrict teambuilding and make stall shine are the things I just mentioned in the paragraph above. The only thing Dugtrio does is pose an in-battle threat to certain Pokemon that your opponent is gonna have to maneuver around. The exact same as most of the hip strategies throughout the history of Pokemon. Dugtrio: You can either use volt switch with Magearna or hit it with a Flash Cannon, time to get your prediction glasses on. Guess what this exact same shit happens vs a lot of other mons not just Dugtrio. And yes, like Dugtrio, getting it wrong means a dead Pokemon. If you get a prediction wrong against a Hoopa youre losing a mon. If you get a prediction wrong against a Greninja and youre using offense youre losing a mon. If you get a prediction wrong against a Magnezone youre losing your steel. It happens all the time, Dugtrio is nothing new here. Deciding when to finish off a mon and when not to so that youre not trapped on the revenge kill adds another way of playing the game that to me is very valuable and so is to other players. And like I said you can disagree with that but that does not mean its broken.
Ciele said something important to me. In his words, Stall only functions so well because its not the best playstyle. This is completely true. Stall often gets put on the side when building because people are more focused on taking on the top threats (cough cough the actual broken stuff). Noone builds a team thinking "Ok this team will not be weak to Stall". They make their team and then they realize its Stall weak. And then they try to fix it by adding one of said band-aid fixes. And it leads to a vicious cycle of bad building. If stall was the absolute best playstyle right now, this would be the opposite. Stall would be rampant in every tourney (6 uses in 60 battles in SPL come onnnn) and so people would build with the idea of beating stall in mind. This doesnt happen right now and thats why we have so many people complaining at the end of the day.
Now lets go ahead and review some (im skipping some that arent worth reviewing) of the SPL games being thrown around here to prove certain points:
Game 1 - I will start with the first Stall game in SPL, a game in which I brought Stall vs Mazar:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7pokebankou-234716
- In this game Mazar had a very real chance of beating my Stall team. His team has no ridiculous weaknesses, one could say its a pretty decently built team from a glance. This is without using Shed Shell Lele or other gimmick stuff. He made a team with a purpose and his team was fine tuned to not lose vs stall. Now why did he lose? Thats not down to the team, thats down to Mazar misplaying his cards. His first mistake was to let his stallbreaker Tapu Fini eat a Knock Off. If he switches out that Tapu Fini would have ended the game later down the stretch. After, Mazar makes what looks like a pretty awesome play and catches my Toxapex on the switch with his own Dugtrio. He made the mistake of not calculating his Tectonic Rage however, and lost his Dugtrio in the process. His big mistake here was not realizing that he should have trapped Chansey, not Toxapex, as without Chansey his Zapdos would have given me a hell of a rough ride, without even mentioning that if his Dugtrio was Screech, he could have killed Chansey, kept his Tectonic Rage, and trapped Toxapex after. Even without a crit Scald, my own Dugtrio would have trapped his afterwards, and Chansey + Clefable walled the rest of his team handily.
In conclusion, this game was a great matchup for Mazar's anti stall team, that came down to him misplaying his win conditions, not Stall being broken.
Game 2 - Sweepage vs Hector Hard Mode:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7pokebankou-234706
This isnt Stall but it demonstrates how Dugtrio can be an interesting offensive player. It might seem super broken how Sweepage could kill the Volcarona without Hector being able to do anything, but the thing here is Sweepage played that perfectly. He knew Hector would think thats a Sash Duggy, he knew rocks up wouldnt stop Dugtrio from dealing with Volcarona. He makes an extremely risky play, though, as if Hector had decided to attack that turn, Sweepage effectively lost the game. He gambled and he got it right, thats not Dugtrio being broken thats a good player making a good play.
Games 3 & 4 - blunder vs Destiny Device and reyscarface vs Chill Shadow:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7pokebankou-235878 &
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7pokebankou-238377.
These games demonstrate that people dont prepare properly for Stall. Stall vs ridiculously stall weak team = Stall win, who would have thought. Things would have been different if Destiny Device had a Screech Dugtrio, though. It could have potentially opened up a path to victory for him, but as it stood, both these teams were stall weak and deservedly lost.
Game 5 - Poek vs Yusuke:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7pokebankou-238152
This game perfectly demonstrates that a player with lack of experience using stall can and will lose against a competent player. In this game Yusuke brought a bad variation of a Stall team. This, coupled with some shaky plays, meant that a stall weak team like Poeks could snag a win. Dugtrio kills the Hoopa, but proceeds to give a free turn to Landorus who then ravages the rest of Yusuke's team and without his Pinsir counters, it was an easy win for Poek.
Game 6 - TDK vs FlamingVictini:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7pokebankou-238383
Another game of Stall vs stall weak team. TDK plays the matchup perfectly and proceeds to win. A Knock Off Landorus would have put a tooon of work there, though.
Game 7 - Ciele vs IAmGingy:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-245369
In this game we have the opposite of last one. We have a Stall team vs a team that destroys Stall. Tectonic Rage Garchomp shows up (with the aid of a Toxic miss) and weakens enough of Ciele's team for Tapu Lele to seal the deal if needed.
Game 8 - TheThorn vs Destiny Device:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-250787
This is the game thats been talked about the most recently, causing outrage at how a Stall team could defeat an SD AlolaWak. We already saw what happens when someone inexperienced with stall plays stall in Yusuke vs Poek, and now this battle is an example of someone inexperienced in playing against Stall. Every experienced player will tell you this, this game should have been won by Destiny Device every single time. TheThorn had a good countermeasure for the sweeping Marowak in Pursuit Dugtrio (which leaves him destroyed by opposing Stall due to the lack of Sucker Punch btw, so its a tradeoff) but it shouldnt have even come to that. In this game we got to see what happens when someone brings a set that the stall player has 0 knowledge of. TheThorn lost his Clefable because he thought Landorus was Continental Crush, and if he had known that (which is v common in ladder), he would have just gone to Skarm without losing Clef, probably. TheThorn then makes a great play and predicts the Greninja using Spikes to bring Sableye in, thats just a solid prediction not Stall being broken, and if DD had predicted that and Pumped, game was over right there. Now, the problem here is it took Destiny Device a century to realize Skarmory could not touch Landorus. Lando was gonna get +6, stall the Skarmory out of Defogs, and potentially threaten the Sableye with an EQ if it dared to switch in. It took him too long to realize that (his lando was already at 11%, trap percentage for Dug) and he lost due to that.
All this game proves is that if a skilled player utilizes Stall and is able to outplay his opponent (and his opponent chokes a good amount), then the Stall user can win despite bad matchup. Guess what, this happens in Bulky Offense vs Bulky Offense too!
Ill finish this post with my thoughts of the ladder. Honestly the metagame I played in ladder was aids and I am not thrilled to play it again in the future. Rampant obvious threats running around and one less thing to stop them. What I feel should have done was: Suspect test Mega Metagross and friends, analyze how the metagame develops (which would probably be in favor of not using Stall weak teams, stall was stronger when Genesect was around for the same reason, which I outlined in the Genesect thread, which was that Genesect put much strain on Offense and Balance builds, which in turn helped Stall as they werent worried about Genesect) and then consider a test if Stall is too strong. This test was rushed and showed a lack of patience. Stall has been used a grand 6 times in SPL, losing 2 games and winning 4 of which 2 were down to team matchup due to bad teams being used. Voters, please consider this and realize that once we ban a mon the odds of it coming back are null. This wasnt the time to test Dugtrio. It maaaaybe deserved a test in the future, but not now, when theres other shit to worry about. The order in which we test things matters, and it matters a lot.