Announcement SM OU Suspect Process, Round 2 - Dirt

[Leo]

if you really want to hit maro-a suckerpunch is immensely better,

You know Dugtrio outspeeds and OHKOs wak with Earthquake right? Sucker isn't supposed to hit Wak lmao Wak has no business staying in on Dug unless you want to lose your Stallbreaker before it breaks Stall. This is the scenario: Let's assume Wak got a free switch on whatever e.g. Skarm Roost. Now the Stall player has to either choose a sack or go down to their Sash on their dug (?) so let's say he sacks Clef and now goes Dug. This is where Pursuit actually hits Wak because instead of trying to sucker it for some reason (?) you force a 50-50 and pursuit it on the switch most likely taking 50 off its health and now it 100% will die to 2 pursuits the next time you revenge it unless it runs Bonemerang in which case rocks should do the job. This is the counterplay I was talking about, yes Wak got 2 kills but now Stall has a Dug down to Sash which can still revenge kill and other 3 mons left so unless he sacked something he will need he's in a favourable position. And no I'm not theorymoning I just don't save my replays but I've been in awkward situations because of that (only twice but those were the only games I used Wak)

 

[odeio stall]

The problem is not dugtrio because this is healthy for metagame, the problem itself is Mega-sableye. Dugtrio is only broken in stall, but good in other playlists. If they want to reduce stall viability the correct one is to ban Mega-Sableye. In many cases, or being more specific before oras and at the moment pos ban Sableye, it has become easier to stall be broken, as a good volturn + hazards is already enough for this, but as you know it is complicated by hazards with Mega-sableye no Team.


Dugtrio on stall heavily relies on Focus Sash and Mega Sableye is the one who makes it harder to break its sash, also Sableye forces out passive pokemon in general and due to those forced switches it becomes easier for Dug to trap something
So it's thanks to this i think that Dugtrio is totally fine and will vote No Ban, if anything Ban Sablenite instead.

 

[ericaroselia]

The problem is not dugtrio because this is healthy for metagame, the problem itself is Mega-sableye. Dugtrio is only broken in stall, but good in other playlists. If they want to reduce stall viability the correct one is to ban Mega-Sableye. In many cases, or being more specific before oras and at the moment pos ban Sableye, it has become easier to stall be broken, as a good volturn + hazards is already enough for this, but as you know it is complicated by hazards with Mega-sableye no Team.


Dugtrio on stall heavily relies on Focus Sash and Mega Sableye is the one who makes it harder to break its sash, also Sableye forces out passive pokemon in general and due to those forced switches it becomes easier for Dug to trap something
So it's thanks to this i think that Dugtrio is totally fine and will vote No Ban, if anything Ban Sablenite instead.

Agree with this, Dugtrio is being suspected solely based on its capabilities on stall, i don't think i've ever seen people complaining about Dugtrio offense or balance since some mons that Dugtrio traps are usually stallbreakers, on stall you bring Mega Sableye + 4 mons that wall everything + Dugtrio which traps what beats Mega Sableye and those pokemon that wall supposedly everything.

On offense it's not the same story, it's easier to lay hazards there because the playstyle is more fast paced and if the opponent keeps Stealth Rock on your field your Dug can't switch in on anything due to sash breaking and if you play Dugtrio with no Focus Sash, you will suffer from that problem for the entire match not to mention that Dugtrio in those playstyles is sometimes utter deadweight and stall doesn't care about it since they have Mega Sab to prevent hazards and a ton of bulky mons to wall everything the opponent has to give without being pressured much by hazards, depending on the opposing setters.

Mega Sableye as odeio stall said is reponsible for "Dugtrio being broken in stall", i think that you are blaming the wrong pokemon since Mega Sableye is what makes stall so hard to play against, it shuts down passive stuff, especially those hazard setters and keeps Dugtrio's sash intact, this and more questions in regard to this were already explained by odeio stall, i think that stall with Dugtrio and no Sableye is easier to break than stall with Sableye and no Dugtrio. Also shoutouts to user p2 for touching on this subject, i saw him talking about this on Discord and i agree with everything he said.

I'd like to remember that Dugtrio can help breaking stall, the playstyle that it supposedly makes broken due to it trapping Chansey with Screech and some "bonus argument" i'd like to present is that Dugtrio can't switch into Heatran directly, the main Dug trapping target due to Magma Storm breaking sash.

So yeah, i think that the problem here is not Dugtrio and if i ever have the chance to vote i will certainly vote No Ban.

 

[Sun King]

Agree with this, Dugtrio is being suspected solely based on its capabilities on stall, i don't think i've ever seen people complaining about Dugtrio offense or balance since some mons that Dugtrio traps are usually stallbreakers, on stall you bring Mega Sableye + 4 mons that wall everything + Dugtrio which traps what beats Mega Sableye and those pokemon that wall supposedly everything.

On offense it's not the same story, it's easier to lay hazards there because the playstyle is more fast paced and if the opponent keeps Stealth Rock on your field your Dug can't switch in on anything due to sash breaking and if you play Dugtrio with no Focus Sash, you will suffer from that problem for the entire match not to mention that Dugtrio in those playstyles is sometimes utter deadweight and stall doesn't care about it since they have Mega Sab to prevent hazards and a ton of bulky mons to wall everything the opponent has to give without being pressured much by hazards, depending on the opposing setters.

Mega Sableye as odeio stall said is reponsible for "Dugtrio being broken in stall", i think that you are blaming the wrong pokemon since Mega Sableye is what makes stall so hard to play against, it shuts down passive stuff, especially those hazard setters and keeps Dugtrio's sash intact, this and more questions in regard to this were already explained by odeio stall, i think that stall with Dugtrio and no Sableye is easier to break than stall with Sableye and no Dugtrio. Also shoutouts to user p2 for touching on this subject, i saw him talking about this on Discord and i agree with everything he said.

I'd like to remember that Dugtrio can help breaking stall, the playstyle that it supposedly makes broken due to it trapping Chansey with Screech and some "bonus argument" i'd like to present is that Dugtrio can't switch into Heatran directly, the main Dug trapping target due to Magma Storm breaking sash.

So yeah, i think that the problem here is not Dugtrio and if i ever have the chance to vote i will certainly vote No Ban.

This right here is the single most convincing argument ITT. It's what I was referring to earlier on; outside of Stall, the only major utility (that isn't better done elsewhere) Dugtrio brings IMHO is trapping Chansey against stall.

 

[hecatomb]

The problem is not dugtrio because this is healthy for metagame, the problem itself is Mega-sableye. Dugtrio is only broken in stall, but good in other playlists. If they want to reduce stall viability the correct one is to ban Mega-Sableye. In many cases, or being more specific before oras and at the moment pos ban Sableye, it has become easier to stall be broken, as a good volturn + hazards is already enough for this, but as you know it is complicated by hazards with Mega-sableye no Team.


Dugtrio on stall heavily relies on Focus Sash and Mega Sableye is the one who makes it harder to break its sash, also Sableye forces out passive pokemon in general and due to those forced switches it becomes easier for Dug to trap something
So it's thanks to this i think that Dugtrio is totally fine and will vote No Ban, if anything Ban Sablenite instead.

M-Sableye is not the problem, and this thread is not about banning M-Sableye; thats completely off topic. Though since you want to be off topic, M-Sableye is not even a problem right now, because there are the tapus, that can at any point deal with it. Countering M-Sableye is not a problem, but when dugtrio comes in, it just hard counters the poke that is going to counter M-Sableye. Other problem is hazards are really hard to set up vs anyone using greninja or pheromosa. The problem is dugtrio, so ban dugtrio.

 

[Dakress]

The problem is not dugtrio because this is healthy for metagame, the problem itself is Mega-sableye. Dugtrio is only broken in stall, but good in other playlists. If they want to reduce stall viability the correct one is to ban Mega-Sableye. In many cases, or being more specific before oras and at the moment pos ban Sableye, it has become easier to stall be broken, as a good volturn + hazards is already enough for this, but as you know it is complicated by hazards with Mega-sableye no Team.

Dugtrio on stall heavily relies on Focus Sash and Mega Sableye is the one who makes it harder to break its sash, also Sableye forces out passive pokemon in general and due to those forced switches it becomes easier for Dug to trap something
So it's thanks to this i think that Dugtrio is totally fine and will vote No Ban, if anything Ban Sablenite instead.

And the thing's that what you're talking about doesn't just affect Duggy, but pretty much also every pokemon with a trapping ability of sorts (except Magnet Pull due to the low number of things it traps). I posted some threads ago a summary of the "Gothstall" situation where Gothithelle (and by extention Wobbufett and Co.) got Shadow Tag banned because it did an eerily similar job to the one Duggy currently provides to stall (aka cripple a stallbreaker and/or get rid of it). And the article also makes emphasis on the point that before M-Sableye was a thing, there wasn't enoght support to ban it. This is why I think suspecting Digtrio itself is is a "temporary measure", because, what's stopping us of suspecting another good Arena Trap user in the future just because of the pressure it forces on a stall team?

If Arena Trap gets banned, Diglett will become the new Dugtrio, and the current suspect ladder's proof of that. I agree with odeio stall that suspecting Sableyenite in the future should definitively be considered, because every evidence we have seems to point out the cause of the whole "trappers in stall are the devil" turmoil is a pokemon that can be defined as the linchpin of stall (and not without reason):

To start, what does Mega Sableye offer a team that makes it so effective? The combination of Magic Bounce, outstanding bulk, a defensive typing that leaves it with only one weakness, and reliable recovery makes Mega Sableye a great pivot. Capable of bouncing back Stealth Rock, Spikes, Taunt, and Toxic, Mega Sableye messes with several traditional methods of breaking down defensive cores.

...Speaking of M-Sableye ban, how was the metagame (and stall in general) after that? I haven't checked that metagame mostly due to Gen 7 opening just when it got banned, so I have no idea if their current situation can back up these claimings.

 

[Sun King]

M-Sableye is not the problem, and this thread is not about banning M-Sableye; thats completely off topic. Though since you want to be off topic, M-Sableye is not even a problem right now, because there are the tapus, that can at any point deal with it. Countering M-Sableye is not a problem, but when dugtrio comes in, it just hard counters the poke that is going to counter M-Sableye. Other problem is hazards are really hard to set up vs anyone using greninja or pheromosa. The problem is dugtrio, so ban dugtrio.

No it doesn't??? Literally the only things it traps and kills that might come in against Sable are Magma Storm Heatran, Hoopa, Zard-X, and Kyu-B, but if you mispredict and Dugtrio gets hurt, it can't trap & KO because it needs sash. Sable is what keeps sash active for Dugtrio, meaning Sable is what supports it so well.

 

[hecatomb]

No it doesn't??? Literally the only things it traps and kills that might come in against Sable are Magma Storm Heatran, Hoopa, Zard-X, and Kyu-B, but if you mispredict and Dugtrio gets hurt, it can't trap & KO because it needs sash. Sable is what keeps sash active for Dugtrio, meaning Sable is what supports it so well.

This thread is not about banning mega sableye, mega sableye the suspect test already happened. This is a Dugtrio suspect test, stop changing the subject. And if shadow tag is banned, theres no reason why Dugtrio should be allowed.

 

[onlyheretocomplain]

And the thing's that what you're talking about doesn't just affect Duggy, but pretty much also every pokemon with a trapping ability of sorts (except Magnet Pull due to the low number of things it traps). I posted some threads ago a summary of the "Gothstall" situation where Gothithelle (and by extention Wobbufett and Co.) got Shadow Tag banned because it did an eerily similar job to the one Duggy currently provides to stall (aka cripple a stallbreaker and/or get rid of it). And the article also makes emphasis on the point that before M-Sableye was a thing, there wasn't enoght support to ban it. This is why I think suspecting Digtrio itself is is a "temporary measure", because, what's stopping us of suspecting another good Arena Trap user in the future just because of the pressure it forces on a stall team?

I think the difference is that Dugtrio can get rid of stallbreakers, while Diglett merely cripples them (unless they're 4x weak to Ground). Volcarona, Mega Charizard X, Hoopa-U, Mega Metagross, Tapu Lele, Tapu Koko (assuming it lacks U-turn), bulky Excadrill, Chansey and Toxapex are weakened by Diglett, but they either have some psuedo-recovery (in Volcarona/Hoopa's case) or are just out of KO range. They're going to have a turn or two after Diglett dies to do something. Dugtrio KOs all of them.

This thread is not about banning mega sableye, mega sableye the suspect test already happened. This is a Dugtrio suspect test, stop changing the subject. And if shadow tag is banned, theres no reason why Dugtrio should be allowed.

Mega Sableye has never been suspected in the Gen 7 metagame. I agree that this isn't the place to discuss a Sableye suspect, but it is the glue that all stall teams depend upon and its existence is why Dugtrio is so powerful to begin with. It's going to come up.

 

[Scribble]

This thread is not about banning mega sableye, mega sableye the suspect test already happened. This is a Dugtrio suspect test, stop changing the subject. And if shadow tag is banned, theres no reason why Dugtrio should be allowed.

There are many key differences between Shadow Tag and Arena Trap. Obviously, Arena Trap is objectively worse than Shadow Tag as it cannot hit Flying types or Pokemon with Levitate. Then the main users of the two abilities function completely differently. Gothitelle could trap you, Trick a Choice Scarf, then proceed to set up to +6 and there was nothing you could do about it. On top of that, Gothitelle could actually live a hit from something and didn't have to rely on a Focus Sash. Meanwhile, Dugtrio is faster and slightly stronger, but cannot set up, and cannot take a hit from pretty much any non-Electric move. The two mons serve a similar role, but the way they fulfill that role is very different.

 

[Hugin]

There are many key differences between Shadow Tag and Arena Trap. Obviously, Arena Trap is objectively worse than Shadow Tag as it cannot hit Flying types or Pokemon with Levitate. Then the main users of the two abilities function completely differently. Gothitelle could trap you, Trick a Choice Scarf, then proceed to set up to +6 and there was nothing you could do about it. On top of that, Gothitelle could actually live a hit from something and didn't have to rely on a Focus Sash. Meanwhile, Dugtrio is faster and slightly stronger, but cannot set up, and cannot take a hit from pretty much any non-Electric move. The two mons serve a similar role, but the way they fulfill that role is very different.

But the users of the abilities being different doesn't mean the abilities themselves are different. We banned Shadow Tag for being OP or uncompetitive(depending on who you ask), is Arena Trap any better just because Salamence and Gyarados can escape?

 

[onlyheretocomplain]

But the users of the abilities being different doesn't mean the abilities themselves are different. We banned Shadow Tag for being OP or uncompetitive(depending on who you ask), is Arena Trap any better just because Salamence and Gyarados can escape?

If taking away the opponent's ability to switch was inherently uncompetitive, all forms of trapping would have been banned 10 years ago. The question of Arena Trap vs. Dugtrio rests entirely how the broken the other two Arena Trap users are.

Shadow Tag was ultimately banned because the entire Gothita line was OP.

 

[Shurtugal]

If taking away the opponent's ability to switch was inherently uncompetitive, all forms of trapping would have been banned 10 years ago. The question of Arena Trap vs. Dugtrio rests entirely how the broken the other two Arena Trap users are.

Shadow Tag was ultimately banned because the entire Gothita line was OP.

Uh, I hate to post another one-liner thing, but I feel the need to correct this.

Shadow Tag was banned because there is a negative stigma attached go trapping, as a lot of players don't acknowledge it as a healthy competitive aspect (it is healthy, btw, trapping is actually really healthy, but that is a discussion for another day). Whynaut and Gothia are trash OU mons and wobbueffeut had like 0 usage (it was really good, but no one was calling for its ban). Shadow Tag got banned because if Gothitelle and the OU Council at the time decided to just blanket ban Shadow Tag because of this recent stigma against trapping.

I'm glad the council decided to suspect only Dugtrio, but I am upset of the timing. There and more important threats that limit teambuilding more than dugtrio, this entire suspect is because the community has a negative stigma against stall and that's not good either because stall is needed to punish the passive teams that don't prepare for stall. The 3 S Tier pokemon struggle more with stall than any of the other playstyles and making stall weaker is only going to make them feel more powerful and broken.

But atlas, I do not want to go into further detail until I have achieved suspect requirements. Then I will have a big post about how dumb this suspect is and how we need to wait before we visit Dugtrio again

For the record: suspect ladder is aids now. Drop of stall usage means less skarm which means more gay baton pass. Idk about yall but I'd rather face dugstall than bp aids...

 

[Scribble]

But the users of the abilities being different doesn't mean the abilities themselves are different. We banned Shadow Tag for being OP or uncompetitive(depending on who you ask), is Arena Trap any better just because Salamence and Gyarados can escape?

The users of the abilities hold more weight than the ability itself. Say there was an ability that turned all types that you would normally resist into immunities, but it was given to a pure Normal type. That would make it completely worthless and not even worth discussing. If it were given to say, a Steel type, then it would be broken. This (hopefully) will never happen, but the same logic can be applied when looking at existing potentially uncompetitive abilities. Are all users of the ability broken? In the case of Arena Trap, there are 3, and 2 of them are LC mons. I'm still under the belief that Dugtrio should not be banned, but suspecting Dugtrio over Arena Trap was the correct move.

Also yes, Arena Trap is better for the meta than Shadow Tag because Flying types and Levitate mons can escape it. This means that of all the mons in OU and BL, 19 of them are unaffected by this, whereas Shadow Tag would only have 2 unaffected.

 

[sam-testings]

I see a lot of No Ban users saying that the reason they are voting to keep Dugtrio is because "it isnt the biggest problem with the stall core". I find this logic flawed simply because Dugtrio is not used solely on stall. In Hector Hard Mode vs. Sweepage in SPL, Dugtrio was used to trap Volcarona and eliminate it, as Volcarona posed a very large threat to the rest of the team. Dugtrio's role in the metagame is not "Trapper for Stall", its just "Trapper", and I feel like a lot of no ban users fail to realise this. Stall is a large part of the problem, but it is not the only reason for the problem. Dugtrio is definitly used on teams outside of stall teams to great effect, doing its job very very well. There has already been a while discussion on wether or not Arena Trap is uncompetitive or not above, but I feel that people have to remember Dugtrio exists on teams outside of stall.

 

[Sun King]

I see a lot of No Ban users saying that the reason they are voting to keep Dugtrio is because "it isnt the biggest problem with the stall core". I find this logic flawed simply because Dugtrio is not used solely on stall. In Hector Hard Mode vs. Sweepage in SPL, Dugtrio was used to trap Volcarona and eliminate it, as Volcarona posed a very large threat to the rest of the team. Dugtrio's role in the metagame is not "Trapper for Stall", its just "Trapper", and I feel like a lot of no ban users fail to realise this. Stall is a large part of the problem, but it is not the only reason for the problem. Dugtrio is definitly used on teams outside of stall teams to great effect, doing its job very very well. There has already been a while discussion on wether or not Arena Trap is uncompetitive or not above, but I feel that people have to remember Dugtrio exists on teams outside of stall.

We aren't saying it only exists on Stall; we're saying it's much harder to use outside of stall and significantly less of a problem. Providing one example in which Dugtrio was able to trap and kill something doesn't really prove its brokenness so much as just point to one instance in which someone made a good play. In order for that Dugtrio to make that play, its user had to ensure it wouldn't lose its Focus Sash, meaning once rocks/spikes go down, that KO isn't guaranteed.

Additionally, it can be hard to say how much of an unhealthy effect Dugtrio ALONE has because the metagame was shaped around threats such as Mega-Metagross, Pheromosa, Tapu Lele, Greninja (both forms), etc. Dugtrio is effective right now because the metagame has adapted favorably for it. Banning it right now seems premature given that the only major change to the metagame will be one of tactics, not metagame makeup. It's not like we're going to have this vastly new meta after the Dugtrio ban; we're likely going to see the same stall archetype (I'm using one to great success right now) with Muk/Weavile/TTar replacing Duggy as trappers (Martin pointed this out well).

EDIT: Additionally, a lot of the rhetoric I see on the Pro-Ban side is that Dugtrio can and will always be able to trap the biggest threat to any given team, which is really far from the truth. It's not Mega Gengar back in XY.

 

[hecatomb]

If taking away the opponent's ability to switch was inherently uncompetitive, all forms of trapping would have been banned 10 years ago. The question of Arena Trap vs. Dugtrio rests entirely how the broken the other two Arena Trap users are.

Shadow Tag was ultimately banned because the entire Gothita line was OP.

Thats the thing, gothitelle did counter some pokemon in ou at the time. The meta is completely different now, im sure gothitelle with shadow tag wouldnt even be a treat now in OU, like what is it going to counter now? Dugtrio actually counters more than gothitelle right now.

 

[Sun King]

Thats the thing, gothitelle did counter some pokemon in ou at the time. The meta is completely different now, im sure gothitelle with shadow tag wouldnt even be a treat now in OU, like what is it going to counter now? Dugtrio actually counters more than gothitelle right now.

Gothitelle would be able to trap and kill:

This is off topic

Tapu Fini, Celesteela, Heatran, Amoongus, Keldeo, Manaphy, Rotom-W, Skarmory, Tangrowth(?), Volcarona, Chansey/Blissey, Latios, Toxapex, Zapdos, and many MANY more in B+ and below

And that's just S through A- ranks alone. And without a Focus Sash. Or team support. All of which Goth can switch in. Don't even try to act like Dugtrio and Gothitelle are even remotely on the same level. Goth can switch in infinitely easier. Dugtrio does not counter anywhere near as many things; it just revenge kills certain things better.

Getting back on track, the entire point of suspect tests (as opposed to a quick ban) is to see how we like the new meta in comparison to the old one. I'm gonna be honest here, my experience has been largely unchanged except my Chanseys are safer and so are a few threats Dugtrio liked to trap. I'm not noticing any major shifts in team makeup or new threats that were previously unviable. Honestly, the only difference I'm noticing is a tactical one rather than anything else.
What is everyone else seeing?

 

[elodin]

I can't be bothered to read every post thus far or write something lengthy myself, or even bother writing a full argument for why dug should be banned. I have seen some decent arguments for and against the ban, but one thing I've noticed is that a lot of people are only thinking about dugtrio with regards to stall and coming to conclusions based on that. Dugtrio can very easily be utilized on any type of team and immediately restrict the opponent straight from team preview, even if it is never sent out in the entire game. Just an example, in my SPL game vs ABR, dugtrio never got sent out, but it still helped me in the game because he had to be careful about leaving in his rain sweepers as rain ended (and if I was good and running jolly, I would be able to outrun his swift swim sweepers even while rain was up), since I could pick them off with some prior damage. Did I ever intend for dugtrio to function like that? Not actively, I just wanted a fast revenge killer that didn't give my opponent room to play around. If someone used volcarona against me with that team, all I had to do was not give it two turns to quiver dance, and dugtrio could come in right after and cleanly remove it from the game. If I used scarf garchomp instead, the volcarona would be able to still switch out and kill something the next time it came back in, and going hard garchomp would risk hp ice and me just losing the next time volcarona had an opportunity to set up. With other mons I can easily cover a variety of opposing mons, but with dugtrio I can ensure that my opponent's target mons will have no counterplay, or that they will have to play differently to avoid getting trapped. And its not even that duggy has just one viable set, it can easily be catered to defeat a myriad of other mons. Dugtrio removes counterplay with its ability, and that's why it is uncompetitive. This isn't a matter of removing the inconvenience dug brings when trying to break stall, its that near-universal trapping doesn't require any skill to utilize effectively and is uncompetitive. Needless to say, Ban Dug.

So you gave us a huge amount of one example in which Dugtrio was actually a pretty good Pokémon due to its ability, but still not fully sure how is your example good considering a) Rain in general is quite rare; b) Other than Kingdra / Omastar / Kabutops (?) I don't think Dugtrio traps anything else in Rain teams; c) Dugtrio is still useless against things like Tornadus-T and Tapu Koko (with U-turn).

So let's take a look at your match...

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-241051

It has a total of eleven turns, in which we don't see ABR being forced to switch out a single Rain threat or be careful around them due to "Dugtrio's presence in your team". I mean I'm not saying Dugtrio is bad against ABR's team, I'm just not sure where in this match we actually see Dugtrio being broken? I mean ABR would've lost the exact same way if you had a Pikachu instead of a Dugtrio... maybe he stays in and kills Keldeo, but he'd be forced to switch out eventually anyway. Are you actually using this match to make a point?

There are lots of better, closer matches in which we see great players having to play extremely carefully around Dugtrio and other trappers. It happens all the time in older generations too. In these matches we can see how much skill is required from both parties when playing around trappers.

Now let's get into some different games, some that hopefully will show Dugtrio's role a little bit better:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-248998 - Dug gets 40% of damage on Kyurem-B and dies.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-249016 - Dug dies without doing anything.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-245175 - Dug dies without doing anything.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-245183 - Dug threatens to kill Thundurus a lot with Stone Edge, but by doing so it gives Bronzong free Stealth Rocks. Dug actually manages to trap a 30% HP Thundurus with Pursuit and it also traps Tyranitar... but then it gives a free SD to Landorus-T as a result and the game ends.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-243868 - Dug doesn't do anything.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-245377 - Dug gets a Toxic off on Rotom-W and dies without doing anything else.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-245369 - Dug traps a Pokémon after it does a lot of damage to the stall team and is at a position where it would die 2 turns afterwards and wouldn't be able to set up in case it switched out regardless.

So in these matches we see how Dugtrio looks like in most games. It actually helped its opponents more than it helped its team in most of them, since it gave free setup opportunities in almost all of them... this is what Dugtrio looks like. A 0% win ratio in the last 2 weeks of SPL... this is probably the worst "uncompetitive" strategy I have ever seen.

And I mean you wanna tell me we aren't looking at Dugtrio outside of stall? Honestly it looks like you guys aren't looking at Dugtrio outside of stall... all the examples you give are completely biased and none of which discredit what I already said in my post (that Dugtrio's trapping is balanced because it is a very limited Pokémon with a very limited ability too).

Take an actual look at Dugtrio outside of stall: a niche Pokémon that more often than not doesn't offer much to a match. I mean people who actually think this suspect isn't because of stall are either trolling or being completely blind to a plethora of arguments that clearly show why Dugtrio isn't broken.

 

[hecatomb]

Gothitelle would be able to trap and kill:

This is off topic

Tapu Fini, Celesteela, Heatran, Amoongus, Keldeo, Manaphy, Rotom-W, Skarmory, Tangrowth(?), Volcarona, Chansey/Blissey, Latios, Toxapex, Zapdos, and many MANY more in B+ and below

And that's just S through A- ranks alone. And without a Focus Sash. Or team support. All of which Goth can switch in. Don't even try to act like Dugtrio and Gothitelle are even remotely on the same level. Goth can switch in infinitely easier. Dugtrio does not counter anywhere near as many things; it just revenge kills certain things better.

Getting back on track, the entire point of suspect tests (as opposed to a quick ban) is to see how we like the new meta in comparison to the old one. I'm gonna be honest here, my experience has been largely unchanged except my Chanseys are safer and so are a few threats Dugtrio liked to trap. I'm not noticing any major shifts in team makeup or new threats that were previously unviable. Honestly, the only difference I'm noticing is a tactical one rather than anything else.
What is everyone else seeing?

Gothitelle doesnt trap rotom due to it volt switching, it cant trap a roar Heatran, it cant trap Skarmory, cause of whirlwind, Volcarona gets of its quiver dance and does bug buzz Gothitelle dies, the other mons you mentioned are not even a big threat. Theres still no good reason to have shadow tag banned, if you are going to allow arena trap. Dugtrio also traps a lot of b tiers also not, maybe more than Gothitelle.

And BTW ((papai noel)) those vids where really bad, like he had Heatran out, and didnt even trap him with dug, and who brings in dug on kyurem black, who fights a rotom-w with dug?

 

[volx757]

So let's take a look at your match...

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-241051

It has a total of eleven turns, in which we don't see ABR being forced to switch out a single Rain threat or be careful around them due to "Dugtrio's presence in your team". I mean I'm not saying Dugtrio is bad against ABR's team, I'm just not sure where in this match we actually see Dugtrio being broken? I mean ABR would've lost the exact same way if you had a Pikachu instead of a Dugtrio... maybe he stays in and kills Keldeo, but he'd be forced to switch out eventually anyway. Are you actually using this match to make a point?

There are lots of better, closer matches in which we see great players having to play extremely carefully around Dugtrio and other trappers. It happens all the time in older generations too. In these matches we can see how much skill is required from both parties when playing around trappers.

Now let's get into some different games, some that hopefully will show Dugtrio's role a little bit better:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-248998 - Dug gets 40% of damage on Kyurem-B and dies.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-249016 - Dug dies without doing anything.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-245175 - Dug dies without doing anything.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-245183 - Dug threatens to kill Thundurus a lot with Stone Edge, but by doing so it gives Bronzong free Stealth Rocks. Dug actually manages to trap a 30% HP Thundurus with Pursuit and it also traps Tyranitar... but then it gives a free SD to Landorus-T as a result and the game ends.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-243868 - Dug doesn't do anything.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-245377 - Dug gets a Toxic off on Rotom-W and dies without doing anything else.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-245369 - Dug traps a Pokémon after it does a lot of damage to the stall team and is at a position where it would die 2 turns afterwards and wouldn't be able to set up in case it switched out regardless.

Sorry for very short post but..

Granted the post you were responding to only used 1 game as an example, but your post isn't much better considering you literally cherry picked games in which dug doesn't do anything. These games don't "show Dugtrio's role a little bit better." Are you seriously saying that dugtrio's role is to be mostly useless, and that a large chunk of the community, and OU council, are entirely misguided in suspecting (let alone ban/don't ban for now) this poke?
When we get into replays like this, it has to be done like toshimelonhead did on page 2, showing all relevant replays from whatever institution you chose to draw from.

 

[Karxrida]

I find it interesting that people are complaining how this suspect is anti-stall, yet in the past we've been totally cool with kicking out stuff like Deo-D that only benefits specific playstyles such as HO. Many suspects are unrelated to stall or even benefit it (I'd even argue the site has a pro-stall bias), so let it get shafted for once.

Regardless, Dugtrio needs to go. As pointed out earlier and probably more eloquently by users like pika pal and Creator of Chaos, its ability to trap has a severely detrimental effect on games. Something that used to actually be balanced in past years (like Gen III) now basically decides matches in one turn due to the sheer increase of threats putting more strain on teams and teambuilding so the removal on one Mon is much more devastating, and Dugtrio's mere presence in team preview will negatively affect player choice. It's not healthy to keep in OU.

Edit: Fixed spelling and grammar and removed weirdness caused by my phone's autocorrect.

 

[Tele]

Dugtrio only fits into stall. When fit into any other playstyle it is basically a dead weight. Ill link some replays as an example

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-241242
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-241234
> ost matches between oglemi and msc knightmare

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-249016
>spl match between p2 and abr
Im sure theres many other but in from phone rn so will link later

Also i'm glad people are realizing sableye- mega is what makes dugtrio "broken" keeping intact his sash and blocking taunt users that would otherwise have a good matchup against stall, as i already stated here. Stall is not broken, we just dont have enough tools because of mega sableye. Remember when stuff like taunt mew taunt mandibuzz or taunt gliscor was actually good versus stall?

 

[shiloh]

holy shit i usually dont post in suspect threads for ou but selectively choosing replays to prove your point does nothing

let me link some games where duggy does something on offense to prove a non existent point i have because thats a direct mirror to what you are doing and at the end of the day you have to look at both sides instead of cherry picking the points you like

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7pokebankou-234706 - sweepage vs hector hard mode for spl
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-241552 - snowy vs geemick for spl
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-241826 - sabella vs jamvad for spl
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-239674 - p2 vs dragonuser for spl
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-241164 - reyscarface for mael for spl

obviously there are a ton more but im not going to bother searching for them because i think my point is made. if you guys want to keep linking high level games to prove dugtrio isnt broken link all games instead of cherry picking 1-2 that prove your point. by opening yourself up and considering multiple viewpoints and linking more than one side it offers more validity to your point that might as well be a fully valid one but unless you provide all the evidence your argument loses all validity.

 

[Colonel M]

Rozes hit the nail on the head.

Even though Dugtrio is rather niche on offensive teams it can provide crucial support. It is a lot like Magnezone in that it traps and secures kills on Pokemon that otherwise bodyblock. Think of bulky Volcarona as an example - being stopped by Heatran is dicks and Heatran can be a hard mon to take down for some teams. Dugtrio ensures that such a threat is eliminated to help. Yes bulky Volcarona is stopped by more than just Heatran, but that is one specific example.

Offensive teams have the liberty to run its other sets like Scarf, Band, and Tectonic Rage. I have no clue where "Dugtrio only fits into stall" came from, but coming from a person who's used the mon in other generations and Gen 7 I assure you it fits in more than just stall teams.