Unless Kadabra knows an electric move (which Gardevoir does), I don't think it has any real positive matchups given there are not absolutely positive matchups with psychic in the Elite Four. It's a flip, though; Gardevoir doesn't do as well as Kadabra in the early game.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Pokemon Ruby, Sapphire, and Emerald In-Game Tier List Discussion
- Thread starter Merritt
- Start date
- Status
It has Shock Wave, but 60 base power doesn't cut it for OHKOs
I did not specifically test this but based on the other damage ranges I observed I am very skeptical of this claim
How does the E4's AI work? Glacia might just have the Glalie set up Hail or Light Screen on your first Calm Mind.
That's obviously not something to count on and getting Screened would suck, but it could let you set up. Maybe.
Edit: She leads with a Sealeo that knows Body Slam in Emerald, so setting up Kadabra doesn't sound like a consistent strat at all.
That's obviously not something to count on and getting Screened would suck, but it could let you set up. Maybe.
Edit: She leads with a Sealeo that knows Body Slam in Emerald, so setting up Kadabra doesn't sound like a consistent strat at all.
(note that this assumes Kadabra is Lvl 45 and has 31 IV's.)
0 SpA Glalie Crunch vs. +1 0 HP / 0 SpD Kadabra: 52-62 (50 - 59.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
yeah no way is NotAlakazam sweeping
0 SpA Glalie Crunch vs. +1 0 HP / 0 SpD Kadabra: 52-62 (50 - 59.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
yeah no way is NotAlakazam sweeping
assuming Kadabra has 16 IVs and 84 EVs, and Glalie has 31 IVs and 0 EVs, calm nature is there to simulate the badge boost
In that case, maybe the player can just not set up on Sealeo. After Elite 4 Pokemon faint, the Elite 4 member should always send in the first Pokemon with a super effective attack. So if the lead Sealeo faints when the player's Pokemon is weak to ice or dark, then Glacia sends in Glalie. If not, and the player's Pokemon is weak to ghost or water, then Glacia sends in the other Glalie or Walrein. If the player's Pokemon isn't weak to ghost or water and doesn't resist both ice and dark, then Glacia sends in Glalie. So it shouldn't be too hard to get her to send in Glalie as her second Pokemon.
Sumwun said
In short, Glacia just fucks over NotAlakazam and i respect the ranking it got from FireyCloverGirl.
The fact of the matter is that it's very hard to set up and sweep Glacia with Kadabra. Ignoring Crunch, it also packs Light Screen to weaken CM boosts and Icy Wind to lower your speed to the point where at -1, the 2nd Glalie outspeeds and oneshots with Shadow Ball. Not to mention that darn sheer fucking cold Walrein that can probably take one hit and Body Slam you to death.
In short, Glacia just fucks over NotAlakazam and i respect the ranking it got from FireyCloverGirl.
Does Glalie ever use icy wind when crunch is more super effective? And why can't Kadabra stall out the light screen by using calm mind more times?
Also can you call me "sumwun" and not "Sumwun"? Thanks.
84 special defense EVs is a very high assumption, only tentacool/cruel would be consistent sources, I'd estimate 50 EVs as the high end there. Glalie will sometimes use Icy Wind first yes.
Draken dracken dricken drop
Solrock: Rock Slide is sometimes a 3HKO (I seemed to miss the 3HKO consistently) but Dragon Claw is a 2HKO back so this depends on flinches and Rock Tomb and misses but is likely a loss without potions. Rock Slide will 3HKO Salamence at -1 but Crunch will have a roll to OHKO you (left me with 1 and 4 and 7 hp on tests, 129 hp 78 sdef). Psychic does not 3HKO Flygon and Crunch 2HKOs back, losing matchup. Rock Slide 2HKOs Altaria, Dragonbreath 3HKOs back, winning matchup. Kingdra OHKOs you with Surf.
Conclusion: E grade, Altaria win is nice but you can do very little else.
Mightyena: Free Howl on the first turn Protect, Strength will then 3HKO before Dragon Claw or Double-Edge - my fight also had Shelgon burn a turn using Rock Tomb for nothing. Altaria came in next for me, this can be won with potion support as Altaria cannot 2HKO you and you 3HKO each other (with a shade of Double-Edge recoil support). Kingdra is a big nope. Salamence always 2HKOs you, you do next to nothing, same for Flygon.
Conclusion: E grade, Shelgon win is nice, competitive vs Altaria if necessary.
Whiscash: Earthquake+Ice Beam 2HKOd Shelgon, took 40% from Rock Tomb+Double-Edge. Altaria, Dragonbreath for 30%, Ice Beam does 80% (and a freeze), clear win. Kingdra, Surf and Earthquake are off setting 3HKOs so you win with potion support. Flygon, Earthquake does not 2HKO, Ice Beam OHKOs, gg. Salamence, Dragon Claw is a 3HKO, Ice Beam 2HKOs (80%, Sitrus), gg.
Conclusion: A grade with a strong argument for S given the relative difficulty to clean sweep Drake. Needs Potion healing through the fight but 1v1s everything cleanly except for Kingdra which it 1v1s with a Potion. Easy MVP of my team.
Kadabra: No good spots for a CM set up against this lineup, even Shelgon of all things refuses to go for the t1 Protect. You do hit Shelgon for 80-85% though. Only 33% to Altaria which DDs once and OHKOs you with Double-Edge. 40% to Kingdra with Psychic while it DDs up and OHKOs you with Body Slam. 45% to Flygon which OHKOs you with Earthquake. Salamence outright outspeeds and OHKOs you with Crunch.
Conclusion: Has to be an F grade. You can pop in and out for some clean up duty but you can't set up, can't take a hit from anything, and don't hit hard enough to be really impactful.
Dodrio: Tri Attack+Hyper Beam beats Shelgon, Dragon Claw will 2HKO back. Salamence 2HKOs you and you can't quite KO back with Tri Attack+Hyper Beam but you might outspeed (I speed tied at 120) so you are able to revive and come back in for the kill, or hit a 60% chunk after an ally. Tri Attack 3HKOs Altaria but it will also go for Dragon Dance+Double Edge and the recoil will either gaurantee a KO with Hyper Beam or give you a good roll for a Tri Attack 2HKO. Tri Attack+Hyper Beam just 2HKOs Kingdra whom you outspeed, Surf 2HKOing in return. See previous for Flygon.
Conclusion: B grade I think. Able to be competitive in 1v1s but reliant on Hyper Beam power at this level. Able to pretty comfortably pop in and out off of ally sacs though, and potentially outspeeding Salamence is big.
Vileplume: You outspeed Shelgon and Sleep Powder it, Sludge Bomb is a 4HKO unless you roll the poison. Flygon EQ does about 60%, Petal Dance 3HKOs back, you win this clean if you get the 50/50 Sleep roll. Salamence does about 80% with Flamethrower before getting slept, Sludge Bomb does 25% or so per chunk. Altaria is a bad matchup but +1 Aerial Ace only does 65% so you can still sleep and chunk this for 30% or so. Same deal for Kingdra, Body Slam does 35%ish.
Conclusion: Either D or C, not sure. Good tank/sleep utility, not much damage but can do some. Good heal tank if needed.
Solrock: Rock Slide is sometimes a 3HKO (I seemed to miss the 3HKO consistently) but Dragon Claw is a 2HKO back so this depends on flinches and Rock Tomb and misses but is likely a loss without potions. Rock Slide will 3HKO Salamence at -1 but Crunch will have a roll to OHKO you (left me with 1 and 4 and 7 hp on tests, 129 hp 78 sdef). Psychic does not 3HKO Flygon and Crunch 2HKOs back, losing matchup. Rock Slide 2HKOs Altaria, Dragonbreath 3HKOs back, winning matchup. Kingdra OHKOs you with Surf.
Conclusion: E grade, Altaria win is nice but you can do very little else.
Mightyena: Free Howl on the first turn Protect, Strength will then 3HKO before Dragon Claw or Double-Edge - my fight also had Shelgon burn a turn using Rock Tomb for nothing. Altaria came in next for me, this can be won with potion support as Altaria cannot 2HKO you and you 3HKO each other (with a shade of Double-Edge recoil support). Kingdra is a big nope. Salamence always 2HKOs you, you do next to nothing, same for Flygon.
Conclusion: E grade, Shelgon win is nice, competitive vs Altaria if necessary.
Whiscash: Earthquake+Ice Beam 2HKOd Shelgon, took 40% from Rock Tomb+Double-Edge. Altaria, Dragonbreath for 30%, Ice Beam does 80% (and a freeze), clear win. Kingdra, Surf and Earthquake are off setting 3HKOs so you win with potion support. Flygon, Earthquake does not 2HKO, Ice Beam OHKOs, gg. Salamence, Dragon Claw is a 3HKO, Ice Beam 2HKOs (80%, Sitrus), gg.
Conclusion: A grade with a strong argument for S given the relative difficulty to clean sweep Drake. Needs Potion healing through the fight but 1v1s everything cleanly except for Kingdra which it 1v1s with a Potion. Easy MVP of my team.
Kadabra: No good spots for a CM set up against this lineup, even Shelgon of all things refuses to go for the t1 Protect. You do hit Shelgon for 80-85% though. Only 33% to Altaria which DDs once and OHKOs you with Double-Edge. 40% to Kingdra with Psychic while it DDs up and OHKOs you with Body Slam. 45% to Flygon which OHKOs you with Earthquake. Salamence outright outspeeds and OHKOs you with Crunch.
Conclusion: Has to be an F grade. You can pop in and out for some clean up duty but you can't set up, can't take a hit from anything, and don't hit hard enough to be really impactful.
Dodrio: Tri Attack+Hyper Beam beats Shelgon, Dragon Claw will 2HKO back. Salamence 2HKOs you and you can't quite KO back with Tri Attack+Hyper Beam but you might outspeed (I speed tied at 120) so you are able to revive and come back in for the kill, or hit a 60% chunk after an ally. Tri Attack 3HKOs Altaria but it will also go for Dragon Dance+Double Edge and the recoil will either gaurantee a KO with Hyper Beam or give you a good roll for a Tri Attack 2HKO. Tri Attack+Hyper Beam just 2HKOs Kingdra whom you outspeed, Surf 2HKOing in return. See previous for Flygon.
Conclusion: B grade I think. Able to be competitive in 1v1s but reliant on Hyper Beam power at this level. Able to pretty comfortably pop in and out off of ally sacs though, and potentially outspeeding Salamence is big.
Vileplume: You outspeed Shelgon and Sleep Powder it, Sludge Bomb is a 4HKO unless you roll the poison. Flygon EQ does about 60%, Petal Dance 3HKOs back, you win this clean if you get the 50/50 Sleep roll. Salamence does about 80% with Flamethrower before getting slept, Sludge Bomb does 25% or so per chunk. Altaria is a bad matchup but +1 Aerial Ace only does 65% so you can still sleep and chunk this for 30% or so. Same deal for Kingdra, Body Slam does 35%ish.
Conclusion: Either D or C, not sure. Good tank/sleep utility, not much damage but can do some. Good heal tank if needed.
I've made it to past Flannery now, figured I'd give an update. Sorry if it's somewhat poorly formatted.
Upon entering Slateport I went to catch Electrike and fought most the trainers, ended up getting Shedinja just before the May fight. I taught it Swagger from the Move Tutor and then proceeded on.
Rival: Against May on Route 110: Every single one of May’s Pokemon has a way of damaging Shedinja, making it very ineffective. (Even in different battles the only Poke Shedinja can take is Marshtomp, all other potential members can still kill Shedinja). As for the rest of the team, Geodude also fairs really poorly as in my May fight all her pokes have a super effective move on Geodude. Electrike did negligible damage but was able to spread Thunder Wave during the fight which was very useful in defeating Combusken. Lastly Grovyle basically had to solo this fight and did so relatively easily once Combusken was para’d. It doesn’t really fear Lombre or Wingull much at all (even if Wingull has stab Wing Attack).
General Trainers:
Shedinja is able to wall most of the trainers on Route 110 and deal decent damage, Fury Cutter allows you to build up to OHKO’s rather effectively.
Grovyle resists most the attacks the trainers on this route have and can deal significant damage in return.
Geodude also fairs well because many of the trainers have electric types, and in the double battles Magnitude from Geodude with Shedinja as its partner destroys most of the trainers at little risk to yourself.
Electrike unfortunately fairs pretty poor during these fights, most the trainers are electric so it doesn’t hold any advantages, and its weak stats and attacks are pretty underwhelming.
Wattson: Shedinja can’t stay in on Voltorb due to it carrying Rollout, however Shedinja does wall the rest of Wattson’s team, and does particularly well against Manectric and Electrike. Fury Cutter will make it so you can eventually deal with threats even like Magneton relatively easily, though you need to watch out for Magneton’s Supersonic (I set-up 6 Double Teams to avoid this and also to avoid Thunder Waves, I also equip a Cheri Berry for Static). Ultimately this gives Shedinja a fairly good match-up against Wattson as he can completely wall half his team, and semi-walls Magneton.
I would say overall Shedinja’s performance in this battle was a B, he can deal with several incredible threats, but can require significant set-up to do so with Double Team and can require a fair amount of luck (To avoid Supersonic and Statics). But even if para’d Wonder Guard gives Shedinja plenty of utility against Wattson, even if just to heal up other pokemon.
Geodude absolutely destroys Wattsons team with Magnitude and has nothing to fear from Wattson. Easily an A or S ranked performance.
Grovyle resists the stab electric moves from Wattson but for me it struggled to do any real damage with Bullet Seed. With Fury Cutter you can build damage and manage to get some kills, but with Static on Electrike and Manectric it’s very difficult to actually manage this. I’d say probably a C rank performance, it can certainly contribute but is held back by several glaring problems (Namely a lack of reliable damage).
Electrike fairs horribly, Magneton resists it completely, it lacks any good damaging moves to deal with anything else, Manectric can set-up Howl’s on it, and Voltorb can start it’s Rollout chain. It has very poor defensive utility and the only real useful thing it can do in the fight is spread T-wave, which is marginally useful but probably unnecessary. Overall an E rank performance imo.
Surrounding Trainers: Shedinja fairs very poorly against most of the surrounding trainers as most of them are flying typed, and have super-effective moves. Later on the trainers transition to a lot of rock and fire type moves.
Team Magma: Shedinja fairs poorly due to the amount of fire and dark moves that Team Magma commonly has.
Flannery: Manectric might seem to have a poor match-up against Flannery, but with Howl and Strength Manectric actually manages to OHKO Numel (It also survives Numels attacks, so long as you don’t get really bad Magnitude rolls, mine lived a Magnitude 9 but I never got hit by 10) and Slugma. My Manectric also OHKO’d Camerupt with Strength, but this seems to be a roll. As for Torkoal it is barely 2HKO’d by Strength and will OHKO Manectric in return, so I opted to use T-wave on it instead. Overall Manectric seems to have a A- level performance, being able to deal with significant members of Flannery’s team.
Shedinja: Solid F tier contribution here, every poke in the gym has a way of damaging Shedinja.
Grovyle: It outspeeds her whole team which is nice but lacks any real good methods of damaging her team. Can pick off weakened mons if really needed.
Graveler: Magnitude does tons of damage to her whole team, and more importantly a Rollout Sweep is very viable against her. You do need to be careful of Overheat though as it can kill you, especially in the sun due to Gravelers trash sp. def.
Upon entering Slateport I went to catch Electrike and fought most the trainers, ended up getting Shedinja just before the May fight. I taught it Swagger from the Move Tutor and then proceeded on.
Rival: Against May on Route 110: Every single one of May’s Pokemon has a way of damaging Shedinja, making it very ineffective. (Even in different battles the only Poke Shedinja can take is Marshtomp, all other potential members can still kill Shedinja). As for the rest of the team, Geodude also fairs really poorly as in my May fight all her pokes have a super effective move on Geodude. Electrike did negligible damage but was able to spread Thunder Wave during the fight which was very useful in defeating Combusken. Lastly Grovyle basically had to solo this fight and did so relatively easily once Combusken was para’d. It doesn’t really fear Lombre or Wingull much at all (even if Wingull has stab Wing Attack).
General Trainers:
Shedinja is able to wall most of the trainers on Route 110 and deal decent damage, Fury Cutter allows you to build up to OHKO’s rather effectively.
Grovyle resists most the attacks the trainers on this route have and can deal significant damage in return.
Geodude also fairs well because many of the trainers have electric types, and in the double battles Magnitude from Geodude with Shedinja as its partner destroys most of the trainers at little risk to yourself.
Electrike unfortunately fairs pretty poor during these fights, most the trainers are electric so it doesn’t hold any advantages, and its weak stats and attacks are pretty underwhelming.
Wattson: Shedinja can’t stay in on Voltorb due to it carrying Rollout, however Shedinja does wall the rest of Wattson’s team, and does particularly well against Manectric and Electrike. Fury Cutter will make it so you can eventually deal with threats even like Magneton relatively easily, though you need to watch out for Magneton’s Supersonic (I set-up 6 Double Teams to avoid this and also to avoid Thunder Waves, I also equip a Cheri Berry for Static). Ultimately this gives Shedinja a fairly good match-up against Wattson as he can completely wall half his team, and semi-walls Magneton.
I would say overall Shedinja’s performance in this battle was a B, he can deal with several incredible threats, but can require significant set-up to do so with Double Team and can require a fair amount of luck (To avoid Supersonic and Statics). But even if para’d Wonder Guard gives Shedinja plenty of utility against Wattson, even if just to heal up other pokemon.
Geodude absolutely destroys Wattsons team with Magnitude and has nothing to fear from Wattson. Easily an A or S ranked performance.
Grovyle resists the stab electric moves from Wattson but for me it struggled to do any real damage with Bullet Seed. With Fury Cutter you can build damage and manage to get some kills, but with Static on Electrike and Manectric it’s very difficult to actually manage this. I’d say probably a C rank performance, it can certainly contribute but is held back by several glaring problems (Namely a lack of reliable damage).
Electrike fairs horribly, Magneton resists it completely, it lacks any good damaging moves to deal with anything else, Manectric can set-up Howl’s on it, and Voltorb can start it’s Rollout chain. It has very poor defensive utility and the only real useful thing it can do in the fight is spread T-wave, which is marginally useful but probably unnecessary. Overall an E rank performance imo.
Surrounding Trainers: Shedinja fairs very poorly against most of the surrounding trainers as most of them are flying typed, and have super-effective moves. Later on the trainers transition to a lot of rock and fire type moves.
Team Magma: Shedinja fairs poorly due to the amount of fire and dark moves that Team Magma commonly has.
Flannery: Manectric might seem to have a poor match-up against Flannery, but with Howl and Strength Manectric actually manages to OHKO Numel (It also survives Numels attacks, so long as you don’t get really bad Magnitude rolls, mine lived a Magnitude 9 but I never got hit by 10) and Slugma. My Manectric also OHKO’d Camerupt with Strength, but this seems to be a roll. As for Torkoal it is barely 2HKO’d by Strength and will OHKO Manectric in return, so I opted to use T-wave on it instead. Overall Manectric seems to have a A- level performance, being able to deal with significant members of Flannery’s team.
Shedinja: Solid F tier contribution here, every poke in the gym has a way of damaging Shedinja.
Grovyle: It outspeeds her whole team which is nice but lacks any real good methods of damaging her team. Can pick off weakened mons if really needed.
Graveler: Magnitude does tons of damage to her whole team, and more importantly a Rollout Sweep is very viable against her. You do need to be careful of Overheat though as it can kill you, especially in the sun due to Gravelers trash sp. def.
#WeAretheMachampions
or
Where's Wallace(do)?
Kadabra: Shock Wave off the drop does about 35% and makes Water Spout barely liveable, sacced Mightyena to get in and then was able to get a Calm Mind up, -1 Double-Edge is a clean 2HKO though so I had to KO immediately with a second Shock Wave. Tentacruel was next and with Sludge Bomb heal spamming wouldn't work but Kadabra was able to outspeed and OHKO with a crit Psychic. Ludiclo then came in and provided an opporunity to set up to +6 and +6 Shock Wave was able to 2HKO (Double Team etc). Whiscash was OHKOed by +6 Psychic, Gyarados by Shock Wave, and then Milotic merced me with a crit Surf when I went to heal.
On a re-roll, Psychic was able to deal only 90% to Tentacruel and it KOed the weakened Kadabra with Hydro Pump. Ludicolo can still be used as comfortable set-up fodder however, using Whiscash to kill Tenta and Revive up, but Leech Seed may prevent it from being able to sweep through everyone, 2x Surf+3 Seeds was sufficient to KO me.
In a different run I used a second Mightyena Intimidate to allow Kadabra to get to +2 on Wailord so that I would be able to test +6 Psychic on Milotic, this failed to OHKO dealing roughl 90% but the only recourse available was a failed Toxic.
Individually, Kadabra will get 2HKOed by Wailord without 2HKOing back, will 2HKO Tentacruel with Psychic but be OHKOed by Sludge Bomb in return, will use Ludicolo as set up fodder and win with 2 +6 Shock Waves, Whiscash has Amnesia and OHKOs with Earthquake while you only 3HKO back, barely loses Milotic surprisingly, Toxic and two +1 Psychics does enough for the Synchronized Poison to KO Milotic as it KOs you with a second Surf unless Sitrus pulls it ot of range, and Shock Wave 2HKOs Gyarados but loses to an Earthquake OHKO.
Conclusion: I think this is a B performance, Kadabra showed that it was capable of sweeping with some pitfalls (Leech Seed, crits, Toxic+Full Restores), but it required fairly significant team and potion support to do so and was incapable of beating any enemies except Ludicolo one on one.
Solrock: No.
Conclusion: No.
Dodrio: Wailord will OHKO you wit Blizzard but if it misses or after a Revive you do actually 2HKO with Tri Attack+Hyper Beam. Against Tentacruel you juuuust live an Ice Beam and are then able to 2HKO with Tri Attack+Hyper Beam (TA just misses the 2HKO on its own). Milotic is a no go, Ice Beam will OHKO and you don't 2HKO. vs Ludicolo you clean OHKO with Fly or 2HKO with Tri Attack, just have to not get accuracy haxed. Whiscash you 3HKO with Tri Attack, it 2HKOs back with Surf but also likes to use Amnesia first so you should win this. Against Gyarados you win if you aren't Intimidated and it goes for Surf t1 because Tri Attack+Hyper Beam will kill,but you lose if it Hyper Beams or you stay in on the switch holy shit during Whiscash's run this won outright by 2HKOing with Hyper Beam and fucking tanking Gyara's +1 Hyper Beam, what a beast.
Worth nothing that there is a chance for a sweep if you can find a safe space to get +2 Attack (cough*Ludicolo*cough)
Conclusion: C grade I reckon, maybe even B, decent individual performance and strong hit and run numbers.
Mightyena: tl;dr not strong or fast enough to do anything of note here but still surprisingly bulky enough to take a couple of hits. Can't do much more than the occasional chip damage off of a Dig onto Tentacruel or a Strength on Whiscash though. Surf is too much from Ludicolo to be able to set up on.
Conclusion: F grade, low stats are finally too much.
Vileplume: Wailord for some reason likes to Rain Dance turn 1, you live a Blizzard anyway, have Sleep Powder, and 2HKO with Petal Dance, A+ matchup. Against Milotic Ice Beam will 2HKO, petal Dance is a 4HKO after Sitrus so its a bad matchup but winnable with Sleep Powder and a Potion as your 3rd Petal Dance won't proc a Full Restore. Tentacruel is not a good matchup but surprisingly cannot 2HKO you so you are able to Sleep Powder tank it comfortably and might be able to 5HKO with Petal Dance, though you're better off team healing here. Ludicolo gets fucking dunked on by Sludge Bomb. Whiscash isn't as good as it seems as its bulky to the point where Petal Dance is a roll to OHKO and its barel strong enough to roll for a 2HKO on Earthquake/Hyper Beam so if you miss the OHKO and it gets to Full Restore it can be unpleasant, still winning though because any Hyper Beam usage lets you play for free. Gyarados is a losing matchup unless you Potion spame and it doesn't DD, it's stronger than Whiscash and Petal Dance has similar rolls although Sludge Bomb should be a 4HKO so you can avoid locking in.
Conclusion: B grade, dumpsters Ludicolo and Wailord, beats Whiscash handily, and capable of beating Milotic and Tentacruel with potion support. Capable of beating Gyarados but needs Potion support and no DD usage.
Whiscash: 1v1s Wailord with even Potion usage as you outspeed to make Water Spout weak and Blizzard/Double-Edge don't hit hard. Lose to Ludicolo outright. Tentacruel is a win, you 2HKO with Earthquake and barely avoid a 2HKO from Hydro Pump. Enemy Whiscash is a coin flip of rolls, crits, potions, etc. Gyarados is a loss, Milotic you win with a Potion, Surf is a 3HKO but so is Earthquake and Earthquake gets the 3HKO after Sitrus pushes it out of Potion range.
Conclusion: Two potion supported wins, one clean win, two losses, and one tie. Straightforward C grade.
Canon run:
Vileplume does Vileplume things and cleanly kills Wailord.
Milotic comes in, I leave Plume in and then switch to Solrock and back and back to Solrock to burn the Rain as Solrock dies, send in Whiscash, trade a Surf for an Earthquake, Milotic is switched for Ludicolo.
Switch for Dodrio, eat a Giga Drain, Tri Attack clean 2HKOs after tanking a Surf.
Tentacruel next, back to Whiscash, Toxic for Earthquake, burn three of his Full Restores before using my own, Surf to finish it off tanking a Hydro Pump and an Ice Beam.
Enemy Whiscash appears met by Vileplume, Sleep Powder on the Amnesia, Sludge Bomb for chip out of damage range hell and Petal Dance for the 2HKO, tanking nothing.
Milotic returns, met by Kadabra, I Hyper Potion Whiscash as he Recovers, Calm Mind is met by Surf and Psychic does 35-40% as he KOs Kadabra, Whiscash comes in and is met by a Toxic, a short war of attrition leads to Whiscash fainting as I sed a Leppa Berry, Dodrio comes in on a 25% Milotic and blows it away.
Gyarados up last, met by Mightyena, he DDs twice as I heal Dodrio and Revive Vileplume then kills Mightyena with a Hyper Beam, Dodrio comes in and Tri Attacks Gyara to 40%, Gyara OHKOs with Hyper Beam, I send out Vileplume and Revive Kadabra, Gyara OHKOs with Hyper Beam, Kadabra comes out and finishes the recharging Gyarados off with Shock Wave.
or
Where's Wallace(do)?
Kadabra: Shock Wave off the drop does about 35% and makes Water Spout barely liveable, sacced Mightyena to get in and then was able to get a Calm Mind up, -1 Double-Edge is a clean 2HKO though so I had to KO immediately with a second Shock Wave. Tentacruel was next and with Sludge Bomb heal spamming wouldn't work but Kadabra was able to outspeed and OHKO with a crit Psychic. Ludiclo then came in and provided an opporunity to set up to +6 and +6 Shock Wave was able to 2HKO (Double Team etc). Whiscash was OHKOed by +6 Psychic, Gyarados by Shock Wave, and then Milotic merced me with a crit Surf when I went to heal.
On a re-roll, Psychic was able to deal only 90% to Tentacruel and it KOed the weakened Kadabra with Hydro Pump. Ludicolo can still be used as comfortable set-up fodder however, using Whiscash to kill Tenta and Revive up, but Leech Seed may prevent it from being able to sweep through everyone, 2x Surf+3 Seeds was sufficient to KO me.
In a different run I used a second Mightyena Intimidate to allow Kadabra to get to +2 on Wailord so that I would be able to test +6 Psychic on Milotic, this failed to OHKO dealing roughl 90% but the only recourse available was a failed Toxic.
Individually, Kadabra will get 2HKOed by Wailord without 2HKOing back, will 2HKO Tentacruel with Psychic but be OHKOed by Sludge Bomb in return, will use Ludicolo as set up fodder and win with 2 +6 Shock Waves, Whiscash has Amnesia and OHKOs with Earthquake while you only 3HKO back, barely loses Milotic surprisingly, Toxic and two +1 Psychics does enough for the Synchronized Poison to KO Milotic as it KOs you with a second Surf unless Sitrus pulls it ot of range, and Shock Wave 2HKOs Gyarados but loses to an Earthquake OHKO.
Conclusion: I think this is a B performance, Kadabra showed that it was capable of sweeping with some pitfalls (Leech Seed, crits, Toxic+Full Restores), but it required fairly significant team and potion support to do so and was incapable of beating any enemies except Ludicolo one on one.
Solrock: No.
Conclusion: No.
Dodrio: Wailord will OHKO you wit Blizzard but if it misses or after a Revive you do actually 2HKO with Tri Attack+Hyper Beam. Against Tentacruel you juuuust live an Ice Beam and are then able to 2HKO with Tri Attack+Hyper Beam (TA just misses the 2HKO on its own). Milotic is a no go, Ice Beam will OHKO and you don't 2HKO. vs Ludicolo you clean OHKO with Fly or 2HKO with Tri Attack, just have to not get accuracy haxed. Whiscash you 3HKO with Tri Attack, it 2HKOs back with Surf but also likes to use Amnesia first so you should win this. Against Gyarados you win if you aren't Intimidated and it goes for Surf t1 because Tri Attack+Hyper Beam will kill,
Worth nothing that there is a chance for a sweep if you can find a safe space to get +2 Attack (cough*Ludicolo*cough)
Conclusion: C grade I reckon, maybe even B, decent individual performance and strong hit and run numbers.
Mightyena: tl;dr not strong or fast enough to do anything of note here but still surprisingly bulky enough to take a couple of hits. Can't do much more than the occasional chip damage off of a Dig onto Tentacruel or a Strength on Whiscash though. Surf is too much from Ludicolo to be able to set up on.
Conclusion: F grade, low stats are finally too much.
Vileplume: Wailord for some reason likes to Rain Dance turn 1, you live a Blizzard anyway, have Sleep Powder, and 2HKO with Petal Dance, A+ matchup. Against Milotic Ice Beam will 2HKO, petal Dance is a 4HKO after Sitrus so its a bad matchup but winnable with Sleep Powder and a Potion as your 3rd Petal Dance won't proc a Full Restore. Tentacruel is not a good matchup but surprisingly cannot 2HKO you so you are able to Sleep Powder tank it comfortably and might be able to 5HKO with Petal Dance, though you're better off team healing here. Ludicolo gets fucking dunked on by Sludge Bomb. Whiscash isn't as good as it seems as its bulky to the point where Petal Dance is a roll to OHKO and its barel strong enough to roll for a 2HKO on Earthquake/Hyper Beam so if you miss the OHKO and it gets to Full Restore it can be unpleasant, still winning though because any Hyper Beam usage lets you play for free. Gyarados is a losing matchup unless you Potion spame and it doesn't DD, it's stronger than Whiscash and Petal Dance has similar rolls although Sludge Bomb should be a 4HKO so you can avoid locking in.
Conclusion: B grade, dumpsters Ludicolo and Wailord, beats Whiscash handily, and capable of beating Milotic and Tentacruel with potion support. Capable of beating Gyarados but needs Potion support and no DD usage.
Whiscash: 1v1s Wailord with even Potion usage as you outspeed to make Water Spout weak and Blizzard/Double-Edge don't hit hard. Lose to Ludicolo outright. Tentacruel is a win, you 2HKO with Earthquake and barely avoid a 2HKO from Hydro Pump. Enemy Whiscash is a coin flip of rolls, crits, potions, etc. Gyarados is a loss, Milotic you win with a Potion, Surf is a 3HKO but so is Earthquake and Earthquake gets the 3HKO after Sitrus pushes it out of Potion range.
Conclusion: Two potion supported wins, one clean win, two losses, and one tie. Straightforward C grade.
Canon run:
Vileplume does Vileplume things and cleanly kills Wailord.
Milotic comes in, I leave Plume in and then switch to Solrock and back and back to Solrock to burn the Rain as Solrock dies, send in Whiscash, trade a Surf for an Earthquake, Milotic is switched for Ludicolo.
Switch for Dodrio, eat a Giga Drain, Tri Attack clean 2HKOs after tanking a Surf.
Tentacruel next, back to Whiscash, Toxic for Earthquake, burn three of his Full Restores before using my own, Surf to finish it off tanking a Hydro Pump and an Ice Beam.
Enemy Whiscash appears met by Vileplume, Sleep Powder on the Amnesia, Sludge Bomb for chip out of damage range hell and Petal Dance for the 2HKO, tanking nothing.
Milotic returns, met by Kadabra, I Hyper Potion Whiscash as he Recovers, Calm Mind is met by Surf and Psychic does 35-40% as he KOs Kadabra, Whiscash comes in and is met by a Toxic, a short war of attrition leads to Whiscash fainting as I sed a Leppa Berry, Dodrio comes in on a 25% Milotic and blows it away.
Gyarados up last, met by Mightyena, he DDs twice as I heal Dodrio and Revive Vileplume then kills Mightyena with a Hyper Beam, Dodrio comes in and Tri Attacks Gyara to 40%, Gyara OHKOs with Hyper Beam, I send out Vileplume and Revive Kadabra, Gyara OHKOs with Hyper Beam, Kadabra comes out and finishes the recharging Gyarados off with Shock Wave.
If you've been following to this point you should already know what I think of where each of these should be ranked, I'll formally justify a placing if requested when I'm not on mobile.
Whiscash: move to B tier
Dodrio: move to C tier
Kadabra / Abra (no trade): drop to B tier
Mightyena: rise to D tier
Vileplume: rise to B tier
Solrock: drop to E tier
The final stats/pool after beating Wallace:
Vileplume lv 49, Gentle nature, Chlorophyll
147 / 91 / 88 / 117 / 118 / 71
Sludge Bomb, Petal Dance, Sleep Powder, Moonlight
Solrock lv 48, Hardy nature, Levitate
129 / 113 / 99 / 73 / 77 / 83
Rock Slide, Psychic, Earthquake, Overheat
Dodrio lv 49, Adamant nature, Early Bird
134 / 139 / 75 / 66 / 72 / 120
Tri Attack, Fly, Steel Wing, Hyper Beam
Mightyena lv 49, Lonely nature, Intimidate
141 / 115 / 85 / 80 / 67 / 86
Strength, Shadow Ball, Dig, Howl
Kadabra lv 48, Naughty nature, Synchronize
116 / 53 / 39 / 134 / 77 / 118
Psychic, Calm Mind, Shock Wave, Recover
Whiscash lv 50, Naughty nature, Oblivious
192 / 108 / 97 / 98 / 87 / 87
Surf, Earthquake, Ice Beam, Waterfall
Whiscash: move to B tier
Dodrio: move to C tier
Kadabra / Abra (no trade): drop to B tier
Mightyena: rise to D tier
Vileplume: rise to B tier
Solrock: drop to E tier
The final stats/pool after beating Wallace:
Vileplume lv 49, Gentle nature, Chlorophyll
147 / 91 / 88 / 117 / 118 / 71
Sludge Bomb, Petal Dance, Sleep Powder, Moonlight
Solrock lv 48, Hardy nature, Levitate
129 / 113 / 99 / 73 / 77 / 83
Rock Slide, Psychic, Earthquake, Overheat
Dodrio lv 49, Adamant nature, Early Bird
134 / 139 / 75 / 66 / 72 / 120
Tri Attack, Fly, Steel Wing, Hyper Beam
Mightyena lv 49, Lonely nature, Intimidate
141 / 115 / 85 / 80 / 67 / 86
Strength, Shadow Ball, Dig, Howl
Kadabra lv 48, Naughty nature, Synchronize
116 / 53 / 39 / 134 / 77 / 118
Psychic, Calm Mind, Shock Wave, Recover
Whiscash lv 50, Naughty nature, Oblivious
192 / 108 / 97 / 98 / 87 / 87
Surf, Earthquake, Ice Beam, Waterfall
Last edited:
Kadabra is kind of useless against the Elite 4, and I agree that it's probably not 2 tiers above Vileplume and Whiscash. But are you sure you want to put all of them in the same tier? For almost half of the game, Kadabra was ripping apart regular trainers while Gloom was ripping apart less trainers and Whiscash was completely non-existent.
For reference of things specifically threatening
Kadabra really just shit the bed at the most important point of the game. Ripping apart the early and middle game is super valuable and a big reason why I had it A rated for so long but falling apart against Tate and Liza and tanking the E4 is a severe, severe penalty. Only Juan is favourable for it in the entire end game. Anything else in A tier has the ability to be capable or strong against one or more members of the E4, Kadabra really doesn't measure up against anything else there, clearly below Gardevoir, Sceptile, Breloom, et al.
I don't think Whiscash or Vileplume are arguable as Bs at this point, their performance as I've documented it speaks for itself. Whiscash had some incredible bulk and strong power to match it, straight up just a lesser version of the best pokemon available in Swampert, and Vileplume had some awesome utility supporting its general ability to truck favourable matchups and still compete in poor matchups.
Last edited:
Slakoth to C
Slakoth is stuck with a bad ability, and its type makes it mostly useless in the first 2 gyms. Still, its stats are decent enough to beat some trainers with cut, and it can use yawn to support teammates. After evolving and learning strength, Vigoroth becomes a great mid-game route cleaner. Even when it can't defeat an opponent by spamming strength, Vigoroth has options like yawn, encore, and bulk up. The final evolution has the highest base physical attack in the whole game. Even though truant isn't that great of an ability, players are allowed to play on shift mode, and truant turns are good for switching Pokemon or using potions. And Slaking's decent defenses usually let it stall out the extra turn just fine. (not evolving is also an option that leads to a pickup-less Linoone, which is probably by itself good enough for C tier) Truant prevents Slaking from completely sweeping gyms and the Elite 4, but its stats and STAB return are enough to tear big chunks from their teams, or at least do more damage than things like Crobat or Golem.
Slakoth is stuck with a bad ability, and its type makes it mostly useless in the first 2 gyms. Still, its stats are decent enough to beat some trainers with cut, and it can use yawn to support teammates. After evolving and learning strength, Vigoroth becomes a great mid-game route cleaner. Even when it can't defeat an opponent by spamming strength, Vigoroth has options like yawn, encore, and bulk up. The final evolution has the highest base physical attack in the whole game. Even though truant isn't that great of an ability, players are allowed to play on shift mode, and truant turns are good for switching Pokemon or using potions. And Slaking's decent defenses usually let it stall out the extra turn just fine. (not evolving is also an option that leads to a pickup-less Linoone, which is probably by itself good enough for C tier) Truant prevents Slaking from completely sweeping gyms and the Elite 4, but its stats and STAB return are enough to tear big chunks from their teams, or at least do more damage than things like Crobat or Golem.
I do think Golduck is better than the good rod Tentacruel, but Golduck should stay below old rod Tentacool. Yes, Tentacool's strongest attack is no-STAB cut for at least 9 levels, but it still starts pulling its own weight (and helps with Flannery) long before Psyduck becomes obtainable. And while the poison type makes Tentacruel worse against Tate and Liza and Phoebe, it's useful against just about every water type opponent after Lilycove (except maybe opposing Tentacools).
Moving Torchic to A has already been discussed. Basically those people said that Combusken can learn bulk up at level 28 and does much better against Winona and Juan if you use bulk up against their weakest Pokemon. Blaziken can also pretty easily outspeed and one-shot most of those water Pokemon with strong normal attacks, like strength or return. If you still think Torchic should be A tier, then you can read the earlier discussion and try using Torchic again.
Last edited:
Yeah I'm not convinced, especially with the bolded line; having unSTAB Cut and Thief as your best attacks until level 19 is just unacceptable. Basically all pre-Surf Tentacool really does is Bubblebeam Flannery to death, but anyone would be hard-pressed to say that putting up with the 15 level MINIMUM slog of dragging around Tentacool would be worth that alone, as it barely even beats route trainers effectively with lol 40 Atk Acid, much less do well against any of the other pre-Surf Gym Leaders. I daresay even Zubat's early-game is not this atrocious since at least it can outdamage Dewford's pure Fightings with Steel Wing >.<
Last edited:
Truant + Slow EXP Group does not sound like a fun time during early game. The only place to get Slakoth is Petalburg Woods, just before (or maybe after) the first Gym, so you're probably lugging it around unevolved until sometime after Watson. And its Gym matchups are shit during that part of the game.
Sounds too high-investment for a raise to me.
Okay so I won't spend much time on this update, but I fought Norman and I'll just quickly state the results.
Shedinja despite being Ghost type struggled very hard against this gym and Norman himself do to most of the trainers packing dark coverage (Primarily Faint Attack). Against Norman the only poke he can safely deal with is Linoone. Slaking and Vigoroth both have Faint Attack and Shedinja's damage output against the former is horrible anyways. As for Spinda it doesn't have a way to directly damage Shedinja, but it has Teeter Dance and can confuse you causing you to die. Also setting up Double Team isn't an option because not only does Spinda usually switch out into Vigoroth, but Faint Attack ignores evasion. So overall a pretty lackluster performance for Shedinja in a gym you'd expect it to do well in. (D or E ranking).
Won't give much analysis for the rest of my team since it's probably quite obvious but the TLDR is that Grovyle sucked, Manectric provided valuable T-wave's and not much else, and Graveler hard carried thanks to its good defense.
Shedinja despite being Ghost type struggled very hard against this gym and Norman himself do to most of the trainers packing dark coverage (Primarily Faint Attack). Against Norman the only poke he can safely deal with is Linoone. Slaking and Vigoroth both have Faint Attack and Shedinja's damage output against the former is horrible anyways. As for Spinda it doesn't have a way to directly damage Shedinja, but it has Teeter Dance and can confuse you causing you to die. Also setting up Double Team isn't an option because not only does Spinda usually switch out into Vigoroth, but Faint Attack ignores evasion. So overall a pretty lackluster performance for Shedinja in a gym you'd expect it to do well in. (D or E ranking).
Won't give much analysis for the rest of my team since it's probably quite obvious but the TLDR is that Grovyle sucked, Manectric provided valuable T-wave's and not much else, and Graveler hard carried thanks to its good defense.
Slakoth can evolve before Wattson using about 1/3 of the experience between Wattson and the start of the game. A level 20 Vigoroth still can't 1v1 Wattson's Magneton or Manectric, but it's enough to sweep most of the other trainers around that part of the game. I get that giving 1/3 of your experience to a Slakoth is an annoying task, but Vigoroth's mid-game performance is better than several B tier Pokemon. Are 3 bad gym matchups really worth the difference between B tier and D tier?
Which it struggles to get without difficulty because Slakoth is very bad. It's not strong (making OHKOs rare and so turning them into 3 turn KOs or even 5 turn KOs), not particularly bulky, and is extremely slow. It's also of course stuck with only Normal type attacks.
It can deal with route trainers, but it's still not doing amazingly against most major battles. It's fairly strong but not amazingly so and it's *still* stuck with Strength and only Strength. Yes, yawn and encore help but Vigoroth isn't performing particularly well against Wattson or Flannery (remember that it's stuck using Cut still for Wattson!) due to its fairly bad special bulk. Fast, sure, but it's still not doing much in the ways of OHKOing anything but some of the frailer route trainers.
Not only is giving a full third of all available experience to a team member who contributes nothing to any major battles inefficient (because suddenly you're fighting every single available trainer), the Pokemon who Vigoroth outclasses in terms of midgame performance in B are all because said Pokemon only appear at the end of midgame/start of lategame, or because their lategame performance far exceeds that of Slaking, or because they're in B for reasons other than combat.
Absol, Carvanha, Chinchou, Heracross, Magnemite, and Staryu all have worse midgame performances than Vigoroth because they don't exist for much of lategame, but when they do appear (generally before Winona) they immediately start doing better and continue to do so for the rest of the game. Zigzagoon (RS) is Pickup and that is outstandingly better than Vigoroth.
Magikarp has a similar unpleasant early period, but in return is stronger than Vigoroth, much bulkier, and has drastically better gym matchups. It also of course has lategame HM utility and isn't restricted to hit and run tactics like Slaking, putting much less burden on the team. Machamp is so much stronger than Vigoroth and has much better Flannery and Norman matchups than Vigoroth. As Slaking it's vaguely comparable but Machamp has much more positive matchups in the lategame as opposed to Slaking. Electrike has a worse midgame but a much, much stronger lategame. Makuhita has both a better midgame and lategame. Marill you've talked about at length yourself, not even going into the HM utility. Swellow has a better midgame than Vigoroth, being faster, stronger, and able to hit things super effectively unlike Vigoroth. Tentacool has a somewhat worse midgame, though it can actually take on Flannery very effectively unlike Vigoroth and Tentacruel not only surpasses Vigoroth in terms of mid/lategame major battle matchups but also has fantastic HM utility. Wingull has a drastically better earlygame and an overall better midgame. Slaking is probably better combatwise lategame than Pelipper, but Pelipper has very strong HM utility and is still capable of contributing with more than just hit and run.
In C, most of the Pokemon available before midgame again have equal or better performances than Vigoroth overall and don't have nearly as painful a training period as Slakoth does with the exception of Zubat (who honestly I'd still say has a better time overall than Slakoth).
It's a lot of investment for a mediocre midgame and lategame payoff. The ability to dent things with hit and run tactics is what lets Slaking be D rank in the first place - if it wasn't as strong or was stuck as Vigoroth the entire game it would definitely be E rank.
First, I'm not sure how you guys play Pokemon, but I'm usually using 1 or 2 Pokemon until after Wattson. Giving most of my experience to my one other Pokemon and only a third to Slakoth seems like a reasonable thing to do.
Vigoroth also learns bulk up, which lets it sweep Flannery and Norman similarly to Hariyama and much better than Tentacool. It doesn't resist fire, but it's not like Slugma's overheat hurts that much.
How does Pelipper have a good mid-game when its best attack is water gun until it learns surf? And I think Vigoroth is not too much worse than Hariyama because it's faster, so it uses less potions and gives NPCs less chances to use annoying status moves.
Crobat probably does have a better end-game than Slaking, but Golbat's wing attack is weaker than Vigoroth's strength. And it has more weaknesses for the entire game. Zigzagoon and Oddish seem to be the only 2 other C tier Pokemon obtainable kind of early. Zigzagoon is better than Slakoth for most of the game, but Vigoroth's stats and defensive typing are much better than Gloom's.
Last edited:
I'm feeling kinda bored, so is there any particular Pokemon that need testing or a retest for their rankings?
Except Slakoth largely needs to be babied the whole way through because it is just that inefficient at killing things on its own, especially with its bad experience group and low catch level. This disparity only increases if someone trains more than 2 Pokemon at that point.
The thing about Bulk Up on Vigoroth is that it becomes a bit of a wasted move when it evolves into Slaking, since it becomes less efficient to boost, loaf, and attack as opposed to just using an X Atk and being able to attack immediately, not to mention Slaking becomes much less Potion-friendly in battle which sets back the Bulk Up and heal strategy.
Wingull can take out all of Roxanne's and Brawly's Gym bar their aces, while Pelipper has great matchups against Flannery and Norman, the latter it beats with Protect + Toxic of which it's one of the best users in the game. In my experiences in using Hariyama, it rarely actually needs more than one Hyper Potion to cleansweep a boss; heck, it rarely needs more than 2 Bulk Ups. Hariyama's low Speed and Potion reliance are only really highlighted against constant barrages of route trainers, but that aspect is comparatively less important for in-game viability.
Golbat is expected to reach the Crobat stage long before Vigoroth evolves, so it can bridge the gap in power more quickly. Gloom may be a weaker Pokemon than Vigoroth for the time being, but the payoff for Gloom is Chlorophyll SunnyBeam which has significantly better and faster sweeping potential than whatever Slaking can do.
Merritt
Name: Zubat
Availability: Granite Cave B2F, 30%, Levels 10-11.
Stats: Amazing Speed, good Attack and respectable bulk.
Typing: Typing grants many 4x resistances which help in the early game, but weaknesses to Psychic, Ice, and Rock become more pronounced towards the lategame.
Movepool: The Steel Wing TM is needed to let Zubat competently fight on its own until it learns Wing Attack, while the Sludge Bomb TM is mandatory to achieve maximum damage output. All other moves it learns are helpful but not necessary.
Major Battles: Zubat can take on Brawly and does decently at route sweeping, but otherwise has average to terrible matchups against all other bosses, usually faltering against their ace Pokemon. Crobat's role tends to be relegated to toss out fast and strong attacks that can beat weaker trainers or KO one/two of the boss's Pokemon, or potentially harassing tough opponents with its fast Confuse Ray.
- Status