Other OU Playstyle of the Week - Rain

[Toljik]

6. Has anyone else found Kingdra a little disappointing, at least compared to Kabutops? It isn't powerful enough to break walls on its own (Specsdra does NOT usually 2HKO Mega Venusaur, even after SR), gets hit hard by most forms of priority barring Bullet Punch, and lacks coverage. I've tried Dragon Dance and Specs and neither set is consistent. Admittedly, it's probably the best Swimmer outside of rain thanks to its solid Speed stat and defensive typing, but that isn't saying much.

Yes. Physical Kingdra was especially disappointing, because

1. Kingdra boosts with Dragon Dance.
2. Opponent sends in a Water resist.
3. Kingdra has to use Outrage or risk being unable to power through the opponent
4. Whether the opposing Water resist faints or not, the opponent sends in a Fairy or Steel type.
5. Kingdra faints.

If the opponent has an Azumarill, skip steps 3 and 4. I don't think a special Kingdra would change much. Water/Dragon isn't what it used to be.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

Not a huge fan of rain. It's good against HO but is too inconsistent against other types of teams for my taste.

I don't think I'm alone here. I have yet to see a rain team near the top of the ladder.

Well it's a good thing the ladder is saturated with Deosharp HO teams. And it's not bad against balanced either, cause only the bulkiest of stuff can live rain-boosted water attacks. As for stall, there's nothing stopping you from using Gothitelle or something.

I've only a seen a couple above 1700, but it's pretty much all I personally use now days and it is very good.

 

[effyouzion]

Well it's a good thing the ladder is saturated with Deosharp HO teams. And it's not bad against balanced either, cause only the bulkiest of stuff can live rain-boosted water attacks. As for stall, there's nothing stopping you from using Gothitelle or something.

I've only a seen a couple above 1700, but it's pretty much all I personally use now days and it is very good.

I don't know the usage stats but I doubt that deosharp teams compromise more than 30-40% of teams over 1760. That's not to say that you will only win 40% of your games with a rain team, if you're good you will definitely win 2/3 of your games, but that can be a frustratingly slow pace to climb the ladder with compared to other play styles. It's just not efficient.

Still good for counter teaming of course but I wouldn't rely on it.

Edit: 1760 usage stats has Deoxys-D under 8% usage, which means less than 8% of teams are deosharp. Seems low to me, but if that is true rain offense is hard countering less than 8% of teams. Definitely not worth it.

http://sim.smogon.com:8080/Stats/2014-04/ou-1760.0.txt

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

I don't know the usage stats but I doubt that deosharp teams compromise more than 30-40% of teams over 1760. That's not to say that you will only win 40% of your games with a rain team, if you're good you will definitely win 2/3 of your games, but that can be a frustratingly slow pace to climb the ladder with compared to other play styles. It's just not efficient.

Still good for counter teaming of course but I wouldn't rely on it.

Edit: 1760 usage stats has Deoxys-D under 8% usage, which means less than 8% of teams are deosharp. Seems low to me, but if that is true rain offense is hard countering less than 8% of teams. Definitely not worth it.

http://sim.smogon.com:8080/Stats/2014-04/ou-1760.0.txt

Uhhh I didn't say rain was only good against Deosharp. It's good against pretty much any offensive team and most balanced, too.

 

[effyouzion]

Uhhh I didn't say rain was only good against Deosharp. It's good against pretty much any offensive team and most balanced, too.

I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, that was my argument. I feel like rain is a great deosharp counter, but at a disadvantage against anything with mons bulky enough survive a Kabutops waterfall.

 

[Andrew]

I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, that was my argument. I feel like rain is a great deosharp counter, but at a disadvantage against anything with mons bulky enough survive a Kabutops waterfall.

Kabutops isn't the only end all of rain sweepers though...I've seen several excellent rain teams that don't have him, instead relying on Omastar, Tornadus-T, Azumarill, Crawdaunt, Scizor, Ludicolo and other mons that can help support or benefit from the rain. Saying that the only way rain can win is with a Kabutops sweep is like saying that the only way sand can win is with an Excadrill sweep which is simply not true. It's great if they can contribute, but you have five other mons that vary greatly, and there is definitely more option in mons that offensively benefit from rain than there is for sand. It's a great playstyle atm and I'm really looking forward to exploring it more.

 

[effyouzion]

Kabutops isn't the only end all of rain sweepers though...I've seen several excellent rain teams that don't have him, instead relying on Omastar, Tornadus-T, Azumarill, Crawdaunt, Scizor, Ludicolo and other mons that can help support or benefit from the rain. Saying that the only way rain can win is with a Kabutops sweep is like saying that the only way sand can win is with an Excadrill sweep which is simply not true. It's great if they can contribute, but you have five other mons that vary greatly, and there is definitely more option in mons that offensively benefit from rain than there is for sand. It's a great playstyle atm and I'm really looking forward to exploring it more.

So replace "Kabutops waterfall" in that sentence with "Torn-T Hurricane" or "Crawdaunt aqua jet" or whatever you feel like using. All these sweepers are relatively weak, fragile and slow. Trying to set up with them AND keep rain up for the extra power/speed that you need is an uphill battle against anything but the most fragile teams.

Excadrill + Tyranitar works because they're both good even when not relying on the weather. Politoed + X doesn't have that kind of synergy.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

All these sweepers are relatively weak, fragile and slow. Trying to set up with them AND keep rain up for the extra power/speed that you need is an uphill battle against anything but the most fragile teams.

First off, Rain-boosted water attacks are REALLY hard to take with anything but extremely bulky resists. Rain sweepers are anything but weak. I would also not say that it's very hard to keep rain up (unless your opponent has Y-zard, which Politoed hard counters anyway, or T-Tar who yes you should especially prepare for,) and most swift swimmers only need one round of seven turns of rain to lay waste to a reasonably weakened team.

252/0 Azumarill is 2HKOed by Kingdra's Specs Surf after rocks. 100/80 special bulk and resists, but it can't switch in. Kingdra itself has 75/95/95 bulk and two weaknesses (one of which is only ever used as STAB from things Kingdra can blow up with Draco Meteor/Dragon Pulse,) which is pretty good for an offensive mon. And with its ridiculous speed, it can invest in some HP.

The first post in this thread cited Keldeo as a problem for rain teams, but:

252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo in Rain: 140-166 (43.3 - 51.3%) -- 65.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo in Rain: 281-330 (86.9 - 102.1%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Can barely even switch into Kabutops, nor even check if Kabutops got a turn to boost. Kabtuops also has respectable 60/105 physical bulk (we won't talk about that SDef tho.) Also just a fun fact, Adamant Kabutops' Rain-boosted waterfalls hit slightly harder than Jolly Garchomp's Outrage.

And of course, no bulky waters are going to be able to take on Ludicolo.

And this is only mentioning Swift Swimmers, who are not the only mons rain teams use. They're certainly the scariest cause of how stupid fast they are, but they're better left as a win condition since they're the ones able to do the most damage in so few turns, and are the hardest to check. But rain also has:

-Crawdaunt: You do no switch into Crawdaunt under rain. You just can't. Banded Crawdaunt can 2HKO 252/252+ Mega Venusaur after rocks, which is absolutely insane. It has a chance to OHKO Azumarill after rocks, which is also really ridiculous. Pretty much only Chesnaught can hope to switch in but it has to be at absolutely full health to do so. You want to fuck stall? Use this. Or Gothitelle, but Gothitelle doesn't have Adaptability Aqua Jet which also gets boosted in rain. Slow and frail tho, but is not overly dependent on rain because it hits so hard anyway.
-Azumarill: Not so frail. Not so easy to wall in rain. Superpower nails Ferrothorn, Play Rough nails most bulky waters and grasses, so this just leaves Mega Venusaur and Amoonguss (and some really, really bulky water resists like Tangrowth.) Everything else is 2HKOed by CB set (Skarm takes 61.3 - 72.7%, for example.) As mentioned earlier in the thread, Belly Drum can wreck offensive teams. Also not so dependent on rain.
-Keldeo: Respectable bulk for an offensive mon and is also really fast. Has Secret Sword for Chansey of course, as well as Ferrothorn. This is, again, something that's not that dependent on rain, and can function without it.
-Electric types: Mega Ampharos is just a bit less bulky than your average wall, with a lot of useful resistances, and in rain it can freely spam Thunder, which hits like a ton of bricks off of its huge SpA plus it has Focus Blast for Ferrothorn. Mega Manectric isn't so bulky, but it's fast as balls and its Thunder hits like a smaller ton of bricks, but sadly its Fire moves (one of the reasons it's good in OU) are gimped in rain. Both of these have Volt Switch which is really good for regaining muhmentum.
-Steel Types: Fire weakness reduced/neutralized, blah blah. Ferrothorn is good to use as it counters most Azumarill and sets up hazards against Mega Venusaur.

Excadrill + Tyranitar works because they're both good even when not relying on the weather. Politoed + X doesn't have that kind of synergy.

Politoed is kind of ass I agree, but it's not that bad. Encore is trolly. And again, Rain has multiple things it can use that are not that reliant on having rain.

Excadrill is good, but this is mostly because it can run Scarf and Rapid Spin sets. Sand Rush sets with Quake/Slide/Head/Swords are not particularly good if Sandstorm is not up; don't kid yourself, Excadrill is as dependent on T-Tar as Swimmers are for rain setters, it's just that T-Tar is really good.

 

[effyouzion]

First off, Rain-boosted water attacks are REALLY hard to take with anything but extremely bulky resists. Rain sweepers are anything but weak. I would also not say that it's very hard to keep rain up (unless your opponent has Y-zard, which Politoed hard counters anyway, or T-Tar who yes you should especially prepare for,) and most swift swimmers only need one round of seven turns of rain to lay waste to a reasonably weakened team.

You only counter CharY if he's already mega evolved. If you lead with Politoed and he leads with an un evolved CharY, you're going to be playing catch up the whole game. And let's not forget that CharY can just switch out and come in later when you try to put up rain again.

CharY is a big cock block and I'm not buying any argument that he's easy for rain to handle. Your best defense against him is that people don't use him as much as they used to.

252/0 Azumarill is 2HKOed by Kingdra's Specs Surf after rocks. 100/80 special bulk and resists, but it can't switch in. Kingdra itself has 75/95/95 bulk and two weaknesses (one of which is only ever used as STAB from things Kingdra can blow up with Draco Meteor/Dragon Pulse,) which is pretty good for an offensive mon. And with its ridiculous speed, it can invest in some HP.

Azumarill isn't a defensive mon and won't be switching in. Azumarill will, however, force Kingdra out or get the revenge after 1 kill.

The first post in this thread cited Keldeo as a problem for rain teams, but:

252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo in Rain: 140-166 (43.3 - 51.3%) -- 65.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo in Rain: 281-330 (86.9 - 102.1%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Can barely even switch into Kabutops, nor even check if Kabutops got a turn to boost. Kabtuops also has respectable 60/105 physical bulk (we won't talk about that SDef tho.) Also just a fun fact, Adamant Kabutops' Rain-boosted waterfalls hit slightly harder than Jolly Garchomp's Outrage.

Again, nothing needs to switch in to Kabutops to stop his sweep. A simple revenge kill is all that's needed to remove your best sweeper.

Setting up +2 with Kabutops is not realistic against any type of team that would have a Keldeo. Only against defensive teams will you have time for that.

And of course, no bulky waters are going to be able to take on Ludicolo.

Talonflame can revenge Colo, and also every other sweeper you have bar Kabutops and Omastar.

And this is only mentioning Swift Swimmers, who are not the only mons rain teams use. They're certainly the scariest cause of how stupid fast they are, but they're better left as a win condition since they're the ones able to do the most damage in so few turns, and are the hardest to check. But rain also has:

-Crawdaunt: You do no switch into Crawdaunt under rain. You just can't. Banded Crawdaunt can 2HKO 252/252+ Mega Venusaur after rocks, which is absolutely insane. It has a chance to OHKO Azumarill after rocks, which is also really ridiculous. Pretty much only Chesnaught can hope to switch in but it has to be at absolutely full health to do so. You want to fuck stall? Use this. Or Gothitelle, but Gothitelle doesn't have Adaptability Aqua Jet which also gets boosted in rain. Slow and frail tho, but is not overly dependent on rain because it hits so hard anyway.

Crawdaunt is super frail and forced to spam aqua jet against anything with more than 209 speed. Rain boosted aqua jet is still weaker than a non-boosted waterfall, and even that doesn't KO everything in the world.

-Azumarill: Not so frail. Not so easy to wall in rain. Superpower nails Ferrothorn, Play Rough nails most bulky waters and grasses, so this just leaves Mega Venusaur and Amoonguss (and some really, really bulky water resists like Tangrowth.) Everything else is 2HKOed by CB set (Skarm takes 61.3 - 72.7%, for example.) As mentioned earlier in the thread, Belly Drum can wreck offensive teams. Also not so dependent on rain.

I actually like BD Azu on rain teams, but he is cock blocked hard by Ferrothorn. Other sets are pretty shit on rain teams because you benefit more from not switching and sacrificing your mons than you do from switching in and out like CB Azu likes to do.

-Keldeo: Respectable bulk for an offensive mon and is also really fast. Has Secret Sword for Chansey of course, as well as Ferrothorn. This is, again, something that's not that dependent on rain, and can function without it.

Good mon (with or without rain), but compounds Talonflame and Thundurus weaknesses that rain already has.

-Electric types: Mega Ampharos is just a bit less bulky than your average wall, with a lot of useful resistances, and in rain it can freely spam Thunder, which hits like a ton of bricks off of its huge SpA plus it has Focus Blast for Ferrothorn. Mega Manectric isn't so bulky, but it's fast as balls and its Thunder hits like a smaller ton of bricks, but sadly its Fire moves (one of the reasons it's good in OU) are gimped in rain. Both of these have Volt Switch which is really good for regaining muhmentum.

Mega Amph is too weak (agility sets) or too slow (non agility sets) to do much damage on rain teams. You need to be OHKOing things to succeed on rain, not 2hkoing.

-Steel Types: Fire weakness reduced/neutralized, blah blah. Ferrothorn is good to use as it counters most Azumarill and sets up hazards against Mega Venusaur.

Ferrothorn is terrible to use on rain because he kills momentum and wastes rain turns.

Politoed is kind of ass I agree, but it's not that bad. Encore is trolly. And again, Rain has multiple things it can use that are not that reliant on having rain.

Excadrill is good, but this is mostly because it can run Scarf and Rapid Spin sets. Sand Rush sets with Quake/Slide/Head/Swords are not particularly good if Sandstorm is not up; don't kid yourself, Excadrill is as dependent on T-Tar as Swimmers are for rain setters, it's just that T-Tar is really good.

Politoed is more than "kind of" ass. He kills momentum every time he comes in. You need him to have damp rock, but when he has damp rock he can't hit hard. Because of his okay bulk, he doesn't die in one hit to most attacks, meaning he's wasting precious turns of your rain doing nothing.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

You only counter CharY if he's already mega evolved. If you lead with Politoed and he leads with an un evolved CharY, you're going to be playing catch up the whole game. And let's not forget that CharY can just switch out and come in later when you try to put up rain again.

CharY is a big cock block and I'm not buying any argument that he's easy for rain to handle. Your best defense against him is that people don't use him as much as they used to.

You don't lead with Politoed, why would you do that. You lead with Deo-S or Tornadus or some shit, use Rain Dance as it MEvolves, and then it's forced to switch out because it can't do anything in rain. Furthermore, it can't really switch into anything, and if you get Stealth Rocks up it's not going to last very long.

Azumarill isn't a defensive mon and won't be switching in. Azumarill will, however, force Kingdra out or get the revenge after 1 kill.

Azumarill is about the bulkiest thing you're going to see on offensive teams (okay besides Deo-D,) which is why I used it as an example. And if you're using Ferrothorn (or Mawile, as I sometimes do) Azumarill isn't that huge an issue.

Again, nothing needs to switch in to Kabutops to stop his sweep. A simple revenge kill is all that's needed to remove your best sweeper.

So don't try to sweep when its checks are still there/not weakened enough. This is simple, and applies to every offensive archetype. And when's it's so fast and powerful in rain, only very specific things are going to be able to do that.

Setting up +2 with Kabutops is not realistic against any type of team that would have a Keldeo. Only against defensive teams will you have time for that.

Good mon (with or without rain), but compounds Talonflame and Thundurus weaknesses that rain already has.

Talonflame can revenge Colo, and also every other sweeper you have bar Kabutops and Omastar.

If Talonflame RKs anything on your team, Kabutops gets a free turn to set up. Given the kind of teams that usually run Talonflame, this is usually game over if enough turns of rain remain. I don't really care about Talonflame when you have a perfect check to it anyway.

Crawdaunt is super frail and forced to spam aqua jet against anything with more than 209 speed. Rain boosted aqua jet is still weaker than a non-boosted waterfall, and even that doesn't KO everything in the world.

It doesn't have to bulky when it's there to use against Stall. And Banded, Rain Boosted Aqua Jets do sort of hurt, so at least it's not useless against offensive teams; e.g. it can OHKO Thundurus.

I actually like BD Azu on rain teams, but he is cock blocked hard by Ferrothorn. Other sets are pretty shit on rain teams because you benefit more from not switching and sacrificing your mons than you do from switching in and out like CB Azu likes to do.

CB Azu is just an option you have against stall. The point is you can use Azumarill on a rain team, who is pretty bulky and provides some defensive capabilities.

Mega Amph is too weak (agility sets) or too slow (non agility sets) to do much damage on rain teams. You need to be OHKOing things to succeed on rain, not 2hkoing.

Literally the only difference between Agility sets and non-Agility sets is that you run Timid over Modest. With base 165 SpA and a 110 BP STAB move (usually you run Thunderbolt) this is really not that big of an issue, plus Mega Ampharos has the bulk and typing to afford a 2HKO and has perfect coverage from STABs+Focus Blast.

Ferrothorn is terrible to use on rain because he kills momentum and wastes rain turns.

Ferrothorn provides hazard support, takes care of Azumarill, is annoying with T-Wave, Leech Seed, Iron Barbs, etc. Defensive pokemon allow you to take hits if need be, which is good.

Politoed is more than "kind of" ass. He kills momentum every time he comes in. You need him to have damp rock, but when he has damp rock he can't hit hard. Because of his okay bulk, he doesn't die in one hit to most attacks, meaning he's wasting precious turns of your rain doing nothing.

Yes but he's a necessary evil. And again, Encore is not so bad, and can net a free switch in for your other mons. 14 turns of Rain (Rain Dance lead+Politoed sac) is usually enough, but Politoed can easily get 14 more if it has to, which is why it's good despite everything about it (except the ability) being mediocre.

 

[LightningLuxray]

Ok, not really sure what's going on in this thread atm, but I'll give my thoughts on Rain after having used it for a good amount of time.

Firstly, while Rain may seem like a really easy playstyle, it's actually quite hard. You need to know what to sac, when to sac it, and which Pokemon are going to be putting in the most work, even more so than standard Hyper Offensive teams. You need to say to yourself "Oh, I can see that Pokemon X wallbreaks really easily while I can use Pokemon Y to clean late-game, and as such I can safely sac Pokemon A, B, and C if need be." This is mainly due to the frail nature of Rain teams, making it hard to find switch-in opportunities a lot of the time. Another thing that I faced a lot of was hax. While hax is always prominent in games, I feel it's the worse with Rain. Just one Hydro Pump, Stone Edge, or non-Rain Hurricane/Thunder miss, and you could have just lost one of your most important win conditions. A critical hit on the likes of Mega Ampharos can make it a dead weight, and as such can cost you the game. Maybe I'm just unlucky, but I had a ton of trouble getting past ~1600 due to how many times I was fucking missing moves (Just thinking about it makes me irritated!)

I've also noticed that the Rain archtype seems to be something along the lines of this: Politoed / Rain Wallbreaker / Rain Sweeper-Cleaner / Electric-type / Flying-type / Secondary Rain setter. For example, I used Politoed / Kingdra / Kabutops / Mega Manetric / Tornadus-T / Deoxys-S, as well as Politoed / Ludicolo / Mega Gyarados / Thundurs-T / Tornadus-T / something else I can't remember x_x, though I've seen Pokemon such as Omastar, Tornadus-I, Mega Ampharos, and even Pokemon such as Seismitoed take on these roles. This allows Rain to be a diverse playstyle that can easily utilize plenty of underrated threats that people just don't even consider when building a team.

Overall, while hax is a bitch, I seriously love Rain offense a whole lot. Maybe it's just some slight Gen 5 nostalgia, but weather has always been some of my favorite playstyles to this date, with Rain being especially fun and exciting.

 

[effyouzion]

<snip>

We could argue details for days and get nowhere. I still think rain is too inconsistent for ladder play and I don't see any evidence otherwise. You have specific threats for specific situations, but you can't ever use them all when 2 of your team slots are dedicated to setting rain and not much else.

 

[escarlata]

Rain may not usually have slot for it, but one often overlooked Pokemon that I've been running quite extensively in rain is Qwilfish. While it does not hit as hard as Kabutops, Poison STAB allows it to easily muscle past Keldeo, Chesnaught, Unaware Clefable, as well as getting revenged killed less easily by Azumarill and Breloom. The added speed is another boon for it, allowing it to outspeed stuff like Scarf Keldeo, Scarf Terrakion etc. Destiny Bond and Taunt are well, of course, Destiny Bond and Taunt, which are really useful to screw with stall or stuff that you can't outright KO. Finally, it has Spikes and Thunder Wave for useful support moves.

Qwilfish @ Life Orb / Focus Sash
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 HP / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Waterfall
- Poison Jab
- Swords Dance/Taunt/Spikes
- Destiny Bond/Taunt/Thunder Wave

Relevant Calcs

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 329-387 (101.8 - 119.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 377-447 (99.2 - 117.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Clefable: 265-315 (67.2 - 79.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Kabutops stand 0 chance against the former 2 while Quilfish cleanly OHKOs them. While Kabutops also can 2HKO Clefable in the rain with waterfall, Clefable can stall out the rain easily, and 2HKO with Moonblast. Qwilfish however, cleanly 2HKOs even if Clefable uses Cosmic Power, and takes a pittance from Moonblast.

252 Atk Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kabutops: 188-224 (71.7 - 85.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kabutops in Rain: 172-204 (65.6 - 77.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Qwilfish: 63-74 (23.1 - 27.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Qwilfish in Rain: 114-135 (41.9 - 49.6%) -- 87.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 725-853 (179.4 - 211.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Poison Jab vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 725-853 (276.7 - 325.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Azumarill and Breloom both easily KOs Kabutops with a bit of Life Orb recoil, while Qwilfish beats both safely.

I'm obviously in no way saying that Qwilfish is superior to Kabutops, but it is a really criminally underrated threat that destroys stuff that usually trouble Kabutops, that they make a good rain sweeping duo.

 

[X5Dragon]

5. I know the OU analysis for Omastar has some suboptimal White Herb Shell Smash set, but that set is terrible because Omastar rarely finds opportunities to set up and often doesn't need to anyway. Specs Omastar breaks physically defensive Venusaur and Ferrothorn in two hits and forces Chansey to recover or suffer the 3HKO (potentially giving Gothitelle an easy switch). It's sickeningly strong. Life Orb sets with a hazard can work too. TL;DR Omastar doesn't need the power from a Shell Smash...I would consider running another Swimmer with this since it is outsped by scarfers, yet can handle Talonflame for Ludicolo/Kingdra.

Glad to see fanboys of that set. Just to elaborate on it a bit:

Omastar (Helix) @ Choice Specs
EV: 228 Speed, 252 SpA, 28 HP
Modest
Ability: Swift Swim

-Hydro Pump
-Scald/Surf
-Ice Beam
-Earth Power/Ancient Power/HP Grass

Outspeeds every non-scarved pokemon in OU bar Deoxys-S with Swift Swim, has a solid movepool, and with a Choice Specs and Rain he proceeds to murder everything, there is simply no switching in against this dude:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Greninja in Rain: 269-317 (94 - 110.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield in Rain: 286-337 (88.2 - 104%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon in Rain: 244-288 (61.9 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios in Rain: 187-221 (61.9 - 73.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W in Rain: 191-225 (62.8 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo in Rain: 221-261 (68.4 - 80.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ferrothorn in Rain: 179-211 (50.8 - 59.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur in Rain: 174-204 (47.8 - 56%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Rain: 261-307 (37 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock


He also has a base 125 defense stat and a Water/Rock typing that allows it to take priority very well:

252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Omastar: 88-104 (31.2 - 36.8%) -- 73.6% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Omastar in Rain: 100-118 (35.4 - 41.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Omastar: 149-177 (52.8 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[Tesung]

We could argue details for days and get nowhere. I still think rain is too inconsistent for ladder play and I don't see any evidence otherwise. You have specific threats for specific situations, but you can't ever use them all when 2 of your team slots are dedicated to setting rain and not much else.

I peaked firs with rain but I only a have the screenshot of second:(. I also won an spl match, multiple smogon tour games, and a few tourney games with it. It's a really scary playstyle, that is impossible for most offense archetypes to handle and difficult for stall if you build well

Anyways there are two ways to go with it, hyper offense or bulky offense. Hyper offense, the playstyle I kinda created/popularized, is politoed of course, probly a deoxys s also something else could work, and 2 swift swimmers in my opinion, so you can play riskier with one (eg letting it weaken keldeo or take a thundurus para). I then think the key is to have a couple of threats that don't rely on rain and also can check things that give the team problems. I used kyurem b and scizor, which can break stall and just work really well with my core respectively. I will explain more in the rmt if I'm ever not lazy enough

Other random thoughts aqua jet used to be good on kabutops before ferro became a thing, although it's still nice for sucker punchers, talon, shit outside of rain, etc

Kingdra is really good, just don't rely on it to break stall! It hits really hard and is the worst mon for offense to handle, with it's bulk and sheer power, eg 2hkoing some ferro. It is also the best keld check you can have in a swift swimmer (besides ludicolo I guEss). Specs is the superior set, you don't need to predict just click water

 

[effyouzion]

I peaked firs with rain but I only a have the screenshot of second:(. I also won an spl match, multiple smogon tour games, and a few tourney games with it. It's a really scary playstyle, that is impossible for most offense archetypes to handle and difficult for stall if you build well

Anyways there are two ways to go with it, hyper offense or bulky offense. Hyper offense, the playstyle I kinda created/popularized, is politoed of course, probly a deoxys s also something else could work, and 2 swift swimmers in my opinion, so you can play riskier with one (eg letting it weaken keldeo or take a thundurus para). I then think the key is to have a couple of threats that don't rely on rain and also can check things that give the team problems. I used kyurem b and scizor, which can break stall and just work really well with my core respectively. I will explain more in the rmt if I'm ever not lazy enough

Other random thoughts aqua jet used to be good on kabutops before ferro became a thing, although it's still nice for sucker punchers, talon, shit outside of rain, etc

Kingdra is really good, just don't rely on it to break stall! It hits really hard and is the worst mon for offense to handle, with it's bulk and sheer power, eg 2hkoing some ferro. It is also the best keld check you can have in a swift swimmer (besides ludicolo I guEss). Specs is the superior set, you don't need to predict just click water

This is more helpful for discussion

What was your win/loss ratio and rating when you peaked?

 

[Tesung]

My rating was mid 2100s I think and my win loss ratio was around 4-1, I don't remember it was a month ago

 

[effyouzion]

My rating was mid 2100s I think and my win loss ratio was around 4-1, I don't remember it was a month ago

Thought you took a picture?

Anyway 4:1 isn't bad, but I question whether you can consistently do that with a rain team. You may have just got good match ups on your way to the top and that kind of success is unsustainable.

 

[Nog]

he played in SPL this season and did well in a ton of smogon tours. I don't doubt that he can consistently do well against less than stellar ladder players man.

 

[effyouzion]

he played in SPL this season and did well in a ton of smogon tours. I don't doubt that he can consistently do well against less than stellar ladder players man.

No disrespect to him personally, I doubt anyone could sustain that success with this type of play style. Tournaments are different b/c you might generally know what other people are using.

I was over 1850 with Shedinja, doesn't mean Shedinja is good for laddering.

 

[Clair]

Oh god... effyouzion, here's what your argument boils down to:

1. Rain isn't good enough to be consistent on ladder
2. No one has any evidence that it is

(Tesung presents you with evidence)

3. His evidence is irrelevant, because rain just isn't good enough to be consistent on ladder

 

[effyouzion]

Oh god... effyouzion, here's what your argument boils down to:

1. Rain isn't good enough to be consistent on ladder
2. No one has any evidence that it is

(Tesung presents you with evidence)

3. His evidence is irrelevant, because rain just isn't good enough to be consistent on ladder

1 player getting high on the ladder (who did not post his pics that he mentioned he had, but whatever, I'll believe him) is not "evidence," that's called an "outlier." Huge difference.

Again, no disrespect to him, he's clearly a fantastic player.

 

[sugarhigh]

I laddered with tesung fgt rain team he gave me. The team really depends on how the ladder is that day. If there's more normal sht like deosharp rain is going to plow through. But if it's like stall or bp not going to do very well :(. Anyways rain is honestly super easy to ladder with can get u to top ten as long as u hit hydros. Also for those who think rain is not consistent ure rite but it'll still auto win against the most standard teams and fun af to use :).