Rain Discussion Thread

[Cloud 8]

Rain Discussion
With so many dominating threats in the RU environment it is very easy to forget about such an amazing force like Rain. In a practically weatherless tier such as RU there is very little competition for Rain Dance. RU is also home to many Rain sweepers such as Ludicolo, Kabutops, Omastar, etc. Along with great rain sweepers there are also great Rain Dance users such as Uxie and Electrode. Overall, rain is very underrated threat that could take the metagame by storm if abused properly.​

Rain Dance Users:​

The most vital part of any rain team: Rain Dance users are the only way to set up rain in RU and many effective Rain Dance users from 4th gen find a nice niche in the RU metagame as such. Rain sweepers can either be very bulky in order to set up rain many times in a match or can quickly set up rain as a suicide lead to get some early game momentum. Either way, a couple rain dance users are necessary for a succesful rain team.

Uxie @ Leftovers / Damp Rock
Trait: Levitate
Nature: Bold
EV's: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Moves:
-Rain Dance
-Stealth Rock
-U-Turn
-Psychic​

Despite the prevalence of bug-types in the tier, Uxie retains the position of an incredibly bulky Pokemon that can utilize multiple support moves; including Rain Dance. Uxie can easily set up Stealth Rock, use Rain Dance and then can U-turn out into a rain sweeper. Psychic stops Uxie from being complete Taunt-bait and can do some decent damage. It's physical bulk along with its typing provides nice synergy with rain sweepers like Omastar and Kabutops who can set up on dark and bug that Uxie attracts while Uxie can use ground and fighting moves to set up on. With its nice base speed, Uxie can also run Speed EVs to quickly set up rain before being hit and then either U-turn to an appropriate counter or utilize Memento in order to set up with a powerful sweeper. ​

Electrode @ Damp Rock / Focus Sash
Trait: Soundproof
Nature: Naive
EV's: 252 Atk / 100 Sp. Atk / 156 Spe
Moves:
-Rain Dance
-Thunder
-Explosion
-Taunt​

Electrode was known as one of the most effective Suicide Rain Dance leads and still holds that position despite a nerf to Explosion with its blistering base 140 speed. Team Preview can extremely hamper Electrode's suicide lead ability but it is still almost guaranteed to get up a Rain Dance especially with a Focus Sash to protect against priority. While Focus Sash may seem tempting to use against common priority move users like Entei, Damp Rock is also extremely effective as the main problem of rain teams in RU is trying to maintain the downpour. Electrode also serves a decent check to Yanmega (a large nuisance for rain teams) with it's super-effective Thunder and ability, Soundproof. Thanks to Electrode's naturally great speed, it doesn't have to invest fully to outspeed common threats so it can invest more in attack and special attack to possibly nab a KO with Thunder or Explosion.​

Swift Swim Abusers:​

When thinking of an offensive Rain Dance team Swift Swimmers are the first thing that come to mind. In the 5-8 turns rain is up; Swift Swimmers can use there great offensive coverage, boost to their speed and water type moves as well as powerful boosting moves to decimate teams. Swift Swimmers are the whole reason is arguably broken in the tier and are a game changing force.

Omastar @ Life Orb
Trait: Swift Swim
Nature: Modest
EV's: 196 HP / 252 Sp. Atk / 60 Spe
Moves:
-Shell Smash
-Surf/ Hydro Pump
-Ice Beam
-HP Grass

(Copied from UU analysis)

Omastar has always been a decent Rain Dance abuser with its high Special Attack stat, but has also been overlooked because of its poor Speed and many weaknesses, courtesy of its secondary Rock typing. For those reasons, Omastar was more often used to set up hazards, as it is one of the few Pokemon with access to all three of Stealth Rock, Spikes, and Toxic Spikes. However, BW has blessed Omastar with one of the best setup moves in the entire game — Shell Smash. Sharply raising Speed, Special Attack, and Attack, Shell Smash is limited to a few select users, and Omastar is among one of the best because of its high Special Attack stat. Shell Smash also patches up any Speed issues that Omastar previously had; this shellfish becomes one of the most threatening sweepers around.

Ludicolo @ Life Orb
Trait: Swift Swim
Nature: Modest
EV's: 4 HP/ 252 Sp. Atk/ 252 Spe
Moves:
-Surf/ Hydro Pump
-Giga Drain
-Ice Beam
-Rain Dance / Focus Blast​

Ludicolo's great coverage and STAB combination allow him to plow through many counters to rain teams; greatly assisting fellow Swift Swimmers. He can come in on things like Gastrodon that wall Omastar and Gorebyss without HP Grass and force it out so he can blast the opponent with powerful moves or even set up Rain Dance himself. the biggest advantage with using Ludicolo is not just his power but his all-around bulk that allows him to take priority moves, set up his own Rain Dance or even utilize an effective Sub-seeding set.

Kabutops @ Life Orb
Trait: Swift Swim
Nature: Adamant/ Jolly
EV's: 4 HP/ 252 Atk/ 252 Spe
Moves:
-Swords Dance
-Waterfall
-Stone Edge
-Superpower/ Aqua Jet​

(Slightly altered from UU analysis)

Kabutops returns as a solid Pokemon, with great attack and defense, allowing it to set up on a lot of physical sweepers like Entei. Access to Swords Dance only increases its value, turning it into a fearsome sweeper with a dangerous Rock- and Water-type dual-STAB that gives it resistances to popular typings like Bug and Fire. Its Rock / Water typing is a mixed blessing: 4x resisting Fire-type moves, as well as 2x resistance to Normal and Flying, makes it a great check to Entei and Scyther. However, this typing leaves it weak to ever common types such as Ground- and Fighting-, and 4x weak to Grass-type moves. Its below par Special Defense doesn't help it either. Negatives aside, Kabutops makes a great choice if one is looking for an amazing Rain Dance sweeper.

Gorebyss @ Life Orb
Trait: Swift Swim
Nature: Modest/ Timid
EV's: 4 HP/ 252 Sp Atk/ 252 Spe
Moves:
-Surf
-Ice Beam
- HP Grass/ Baton Pass
- Shell Smash​

(Copied from UU analysis.)​

In the past, Gorebyss was almost solely used as a rain sweeper or a Baton Pass user, and she received stiff competition for both roles. Luckily, the fifth generation gave her Shell Smash, which casts Gorebyss into the limelight as one of the most notable Pokemon in RU. Shell Smash is a great blessing for offensive Pokemon, as it doubles their Attack, Special Attack, and Speed stats, and Gorebyss is one of only three Pokemon that can pass on the boost. Gorebyss may even use the move to sweep herself, and unlike the past generation, she does not need rain support in order to do so (although it does help greatly). However, Shell Smash's drop in Defense and Special Defense often forces her to carry White Herb in place of another item. This means that Gorebyss will usually get only one chance of passing on Shell Smash without the drops, and clever opponents will stop at nothing to exploit this fact. In addition, Gorebyss's HP and Special Defense stats are abysmal, so she can be knocked out easily even without Shell Smash's drops. Nevertheless, the prospect of having a sweeper with +2 in both offensive stats and Speed is appealing to many players, and this high risk, high reward strategy will not die off anytime soon.​

Rain Dance Abusers:​

Rain Dance abuse isn't limited to Swift Swimmers, there are many Pokemon who find the downpour beneficial. Rain has many helpful side effects like weakening fire moves, boosting the power of water moves or even boosting the accuracy of powerful moves. Either way, dismissing Abusers of rain as inferior to Swift Swimmers could prove to be a fatal mistake.

Blastoise @ Leftovers
Trait: Rain Dish
Nature: Bold
EV's: 252 HP/ 252 Def/ 4 Sp. Def
Moves:
-Scald
-Rapid Spin
- Dragon Tail/ Ice Beam
- Toxic/ Foresight​

As a well rounded bulky water with valuable support moves like Rapid Spin, Blastoise should be a top notch support Pokemon but it was always held back by lack of reliable recovery and offensive presence. Rain alleviates this problem to an extent, as water moves grab a 50% boost in Rain and; thanks to his Dream World ability and Leftovers, Blastoise recovers 18% of his health every turn. Unfortunatey, Blastoise has terrible synergy with most Rain sweepers and can often waste valuable turns of rain.

Ferroseed@ Eviolite
Trait: Iron Barbs
nature: Sassy
evs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
IVs: 0 Spe
Moves:
-Stealth Rock/ Spikes
-Leech Seed
-Thunder Wave/ Protect
- Gyro Ball​

Just like his big brother in OU, Ferroseed loves the rain in order to deal with his nasty 4x weakness to fire. Without a 4x super effective Flare Blitz from an Entei or a Fire Blast from a Magmortar it becomes very hard to take out Ferroseed thanks to Eviolite and Leech Seed. Ferroseed can also set up the entry hazards that rain sweepers love so much as well as having nice synergy with water types.​

Sharpedo @ Life Orb
Ability: Speed Boost
Nature: Naive
EV'S: 252 Spe / 128 Sp. Atk / 128 Atk
Moves:
-Hydro Pump
-Crunch
-Protect
-Ice Beam​

The power boost that rain provides to Hydro Pump is exactly what Sharpedo needs. Thanks to Speed Boost, Sharpedo doesn't have a problem outspeeding fast threats like Swellow with a few Protects under his belt; his new problem is breaking through bulky walls like Munchlax and Clefable. Rain alleviates this problem to an extent and can give Sharpedo the role of a wallbreaker. Using his wallbreaking abilities, Sharpedo can blast holes through a team allowing a Rain Dance sweeper to clean.​

Threats to Rain Teams:​

Just like all strategies, there are always checks and counters that need to be handled in order for a rain team to be succesful. Counters and checks can do anything from coming in and walling or outspeeding and killing common rain sweepers. Effective checks to rain are rare; further attributing to rain being broken.

Ferroseed@ Eviolite
Trait: Iron Barbs
nature: Sassy
EV's: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
IVs: 0 Spe
Moves:
-Stealth Rock/ Spikes
-Leech Seed
-Thunder Wave/ Protect
- Gyro Ball​

Just as Ferroseed loves to be on a rain team; he also loves to face them. Fire moves are very rare on rain teams and there are very few rain abusers that utilize fighting moves well. Ferroseeds typing also allows it to wall most rain sweepers like Omastar, Gorebyss and Sharpedo and stall out the turns of rain. He can even set up the hazards that rain teams are so susceptible to.

Gastrodon @ Leftovers
Trait: Storm Drain
Nature: Calm
EV's: 252 HP/ 124 Def/ 76 Sp. Atk/ 56 Sp. Def
Moves:
-Toxic
-Recover
-Earth Power
- HP Grass​

Thanks to Gastrodon's wonderful ability and stellar special defense, he can easily wall majority of special Rain Dance sweepers in the tier. He can switch in on a predicted Surf to get a Special Attack boost and immediately scare you off with the threat of a +1 Hidden Power Grass or a crippling Toxic. With the help of Recover, Gastrodon can switch in many times in the match even with entry hazards in place and force you to lose momentum and Rain Dance turns.​

Snover @ Eviolite
Trait: Snow Warning
Nature: Calm
EV's: 248 HP/ 172 Sp. Def/ 88 Def
Moves:
-Leech Seed
-Protect
-Substitute
-Giga Drain​

Snover is the only perma-weather inducer in the tier meaning whenever Snover enters the field, rain stops. This forces your Rain Dance users to come in and lose HP and valuable momentum as they set up rain again. Thanks to Snovers's typing and bulk with Eviolite, he can Leech Seed and stall out many rain sweepers that rely on Surf, Ice Beam and Hidden Power Grass/ Electric to do damage. Fortunately, there should be many rain inducers in a team and with only one Snover, hail is very hard to maintain especially factoring in his Stealth Rock weakness.

Golduck@ Choice Scarf
Trait: Cloud Nine
Nature: Modest/ Timid
EV's: 4 HP/ 252 Sp. Atk/ 252 Spe
Moves:
-Surf/ Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Focus Blast
- HP Grass​

With Clound Nine and a Choice Scarf, Golduck can serve as a very effective check to popular rain sweepers as well as an effective revenge killer in general. Golduck can switch in on a predicted Surf; negating the boost to water type moves and Swift Swim or come in after an opponents Pokemon has been killed and threaten your Rain sweepers with a super-effective Hidden Power Grass or Focus Blast. ​

As you can see this is gonna be a really long post so it might take me a while to write. Dont let that stop discusion though :)

 

[waterwarrior]

Uuuuuugh! I personally hate Rain with a passion. The only thing able to wall BOTH Ludicolo and Kabutops in RU is Ferroseed, and even then it can't wall them forever. Once your Ferroseed is gone, Rain will walk over anything. And I mean EVERYTHING.

 

[marilli]

Uuuuuugh! I personally hate Rain with a passion. The only thing able to wall BOTH Ludicolo and Kabutops in RU is Ferroseed, and even then it can't wall them forever. Once your Ferroseed is gone, Rain will walk over anything. And I mean EVERYTHING.

You don't need to have one thing walling 'rain' in general. This isn't OU, where Gastro walls anything 'rain' related. You can have a general special wall walling Ludicolo, with Quagsire or Gastrodon (who will leave soon) walling Kabutops, if you want to go down that defensive route. Cresselia in general will take any hit, and thunder wave to neutralize the threat.

EDIT: I'd add Sharpedo in the Rain Abusers list. It's really strong in rain, and after the speed boosts kick in, you don't exactly need rain anymore.

 

[Foxy Grandpa]

Uuuuuugh! I personally hate Rain with a passion. The only thing able to wall BOTH Ludicolo and Kabutops in RU is Ferroseed, and even then it can't wall them forever. Once your Ferroseed is gone, Rain will walk over anything. And I mean EVERYTHING.

Kabutops gets Superpower, Ludicolo gets Focus Miss.

 

[Ningildo]

Also, please tell me HOW Ferroseed will tank a +2 Ice Beam from Omastar TWICE in order to strike back with Twave?
There's two images of Omastar in the OP for Swift Swim abusers, btw.

 

[waterwarrior]

Cresselia in general will take any hit, and thunder wave to neutralize the threat.

Modest LO Ludicolo Hydro Pump does 44.14-52.03% to max/ max Calm Cress in Rain. Sure, it can come in and take 2 hits, but it will be at ridiculously little health, so if you're not running Moonlight... you're dead. And that's not even with Rocks. With Rocks, Hydro Pump does 56.5-64.4% to the same Cress, which will 2HKO the majority of the time.

 

[marilli]

You could also consider Rotom-C. Good Electric counter / Grass counter rolled into one. You abuse that Thunder, and Volt Switch is always handy to wear down special walls if you're running a special rain sweeper. I mean, I feel that Cressy's bulk + threat of SB Yanmega sweep when rain is down = rain isn't broken as of now. But according to the general consensus those two will 'probably' go (and maybe Honchie as well)... and that leaves rain much stronger than it is now, and will probably be the strongest centralizing force, especially if those three leave to that BL3 tier, and Venomoth & co leave thanks to usage.

If somewhere down the road rain appears broken, I think how we resolve this issue might be a 'lesson' for OU. I'm pretty sure that Aldaron's Proposal is a pure 'patch' as of now--can I really not use Swift Swim Luvdisc with Drizzle? Depending on how we ban the move Rain Dance, Damp Rock (I think there was a damp rock vote on DP UU), or the broken abusers themselves--they've passed down this Kabu / Ludi bs all the way down to RU, and someone's gotta resolve it, right?

Not saying that rain is broken at all, just a musing.

@waterwarrior: of course Cressy can't switch in--very few things can. I'm talking about a 1 vs 1 situation, which Cressy will win vs a single rain abuser without a doubt especially if your Ludicolo is running Surf instead. Generally rain setters can't tickle Cressy, so if you just get your defensive cressy out and sit your ass, the rain team will be forced to switch / u-turn / volt switch into a rain abuser. You'll heavily damage it, but hey, you're down a swift swimmer as well.

 

[waterwarrior]

In OU, Sandstorm and Sun are everywhere, and once Ninetales or Ttar comes in, you can kiss your Kabutops/Ludi/etc. sweep goodbye. Not a good example.

And a SB Yanmega sweep when Rain is down? Thus assuming that Yanmega will survive the Rain onslaught... And even then, the opponent's team isn't Uxie/ Kabutops/ Ludicolo/ nothing/ nothing/ nothing. Someone's gonne be able to take the Yanmega.

 

[marilli]

In OU, Sandstorm and Sun are everywhere, and once Ninetales or Ttar comes in, you can kiss your Kabutops/Ludi/etc. sweep goodbye. Not a good example.

Wait, so Kabu/Ludi aren't broken in OU. Therefore, Aldaron's Proposal is unnecessary / not good enough (hint hint, that is my point)... maybe you should get voting rights and vote to re-test it! My point wasn't about how they were broken in OU as well, but that a complex ban like Aldaron's proposal probably can't get anywhere / a shitty way to handle a case like this. If Kabu isn't broken, why ban it? Is Kingdra the only 'broken' swift swimmer? Then why ban a whole crew of them? If we ask this question to most smogonites, the answer will differ.

Well, this ain't the OU suspect thread. No longer talking about that anymore. If you want to talk more about that, send me a PM.

And a SB Yanmega sweep when Rain is down? Thus assuming that Yanmega will survive the Rain onslaught... And even then, the opponent's team isn't Uxie/ Kabutops/ Ludicolo/ nothing/ nothing/ nothing. Someone's gonne be able to take the Yanmega.

Well duh, of course I carry a Yanmega counter on my rain team. Generally, though, Yanmega counters carry little to no momentum, so it's hard to fit something like Munchlax on something as hyper offensive as Rain. Ofc, if you're doing it right, then you should keep rocks up due to offensive pressure and never let mega get a chance / ko with boosted Aqua jets before it does anything. But it does limit your teambuilding for sure.

 

[waterwarrior]

Ah. Completely misread the first part about Ludi and Kabu in OU ^^;
Sorry.

 

[Cloud 8]

So, if there are any problems with the analyses please point them out. If you think any thing should be added or removed please share any thoughts. I think I will add Rotom-C once I finish writing up all the current ones. How do you feel about the Ludicolo set? I was debating going Sub seed or Rain Dish but without perma rain you shouldnt be stalling. For the Gorebyss set, basic swift swimmer is cool right? I think Shell Smash is kinda outclassed by Omastar and SmashPass isnt rain specific.

 

[waterwarrior]

No, Rain Dish Ludicolo doesn't work down here. Its either an offensive set or it will just get destroyed. And Subseed is not for Rain. Smash Gorebyss is even deadlier in Rain, keep it.

 

[Foxy Grandpa]

Has anyone else noticed a spike in rain since this thread came up?

 

[Cloud 8]

OK. I figured the bugs would murder Ludicolo. Offensive shell Smash Gorebyss or Smash Pass. I assume SmashPass because without baton Pass its inferior to Omastar. No?

Also Qwilfish is outclassed I assume especially with Ferroseed walling it even more. What about Blastoise? Do you think a Rain Dish set has any merit?

 

[waterwarrior]

Wait... why is Golduck a threat to Rain teams? It only takes away their Swift Swim boosts for the one turn it will last against any offensive Rain poke.

 

[Cloud 8]

Having never faced a Golduck with my Rain team it was purely specualtion but it can Calm Mind up to defend itself against weak Hidden Powers and resisted hits. Its more of a threat than LickiLicki at least

 

[waterwarrior]

Golduck vs.:
Ludicolo: Gives it tons of HP back
Kabutops: Stone Edge. 'Nuff said
Omastar: After a Smash, HP Grass will destroy you
Gorebysss: Same as Omastar.

Might not always get OHKO'd if you're running max/ max, but they will beat Golduck.

 

[Cloud 8]

Well than Lickilicki should come off too? Should Blastoise come off too? Rain Dish recovery can only last so long. Smashpass should be used over offensive shell smash on Gorebyss corect?

 

[Lady Shinki]

it can 1hko kabutops and omastar with no boosts with hp grass. Scarfed golduck can outrun modest omastar at +2 and 1hko it even with rain up because of Cloud Nine, same for Kabutops. It can also outspeed and 2hko gorebyss, although anything it passes to will handily mop it up. Vs. Ludicolo...eh, not so great, though Ice Beam can pick off a weakened one.

Generally, you have to sacrifice to bring him in, but if your main concern is stopping rain HO, then he does an ok job of it.

 

[SJCrew]

OK. I figured the bugs would murder Ludicolo. Offensive shell Smash Gorebyss or Smash Pass. I assume SmashPass because without baton Pass its inferior to Omastar. No?

They both do a fine job, really. Omastar is bulkier, but has six nasty weaknesses to Gorebyss' two. There's no reason to throw an offensive Gorebyss into the mix and ignore its best boosting move.

 

[Cloud 8]

Im done for now. Im not sure if I can get to the write up tommorow but it will be done by Friday at the latest. Please continue discussion. What do you think about Lickilicki as a rain check? Im skeptical but I will leave it up for now.

 

[gali]

Overall, rain is very underrated threat that could take the metagame by storm if abused properly.[/CENTER]

I c wat u did thar.
Anyway, has anyone else considered Accelgor a viable option on rain teams? It can be a decent check to Ferroseed, being able to switch in safely on a TWave and shrug it off with Hydration.

 

[ParaChomp]

Snover? This is a tad off topic but I can't wait to make an RU hail team!

 

[Fire Blast]

You seem to be missing one of the most useful Ran Abusers (at least on my Rain Team)

Politoad's long forgotten brother can definitely use the Rain.

Poliwrath (M) @ Leftovers Trait: Swift Swim
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Belly Drum
- Waterfall
- Brick Break
- Earthquake


When combined with Uxie's Memento, Poliwrath can set up and sweep on a significant amount of pokemon. +6 Waterfall is immensely powerful, doing 91.9% - 108.3% to +Max/Max Cresselia in the rain. Max speed is there so that he can outspeed +1 Yanmega in the rain. This thing can wreck almost everything in the tier. If only Ice Punch was legal with Swift Swim :/

 

[marilli]

On the above set, aren't you better off running Close Combat over Brick Break? You'll switch out after rain ends anyways, and you really shouldn't take any hits while rain is active... or is Close Combat not legal with Swift Swim?

EDIT: huh == I swore it had Close Combat.