Salamence - The Face of The Next Suspect, or Merely OU's Strongest Dragon?

[Kumar628]

I think the two sets we should discuss are DD Mence and New Mixmence because they are the most threatening sets. The rest of them are not too powerful to make Salamence uber.

Not entirely true. Since Bulky Offense is dominant in OU (so it seems), Bulky Mence has been popping up quite a bit for me. His defensive sets can be great on bulky offense teams, and has been as I've seen. Even with Stealth Rock, if he switches into a resisted choiced attack or Scizor, then he can Roost off both the attack and SR damage (and the second Bullet Punch) to get going again.


Calc for this:

Choice Banded Scizor Bullet Punch vs. Physically Bulky Salamence after Intimidate: 107dmg - 126dmg.

From 394 HP (252 HP EVs), Stealth Rock takes 99 HP from switching in. Salamence is left with 43 HP, assuming both hits are max damage, by the second Bullet Punch. (Sorry if percentages are preferred)

I can see Salamence being tested in Suspect. It hits hard, it has considerable bulk, further boosted by Intimidate. It even has a nice supporting role, and it supports by doing both of the above. Offense breaks walls and Bulky sets can take some neutral-effective revenge attempts (i.e. ScarfLatias Tbolt, CBScizor BulletPunch, ScarfGar Shadow Ball, ScarfZone Tbolt and more). I think that if a "broken" poke is defined as highly versatile, dominates the OU metagame, and has absolutely zero true counters (and a highly limited amount of checks), then Salamence is essentially just that. He can use Specs, Band, Scarf, he has an incredible set up move, he has an instant-recovery move and post-turn recovery move (in Roost and Wish), and he has good bulk. All this versatility along with the fact that he can fit into the most dominant team form in OU along with others (HO, semi-stall, and anti-stall) with not just one set (DD and CB and CSpecs for HO, Phys. & Spec. Bulky and FatMence for semi-stall and Bulkey Offense, and New & Old & DD MixMence for anti-stall), Salamence is at least worth Suspect Testing.

Also, being vulnerable to revenge kills from the likes of Mamoswine, Weavile, ScarfNape, and Scarf Starmie does not mean that they are Salamence counters. These are merely 4 checks that are not very effective in itself. In any way you look at it, Salamence almost guarantees a kill with its offensive and bulky sets, because none of these Revenge Killers can revenge kill if they switch out their current pokemon. They'll essentially die if they switch in like that.

In my opinion and experience, Salamence deserves Suspect Testing. His standard sets are all very useful and more than one set can be implemented in every form of team (bar stall and Hail), while his vast movepool allows people to make custom sets that can succeed in the metagame. His rightful place at the #2 most used pokemon in the metagame in the month of December, 2009 also shows how useful he is on teams (win or lose). Anyway, back to my original thought, we shouldn't entirely focus on his hardest hitting sets because he also fares great defensively. Note his other sets rather than solely his offensive/hardest hitting.

That's all I've got to say.

 

[Objection]

I've seen the following statement a lot: "If Salamence can take out 1 pokemon, then it has done its job."

I'd like to raise a question: how many pokemon on Salamence's team (other than Salamence) are likely to be known by the time it first comes out?

If the answer is 5 (ie, Salamence is the last pokemon to come out) then the quoted statement is false, because by that point Salamence will either need to take out everything or a particular pokemon on his opponent's team, and as long as this opponent is not down to his last pokemon, he can prevent Salamence from doing its job by sending in something else to take the coup de grace. After all, once you know all 6 of your opponent's pokemon, odds are you'll have one pokemon alive that you could win the battle without. Death fodder, if you will.

If Salamence is the 5th pokemon to be revealed, the death fodder tactic is riskier because there is still one unrevealed pokemon, but if you've seen Salamence and 4 other pokemon on the team, you should be able to deduce what kind of pokemon the last one is, what your most likely response to it will be and which pokemon would be rather useless vs the unrevealed threat and the rest of the team. This means that, once again, Salamence can kill a pokemon and still not do its job.

 

[Aura Guardian]

Probability isn't irrelevant, because it is how we identify (in part) what sets are the most dangerous. Your argument, however, is flawed; just as almost every argument citing Smeargle has been so far. Suspect/Uber analysis is not based just on one set, otherwise that set could be banned. Suspect/Uber analysis looks at the pokemon overall, and multiple sets with potential can interact with each other. For most pokemon, this doesn't make a difference because the checks to the different sets are largely the same, or at least overlap a great deal. With Salamence, it has been argued that the checks to one set are totalled by the other, and vice-versa. This increases the power of Salamence significantly because it puts the defending player down to a coinflip chance at completely losing.

In regards to the oft-cited Smeargle example: it is not the collection of moves that makes the set. The set includes the pokemon stats. Smeargle's stats are so low that none of it's sets are even arguably a problem.

Salamence's stats are so high, that just spending a turn to work out what set it is running will frequently cause you to lose a pokemon, which means it has already achieved it's purpose in battle, and you haven't even dealt with it. Furthermore, if it uses something like Earthquake, you don't even have any information about what set it is.

Offensive power is not the only Uber qualification. My citing of Smeargle was simply as a comparison for Smeargles support capabilities. Also, the collection of moves is the set. Stats are just how well it can be used. Also, Salamence is prone to some revenge KOs. Scizor is so sky-high in use, and can Bullet Punch Salamence so well that Salamence is very likely to be checked. Also, other pokemon, some of whom see actual use by skilled players, can give Salamence a hard time. What I meant by "probability is irrelvant" is that we need to deal with the top set(s) first and solo, not all at once. If Salamence is put on your team, what is his efficiency, the amount of damage he does compared to the damage he does to the team by taking up a moveslot? Back to probability: It all averages out. If salamence DDs, guessing the probability of you not having a counter or check, and you switch to one that can shrug off Salamence's power, or just OHKO, then what good did Salamence do, and didn't probability destroy Salamence? If probability of Salamence to destroy based on a guess can be put onto the discussion, so can Salamence's controller guessing wrong. Also, Draco Meteor leaves Salamence mostly crippled on the offence for the rest of it's duration in front. Shouldn't the balancing aspects also be considered?

EDIT: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64977 may provide us with a source of evidence. The mods and admins statements may prove quite useful for this discussion.

 

[Assassin of the Red Sands]

i may be a noob, but i know that any version of salamance can be slayed even if it has set up a couple DD's

for example, rhyperior could survive an attack and then counter kill with avalanhe

besides, in Ubers, Garchomp ( and most Ubers) would destroy it, making it unusable in the uber tier

Edit: Sorry for the noobness
and
UBER STATUS IS DETERMINED BY POWER IN OU, NOT IN UBERS

 

[Aura Guardian]

Uber status is determined by ability in OU, not Ubers. Please, stop bringing up competitiveness in Ubers! In any case, how common is Rhyperior? I advocate OU not Ubers for Salamence, but one of my loyalties is to logic. Can we logic Salamence from its OU status (...innocent until proven guilty...)?

 

[Rising_Dusk]

besides, in Ubers, Garchomp ( and most Ubers) would destroy it, making it unusable in the uber tier

That really doesn't matter here. If it's too strong for OU, it must be banned from OU to Uber. It's that simple.

for example, rhyperior could survive an attack and then counter kill with avalanhe

Not a Draco Meteor, especially not if it has to switch-in.

 

[drcossack]

i may be a noob, but i know that any version of salamance can be slayed even if it has set up a couple DD's

for example, rhyperior could survive an attack and then counter kill with avalanhe

besides, in Ubers, Garchomp ( and most Ubers) would destroy it, making it unusable in the uber tier

Mence will almost always have Stealth Rock support, so no, Rhyperior cannot kill it with Avalanche. If Mence gets 2 DD's, there is NOTHING in Ubers (short of Ice Shard, which is VERY rare) that can take it down if it's got a decent chunk of HP. Scarf Shaymin-S, Scarf Mewtwo, Scarf Darkrai? They're all outsped and destroyed by Outrage.

As for the Garchomp argument - you do realize the conditions for that need to be in Garchomp's favor, right? 1: Mence has 1 DD/is locked into Outrage, and 2: The Garchomp needs to have a +Speed Nature and a Choice Scarf. It can't switch in.

Mence in OU is more or less the same - whether he has a DD or not, there are no safe switch-ins. The only way to kill non-DD variants is to hope for a speed tie (Jirachi) or outspeed/revenge it (Scarf Latias.)

 

[Assassin of the Red Sands]

If salamence has a couple of DD's, nothing short of priority is going to stop it.

And I'll say it before someone else does: Performance in Ubers has nothing to do with it, Salamence will get banned if it is deemed too powerful for OU.

okay, i'm sorry, really sorry

it's just that i use a sandstorm team with pokemon with massive D (such as Rhyperior) and therefore couldn't see Salamance as a threat to my particular team.

however, with just being aware of what butterfingers158 said (and reading various arguments), it seems salamance is a threat not to be taken lightly, and "that Perfermance in Ubers has nothing to with it"

therefore, i now view salamance as a serious offensive threat, but can be dealt with if appropriate action is taken quickly, and therefore, should remain in OU

 

[Nida]

Just for lulz, here's RaikouLover's excellent "Stop Using Him! (Dragonite Discussion)" from early last year: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1783477&postcount=1

Of note is his analysis of the Choice Band set at the bottom of his OP:

Set: Choice Band
Dragonite (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 Atk/4 Def/252 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Outrage
- Aqua Tail
- Earthquake / Superpower / Focus Punch
- Fire Punch

This set is listed because it can give stall teams an absolute nightmare.
This set 2HKOs everything in OU. Period.

That last line is familiar: "2HKOs everything in OU". :) Read his deeper analysis of the set for some enlightening information.

I have a feeling that if people really followed RL's advice with Dragonite - especially some of his newer "gimmick" work which incorporates HGSS moves, notable Extremespeed - not only would we see something which would outclass Infernape/Lucario/etc., just like Salamence, but we'd also see something that would make Mence think twice about coming in, especially if it got a Dance under its belt.

Obviously, Dragonite and Salamence are fundamentally different. But imagine a metagame where Mence had to fear a mid- to late-game Dragonite threat. Dragonite was #23 in usage in December, #25 in November. If you've got a spare moment, dig out some of the recent usage data for the smiling dragon. It seems that Dragonite is still being used in a less-than-optimal fashion, mainly as people try to make a bulky Salamence clone.

Here's an idea for the suspect test: how about people start using critters other than Salamence the way they're goddamn supposed to, so that Salamence isn't the only thing doing its job? :P

 

[Tagrineth]

that Dragonite isn't really comparable at all because it carries one fundamental flaw: Choice Band. He Superpowers? Bring in Gengar or Rotom. He Fire Punches? Bring in Heatran or your Bulky Water. Earthquake? Bring in a flyer. Aqua Tail? Again, bulky water (or even Vaporeon!). Now he's forced out lest he become setup bait in and of himself.

 

[MrIndigo]

Also, the collection of moves is the set. Stats are just how well it can be used.

This is both:
a) Nitpicking.
b) Wrong.

The set takes into account everything about the pokemon; the EVs (and therefore the stats) are included. Salamence's Mixed set is not the same as Dragonite's or any other pokemon using it because the damage outputs and speeds and defences are different.

Also, Salamence is prone to some revenge KOs. Scizor is so sky-high in use, and can Bullet Punch Salamence so well that Salamence is very likely to be checked. Also, other pokemon, some of whom see actual use by skilled players, can give Salamence a hard time. What I meant by "probability is irrelvant" is that we need to deal with the top set(s) first and solo, not all at once. If Salamence is put on your team, what is his efficiency, the amount of damage he does compared to the damage he does to the team by taking up a moveslot? Back to probability: It all averages out.

The "But it can be revenge killed" argument has been done to death in this thread, and it doesn't answer the question of whether or not Salamence needs a test.

I don't even know what you're trying to argue in the second half of this section. I know the words, and sentences but I don't understand the thrust of the paragraph.

If salamence DDs, guessing the probability of you not having a counter or check, and you switch to one that can shrug off Salamence's power, or just OHKO, then what good did Salamence do, and didn't probability destroy Salamence?

As has been shown, there isn't a pokemon that can do this effectively. That's what ToF, and zarator have been saying. Also, a coinflip situation works in favour of the offensive party, not the defensive. If the offensive party wins the flip, it wins the whole match. If the defensive party wins the flip, it forces the threat out but doesn't actually achieve anything itself.

Furthermore, the more information each player has gives a greater advantage to the offensive player than the defensive, because it gives them better chance to guess correctly, biasing in their favour.

If probability of Salamence to destroy based on a guess can be put onto the discussion, so can Salamence's controller guessing wrong. Also, Draco Meteor leaves Salamence mostly crippled on the offence for the rest of it's duration in front. Shouldn't the balancing aspects also be considered?

EDIT: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64977 may provide us with a source of evidence. The mods and admins statements may prove quite useful for this discussion.

If Salamence switching in turns the game into a coinflip situation, then it's an unbalancing influence. Of course the balancing aspects are to be considered, but that's not saying "Well, they can guess wrong so we can keep the status quo."

 

[Nida]

that Dragonite isn't really comparable at all because it carries one fundamental flaw: Choice Band. He Superpowers? Bring in Gengar or Rotom. He Fire Punches? Bring in Heatran or your Bulky Water. Earthquake? Bring in a flyer. Aqua Tail? Again, bulky water (or even Vaporeon!). Now he's forced out lest he become setup bait in and of himself.

I'm not comparing the sets. And that set isn't the only viable Dragonite set, either. I'm noting that Salamence would have a much harder time in this metagame if other Pokemon, with Dragonite as a prime example, were being used to their best capacity.

 

[IcyMan28]

I'm not comparing the sets. And that set isn't the only viable Dragonite set, either. I'm noting that Salamence would have a much harder time in this metagame if other Pokemon, with Dragonite as a prime example, were being used to their best capacity.

This is a difficult statement to prove. For one thing, there is no surefire way of knowing whether or not a pokemon is being used to its full capacity. Sure you can often tell, but still. Who's to say that Gyara isn't already used to its full capacity? Lucario? Infernape? And second, even if they were not used to their maximum, and all of a sudden reached the best they could...it could be that Salamence is just naturally better.

 

[Nida]

This is a difficult statement to prove. For one thing, there is no surefire way of knowing whether or not a pokemon is being used to its full capacity. Sure you can often tell, but still. Who's to say that Gyara isn't already used to its full capacity? Lucario? Infernape? And second, even if they were not used to their maximum, and all of a sudden reached the best they could...it could be that Salamence is just naturally better.

Well, it was an aside, not a declarative argument against the suspect test. :P Yes, of course it's subjective. Any teambuilding issue is supposed to hinge on the skill of the builder, which is always a relative and subjective thing. But it's apparent that some Pokemon, mostly the rockstar critters like Salamence (and probably Luke, Gyara, and so on) are more thoroughly investigated than others, and therefore have probably reached the limits of real innovation. On the flipside, there are other, less sexy critters who are receive less attention and have a much longer time to practical completion of their moveset list.

Look at UU: it's mostly full of critters with lower BSTs. It's very volatile, in part because it's a secondary tier, but also because new sets and new roles are being defined for even longstanding members of the tier all the time. Hell, look at how Porygon2 exploded as a defensive check in OU in recent months. It always had that capacity, but it's not a rock star, so it took longer to develop in the public eye.

My relatively minor point was that Salamence, for all its variety, is a relatively shallow creature which has been explored about to its limit. Salamence is about as developed as it can be, barring new input from Gen 5. The metagame which surrounds it, however, is not as optimized as Mence. All other issues held aside, it seems kinda stupid to watch the sand sharks hunting by the shore and declare them the kings of the sea, without ever looking for the whales and kraken in deeper waters. :P

 

[Critical_Hax]

Ice Shard is very uncommon statistically. I think we can all agree that its main role is to revenge kill Salamence. Why is Ice Shard uncommon is Salamence is so broken? Because its not that broken and people don't need Ice Shard to take it down because half the time, it'll be dead in a few turns from residual damage.

So Salamence is almost guaranteed at least 1 kill per game. The same could be said of Scizor, Tyrannitar and other pursuiters. If you get them in properly and predict correctly, your opponent loses something. Even other pokemon can just kill something because they use a random move on the switch, such as Infernape.

Intimidate is a good ability, no doubt. Salamence isn't the only effective user. Gyarados has similar defensive stats, argueably better defensive typing and the ability to run defensive sets as well. So what if Gyara can't go mixed. Going mixed is mainly for wallbreaking and taunt does it for gyara, while DM and Fire attacks do it for Mence. Scarfers with the same Rock moves will kill both Gyara and Mence, while Scarfers with Electric moves other than Rotom are uncommon compared to those packing Dragon/Ice Moves. Gyarados can't even be picked of easily by bullet punch. We do not consider Gyarados Broken, so why Mence.

The whole counter mentality is stupid. If I really wanted, I could slap the appropriate HP on quite a few pokemon with decent special attack and run a lure set to kill my counter.

Another thing is that while more often than not, you'll be forced to revenge kill Salamence because it got that 1 kill, fact is Offensive Salamence isn't the kind of pokemon that you can easily switch into an opponent unless its completely helpless against it. I for one, can't think of a single pokemon that cannot within reason, run 1 move to kill mence either on the switch or will neuter it if the Mence user predicts a switch and uses the wrong move. HP Fire Celebi can T-Wave Mence, Bliss can T-Wave, Hippo can run Ice Fang to kill Mence's staying power etc.

Salamence is top tier OU. Of course most of the possible sets to run with it have been discovered. It says somewhere on the analysis that Mence is fairly unpredictable. Not true. You can guess from the stage of the game when Mence first appears (i.e. Early/Mid/Late), its partners and usage statistics what your most likely dealing with.

Next, Salamence wouldn't be so threatening if people just didn't play so stupidly half the time. Seriously, if you got swept by Salamence, it may be beacause you were reckless. If I see a Salamence, i shouldn't just switch in my Swampert just in case it eats a Draco Meteor or LO Outrage to the face. Salamence just switched in on your Breloom without a sub and you're afraid it will DD and sweep your team. Just Focus Punch it and settle for some damage instead trying to absorb an attack. If its DD Mence and it DDed, congratulations, it now doesn't have enough HP to sweep your team. If it wasn't, all you lost was your Breloom. You may say "But I needed that Breloom to win!" Well, assuming a +1 DD Mence would sweep your team anyway, at least you have hax to rely on instead just being killed off.

Yes, Salamence can do all these wonderful things, like be a wall breaker, set up and sweep you, be surprisingly tanky, wish support, whatever, but it can't do all of them at once. Once again, paraphrasing the analysis, Mence is a lot easier to handle once you know what you're dealing with. If you're desperate to kill Salamence, keep a Steel Handy and force it to Outrage and/or waste its DM. Pokemon that do this aren't hard to come by. Gyarados, Flygon, even other Salamence.

Bottom line, Mence is not broken, its just people don't know how to play around it.

 

[IcyMan28]

Ice Shard is very uncommon statistically. I think we can all agree that its main role is to revenge kill Salamence. Why is Ice Shard uncommon is Salamence is so broken? Because its not that broken and people don't need Ice Shard to take it down because half the time, it'll be dead in a few turns from residual damage.

Or maybe it's because the large majority of Ice Shard users are not viable in OU outside of niche roles. Mamoswine is the only one that can even claim to have some significance, as Weavile is crippled by Stealth Rock, weak base power STAB moves, frail defenses, and is much more easy to play around. Donphan's Ice Shard is unSTAB, and other Sharders like Glaceon and Lapras don't make the cut for OU. I may have missed a few, but the same will generally apply to them.

So Salamence is almost guaranteed at least 1 kill per game. The same could be said of Scizor, Tyrannitar and other pursuiters. If you get them in properly and predict correctly, your opponent loses something. Even other pokemon can just kill something because they use a random move on the switch, such as Infernape.

This is untrue because Scizor and Tyranitar's Pursuit will only be KOing particular types as they switch out. Jirachi or Vaporeon certainly won't be KOd by Pursuit unless they are severely weakened, so this really only applies to the likes of Starmie and Latias. Salamence, on the other hand, has its perfect coverage trio of moves in addition to high offensive stats that allow it to inflict crippling damage regardless.

Intimidate is a good ability, no doubt. Salamence isn't the only effective user. Gyarados has similar defensive stats, argueably better defensive typing and the ability to run defensive sets as well. So what if Gyara can't go mixed. Going mixed is mainly for wallbreaking and taunt does it for gyara, while DM and Fire attacks do it for Mence. Scarfers with the same Rock moves will kill both Gyara and Mence, while Scarfers with Electric moves other than Rotom are uncommon compared to those packing Dragon/Ice Moves. Gyarados can't even be picked of easily by bullet punch. We do not consider Gyarados Broken, so why Mence.

Gyara's ability to run defensive sets is limited to ResTalk essentially, a much less efficient method than Roost or Wish, we will all agree. And the thing is that regardless of its set, Gyara is still countered by several pokemon, those being defensive Rotom-A, HP Electric Vaporeon, and Celebi (bar Bounce). And while a ScarfGon is a reliable revenger for Gyara, it only has a 50% chance against DDMence - the speed makes a difference. To answer your last question, the answer is because they are not the same pokemon.

The whole counter mentality is stupid. If I really wanted, I could slap the appropriate HP on quite a few pokemon with decent special attack and run a lure set to kill my counter.

Another thing is that while more often than not, you'll be forced to revenge kill Salamence because it got that 1 kill, fact is Offensive Salamence isn't the kind of pokemon that you can easily switch into an opponent unless its completely helpless against it. I for one, can't think of a single pokemon that cannot within reason, run 1 move to kill mence either on the switch or will neuter it if the Mence user predicts a switch and uses the wrong move. HP Fire Celebi can T-Wave Mence, Bliss can T-Wave, Hippo can run Ice Fang to kill Mence's staying power etc.

No one here is even arguing counter mentality anymore. We have all generally accepted that checks are what matter this Gen, and there are very few reliable ones to Mence. As far as your other point, you've reduced dealing with Mence to merely anticipating a switch and attempting to cripple. If Tyranitar is out against your TinkerBell Celebi, are you going to risk a Crunch and Thunder Wave, or will you go for the kill and Leaf Storm? Either situation has its pros and cons, and the former choice could be quite costly if they don't switch in Mence like you planned. Ice Fang on Hippo is really only for Mence, anyway.

Salamence is top tier OU. Of course most of the possible sets to run with it have been discovered. It says somewhere on the analysis that Mence is fairly unpredictable. Not true. You can guess from the stage of the game when Mence first appears (i.e. Early/Mid/Late), its partners and usage statistics what your most likely dealing with.

Somewhat true. Assuming the two most common sets (MixMence and DDMence), both can have the same partners and yet be different sets. For example, CBTar would definitely appreciate MixMence crashing through bulky waters and grounds, but DDMence can at the same time benefit from a powerful Pursuit used to remove ScarfLatias or Starmie from the match. Same partners, different strategy. So this is not fully applicable.

Next, Salamence wouldn't be so threatening if people just didn't play so stupidly half the time. Seriously, if you got swept by Salamence, it may be beacause you were reckless. If I see a Salamence, i shouldn't just switch in my Swampert just in case it eats a Draco Meteor or LO Outrage to the face. Salamence just switched in on your Breloom without a sub and you're afraid it will DD and sweep your team. Just Focus Punch it and settle for some damage instead trying to absorb an attack. If its DD Mence and it DDed, congratulations, it now doesn't have enough HP to sweep your team. If it wasn't, all you lost was your Breloom. You may say "But I needed that Breloom to win!" Well, assuming a +1 DD Mence would sweep your team anyway, at least you have hax to rely on instead just being killed off.

So Mence is threatening because people play stupidly? Okay. So what do you do when that DDMence turns out to be of the bulky variety, and a switch to Swampert could have actually been the right choice? And in your scenario, you are still losing a pokemon. DDMence boosted up, killed your Breloom with Fire Blast, and is free to attack another round. If not, MixMence removed your Breloom and is still free to attack another round. You were still forced to sacrifice your pokemon, so Mence has done its job in the end.

Yes, Salamence can do all these wonderful things, like be a wall breaker, set up and sweep you, be surprisingly tanky, wish support, whatever, but it can't do all of them at once. Once again, paraphrasing the analysis, Mence is a lot easier to handle once you know what you're dealing with. If you're desperate to kill Salamence, keep a Steel Handy and force it to Outrage and/or waste its DM. Pokemon that do this aren't hard to come by. Gyarados, Flygon, even other Salamence.

The thing is...it can do all of these things equally as well, which few other pokemon can boast. Sure Gengar can run a LO set and a SubPunch set, but will the latter be sweeping as well as the former? And, if you can use the rest of your team to lure an Outrage, Mence player can lure out your steels to trap and kill them with Magnezone. And then, it could always run Dragon Claw to foil that strategy and possibly even get a second boost.

Bottom line, Mence is not broken, its just people don't know how to play around it.

Because they can't do so without resorting to a stringent list of reliable checks, the large majority of which are Pursuit bait.

 

[Nida]

So Mence is threatening because people play stupidly? Okay. So what do you do when that DDMence turns out to be of the bulky variety, and a switch to Swampert could have actually been the right choice? And in your scenario, you are still losing a pokemon. DDMence boosted up, killed your Breloom with Fire Blast, and is free to attack another round. If not, MixMence removed your Breloom and is still free to attack another round. You were still forced to sacrifice your pokemon, so Mence has done its job in the end.

The original quote had an interesting line: "Salamence just switched in on your Breloom without a sub and you're afraid it will DD and sweep your team." The assumption was that Mence was able to pop in for free. No, it either switched in as Breloom was subbing, or it took an attack, or it let Breloom get in a Swords Dance. Intimidate is obviously at work; it's also entirely possible (especially if the Mence player is executing a good strategy and sets this up intentionally) that Mence is coming in on Seed Bomb or Mach Punch or whatever else Breloom might be carrying that Mence resists. Seed Bomb is obviously lol damage, but if Mence mispredicts, even a -1 Stone Edge from Adamant max attack Breloom knocks out 40-47% of its health, Stealth Rock notwithstanding.

If what you want to imply is that Mence's job was to take out that one Breloom, at the easily possible cost of Mence's ability to continue to serve the team, then yes, Mence did its job. But consider this: any decent player who's running that Breloom will be thinking about whether it's mid-late game, how many unrevealed Pokemon are on the opponent's team, and whether the opponent's team synergizes with some hidden force that could threaten her Breloom. She's going to be thinking of several possibilities, and Mence is going to be one of the most obvious. So even as she's clicking on Breloom, she's deciding whether to play risky and Focus Punch on a predicted switch, or whether to blow her Spore on something she knows or save it for the hidden threat, or whether Stone Edge is a good all-around coverage move for safety's sake. Mence does not come into a vacuum.

Because of the dangers of letting Breloom sub up or stat up or toss out SE damage, Mence's player may well not switch into Breloom unless it's late game. Mence is more likely to switch into a wall - after all, it is a wallbreaker, and it appreciates free turns generated by threatening other Pokemon away. So in reality, one of the following scenarios is more likely to have happened:

• It was a double switch (not likely in general, but a good Mence player might well set up a pivot to bring Mence in on Breloom without letting Breloom have a turn to act, especially if Breloom is a threat to the rest of the team);
• Breloom switched into Mence, either after another critter died or on a prediction - in either case, Mence's set is probably already known, and now Intimidate is not at play.

So unless Mence's player is able to set up crucial pivots to prevent itself from being crippled or wiped out, or unless that player is willing to take bogus-ass gambles on what move will be used, Mence is basically sacrificing itself to take out a single Pokemon. Which is why Mence is better off sticking to walls. Because that's what it is - a wallbreaker.

 

[Chillarmy]

The question is "Does one set or more make it Uber?"

No, the fact that Salamence can run 10 sets - all with a different purpose and/or checks - can make it Uber. When Salamence switches in, you have to predict (which is an unreliable move to make)

...just putting that out there.

 

[J-man]

No, the fact that Salamence can run 10 sets - all with a different purpose and/or checks - can make it Uber. When Salamence switches in, you have to predict (which is an unreliable move to make)

...just putting that out there.

However, even though there have been 10 viable movesets discovered, only 3 of them are actually used commonly... the rest are so rare, you can pretty much get by without having to predict.

 

[IcyMan28]

The original quote had an interesting line: "Salamence just switched in on your Breloom without a sub and you're afraid it will DD and sweep your team." The assumption was that Mence was able to pop in for free. No, it either switched in as Breloom was subbing, or it took an attack, or it let Breloom get in a Swords Dance. Intimidate is obviously at work; it's also entirely possible (especially if the Mence player is executing a good strategy and sets this up intentionally) that Mence is coming in on Seed Bomb or Mach Punch or whatever else Breloom might be carrying that Mence resists. Seed Bomb is obviously lol damage, but if Mence mispredicts, even a -1 Stone Edge from Adamant max attack Breloom knocks out 40-47% of its health, Stealth Rock notwithstanding.

Breloom is here predicting perfectly that Mence will switch in, when in reality Mence has the overwhelming advantage because it resists both of its stabs, and it is likely that something else has already taken a Spore since Mence is usually just too valuable to sacrifice to sweep. Furthermore, bulkyDDMence is actually quite capable of countering Loom, as Roost keeps it healthy enough until it is able to sweep.

Your point about Mence switching into a wall is another aspect that makes this situation less valid, at least in the case of offensive Mence. However, the Mence player will no doubt be thinking about those same factors that the Breloom player is, and so may consider it worth it to Fire Blast Breloom or the switchin, knowing that a subsequent Draco Meteor or Earthquake can be crippling to the opponent despite the loss of Salamence.

 

[Chillarmy]

you can pretty much get by without having to predict.

MixMence and DDMence alone force you into a corner since it's either "lose a team player" or "switch to a check and hope it's the right one" when Salamence switches in. Unless you want to solely rely on prediction and luck to keep Mence at bay, you're going to need at least two checks (two slots) to keep its most devastating sets at bay.

Also, unlike Lucario, who may require a sacrifice to effectively check, Salamence is less prone to being revenge killed by Pokemon that aren't shit/easily crippled in OU. In fact, most of Mence's "checks" are Pursuit bait lol

 

[J-man]

MixMence and DDMence alone force you into a corner since it's either "lose a team player" or "switch to a check and hope it's the right one" when Salamence switches in. Unless you want to solely rely on prediction and luck to keep Mence at bay, you're going to need at least two checks (two slots) to keep its most devastating sets at bay.

Also, unlike Lucario, who may require a sacrifice to effectively check, Salamence is less prone to being revenge killed by Pokemon that aren't shit/easily crippled in OU. In fact, most of Mence's "checks" are Pursuit bait lol

*sigh* i didn't mean that... I meant you could get by without having to predict the other sets you aptly mentioned. No one uses Specs Mence... I rarely find my self versing a bulky mence because Mence was meant to be bulky.
But you speak the truth that you have to predict whether the mence in question is DDmence or Mixmence.

No... Mixmence is easily revenged by Scizor, who is not Pursuit bait. You might be referring to Latias? If Latias kills Mixmence, then it has done its job. It killed Salamence and there is no threat of a salamence sweep. We are only on the discussion of Mence, so don't bring up any pokemon...

Man i phail at phrasing...

 

[Stylish Interval]

Unless you want to solely rely on prediction and luck to keep Mence at bay, you're going to need at least two checks (two slots) to keep its most devastating sets at bay.

Heh, I thought I'd be able to stay out of this thread and maybe it would die, but sadly some people can't help but post here.

According to ToF, there was an agenda for testing Pokemon to see if they were Uber. If Salamence required at least two checks and took up two slots of a team to handle, don't you think it would have been on that list? Taking up 1/3 of the teams slots, to an extent 1/2 due to having to put on a lead, seems way over centralizing to me. I think you might need to rethink that. Maybe you meant something different like "You have to have at least two different plans to tackle Salamence and keep it at bay" or something. I don't know. But saying that it takes at least (in italics) two checks [two slots] to keep it's most devastating sets at bay is absolute bullshit, and it doesn't happen at all or there wouldn't be a discussion on whether or not Salamence needs to be tested - it would just be tested.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

Do people really switch anything on Breloom without expecting a Substitute?

Breloom switched into Mence, either after another critter died or on a prediction - in either case, Mence's set is probably already known, and now Intimidate is not at play.

If Breloom's coming in after Mence killed something, then... wait, why would Breloom switch in on a Salamence? After a DD and with Life Orb, the Subseeder version (248/252/0, Impish nature) dies to Outrage, and any other version dies either to Life Orb or a DD. Actually, even a +1 Dragon Claw with no Life Orb might kill off SporePuncher Breloom... He really has no place switching in on Mence unless you really want to force it to Outrage (and even then, "Dragon Claw lol"). Unless, of course, I'm missing something.

 

[Chillarmy]

According to ToF, there was an agenda for testing Pokemon to see if they were Uber. If Salamence required at least two checks and took up two slots of a team to handle, don't you think it would have been on that list?

Don't you think that Garchomp and Manaphy would've been banned in early D/P if they're considered Uber now?

I think you might need to rethink that. Maybe you meant something different like "You have to have at least two different plans to tackle Salamence and keep it at bay" or something. I don't know.

The other method is revenge killing, which, as I've already mentioned, isn't as effective on Salamence due to its 448 Speed after a single boost and the fact the most of the Choice Scarfers that can revenge Salamence can be taken out without much effort.

But saying that it takes at least (in italics) two checks [two slots] to keep it's most devastating sets at bay is absolute bullshit

I'm not saying that it's a requirement to check Salamence, but rather much, it's the only way that Salamence can be checked as the other legitimate sweepers in OU are. Salamence can easily switch into most of OU thanks to it resisting some of the most common offensive types in OU, being immune to the most used move in OU and crippling Physical attackers with Intimidate. From there, you're forced into a "battle of wits" the opposition. This is the worst possible situation that you will ever encounter in this game, because just about anything can happen. You might switch your Kingdra out to Skarmory, fearing Draco Meteor, and end up with a Fire Blast to the face - similarly, you could switch your Scizor into a Latias in order to "absorb" Trick, but instead you get smacked around by HP Fire. You can't avoid having to predict, nor can you avoid making a misprediction when trying to kill Salamence, which is why Salamence can be labeled as a suspect.

No... Mixmence is easily revenged by Scizor, who is not Pursuit bait. You might be referring to Latias? If Latias kills Mixmence, then it has done its job. It killed Salamence and there is no threat of a salamence sweep. We are only on the discussion of Mence, so don't bring up any pokemon...

Magnezone is one of Salamence's, if not the best, partner due to its typing and ability. Why is it ruled out? Garchomp nor Skymin weren't labeled as Uber because they were stand-alone powerhouses, so I don't see why Salamence can't have a single partner.