[QC READY 0/3] Goodra

[kokoloko]

cute dragon ^__^

[Pros]

<ul>
<li>Good attacking stats, SpA on par with Latias and base 100 Attack to make strong physical moves usable.</li>
<li>Loads of switchin opportunities thanks to that awesome SpD.</li>
<li>Its movepool stretches to the horizon, including Fire Blast, Thunderbolt to hit the relevant Fairy-types, and Sludge Bomb/Wave to hit the more niche ones.</li>
<li>Gooey is a very cool ability that will help make up for Goodra's average Speed.</li>
</ul>

[Cons]

<ul>
<li>Below average Defense and Speed will certainly hurt its usability.</li>
<li>I suppose the Drizzle nerf is bad for it because it gets Hydration??</li>
</ul>

[Set Recommendations]

<p>Goodra @ Choice Specs<br />
Ability: Gooey<br />
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe <br />
Modest Nature (+SpA, -Atk)<br />
- Draco Meteor<br />
- Fire Blast / Flamethrower<br />
- Thunderbolt<br />
- Dragon Pulse / Sleep Talk</p>

<p>strong + bulky + amazing coverage = good specs user, but you can also be less cool and use LO I guess</p>
<p>Draco Meteor is still as spammable as ever, don't let bad players tell you otherwise.</p>
<p>Fire Blast covers Steel-types</p>
<p>Thunderbolt covers Azumarill and Togekiss, the two most relevant Fairy-types</p>
<p>Dragon Pulse in case you can't afford the SpA drop at some point</p>
<p>Sleep Talk because it's always nice to have something to take Sleep</p>

<p>Max HP instead of speed is good to tank shit better, but you miss out on beating a lot of Pokemon in the 60-80 range, such as Breloom + it'll be much harder to take advantage of Gooey.</p>
<p>Focus Blast hits Tyranitar (and Heatran).</p>
<p>So does Earthquake (use it in the 4th slot and LO over Specs)</p>
<p>Sludge Bomb/Wave hit the less prominent Fairy-types, such as Sylveon and Florges, and should be used over Thunderbolt if you're into that.</p>
<p>Assault Vest with max HP makes this thing super fucking tanky, but be warned, it'll hit like a girl.</p>

<p>Other Dragons make good offensive partners, Garchomp especially since it can lay down Stealth Rock and break down defensive cores with Earthquake / Outrage / Fire Blast.
<p>SpD walls are obviously annoying because they wall this thing all day, so use something that can take advatage of them being on the opposing team. Skarmory seems like a good partner, since it sets up all over Blissey/Chansey/Sylveon/Florges.</p>

[Checks and Counters]

<p>Nothing can really safely switch in directly besides specially bulky Steel-types in rain and really bulky special walls<p>

I'm not sure why I put <p> tags all over the place, just pretend they're bullet points for now and I'll take them off later lol.

 

[DTC]

i know you're in wip but some comments for what it's worth!!

any reason why you're investing in speed over hp? goodra isn't very fast, and i feel like it'd get much more mileage out of using hp > speed because 90 / 150 bulk is pretty insane. i suppose gooey could be a reason to use speed, but it should not be something to rely on, especially when goodra isn't even gonna be fighting many pokemon that make physical contact anyways.

also i feel like an assault vest tank set definitely deserves mentioning. the lack of recovery means it will get worn down fast, but the special attacks it can tank with assault vest is impressive. example: 252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Ice Beam vs. +1 (Assault Vest boost) 252 HP / 0 SpD Goodra: 138-164 (35.93 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO. even though it has no recovery whatsoever, i feel like it will be a set worth using just because it can act as a catch-all answer to pretty much every special threat besides specs latios. defensive, however, has no notable utility moves and no reliable recovery (maybe mention this in cons?), so i wouldn't even bother.

 

[ginganinja]

Yea mention Assualt Vest, as well as MAYBE a Mixed set. Assault Vest is made for it, since Goodra wants to go aggressive anyway, and LO mixed could work ok considering Goodra legit has an amazing movepool.

 

[kokoloko]

Assault Vest mentioned. Not deserving of a whole set because it makes you hit like a schoolgirl and this thing can't afford to do that.

Mixed seems pointless because you have all the wallbreaking power you need with that coverage and Heatran doesn't exist yet so EQ doesn't hit anything.

Still mulling over what Speed to hit, but the more I use this thing the more I convince myself max is the way to go. Then again I've been playing in a metagame that doesn't exist so we'll see!!!

 

[NessOnett]

Assault Vest mentioned. Not deserving of a whole set because it makes you hit like a schoolgirl and this thing can't afford to do that.

And the logic behind this is...what?

It doesn't make you hit like a schoolgirl. It makes you hit like an above average special attacker, while simultaneously being a special wall that puts Blissey to shame AND lets you take advantage of your amazing movepool by not locking you.

Pigeonholing something with a 150 SpD and middling SpA into a suicidal offensive role while disregarding other sets as unfeasible just leads to a very limited understanding and leaves it as a bad Hydreigon.

 

[Tingtitan]

Assault Vest Goodra with 0 Evs investment in Sdef can tank a full blow Draco Meteor from Specs Latios and kill back with its own draco meteor (modest nature on goodra). So I don't think Goodra hits like a schoolgirl with Assault Vest.

 

[Fuzznip]

Yeah, an Assault Vest set with Dragon Tail looks really viable. It's like a hard-hitting bulky phazer that could be a pretty big nuisance honestly.

 

[Bughouse]

Paging DarkSlay to talk about his experience with Assault Vest Goodra.

 

[DarkSlay]

I've been doing some tests with Assault Vest Goodra, and so far it's been really impressive defensively while being a competent attacker. It's not going to sweep any time soon, but the ability to basically wall every Special Attacker bar boosted STAB Super Effective hits is tremendous. I haven't even invested in its Special Defense with EV's or nature and it's taking most hits like a champ. Here's the set I've been using so far:

Goodra @ Assault Vest
Ability: Gooey
EV's: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpA (These could probably use some fine tuning that doesn't take into account specific threats, this is just a testing spread. It's doing well with it, though.)
Nature: Brave (+Atk -Spe)
Moveset:
- Dragon Tail / Dragon Pulse
- Fire Blast
- Earthquake
- Thunderbolt

Fuzznip hit the nail on the head, Dragon Tail gives Goodra a niche that not many other Pokemon can accomplish in that it actually has a way to support the team while wearing Assault Vest. What makes this so potent, however, is not the "wall that can phaze" aspect, but the fact that it can actually do some damage to things it phazes in thanks to its good SpA stat and above average Attack stat. You can opt for Dragon Pulse if the -6 priority gets annoying or if you're looking for more power. If you do make that choice, you'll want to run 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpA with a Quiet nature. Earthquake is there to pretty much one-shot things like Heatran, which gives Goodra a very hard time without it, while Fire Blast is the general coverage move that hits a lot of Pokemon for good damage (Scizor, Celebi, Forretress, Skarmory, Aegislash, etc.). Thunderbolt is a good choice for coverage, hitting bulky Water types and some Flying types that normally give it trouble (like Azumarill and such). Sludge Wave is cool for Fairies, but since you're already running Fire Blast for Grass types and Thunderbolt/Fire Blast hits most higher-used fairies SE anyway (Togekiss, Azumarill, etc), TBolt's the superior choice. It can pretty much OHKO or 2HKO a lot of Pokemon thanks to sheer coverage alone. It's beat by fast physical Dragons, but what Goodra set isn't? Gooey is neat because while it's not tanking boosted, high-powered physical attacks any time soon, it can definitely take a hit or two and mess up an opponent's sweep with that -1 Spe. It's especially potent on Assault Vest Goodra, which is designed to score a lot of 2HKO's thanks to coverage.

It definitely has its shortcomings, don't get me wrong. As a phazer/wall, it really misses recovery. It's more of an offensive bulky pivot than a stall wall, so weather and repeated attacks will eventually wear it down. The good thing is that it can usually survive around 5-6 attacks per game when played right, which is impressive. However, it's definitely a viable set, and it does give teams something that pretty much no other Pokemon can provide for them. I can provide calcs if you'd like for offensive and defensive points, and if you'd also like I can go find some replays. The sheer joy of taking 6% damage from Heatran's Lava Plume or ~28% damage from Starmie's Ice Beam is pretty nice.

EDIT: A lot of the Pokemon listed, like Heatran and Celebi, are allowed on the Showdown! Gen VI ladder at the moment. This is why I have this information.

 

[LonelyNess]

I really think that there should be a mixed set of some sort. I've run into the solely special goodra set and it's really underwhelming. Its best set I've seen has been one consisting of Earthquake / Sludge Wave / Dragon Pulse and a filler move. Without Earthquake you're really weak to toxic Heatran.

 

[alexwolf]

Agreeing with DarkSlay. I would like to see his set, exactly as described, to be added.

 

[ginganinja]

Confirming what LN said, I have also used Mixed Goodra and it was very strong. Also slash sludge wave with T-Bolt, it still gets coverage on Togekiss and Azu, as well as hitting like every fairy for SE damage Bar Mawile (which you should have a fire / ground move for). Mixed gets a pass for me so far, relooking at it when showdowns ladder is fixed.

 

[dragonuser]

I have also found that bulky Fairy-type Pokemon like Florges and Sylveon make for pretty good partners for the Choice Specs set, as they have decent synergy and with Goodra's natural special bulk it is pretty easy to successfully pass Wishes. Heal Bell support from both can also be pretty cool if Goodra is status'd by annoying mons like Rotom-W.

 

[Fuzznip]

I do want an Assault Vest set on here, but I'm not entirely convinced the one presented earlier is the best one. Probably the only reason why I'd run Assault Vest Goodra is solely because of how Goodra becomes a very prominent bulky phazer with Dragon Tail, checking boosting sweepers such as Quiver Dance Volcarona, Calm Mind Reuniclus, and Growth Venusaur (just examples, I haven't checked if they are unreleased). Furthermore, with its coverage and monstrous Special Defense, it's bound to force a lot of switches, so you get ample use of Dragon Tail. For that reason, it should be on its own without any slashes in my opinion. Secondly, I'm not sure why max Attack is being run. I get it's to power up Dragon Tail, but the purpose isn't to do as much damage as possible with it. I'd rather use max Special Attack and Draco Meteor to hit something as hard as possible off of its pretty high base stat. This also powers up Fire Blast and Thunderbolt too, which is always a plus. Not a fan of Earthquake being there, since it basically only hits the unreleased Heatran if I'm not entirely mistaken. I'd rather have Sludge Wave honestly to hit literally every Fairy-types super effectively bar Mawile, who's hit by Fire Blast anyway. Lastly, I think Sap Sipper should be slashed with Gooey. It's useful when it comes to absorbing Spore/Sleep Powder or the random Grass-type attacks being thrown about. The +1 Attack boost doesn't even go to waste either, making Dragon Tail stronger than it is. Gooey is pretty situational all things considered, since it only works on contact moves and Goodra isn't going to commonly switch into such as far as I know. Overall, I'm thinking the set should be:

<p>Goodra @ Assault Vest<br />
Ability: Gooey / Sap Sipper<br />
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpA<br />
Quiet Nature (+SpA, -Spe)<br />
- Draco Meteor<br />
- Dragon Tail<br />
- Fire Blast / Flamethrower<br />
- Thunderbolt / Sludge Wave</p>

Thoughts?

 

[Green]

Sap Sipper might be useful if you switch into a Spore or Sleep Powder.

 

[alexwolf]

This is how i think the Assault Vest set should look like:

Goodra @ Assault Vest
Ability: Gooey
EV's: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpA
Nature: Sassy / Calm
Moveset:
- Draco Meteor / Dragon Pulse
- Fire Blast / Flamethrower
- Dragon Tail / Power Whip
- Thunderbolt / Sludge Wave

The Sassy nature is used to avoid the 2HKO from Greninja's Ice Beam after SR and OHKO back with either Draco Meteor or Fire Blast, both of which OHKO after two rounds of LO. Draco Meteor and Dragon Pulse are classic STAB moves, choose power or reliability depending on how you like to play. Same goes with Fire Blast and Flamethrower. Dragon Tail slowly wears down Tyranitar switch-ins (Dragon Tail + SR damage build up very fast, especially on Tyranitar sets that lack Lefties, which is most of them) and phazes special sweepers that Goodra walls, such as QD Volcarona. Power Whip is an alternative to deal more immediate damage to Tyranitar, doing 39.1 - 46.53% to 252 HP Tyranitar (30.47% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock) an otherwise perfect counter to Goodra which could harass Goodra with sandstorm damage + Pursuit. It also covers some other Water-types such as Starmie and Vaporeon, making it easier for Goodra to use Sludge Wave over Thunderbolt to deal with some Fairy-types. On the last slot, Thunderbolt is the first slash to cover Pokemon such as Azumarill, Togekiss, Tentacruel, and Mega Charizard Y (Goodra is one of the best switch-ins to this beast), but Sludge Wave is a perfectly viable option if you have trouble with Sylveon and Florges.

Earthquake is not worth it atm as Heatran is not available.

 

[Cipher Admin Lovrina]

With Gooey and uninvested speed with modest, Goodra outspeeds 294 Pokemon. Is the jury out on Modest and Assault Vest? Extra coverage is always appreciated. Would Modest with Dragon Tail and Assault Vest be out of the question? As one of the above posters mentioned, the point of Dragon Tail is to phaze. I'm just not a huge fan of reducing Gooey's utility and overall hitting power for one physical attack.

 

[Zystral]

If by Base 294 you mean 294 Speed, then raising power is significantly less relevant if you're taking chunks of damage to do it. (EDIT: Failing that, are there any notable KOes that a +SpA nature gives that Sassy doesn't?) Sassy is a fine nature, it's not like you're going for a sweep either way. Dragon Tail is your backup STAB, so it needs to hit hard for when there are no Fairies left.

I still think that if Rain proves to be a thing, Hydration can still prove to be a thing.

 

[Cipher Admin Lovrina]

In my opinion, if you are running Sassy and trying to hit anything off of your physical attack stat, then Sap Sipper deserves a slash over Gooey as an extra immunity never hurts. Doesn't Max HP, uninvested special defense with Assault Vest still survive LO Draco Meteor without entry hazards? I'm just curious if Modest with like 248 HP/252 Special Attack/8 Special Defense OR Defense is an option.

Either way, you can argue that Gooey's speed reduction is useful for forcing switches, but if you're already doing that with Dragon Tail and you're focused on bulk anyway, then Sap Sipper gives your Dragon Tail and Power Whip some extra kick and grants you an immunity to powder moves. Just a thought! You can slash Modest with Gooey or put it in other options. I wouldn't want to leave this in on something like a Tyranitar anyway.

 

[Zystral]

I'd rather then just have a separate mention somewhere that Assault Vest can be used in playing Goodra as a bulky attacker - the only concern there is that you may not have enough power to leave enough of a dent in anything.

 

[Cipher Admin Lovrina]

I just don't see what the concerns are about you not hitting anything for huge amounts of damage. With Modest and Max Special Attack you have 350 special attack, max hp and highly effective special defense. I think its a good way of optimizing its offense and defense. You have great coverage because of that special movepool and you don't have to sacrifice speed, meaning Gooey is still the ability of choice. If you're worried about getting walled by T-Tar or Heatran, switch to something else or use Focus Blast. With Gooey and minimum neutral speed nature, you can switch into a physical attack that won't KO (like Hydreigon's Superpower--though that might not make an appearance in OU) and outspeed with Gooey. If you are using a minus speed nature, then Sap Sipper is the superior option. I wouldn't be so quick to count out Assault Vest and 4 special attacks with Gooey.

 

[Disaster Area]

Fuzznip an alternative over fire blast/flamethrower is earthquake; it hits the unreleased heatran, albeit it then misses out on some other coverage.
Also anyone considered sap sippers? Chesnaught and trevenants are running a lot around the ladder putting leech seeds, horn leeches, and seed bombs everywhere, so a boosted attack combined with the mixed abusing it could certainly be considered. Also dragon pulse is an option over meteor, so as not to force yourself to switch out (then come back in unhealed against other hazard damage for example)

 

[kaonohiokala]

Maxing speed on a Modest Goodra shouldn't be the standard. You won't be outrunning anything important. If you have a 80 HP / 252 SpA / 176 Spe spread, you can still outspeed neutral base 70s and get some added bulk (90/70 physical bulk isn't that great, so every little bit helps). This lets you outrun offensive Politoed, Breloom, Scizor, and can also outrun 0 Speed base 100s.