Should Wobuffet be allowed back in?

[THE_IRON_...KENYAN?]

I'm against clausing of all sorts, so I'd be more than happy to try Wobbuffet in DP (along with DT and OHKO).


How do annoyers "beat" Wobbuffet? You encore the annoy move like Thunder Wave and then switch in to something immune, like Landshark.

who says you cant? its dp wifi dude, you can do ANYTHING.(except cheat)

also my opinion on the wobba being alowed in OU is that if somebody can find a counter for wobba, he can be allowed in. unfortunately, there is no effective counter for him, but i have figured out something that "might" be able to do something effective while he is there. im thinking of glion, i mean sure there is the risk of him getting encored but he has taunt, the magic move that can make a wobba switch just like that. if you can predict well, you can possibly get a SD in and b-pass it to someone else. hes just a thought so dont rip on me if it is "dumb" or "stupid" idea, hes just a thought.

 

[Surgo]

who says you cant? its dp wifi dude, you can do ANYTHING.(except cheat)

Uh, we're talking about standard play over Competitor here. I'm perfectly aware that I can do what I want to randoms over wifi.

 

[Misty]

As a general rule, I tend to assume that WiFi with Smogoners will follow the same rules as Competitor, seeing as the latter will be a testing environment for the former.

 

[THE_IRON_...KENYAN?]

oh, you guys are talking about competitor? sorry, i thought this was a general discussion about him. also, a CB slaking could maybe ohko wobba. i dont know much about wobba's durability, but it might just work.

 

[Phuquoph]

Wobb can actually survive a CB Giga Attack from Slaking.

I think a CB Heracross Megahorn and a CG PorygonZ Hyper Beam are the only things that're guaranteed to OHKO. Except powerful Explosions of course.

That's why Wobb is such a twat, it's incredibly hard to OHKO him.

 

[Surgo]

also, a CB slaking could maybe ohko wobba. i dont know much about wobba's durability, but it might just work.

* 690 attack vs. 105 defense, 153 power, times 1.000000: 497-585 (min defense wobbuffet)
* 690 attack vs. 165 defense, 153 power, times 1.000000: 351-414 (max defense wobbuffet)
* 690 attack vs. 181 defense, 153 power, times 1.000000: 320-377 (max+ defense wobbuffet)

Please, as elaborated in the updated rules topic, run a damage calculation or three next time instead of posting "I think".

Keep in mind these are all with max+ attack Slaking.

Wobb can be OHKOed by a max+ attack Slaking if Wobb isn't max+ defense, max HP; however it's quite a bit more likely to barely miss the OHKO.

 

[THE_IRON_...KENYAN?]

* 690 attack vs. 105 defense, 153 power, times 1.000000: 497-585 (min defense wobbuffet)
* 690 attack vs. 165 defense, 153 power, times 1.000000: 351-414 (max defense wobbuffet)
* 690 attack vs. 181 defense, 153 power, times 1.000000: 320-377 (max+ defense wobbuffet)

Please, as elaborated in the updated rules topic, run a damage calculation or three next time instead of posting "I think".

Keep in mind these are all with max+ attack Slaking.

Wobb can be OHKOed by a max+ attack Slaking if Wobb isn't max+ defense, max HP; however it's quite a bit more likely to barely miss the OHKO.

where is the damage calculator?

 

[Surgo]

There is an online one available here; I posted a more generic one to the board [thread=16437]here[/thread]. The wonderful Metalkid also has one here.

 

[Matt]

should never have been banned in the first place. netbattle's current rules are all messed up anyway. what would wobbuffet be able to do against something with double team?

 

[Surgo]

should never have been banned in the first place. netbattle's current rules are all messed up anyway. what would wobbuffet be able to do against something with double team?

Encore it, and switch to something with a better set-up move like Dragon Dance (assuming the DTer isn't also a BPer).

Not that I'm attempting to show Wobbuffet as broken or anything; as I said, I dislike the large number of clauses.

 

[Matt]

i'd be fine with wobbuffet switching in every other turn and wasting all its encores. the move only has 8 pp max, and if it's not countering/mirror coating me then i don't really care what it does.

to be honest, dugtrio scares me more than wobbuffet, since it can immediately kill anything slower that's weak to ground, and things with moderate defenses get a huge chunk of HP knocked off.

it just seems like a huge waste to me. in GSC, wobbuffet was beyond even a joke pokemon, as it could do absolutely NOTHING. then gamefreak decided to make it usable, and it's immediately banned because people don't feel like fighting it, even though no one ever thinks of banning hp zapdos/cm suicune/cm raikou/curselax. the thing is, all of those are perfectly legal and should be allowed, just like wobbuffet.

 

[Pyr0]

Recoil does 25% damage now, that should limit both Blissey and Wobby struggle wars...

IMO, we should let Wobby be in OU, in the begining months, to test it out, give it a chance like everything new. and then depending on the results, decide its destiny.

 

[chewy]

should never have been banned in the first place. netbattle's current rules are all messed up anyway. what would wobbuffet be able to do against something with double team?

Encore and switch to Machamp. I'm going to love abusing Dynamic Punch. I have a feeling that if No Guard affects 1HKO's, Machamp is going to be everywhere on WiFi. Too bad you can't tell who's using 1HKO or not on WiFi.

to be honest, dugtrio scares me more than wobbuffet, since it can immediately kill anything slower that's weak to ground, and things with moderate defenses get a huge chunk of HP knocked off.

Off topic but, dugtrio is the only poke keeping me from using CB/mix T-tar and heracross off every team I make. w/o duggie around, those two pokes would pwn the metagame.

===========================
A non-Banded Infernape might be a good counter to Wobby, it carries both high power physical and special fire moves that could 2/3HKO Wobby.

I imagine a scenario like this:
Infernape vs Wobby:
Wobby switches in.
Infernape used Scheme!

Infernape used Flare Drive!
Wobby used Mirror Coat!
It failed!

Infernape used Fire Blast!
Wobby fainted!
==============================

As for Wobby's EVs, it can really only specialize in physical or special, but not both. Wobby would probably make the metagame less CB/AG/AB based and more mixed sweeper based. It should definitely be given a chance though.

Speaking of Wobby counters, a faster encore would also hurt. Not to mention encore is great if you are predicting a swords dance/CM/scheme/EQ/curse, which are going to be rampant.

 

[Brock †]

1 simple Wobby counter: Somersault.

It is super effective, has 140 BP, and switches you out.
________________________________________________
Others

Teleport also now works in-battle, although it still sucks.

Baton Pass

Crescent Dance

Explosion/Self Destruct

Houndoom/Sabelye/Mikaruge. (2/3 are immune to both, Houndoom attacks special and is immune to Mirror Coat).

Taunt: Doesn't affect counter/mirror coat, but stops Destiny Bond/Encore.

Torment? (Well they can't always use counter/mirror coat, even though they want to after encore).
_________________________

Does Wobby get healed from Shell Bell after using Counter/Mirror Coat? That would be awsome...
If only Wobby learned Bide.

 

[Forsety]

Excuse me in saying this, but isn't the sole reason Wobbuffet was thrown into 00bers was because a Wobby vs Wobby is stalemate?

If its true Shadowtag negates itself there really should not be any reason to keep it banned.

 

[Mekkah]

Please, for Aruseus' sake, Stop calling things like Somersault and certain Pokemon sets (especially overspecialized ones like a Goku with 2 Fire moves) counters. If it were that simple it would've been allowed, but as it stands, Wobbuffet requires your ENTIRE team to have Beautiful Skin, Baton Pass, Teleport or Somersault (or something I missed) to actually switch into it. If it can't do that, it's not a counter.

Baton Pass requires another Pokemon that can actually scare Wobbuffet.

Crescent Dance requires another Pokemon that can actually scare Wobbuffet. Let's kill your own Pokemon to get in something else. Works once, but doesn't really hurt Wobbuffet in any way.

Explosion/Self Destruct If Explosion/Selfdestruct was a counter to anything, Metagross would be a Suicune counter. But it's not.

Houndoom/Sabelye/Mikaruge. (2/3 are immune to both, Houndoom attacks special and is immune to Mirror Coat). Pursuit now hits Wobbuffet physical, he will just switch out and come back later to kill something else, or kill with Counter.

Taunt: Doesn't affect counter/mirror coat, but stops Destiny Bond/Encore. oh I guess you'll have to use 5 Taunters and a Houndoom then

Torment? (Well they can't always use counter/mirror coat, even though they want to after encore). Wobbuffet Encores Torment and you're going to get buttfucked. Usually Wobbuffet's attacking sequence is Encore/counterattack anyway, followed by a switch.

Excuse me in saying this, but isn't the sole reason Wobbuffet was thrown into 00bers was because a Wobby vs Wobby is stalemate?

If its true Shadowtag negates itself there really should not be any reason to keep it banned.

It's clearly not the only reason, as you may have noticed when reading this thread

it just seems like a huge waste to me. in GSC, wobbuffet was beyond even a joke pokemon, as it could do absolutely NOTHING. then gamefreak decided to make it usable, and it's immediately banned because people don't feel like fighting it, even though no one ever thinks of banning hp zapdos/cm suicune/cm raikou/curselax. the thing is, all of those are perfectly legal and should be allowed, just like wobbuffet.

What Wobbuffet was in GSC isn't relevant for Advance at all. Magneton and Dugtrio were dumb shitheads in GSC and are really powerful now. Wobbuffet just goes one step further and goes from neverused to broken.

People have thought of banning HP legends, Justin actually did it for an entire Smogon Tour system. From what he says it becomes a more stale metagame with lots of walling and stalling. In other words, it makes the game less fun. Wobbuffet essentially does the same but to an even worse extent.

Curselax and all these other things are also not uncounterable by definition. Wobbuffet is. DP gives you a few more options, but you have to put one of them on every single of your Pokemon to avoid Wobbuffet killing even one of your comrades.

Also while I personally detest Dugtrio, it creates balance, while Wobbuffet makes the metagame centralized. Dugtrio kills tons of Pokemon that are used world-wide to avoid them from being broken. Wobbuffet himself is pretty broken and counters about everything except those few with Taunt, Baton Pass, etc. Do you really want to make Baton Pass teams and Taunt Gyarados/Tyranitar to be even more usable?

 

[X-Act]

Excuse me in saying this, but isn't the sole reason Wobbuffet was thrown into 00bers was because a Wobby vs Wobby is stalemate?

If its true Shadowtag negates itself there really should not be any reason to keep it banned.

Well, Wobby versus Wobby is a stalemate also in ADV ubers, and it's allowed. So that's obviously not the only reason. The real reason is that ADV Wobbuffet either gets an OHKO for free, or just gives an unstoppable opportunity for another Pokemon to setup. Whether this will stay the case in DP is debatable, but probably, it will.

I think Substitute can be an okay counter to Wobbu, too, although it's not foolproof. But, as Mekkah says, you'll need your whole team to have a move that counters Wobbu. That is surely overcentralisation of the metagame.

 

[e4protector]

A lot of stuff will actually counter Wobbuffet if you think about it. Any stat upper counters it because if it comes in and you boost, you keep boosting if encored. That's never good. Now suddenly your opponent's Infernape has +4 SAtk or their Gablias has +4 Atk. If Wobbu switches you can too, and if it doesn't Wobbuffet and its entire team is fucked. 2 SD'd Blaze Kick will OHKO Skarmory and 2 Scheme'd Focus Bomb will 2HKO (if not OHKO) Blissey. Wobbuffet will only get one kill if it tries to come in on, say, AG Zapdos/CBMence/etc. because like any hit (or spikes/SR) will kill Wobbu after taking two CB'd/AG'd hits.

Any kind of annoyer will kill it too, like Toxic Milotic, etc. because it can't kill it unless it attacks and it can't D-bond it either.

Also, as X-Act says, Substitute can beat it too. Sub and it can't hit you on that turn, then if you hit it and it picks the right counter move, it can only kill your sub.

 

[Mekkah]

Wobbuffet doesn't mind Substitute or any stat-upper at all. It will Encore, and then Wobbuffet's team can party. The more obvious uses:
- getting a free Focus Punch in the balls from Heracross or Medicham, or any move from fragile Pokemon
- Dugtrio completely running any non-Flier over as long as Encore doesn't run out in its minimum time...this is dangers for that oh so threatening +4 Attack Gouzaraku that cannot even attack now!
- Anything with Belly Drum setting up in your face.

If you Toxic Wobbuffet, you have :somewhat: nullified it. Doesn't take away that it will Encore it, Safeguard, and provide the same set-up to anything as ever. Or he could not Safeguard and let Heracross/Ursaring come in, take the Toxic and own with Guts/Quick Feet.

Also "annoyers" don't work. Per definition. Toxic Milotic isn't an annoyer, it's a Milotic with Toxic.

Wobbuffet will only get one kill if it tries to come in on, say, AG Zapdos/CBMence/etc. because like any hit (or spikes/SR) will kill Wobbu after taking two CB'd/AG'd hits.

Who is dense enough to bring in Wobbuffet into those if he wants more than one kill? Bring it in on something defensive like Skarmory or Blissey, or one of these gazillion Psychics.

With all due respect/no offense etc, but if you don't know how Wobbuffet works (or is supposed to work) I don't think you should vouch for its ban or unban.

 

[Jumpman16]

Mekkah, I think for your sake we should make this thread required reading for anyone who seriously wants to chime in on this topic. Advance isn't DP, yes, but a lot of the things people are actually arguing will not change. I'm still not really going to chime in here, and I think it says something about the subject matter when jump actually refuses to type up walls of words!

 

[chewy]

Jump's link convinced me that Wob should be tried out in the new gen. Even back then 40% chose to have Wob in the metagame. The main argument against Wob had been the double Wob trap, which is now moot. And again, you don't need 20 counters for it, a good set-up poke like DDtar, in the hands of a skilled player can outpredict and sweep. With somesault (if counter doesn't affect the incoming or outgoing poke), you just have even more room for counters.

 

[Surgo]

Argh, thanks Jump. I was searching for a very thread like that but I couldn't find it.

Did you even read what I said earlier, e4protector? You said the very same thing, again, and failed to address it at all.

How do annoyers "beat" Wobbuffet? You encore the annoy move like Thunder Wave and then switch in to something immune, like Landshark.

Wobbuffet/Dugtrio is a fairly evil combination that I hadn't thought of for a while...anything not a flier or a levitater is pretty much dead.

 

[Bliksem]

I'll chime in for a second to give second the notion of letting Wobbuffet in just for testing purposes alone. I have no desire to face this thing in battle, and the main team I'm developing has some rather annoying issues with it.

 

[Mekkah]

Jump's link convinced me that Wob should be tried out in the new gen. Even back then 40% chose to have Wob in the metagame. The main argument against Wob had been the double Wob trap, which is now moot. And again, you don't need 20 counters for it, a good set-up poke like DDtar, in the hands of a skilled player can outpredict and sweep. With somesault (if counter doesn't affect the incoming or outgoing poke), you just have even more room for counters.

Thanks for linking that thread Jump, yet another person who doesn't see it. ):

DD Tyranitar and Somersault are simply not Wobbuffet counters. Even a smart player cannot prevent Wobbuffet coming on one of your other 4 Pokemon and literally and figuratively trapping them. You're forcing them into the horrible dilemma of dying or risking your entire team dying. It's so simple to use Wobbuffet to his full power when you know how to.

Then again it seems many people don't know how to use it.

 

[evolutia]

Thanks for linking that thread Jump, yet another person who doesn't see it. ):

DD Tyranitar and Somersault are simply not Wobbuffet counters. Even a smart player cannot prevent Wobbuffet coming on one of your other 4 Pokemon and literally and figuratively trapping them. You're forcing them into the horrible dilemma of dying or risking your entire team dying. It's so simple to use Wobbuffet to his full power when you know how to.

Then again it seems many people don't know how to use it.

You know why people don't know how to use it? Because they haven't gotten the chance to test it, that's why d/p is the perfect testing grounds for Wobbuffet then they can see for themselves how broken Wobbuffet is or not.