Policy Review Policy Review - Movepool

[Time Mage]

I agree with the proposal, like everyone, but I'd like to point out one thing:

The Topic Leader will post a list of moves in the OP of the thread. This list will serve as a single point-of-reference for the current state of the discussion.

The first list of moves should be compiled by the Topic Leader prior to opening the thread, and will serve as the initial list of moves to begin discussion.

While from your wording can be derived that the list provided by the TL doesn't necessarily contain all the possible competitive moves, it wouldn't hurt to add a line commenting that, in the case the TL forgets to add one or several competitive moves to the list, someone can suggest them to be included, providing good reasoning, of course.

 

[X-Act]

When in my guide I say 'competitive move worth using' it means just that: a competitive move worth using. As someone pointed out, Stone Edge would be a competitive move on almost every Pokemon, but it's not on Stratagem. Hence, Stone Edge is NOT a competitive move for Stratagem.

Another example: Giga Drain would not be a competitive move on various Pokemon, but it IS a competitive move for Stratagem due to Technician.

This means that compiling a list of competitive moves is impossible, as this depends on the Pokemon in question.

 

[zarator]

When in my guide I say 'competitive move worth using' it means just that: a competitive move worth using. As someone pointed out, Stone Edge would be a competitive move on almost every Pokemon, but it's not on Stratagem. Hence, Stone Edge is NOT a competitive move for Stratagem.

Another example: Giga Drain would not be a competitive move on various Pokemon, but it IS a competitive move for Stratagem due to Technician.

This means that compiling a list of competitive moves is impossible, as this depends on the Pokemon in question.

I agree. I think all of you remember that Rock Smash was a competitive move for Absol pre-Platinum. And if even a low-power move like that can be competitive, why pretty much not all the others. Ok, something like tackle will be competitive only on Caterpie and friends (thinking as Caterpie as something competitive is LOL but whatever), however I think such move lists, while remarkable for the work they inquired, are not going to help us so much just because the viability of a move depends on the type of the pokemon, its stats, its type coverage in the movepool (Rock Smash was competitive for Absol since it covered things nothing else in Absol movepool could). The competitivity should always be up to the judge of the TL in my opinion, but, during at least the discussion, people should be free to introduce new moves in the discussion itself. Maybe they will be considered broken (like Slack Off on Fidgit) but this should not deny to people the right to at least propose them...

 

[RBG]

I perfectly realize that their are situations where rock smash is a "competitive move". However, since we are trying to make OU Pokes, you must realize that movepool quality will, more likely than not, include moves on the lists as ones that are competitive. I do not expect any pokemon made here to have to resort to Rock Smash as a competitive move. (Gorm and) I merely made an effort to make a list of all moves that, given how this project chooses moves, have a chance to be competitive.

 

[eric the espeon]

What about moves that would be competitive on a pokemon but are not at all due to being outclassed, a prime example would be Heat Wave on Heatran.
If its other main fire moves were absent Heat Wave would do fine and be a near essential move, but as it is no one in their right minds would use it.

 

[zarator]

I perfectly realize that their are situations where rock smash is a "competitive move". However, since we are trying to make OU Pokes, you must realize that movepool quality will, more likely than not, include moves on the lists as ones that are competitive. I do not expect any pokemon made here to have to resort to Rock Smash as a competitive move. (Gorm and) I merely made an effort to make a list of all moves that, given how this project chooses moves, have a chance to be competitive.

And stuff like Dragon Rush, Low Kick, Flame Wheel and Punishment? Only Ho-oh to my experience runs Punishment, while I never saw a pokemon using each of the first 3 moves. I dont want to mean that your list is completely useless, but it is much too situational. Having an attack may make other moves, even differently typed, not competitive. And stats also. If you think that even such a powerful move like Spikes is considered not competitive on Syclant, there remains probably only Explosion as a "whatever" competitive move (fortunately stuff like Blissey and Shuckle dont Explode, otherwise even this last sentence would be lol...).
In my opinion it is better to evaluate the single situations instead of make huge lists which leave out less than a half of the entire movelist.

What about moves that would be competitive on a pokemon but are not at all due to being outclassed, a prime example would be Heat Wave on Heatran.
If its other main fire moves were absent Heat Wave would do fine and be a near essential move, but as it is no one in their right minds would use it.

I agree, even if the bolded words are not properly a given^^ I may say that about a 2% of the Heatran I faced actually ran Heat Wave O_O

 

[RBG]

Well, my problem is that moves like Tri-Attack and Weather Ball were not ever talked about, and if we has used this new method, then they would not have been options in the last moveset, and I'm trying to provide a list of moves that shoudl be considered when thinking of competitive moves, so none are forgetten

 

[DougJustDoug]

I think we need to have these general lists of Competitive Moves. But these lists are not going to be the list of moves in the OP of a Move Discussion thread (there are two move threads in each CAP -- Attacking and Non-Attacking).

The TL will post lists of Competitive Moves for the pokemon being created. The general lists being made by RBG et al, will serve as the source for the TL to copy/paste moves. Any move that is not included in these general lists, can still be added to the TL's lists, if there are extenuating circumstances of the pokemon that make a generally non-competitive move, competitive for the pokemon in question. But, these lists allow us to cull the complete movelist -- so the TL doesn't need to deal with generally useless moves.

The TL's decision of which moves are Competitive, can be discussed in the move thread. People can argue for or against the TL's categorization, providing reasoning, of course.

@Time Mage -- Yes, I think the wording can be improved. Any suggestions?

 

[gorm]

Naturally X-act is right but i think rbg and i might have raw statistics on our side, could we approach this using move usage statistics or is that again too arbitrary?

Either way there's a couple of things we can do at this point
1. Scrap the lists, and decide what is "competitive" case by case.
2. Split the lists into "could be competitive" and "overwhelmingly competitive".
3. Use the lists (with possible improvements) as a reference for the tl right after style bias is determined. (edit: basically what doug said)

I agree. I think all of you remember that Rock Smash was a competitive move for Absol pre-Platinum.

it might also be worth noting that absol is uu! I'm not saying there's cases where it's not a competitive move for an OU poke, but these kinds of moves are going to be decided on later when we have a better idea of what the pokemon's ability will be, since ability seems to be

as far as competitive moves being restricted by an actual movepool, That's for the tl to decide (ex don't give it meteor mash, that's broken; stick with iron head) but apart from that i can't see a huge variation outside of these lists... if there is it's gonna be obvious stuff like technician/serene grace/simple etc which will hopefully jump out.

 

[Time Mage]

@Time Mage -- Yes, I think the wording can be improved. Any suggestions?

Hm, let's see what I can do:

The Topic Leader will post a list of moves in the OP of the thread. This list will serve as a single point-of-reference for the current state of the discussion.

The first list of moves should be compiled by the Topic Leader prior to opening the thread, and will serve as the initial list of moves to begin discussion. Although the list should contain all moves that could be competitively viable, the TL may have forgotten some, so members can suggest moves to be added to the list, provided that they back up the suggestion with good reasoning.

The list of moves will be separated into three sections indicating the "status" of the move in the current discussion -- Allowed, Disallowed, Controversial, or Pending.

It's maybe a bit too wordy, so feel free to edit it.

 

[DougJustDoug]

It's maybe a bit too wordy, so feel free to edit it.

Yeah, I'm well-known to be short and succinct with my words....
*cough* *cough*

I think your wording is fine. I'll use it, if there are no objections or better suggestions.

 

[Comatose811]

Wouldn't Paleo Wave be a competitive Special Rock move? Or are we not going to give it to anyone else? I mean, if we have Aeroblast, Sacred Fire and Chatter (which can't even be Sketched), then Paleo Wave should be considered.

 

[Deck Knight]

Why include some swifts but not others? The lists are missing:
Special:
Magical Leaf
Shock Wave

Physical
Faint Attack
Magnet Bomb

If we're considering Technician users, these can all be viable. If not, Magical Leaf and Shock Wave can still be viable if say, we want a pokemon to be able to kill swampert/gyarados without wasting their HP but still be walled by stuff like milotic.

The reason I added Swift and Shadow Punch was because 1: lack of options B: no blatantly superior option if given Technician. Hyper Voice, and Tech Swift are essentially interchangeable, although HV is arguably worse because it has no additional effect, less PP, and is blocked by Soundproof. Tri Attack has 80 BP, so either is superior if you don't count the status chances.

In Faint Attack(And Bite)'s case, all Dark moves have 100 acc anyway. Payback is a TM and basically stronger in almost any competitive instance. Dark Pulse also has flinch, more BP, and is a TM. Of pokemon who get evasion from Abilities, Mamoswine, Gliscor, and Sandslash take pathetic damage because of their defenses, and Cacturne resists. Only Froslass is really effected.

Thunderbolt is stronger than Tech Shock Wave and has a paralysis effect. Thunder in Rain is twice as powerful, even goes through Protect, and has 30% paralysis.

Magic Leaf has Giga Drain for its Technician competition and Energy Ball for non-Tech. Of the pokemon who get Evasion boosts from their abilities, it hits Mamoswine and Sandslash hard, but Cacturne resists and Froslass/Gliscor are neutral.

I might reconsider adding Magnet Bomb, but honestly Iron Head's 30% flinch is a superior effect than perfect accuracy.

My Edits in Bold:

Other Competitive Moves:

blast burn almost always loses to overheat I'll agree. the others are greyer.

went ahead and made the other section. broke this one down by effect and not typing

[b]other competitive moves[/b]

[u]Stat Boosting[/u]
-Acid Armour
-Accupressure
-Agility
-Amnesia
-Barrier
-Belly Drum
-Bulk Up
-Calm Mind
-Cosmic Power
-Curse
-Defend Order
-Dragon Dance
-Growth
-Kinesis
-Iron Defense
-Meditate
-Nasty Plot
[B]-Psych Up[/B]
-Rock Polish
-Stockpile
-Swords Dance
[B]-Tail Glow[/B]

[u]Stat Reducing[/u]
-Charm
-Fake Tears
-Feather Dance
-Memento
-Metal Sound
-Screech
-Tickle


[u]HP Restoration[/u]
-Aqua Ring
-Heal Order
-Ingrain (maybe more team support)
-Milk Drink
-Moonlight
-Morning Sun
-Recover
-Rest
-Roost
-Softboiled
-Slack Off
-Synthesis

[u]Miscellanious Team support[/u]
-Aromatherapy
-Baton Pass
-Block
-Destiny Bond
-Encore
-Endure
-Gravity
-Haze
-Heal Bell
-Imprison
-Leech Seed
-Light Screen
-Magnet Rise
-Mean Look
-Perish Song
-Protect
-Psych up
-Psycho Shift
-Rain Dance
-Recycle
-Roar
-Safeguard
[B]-Skill Swap[/B]
-Snatch
-Spikes
-Spider Web
-Stealth Rock
-Sunny Day
-Switcheroo
[B]-Tailwind[/B]
-Taunt
-Toxic Spikes
-Trick
-Trick Room
-Whirlwind
[B]-Worry Seed[/B]

[u]Status Inducing[/u]
-Confuse Ray
-Curse (ghost)
-Dark Void
-Glare
-Hypnosis
-Lovely Kiss
-Sing
-Sleep Powder
-Spore
-Stun Spore
[B]-Swagger[/B]
-Sweet Kiss
-Teeter Dance
-Thunder Wave
-Toxic
-Will o Wisp
-Yawn

[B][u]Weather[/u]
-Hail
-Rain Dance
-Sandstorm
-Sunny Day

[U]Low-Power Support[/U]
-Knock Off
-Rapid Spin

[U]Mimicry[/U]
-Me First
-Mirror Move
-Sleep Talk

[U]Retaliation[/U]
-Counter
-Magic Coat
-Metal Burst
-Mirror Coat[/B]

These can be moved around to other lists or whatever, but these are the better support moves.

Added Psych Up and Tail Glow to stat boosters.

Added Skill Swap, Tailwind, and Worry Seed (opponents ability -> Insomnia) to Misc Team Support.

Added Swagger to Status Inducing.

Added Weather Section for Weather moves.

Added Low Power Support Section for Knock Off and Rapid Spin

Added Mimicry Section for moves that either select from your moves or recreate the opponents. (Moved: Sleep Talk)

Added Retaliation Section for moves that reflect damage or attacks back to opponents. (Moved: Magic Coat)

 

[X-Act]

What about Power Swap, Guard Swap and Heart Swap? If you include Psych Up then certainly you'll need to include these.

Power Trick is also there, but I don't know if it's a 'competitive' move. It largely depends on that Pokemon's stats.

There's also Leech Seed for HP restoration, and maybe Pain Split.

 

[zarator]

I think we need to have these general lists of Competitive Moves. But these lists are not going to be the list of moves in the OP of a Move Discussion thread (there are two move threads in each CAP -- Attacking and Non-Attacking).

The TL will post lists of Competitive Moves for the pokemon being created. The general lists being made by RBG et al, will serve as the source for the TL to copy/paste moves. Any move that is not included in these general lists, can still be added to the TL's lists, if there are extenuating circumstances of the pokemon that make a generally non-competitive move, competitive for the pokemon in question. But, these lists allow us to cull the complete movelist -- so the TL doesn't need to deal with generally useless moves.

The TL's decision of which moves are Competitive, can be discussed in the move thread. People can argue for or against the TL's categorization, providing reasoning, of course.

@Time Mage -- Yes, I think the wording can be improved. Any suggestions?

The problem, in my opinion, is that the competitivity of a move depends also on the other moves. A move apparently competitive may be pointless if it does not add any sort of coverage. I mean something like X-Scissor on Weavile. Aside from Celebi, there is little you would use this move for, even if it is very competitive on many other pokes like Scizor.

 

[Hyra]

I'm going to go on a slight tangent here (not that the lists aren't a good idea, they are just so good they only have minor issues to be worked out now).

I find the submitting of multiple movepools to be bad form. How many people actually look through all the movepools and compare them to each other and see whats different and make an entirely informed decision. Most people have certain criteria they want and they vote for the first movepool that supports that. Reading one movepool to find what you want is an involved task, reading ten just tires you out.

I think we need to do something to revise the Wall of Text format of the current movepool voting threads. Does everyone need to list all the TMs you expect to be on a Pokemon? Really, it would be nice if we just listed the additions to the basic movepool the movepool designers add, instead of just throwing multiple lists of over a page in length (in MS Word). I know the summaries are supposed to do this, but they don't mention all the moves added / removed, just the ones they want to mention to get support.

I just find the current process to be less user friendly than it could be, which isn't really good for something so important to creating a Pokemon.

 

[RBG]

How about we list which moves are different in each moveset? Frankly, the whole levelup list is nice, but when it comes to voting, seeing the level up list is not necceary. How about, the begginging of the post is the list of moves that they all get, and then under each persons name, you list the (competitive) moves that make their movepool look different, that way, people can easily see what the movepool has to offer that another doesn't.

 

[jagged_angel]

How about we list which moves are different in each moveset? Frankly, the whole levelup list is nice, but when it comes to voting, seeing the level up list is not necceary. How about, the begginging of the post is the list of moves that they all get, and then under each persons name, you list the (competitive) moves that make their movepool look different, that way, people can easily see what the movepool has to offer that another doesn't.

That sounds sensible But if we're not going to list the non-competitive moves (I'm not talking about debatable or semi competitive moves a la Rock Smash, I'm talking about Level Up moves like Scratch) then why have a Level Up list at all? Why give the pokemon TMs like Shock Wave if we give it Thunderbolt. Why include any sort of flavour in the movepool at all? The Level Up, TMs and Egg Moves can all be cut down drastically if flavour is removed.
Then if the process is changed to the one you propose, people aren't missing anything extra about each movepool because literally the only difference between movepools are the choices of competitive moves.

I'm not sure whether I want movepools without any flavour moves but it sure would make it easier to follow your suggestion RB Golbat.


I would suggest that each Movepool submission should require a new format whereby the decisions behind move changes be extensively explained at the top of each movepool with notable competitive moves in bold lists. That way people can skim through the lengthy posts and compare the bold lists of each movepool. If they're interested they can take the time to read the lengthy Level Up and TM lists.

 

[tennisace]

I would suggest that each Movepool submission should require a new format whereby the decisions behind move changes be extensively explained at the top of each movepool with notable competitive moves in bold lists. That way people can skim through the lengthy posts and compare the bold lists of each movepool. If they're interested they can take the time to read the lengthy Level Up and TM lists.

I completely agree with this. Movepools are quite confusing, and missing one move can make/break a movepool. However, the flavor moves are necessary for the movepool, if only for "flavor". This is a competitive project, but we still need some "lure" for the average user besides art. This is why flavor moves should be separate, but I digress.

 

[beej]

I have incredible difficulty understanding how exactly we define a move as competitive in a general sense. Even Earthquake, arguably the best attacking move in the game, is useless on a whole bunch of Pokemon. Would you call Earthquake a competitive move if we were making a Pokemon with Blissey-like Attack? Or what about DynamicPunch, generally an incredibly shitty move that is put to great use on No Guard Machamp? From Aromatherapy on Blissey vs. Aromatherapy on Roserade to Swords Dance on Garchomp vs. Swords Dance on Jumpluff, I don't see how "competitive move" is a static term. This can be applied to virtually every "great" move in the game.

 

[tennisace]

Earthquake is a competitive move in a general sense: good type coverage, it has high base power/accuracy, and its not outclassed by any physical Ground move.

Bubble is a non-competitive move in a general sense: decent type coverage but horrible base power, and it's outclassed by Hydro Pump and Surf.

See what I'm getting at? We just need a list of moves like Earthquake (which we have), and then put a disclaimer that its a general list, and not all the moves on there are competitive on every Pokemon, ex. Stratagem and Earthquake.

 

[beej]

But tennis, even if Earthquake is generally a good move, does this mean it should be considered competitive in the movepool of every CAP? Earthquake is basically a gimmick on Fidgit, and I don't think anybody in their right mind would call it a competitive move on Blissey. Is it really possible to simply define a move as "competitive"? And if we do go with this definition, will we declare it competitive in the movepool of any Pokemon?

 

[tennisace]

But tennis, even if Earthquake is generally a good move, does this mean it should be considered competitive in the movepool of every CAP? Earthquake is basically a gimmick on Fidgit, and I don't think anybody in their right mind would call it a competitive move on Blissey. Is it really possible to simply define a move as "competitive"? And if we do go with this definition, will we declare it competitive in the movepool of any Pokemon?

No. The TL will decide on a case-by-case basis, as per usual. From what I can see its just to help the TL and community see what generally are competitive moves in their own "classes", like the beams for special attackers and the punches for physical attackers.

 

[DougJustDoug]

I find the submitting of multiple movepools to be bad form. How many people actually look through all the movepools and compare them to each other and see whats different and make an entirely informed decision. Most people have certain criteria they want and they vote for the first movepool that supports that. Reading one movepool to find what you want is an involved task, reading ten just tires you out.

I think we need to do something to revise the Wall of Text format of the current movepool voting threads. Does everyone need to list all the TMs you expect to be on a Pokemon? Really, it would be nice if we just listed the additions to the basic movepool the movepool designers add, instead of just throwing multiple lists of over a page in length (in MS Word). I know the summaries are supposed to do this, but they don't mention all the moves added / removed, just the ones they want to mention to get support.

I just find the current process to be less user friendly than it could be, which isn't really good for something so important to creating a Pokemon.

I'd like to close this PR thread, but I think Hyra raises a very good point, and it hasn't been solved yet.

I suggest the Topic Leader makes a "Base TM Movepool" that lists all the TM's that are common amongst most of the chosen submitters. The submitters could then tailor their Submission posts, to show only the TM's they wish to add or remove. This would go a long way to reducing the size of movepool submissions.

Any other suggestions that can make movepool submissions more efficient -- I'm interested to hear them.

 

[RBG]

I'd like to close this PR thread, but I think Hyra raises a very good point, and it hasn't been solved yet.

I suggest the Topic Leader makes a "Base TM Movepool" that lists all the TM's that are common amongst most of the chosen submitters. The submitters could then tailor their Submission posts, to show only the TM's they wish to add or remove. This would go a long way to reducing the size of movepool submissions.

Any other suggestions that can make movepool submissions more efficient -- I'm interested to hear them.

How about we list which moves are different in each moveset? Frankly, the whole levelup list is nice, but when it comes to voting, seeing the level up list is not necceary. How about, the begginging of the post is the list of moves that they all get, and then under each persons name, you list the (competitive) moves that make their movepool look different, that way, people can easily see what the movepool has to offer that another doesn't.

Personally, I think there should be one list that lists all the moves they share, and then each moveset creator gets one list with moves that make theirs stand out. That way, people don't have to examine the movepools to see what the differance is between them, it will already be there

I'd add more (and I might later) but my laptop is almost out of power and class is starting.