Might've just replaced its spot internally. At the very least judging by the sprites it seems like the previous fire starter whose name I always forget was turned into Teddiursa.
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Pokemon Gold 1997 Prototype discovered: Many scrapped pokemon designs within
- Thread starter Tay26
- Start date
OK cool the website that was easily hosting all the sprites is back up and has the "scratchpad" sprites. https://gssource.neocities.org/scratchpad.html
So yeah this is just hotswapping whatever was in the slot previously. There's a number of those throughout such as....
Some others might have just been reference material.
This one is a scratchpad of ironing out Cyndaquil's design so it's referencing the old fire starter but it looks like they grabbed both front & back for rinrin possibly for color reference.
Or piloswine, which seems to be referencing Turban to imitate its shape.
Or Slugma which is referencing its beta self, turban and piloswine. This could also be a case of just reusing different "scratchpads".
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These scratch pads are also showing some other ideas they were having during the design process which is cool
Before landing on the final design, it seems Noctowl had another revision after spaceworld to keep it more in line with Hoothoot than it already was. Makes the complete 180 into a Realistic Owl all the crazier, really
Another Politoed design, I like this one more than spaceworld but the final design was the way to go for sure
Gligar's always resembled a Facehugger but this really emphasizes it even more. The bottom right corner just looks like a dragon quest sprite
Oh geez, another?! I thought we were done with the major leaks but this one is probably just below the Spaceworld Demo!
First off, thank you for translating!
Bayleef: More like Bayweed.
Joking aside, final version says it makes people feel energized so its sort of the opposite effect.Wobbuffet: So I guess that explains why Wobbuffet was missing from the SW97 demo! Now the tail having eyes makes so much sense, its essentially a leftover from when it was the prevo of Girafarig.
Shuckle: So Shuckle lived in a pot and made alcohol? Sounds like something someone would make drinking a whole pot of alcohol.
Dunsparce: Geez, Dunsparce was a killer! Wonder what made them do a 180 with a few of these descriptions.
Scizor: Wha? Such an odd dex. Has it been changed to Bug/Steel yet because SW97 Scizor was still Bug/Flying and green colored like Scyther. Maybe this dex entry is a holdover from that design which I could maybe see being a fisheater.
Corsola: Huh, so originally it was preyed upon by Staryu, so even as early as Gen II they were thinking of a sea star that preyed upon Corsola.
Skarmory: Final version its the thorns of the branches its nest are made off that turns it to a Steel-type which I feel is a better reason.
Houndoom: So they go out of their way to explain the bone is just hardened skin, none of Houndour or Houndoom's dex entry (after a quick search for "bone") even mention it having what looks to be external bones.
Kingdra: Somewhere along the line this turns to hiding using whirlpools creates from its yawns. Wonder what caused the change?
Suicune: Its species was the "Milky Way Pokemon"? Odd, I never thought about it but it's supposed to be an incarnation of the "northern" wind yet its Water-type and called the Aurora Pokemon, and now it was originally related to space. I wonder if the story they were reincarnated Pokemon who perished in the burning of the Brass Tower was a thing or the three are based on different origins.
Tyranitar: Use your head!
Ledian: Now I'm just imagining a petty office argument about the number of "stars" they want to give it. "It'll be the 7 star Pokemon and have 7 stars on its back, like the Big Dipper!" "Having to make sure it has seven stars on its back can get annoying, let's just make it like 3" "3 is boring, but 7 is a bit much, let's go in the middle and make it 5 like how there's 5 points" "About that, can we just make them circles in a vague star-shape? It would look more natural"
Feraligatr: Maybe same reason bears stand up on its hind legs even though it walks on four: to look intimidating.
Forretress: Was Forretress always a Steel-type? This description makes it sound like it was originally a Grass-type.
Sneasel: Yet it looks like it has claws, even in its SW97 demo sprite. I wonder if there's an even earlier design where it has finger stubs the claws came out of?
Misdreavus: Wait, I thought the concept evolution for the straw voodoo doll was the one based on the Chinese hopping zombie?
Espeon: And I guess the bottom hair tufts it has underneath its ears are what's left of that design choice, interesting.
Ledian: So does that mean we can make it Bug/Fighting now and change its stats to be a Physical Ribombee (60/95/70/55/60/124//464)?
I'll take a closer look at the sprites later cause that itself is a whole can of worms!
He meant the facehugger Gligar.
I said bottom right, not bottom left.
It's facing directly towards the "camera" and positioned just like a DQ sprite was
My B. I read "bottom" and thought "Animon looks kinda like a Dragon Quest slime".
The one in the right is the face it has when all opposing physical attackers are KOed.
By the way...
It's interesting to see we were about to have some precedent for Oshawott's line on having a starter go from bipedal to quadrupedal.
Ehh Blastoise's sprite does the same thing (even in the final game) and the other sprite in the batch is Feraligatr on 2 legs as usual.
breh
強いだね
Should note that "Milky Way" in Japanese is "Ama no gawa" - literally "river of the heavens" - which is maybe how the Water-type somehow got stuck with a space theme. How it went to auroras and the northern wind, frankly, I have literally no clue in hindsight, but maybe it's tied to the same thing as the concept evolved? idk
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Now that you've pointed it out I can see the associations.
You've got a space theme, Auroras are usually up against the night sky, that's close enough for msot people.
In terms of "the heavens" we also have the aurora/sky/heaven connection
The aurora are "northern lights" which would lead to "northern wind". I mean there's southern lights too but lets face it Northern Lights get all the attention.
And auroras are caused by solar winds, so that's another wind connection for the trip home.
Suicune's "cape" is also proabbly meant to evokve the milky way/aurora.
This is pretty neat. Mostly localization related, but the Japanese bug reports probably lend a lot of insight on what Gen 2 used to look like in development.
I took some screenshots of differences I noticed through a bit of gameplay in the earliest English Gold/Silver build. Most plot dialogue is untranslated, but there are still differences to be seen. A full text dump would be interesting.
In one of the Crystals, you OHKO everything and get boosted EXP.
EDIT: I don't have screenshots of it in action, but the clock change debug menu + HUD from Spaceworld still remains up to Crystal's debug menus with the same functionality.
Compare the final Crystal Debug notes with Spaceworld Debug menu.
I took some screenshots of differences I noticed through a bit of gameplay in the earliest English Gold/Silver build. Most plot dialogue is untranslated, but there are still differences to be seen. A full text dump would be interesting.
In one of the Crystals, you OHKO everything and get boosted EXP.
EDIT: I don't have screenshots of it in action, but the clock change debug menu + HUD from Spaceworld still remains up to Crystal's debug menus with the same functionality.
Compare the final Crystal Debug notes with Spaceworld Debug menu.
Attachments
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I dont see a mantine, thats just Wailmer
breh
強いだね
wait, where did this come from?
From my understanding, the full leak contains the source code of the GS + C localizations, with a lot of leftovers within. Among these, there were a ton of day to day ROM builds, and those screenshots are from the earliest one there (April 24, 2000). This + English Blue/Yellow source (earlier this month) are actually where Spaceworld 1997 and the "Red/Green" assets originated from, all part of a bigger picture.
Whoa...that Feraligatr sprite is awesome. It actually looks threatening instead of...kinda goofy.
Well that website may be down (again) but tcrf is ever so slowly starting to ducment things, starting with slight map tweaks from the 99 Spaceworld build and the release build & some localization builds
https://tcrf.net/Proto:Pokémon_Gold_and_Silver
With the most completed being the 99 Spaceworld vs Final map https://tcrf.net/Proto:Pokémon_Gold_and_Silver/Spaceworld_1999_Demo/Map_Differences
Most of these are minor touch ups, with a few new tiles thrown in, the most shocking change is
The Viridian Gym wasn't legos, it had a slightly different layout and used columns. The decision to use "legos" was always a little weird, the fact there was a poitn in development mere months from completion where it was an entirely different tile set they chose to throw out for legos makes it even weirder!
The elite four rooms also have some subtantial differences.
e: Oh they do have a run down of all the 99 build Pokemon designs, at least, including all the backsprites in one place and comparisons to final. The scrapped (pre?)97 mons havent been added yet.
https://tcrf.net/Proto:Pokémon_Gold_and_Silver
With the most completed being the 99 Spaceworld vs Final map https://tcrf.net/Proto:Pokémon_Gold_and_Silver/Spaceworld_1999_Demo/Map_Differences
Most of these are minor touch ups, with a few new tiles thrown in, the most shocking change is
The Viridian Gym wasn't legos, it had a slightly different layout and used columns. The decision to use "legos" was always a little weird, the fact there was a poitn in development mere months from completion where it was an entirely different tile set they chose to throw out for legos makes it even weirder!
The elite four rooms also have some subtantial differences.
e: Oh they do have a run down of all the 99 build Pokemon designs, at least, including all the backsprites in one place and comparisons to final. The scrapped (pre?)97 mons havent been added yet.
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Hmm, those tiles look kinda lego-y to me. What did the final version look like?Well that website may be down (again) but tcrf is ever so slowly starting to ducment things, starting with slight map tweaks from the 99 Spaceworld build and the release build & some localization builds
https://tcrf.net/Proto:Pokémon_Gold_and_Silver
With the most completed being the 99 Spaceworld vs Final map https://tcrf.net/Proto:Pokémon_Gold_and_Silver/Spaceworld_1999_Demo/Map_Differences
Most of these are minor touch ups, with a few new tiles thrown in, the most shocking change is
The Viridian Gym wasn't legos, it had a slightly different layout and used columns. The decision to use "legos" was always a little weird, the fact there was a poitn in development mere months from completion where it was an entirely different tile set they chose to throw out for legos makes it even weirder!
The elite four rooms also have some subtantial differences.
Oh. I see. Yeah, that's... that's legos all right.
And I think it explains why Feraligatr is so huge for a starter.
The only other two starters that are over 2 metres in height are Serperior (a snake, so it's justified) and Venusaur (who has a giant flower on its back).
Plague von Karma
Banned deucer.
I mined the "GS_Korean" Source Code for stats and managed to form a spreadsheet for it. There's a lot of interesting stuff in there, including some prototype Pokemon I believe aren't too known about. Many of these stats are unique and show a lot of interesting balancing changes. At one point, Lugia wasn't The Great Wall, but a terrifying special attacker.
I found a sprite for one prototype Pokemon and restored: Sanibougo, a beta Mamoswine. I found it by chance, and after some discussion with the TCRF Discord it is most definitely the cut evolution. Its stats were 100/80/120/60/120/20, unparalleled bulk. It was also Ice/Ground and only got Powder Snow at the time.
I found a sprite for one prototype Pokemon and restored: Sanibougo, a beta Mamoswine. I found it by chance, and after some discussion with the TCRF Discord it is most definitely the cut evolution. Its stats were 100/80/120/60/120/20, unparalleled bulk. It was also Ice/Ground and only got Powder Snow at the time.
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PM2F_218.CBB | Restored Sprite w/Piloswine palette (56x56) |
I just wanna make sure everyone knows that Sanibougo is hecka chonker
some other notable things on the spreadsheet:
Scizor, Heracross, and Plux (Pinsir evo) all had ridiculously high stats, Scizor wasn't a Steel-type and Heracross wasn't a fighting-type
Norowara and Kyonpan had a Scyther/Scizor dynamic where they had the same base stat total but it was arranged differently, norowara was a slow frail mixed attacker while Kyonpan's stats were more balanced.
Teddiursa and Ursaring were entirely different pokemon, they're listed as Electric-types with an entirely different stat spread, It's possible that these are actually the stats for Kotora and Raitora?
Most Johto pokemon were buffed by release overall, several Kanto Pokemon were significantly nerfed by release, including Gyarados, Cloyster, Tauros, and Rhydon.
Tyrogue had actual stats instead of just having 35s across the board
Steelix had an entirely different stat spread that was more similar to Onix's
Shuckle was Rock/Ground and part of an evolutionary line with completely different stats.
Girafarig was a 3 stage normal/ghost line at this point with a very alien stat spread compared to what we actually got.
Bellsprout line's split evolution just seems like an objectively better version of Victreebel with higher offenses in exchange for defenses and only a small amount of speed.
Now, for a hypothesis
I personally think that the little ice-types from the spaceworld demo Wolfman and Warwolf were incorporated into Swinub and possibly Sneasel's designs later on. Swinub and Piloswine weren't in the 97 demo, and when they were added here Wolfman and Warwolf are nowhere to be found, i think it's very possible that gamefreak decided to just take the "pelt" the evolutionary line was wearing and make that the pokemon without the little creature wearing it. Sneasel was also a mono dark-type in the spaceworld demo iirc, with the Ice-type being added later on, i think the idea of a little mischief making Ice-type that the evo line had might've been incorporated into Sneasel's final design.
So, thoughts?
some other notable things on the spreadsheet:
Scizor, Heracross, and Plux (Pinsir evo) all had ridiculously high stats, Scizor wasn't a Steel-type and Heracross wasn't a fighting-type
Norowara and Kyonpan had a Scyther/Scizor dynamic where they had the same base stat total but it was arranged differently, norowara was a slow frail mixed attacker while Kyonpan's stats were more balanced.
Teddiursa and Ursaring were entirely different pokemon, they're listed as Electric-types with an entirely different stat spread, It's possible that these are actually the stats for Kotora and Raitora?
Most Johto pokemon were buffed by release overall, several Kanto Pokemon were significantly nerfed by release, including Gyarados, Cloyster, Tauros, and Rhydon.
Tyrogue had actual stats instead of just having 35s across the board
Steelix had an entirely different stat spread that was more similar to Onix's
Shuckle was Rock/Ground and part of an evolutionary line with completely different stats.
Girafarig was a 3 stage normal/ghost line at this point with a very alien stat spread compared to what we actually got.
Bellsprout line's split evolution just seems like an objectively better version of Victreebel with higher offenses in exchange for defenses and only a small amount of speed.
Now, for a hypothesis
I personally think that the little ice-types from the spaceworld demo Wolfman and Warwolf were incorporated into Swinub and possibly Sneasel's designs later on. Swinub and Piloswine weren't in the 97 demo, and when they were added here Wolfman and Warwolf are nowhere to be found, i think it's very possible that gamefreak decided to just take the "pelt" the evolutionary line was wearing and make that the pokemon without the little creature wearing it. Sneasel was also a mono dark-type in the spaceworld demo iirc, with the Ice-type being added later on, i think the idea of a little mischief making Ice-type that the evo line had might've been incorporated into Sneasel's final design.
So, thoughts?
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It's funny to see that Delibird had even WORSE stats during beta.
I wonder if the change in stat distribution for Lugia was to make it stand out from Mewtwo, because the only difference between their distributions is that their HP and Speed stats are swapped.
Mewtwo: 106/110/90/154/90/130
Beta Lugia: 130/110/90/154/90/106
I wonder if the change in stat distribution for Lugia was to make it stand out from Mewtwo, because the only difference between their distributions is that their HP and Speed stats are swapped.
Mewtwo: 106/110/90/154/90/130
Beta Lugia: 130/110/90/154/90/106