ORAS UU Viability Ranking Thread M3 (READ POST #823)

[Pinkin Lark]

Using the argument like ''Ice Shard'' exist is complete senceless, Ice Shard does exist in UU no shit but does it make Salamence less viable ? No. You can simply just pair it up with a Pokemon that can take on these Pokemons easily.

You're right, Ice Shard as the lone argument is trash. So let's look at everything else.

- Can't really switch into most bulky waters. It's a grass type that can't even absorb Scalds safely due to it having to run physical attacks, and even then risks getting blown apart by an Ice Beam. And if you didn't notice, there's a lot of those.

- Tangrowth is just a better defensive mon. Torterra has a bit better special bulk, but its offset by its typing(as mentioned above), as well as giving up Regenerator. Even offensively, Tangrowth has a lot more options, such as Leaf Storm and Knock Off.

- It's speed tier isn't going to help much. Even if you run Max Jolly, you're beat by Adamant Mega-Pert outside of rain, and of course neutral gets beat by base 60s like Empoleon and P2. Am I getting redundant with "Ice coverage destroys Torterra" yet?

Yeah, Wood Hammer hurts like hell behind 109 Atk. Sure, Rock Polish lets you outspeed most of the tier if you set it up(Still beat by Ada MShark at +1, lol). But it's not worth tiering it.

 

[JuanchoTacorta]

The problem with Torterra is that Tangrowth just does it better. Tangrowth has more physical bulk and has way more options that are not actually mediocre (looking at you rock polish Torterra) Just becase something can do something doesn't mean it should. Listing double dance Torterra as an option is comparable to saying Automotize Doublade can be used. Tangrowth, along with better bulk, has a recoil less stab in Power whip more coverage with its sd sets and can run special sets as well. Tangrowth also has arguably one of the best abilities in the game in Regenerator. Furthermore, with ice shard flying around everywhere with Mega-Abomasnow and Mamoswine, Torterra will struggle to get going while performing any role, physically defensive or offensive. The only fathomable reason you would ever use it instead of tangrowth was if you desperately wanted an electric Immunity. We can't just put anything that moves into C rank because it has that one tiny thing that supposedly makes it viable even though there's a mon that outclasses it by a 99%.

Although I agree about Tangrowth being a better mon in general, I disagree almost everything else. Why is Rock Polish a mediocre set? Max speed Adamant is already enough to outspeed base 130 meanwhile jolly max Speed can outspeed many Scarfed mons incluiding Darmanitan, Krookodile, PZ, or Heracross, that's something Tangrowth would ever wish to do. I rather think Double Dance could be a good set having Grass/Ground as STAB moves, performing well vs HO and Stall, or just 1 set up and Stone Edge for flying mons. Also you said CB set is outclassed because Power Whip has no recoil, but have you checked it's coverage?

252 Atk Choice Band Torterra Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 348-410 (107.4 - 126.5%)
252 Atk Choice Band Tangrowth Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 220-260 (68.1 - 80.4%)
252 Atk Choice Band Torterra Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Empoleon: 476-564 (128.3 - 152%)
252 Atk Choice Band Tangrowth Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Empoleon: 300-354 (80.8 - 95.4%)
252 Atk Choice Band Torterra Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Mandibuzz: 274-324 (64.7 - 76.5%)
252 Atk Choice Band Tangrowth Rock Slide vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Mandibuzz: 194-230 (45.8 - 54.3%)

You guys are judging Torterra as a bulky Grass type when it's really a powerful wallbreaker with amazing dual STAB for UU. Sure is weak to scald due to being physical and Ground type but i will repeat this:

252+ Atk Life Orb Torterra Wood Hammer vs. 232 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 413-486 (78 - 91.8%)

Torterra will OHKO or weak it to 15% HP any bulky water that comes to his way before get scalded unless your name is Tentacruel. If Torterra gets burned but kills the Scald user its job is done. Btw Torterra always run max speed so that argument of being crippled by base 60s is completely senseless.

 

[empire370]

Pangoro from B to B+
I Feel this is being ignored so im nominating it again pangoro is a very good wallbreaker and can break almost any wall in uu. I know it faces competition with herracross do being bodied status but pangoro has a better offensive typing imo herracross cannot handle walls like florgres, amorastiss,gligar, and tentacruel as well as pangoro can. Also pangoro lacks a fire weakness.I do agree that it is not on heracross's level but it has enough niches to be b+ worthy imo, rise this thing.

 

[Nightingales]

Although I agree about Tangrowth being a better mon in general, I disagree almost everything else. Why is Rock Polish a mediocre set? Max speed Adamant is already enough to outspeed base 130 meanwhile jolly max Speed can outspeed many Scarfed mons incluiding Darmanitan, Krookodile, PZ, or Heracross, that's something Tangrowth would ever wish to do. I rather think Double Dance could be a good set having Grass/Ground as STAB moves, performing well vs HO and Stall, or just 1 set up and Stone Edge for flying mons. Also you said CB set is outclassed because Power Whip has no recoil, but have you checked it's coverage?

252 Atk Choice Band Torterra Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 348-410 (107.4 - 126.5%)
252 Atk Choice Band Tangrowth Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 220-260 (68.1 - 80.4%)
252 Atk Choice Band Torterra Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Empoleon: 476-564 (128.3 - 152%)
252 Atk Choice Band Tangrowth Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Empoleon: 300-354 (80.8 - 95.4%)
252 Atk Choice Band Torterra Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Mandibuzz: 274-324 (64.7 - 76.5%)
252 Atk Choice Band Tangrowth Rock Slide vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Mandibuzz: 194-230 (45.8 - 54.3%)

You guys are judging Torterra as a bulky Grass type when it's really a powerful wallbreaker with amazing dual STAB for UU. Sure is weak to scald due to being physical and Ground type but i will repeat this:


Torterra will OHKO or weak it to 15% HP any bulky water that comes to his way before get scalded unless your name is Tentacruel. If Torterra gets burned but kills the Scald user its job is done. Btw Torterra always run max speed so that argument of being crippled by base 60s is completely senseless.

One thing is that it's neutral to scald.

 

[Wish9]

Goodra from C to B- (possibly B?)
I don't see why Goodra is only C Rank instead of B-. It has a great typing, well distributed stats across the board including a HUGE amount of special defense, a solid ability in Sap Sipper, and a very good offensive movepool that allows it to cover many threats. While other Dragons such as Hydreigon and Salamence give Goodra competition, it still manages to do fairly well in the meta. Goodra acts as a very good hard hitting special tank when it holds either a Band or Specs. As far as reliable switch-ins go, there aren't many due to checks to the Specs set getting killed by the Band set and vice versa, the only true counter being Umbreon. Of course, Goodra also has flaws within its sub-par defense and below average speed along with no reliable recovery. Overall, I'd say its a solid B- mon since it's a threat if given the proper team support.

 

[Saria]

Alright people, time to stop posting massive images / gifs in every other post. They contribute nothing, clutter the thread and make this thread borderline unusable for mobile devices or people with slow internet.

If you want to use images to make your post pretty or whatever, just use the smogon / PS sprites; the urls are pretty easy

Replace ampharos with any pokemon name

http://www.smogon.com/dex/media/sprites/xy/ampharos-mega.gif

http://www.smogon.com/dex/media/sprites/xy/ampharos.gif

http://play.pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/bw/ampharos-mega.png

http://play.pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/bw/ampharos.png

(those 4 images combined are 1/10 the file size of some of the gifs posted in the last 3 pages)

 

[Schpoonman]

Goodra is impossibly easy to wear down, horribly vulnerable to status (outside of incredibly niche Rest Hydration sets, which have their own host of problems), and seriously lacking in power. Salamence gets by with its equal SpA because it has Roost, Defog, a Fighting resistance, Intimidate, and is considerably faster.

 

[YABO]

Goodra is impossibly easy to wear down, horribly vulnerable to status (outside of incredibly niche Rest Hydration sets, which have their own host of problems), and seriously lacking in power. Salamence gets by with its equal SpA because it has Roost, Defog, a Fighting resistance, Intimidate, and is considerably faster.

Actually I've used Goodra recently and while it does have ts set of problems, if you face a team that doesn't have blissey or Umbreon then you can really do some damage. I used a specs set that differentiated itself from the other dragons through its ability to tank through a lot of moves you wouldn't expect and fire back with super effective coverage. Also, the AV set has a stupid matchup advantage vs most offensive teams since it is pretty much impossible to take down in a single hit (pretty sure even stuff like LO Mence Draco had trouble knocking it out). This forces your opponent into a really awkward scenario where nothing can come in safely which more or less forces your opponent to sack. Not really arguing for either outcome here but Goodra deserves it's fair chance.

 

[Nightingales]

Alright, being super serious here, but. I'd like to nominate Delphox to C-Rank.

I'm going to be a bit long here, but more so for the sake of explaining. Delphox is a special attacking Fire/Psychic type for those of you that don't know, with stats of 75 HP, 69 Attack, 72 Defense, 114 Special Attack, 100 Special Defense, and 104 Speed.

Now, in UU, land of bulky waters, there's really two sets that can be run to do maximum damage to any team, and those are Calm Mind / Three Attacks and Specs or Scarf. (They're pretty much the same.)

That being said, it's mostly Fire Blast, Psyshock, and Grass Knot. While that leaves it walled by hydreigon dragons for the most part, and outsped by a lot of things that it really doesn't want to be outsped by, there's room for a fourth move, and to fix the glaring dragon issue, that could be the fourth move. If you have team support to handle that, you can run Calm Mind, and nuke the hell out of anything.

Also, a cool thing to remember is that even hitting 337 with Timid puts Delphox in a decent speed tier, outrunning most of the dragons it wants to, though at the cost of power.

Effectively, the Fox is a slower, slightly more powerful Infernape with a Psychic stab over Fighting stab priority. But it can still rip holes in opposing teams if played well, so I feel it would be nice to consider, even if no action's taken on it.

 

[kingmickey27]

252 Atk Choice Band Torterra Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 348-410 (107.4 - 126.5%)
252 Atk Choice Band Tangrowth Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 220-260 (68.1 - 80.4%)
252 Atk Choice Band Torterra Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Empoleon: 476-564 (128.3 - 152%)
252 Atk Choice Band Tangrowth Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Empoleon: 300-354 (80.8 - 95.4%)
252 Atk Choice Band Torterra Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Mandibuzz: 274-324 (64.7 - 76.5%)
252 Atk Choice Band Tangrowth Rock Slide vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Mandibuzz: 194-230 (45.8 - 54.3%)

Tangrowth isn't supposed to be a choice band heavy hitter. Don't know why you compared. and no one would ever send in or leave cobalion or empoleon on torterra.
And well, Torterra shouldn't be ranked imo. I doubt you'll get much with Rock Polish considering it is stopped cold by Whimiscott, Porygon2 physical walls which are rather easy to come by (Forretress, Chesnaught, Tangrowth, Mega Aggron, Weezing etc.) and that's assuming you'll even get a rock polish with ice beam and scald on the pokemon torterra is supposed to be beating.

Choice band torterra isn't good. The pokemon you mentioned don't prove much since they are weak to its moves and no one would ever leave them in on a banded torterra. Situations you named are very unlikely to happen. Still stopped by physical walls. it's slow too which is problematic considering its defensive typing is awful. Scald still threatens, along with wisp from the rotom formes.

Tank set. Well. Chesnaught does the whole entry hazard + leech seed better. The dark type resistance is helpful for the team.

I don't see a reason to use this over the other grass types in the tier. Chesnaught provides spikes and leech seed, can sponge knock offs better, and has bulletproof. Tangrowth is better all around with knock off utility and regenerator. Amoonguss can put pokemon to sleep, threaten set up sweepers with foul play or stop them with clear smog. If I wanted a grass type attacker that apparently goes physical, id still choose virizon who is fast and can boost her attack with swords dance. As a bulky ground type, id look no further than gligar who also happens to have defog and knock off.

Ice weakness is still there. Obviously the pokemon i mentioned have ice weaknesses but they can support the team better than torterra can and tend to be more valuable.

Torterra will OHKO or weak it to 15% HP any bulky water that comes to his way before get scalded unless your name is Tentacruel. If Torterra gets burned but kills the Scald user its job is done. Btw Torterra always run max speed so that argument of being crippled by base 60s is completely senseless.

No bulky water is going to switch into a Wood Hammer. Very unlikely scenario
Probably this will happen. Torterra will switch into a bulky water (that's its job) and take a scald and maybe burn. If not the bulky water will switch out if alomomola and regenerate its health or outright defeat torterra with ice beam or ice punch if we're talking suicune or swampert.

And besides...you want torterra just to kill scald users when it can rarely accomplish this task and does almost nothing else besides this?

 

[empire370]

Alright, being super serious here, but. I'd like to nominate Delphox to C-Rank.

I'm going to be a bit long here, but more so for the sake of explaining. Delphox is a special attacking Fire/Psychic type for those of you that don't know, with stats of 75 HP, 69 Attack, 72 Defense, 114 Special Attack, 100 Special Defense, and 104 Speed.

Now, in UU, land of bulky waters, there's really two sets that can be run to do maximum damage to any team, and those are Calm Mind / Three Attacks and Specs or Scarf. (They're pretty much the same.)

That being said, it's mostly Fire Blast, Psyshock, and Grass Knot. While that leaves it walled by hydreigon dragons for the most part, and outsped by a lot of things that it really doesn't want to be outsped by, there's room for a fourth move, and to fix the glaring dragon issue, that could be the fourth move. If you have team support to handle that, you can run Calm Mind, and nuke the hell out of anything.

Also, a cool thing to remember is that even hitting 337 with Timid puts Delphox in a decent speed tier, outrunning most of the dragons it wants to, though at the cost of power.

Effectively, the Fox is a slower, slightly more powerful Infernape with a Psychic stab over Fighting stab priority. But it can still rip holes in opposing teams if played well, so I feel it would be nice to consider, even if no action's taken on it.

I have never use Delphox but why would I use it over chandelure besides higher speed

 

[Malin]

about Delphox, what I ask is: what does Delphox have over Azelf, besides Fire STAB?

Azelf has a much better speed tie, a better base SpA, can use a (bad) set of Specs or Scarf with Trick and can use Nasty Plot, a much better boosting option for a frail mon. Azelf also learns Fire Blast, and a +2 (or even a regular LO Fire Blast) might be enough to do everything Delphox does.

CM Delphox is also overshadowed by CM Espeon, which while incredibly niche, is still a better option, especially with Magic Bounce to stop Encore and status. Btw both Espeon and Azelf learns Dazzling Gleam which makes non-Scarfed Hydreigon just sad

Really there is no reason to use Delphox over said psychic types.

I have never use Delphox but why would I use it over chandelure besides higher speed

a much better higher speed would definitely be a reason to use it lol but thats not the case because Delphox competition is with Azelf and Espeon, not Chandelure
also please stop with those one line posts bro, it looks like flood and mostly doesn't bring nothing to the discussion

 

[Nightingales]

For one, Delphox gets STAB Psyshock, so most of the things that would typically wall both pokemon, (I.E. Florges, which is a 2HKO At beast from Modest Specs Chandelure Fire Blast, which I'm sure next to nobody runs that.) simply don't as much.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 24+ SpD Florges: 196-232 (54.4 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Life Orb Delphox Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 232 Def Florges: 175-207 (48.6 - 57.5%) -- 45.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Modest Delphox has just about a 50% the same chance to break through a more physically oriented Florges, where Chandelure running specs modest 2HKO's, and Timid brings it down to 70% chance to do that. We're looking at a 30 BST difference, and Delphox would win against most other stuff that Chandelure just can't break through without boosting.

Now, to Azelf/Espeon, they really both do outclass it. The main niche it has is the Stab Fire Blast, which hits power the other two can't really hit, and readily runs Grass Knot, which is apparently uncommon from the two aforementioned. (I know they get Energy Ball/GK, but I only ever see the former on Azelf and rarely then. Maybe low ladder doesn't know about it?) Most of the time, one or the other will outclass it, but the main advantage I can think of is that it readily can run Grass Knot.

 

[empire370]

For one, Delphox gets STAB Psyshock, so most of the things that would typically wall both pokemon, (I.E. Florges, which is a 2HKO At beast from Modest Specs Chandelure Fire Blast, which I'm sure next to nobody runs that.) simply don't as much.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 24+ SpD Florges: 196-232 (54.4 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Life Orb Delphox Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 232 Def Florges: 175-207 (48.6 - 57.5%) -- 45.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Modest Delphox has just about a 50% the same chance to break through a more physically oriented Florges, where Chandelure running specs modest 2HKO's, and Timid brings it down to 70% chance to do that. We're looking at a 30 BST difference, and Delphox would win against most other stuff that Chandelure just can't break through without boosting.

Now, to Azelf/Espeon, they really both do outclass it. The main niche it has is the Stab Fire Blast, which hits power the other two can't really hit, and readily runs Grass Knot, which is apparently uncommon from the two aforementioned. (I know they get Energy Ball/GK, but I only ever see the former on Azelf and rarely then. Maybe low ladder doesn't know about it?) Most of the time, one or the other will outclass it, but the main advantage I can think of is that it readily can run Grass Knot.

Florgres runs max defence mostly and specs is really common on chandelure and Chandy does give Delphox competition at wallbreaking Especially with the specs set

 

[Nightingales]

Chandelure also fails to be able to use Psyshock, so it can't hit on the physical side. In addition, it's at a speed tier where it gets revenged by everything under the sun, something which Delphox avoids by reaching 337, which is faster than a large portion of the tier. If you want to go really niche, the Fox also gets Dazzling Gleam, so it doesn't get revenged by Hydrei because of being walled, something Chandelure also cannot break through as readily.

It has multiple niches over Chandelure, and I've gone into them.

Now, a more fair comparison would be to Azelf or Espeon, both of which actually fit similar roles as it, instead Chandelure which is a slower, slightly stronger wallbreaker that can't use Psyshock to levy an advantage versus special walls.

 

[jjoshcja]

C rank torterra and clef seems like a good call. They're both serviceable utility pokes that compensate for their flaws via semi-unique typing or movepool options.

@ nightinales. Chandelure has 145 base spatk + 110 bp stab + boosting item/move. It has no need to hit physically.

Delphox has the niche of being a really bad victini (which is still usable don't get me wrong) but it's actually worse at beating special walls and the likes of hydrie and lax than chandy is.

(Edit: A- torn seems legit because chirp)

 

[robofiend]

Milotic from C to B:

Might raise some eyebrows here, but Milotic seems a bit underrated, despite its flaws.

With 252 hp/+def it sponges attacks from wallmons like Doublade, Donphan (who's pretty uncommon but meh) and other slow and relatively unscary sweepers. Its good speed gives it some added usefulness in getting the Scald burn off before anyone else. It's a pretty standard or even substandard bukly water when it comes to dealing with defense, although Marvel Scale can help it.

Where Milotic really shines is that it works really well at pressuring opponents into making bad plays. Without investment, it takes surprisingly little damage from Nidoqueen, Hydregion, M-Sceptile and Whimsicott and can put serious dents (or KO) in all of them depending on their spread. Because of this, Milotic can often have an advantage over 4 or 5 pokemon on enemy team. Other options like Suicune, Slowking and Swampert either lack this special defensiveness, lack instant recovery, or have special weaknesses that put them at a disadvantage. Dragon Tail is another awesome move that prevents Feraligator from setting up, as well as pairing nicely with entry hazards. It also helps that Milo has a good matchup against Forre, Donphan, Crobat, and other common Foggers or Spinners. Lastly, Milotic shines against M-Blastoise, who is both common and can't hang around long term once it takes a Scald Burn.

As I mentioned above, Milotic also can benefit from status like Scald Burn, and its instant recovery and Marvel Scale ability combine to increase its chances against offensive nukes like M-Beedrill, M-Aero, Salamence. It's major downside is that it does need some offensive support to win battles - it can't sweep like Suicune, Swampert or Blastoise and without a defense boost it completely gets worked trying to check strong physical hits.

 

[LRXC]

Milotic from C to B:

Might raise some eyebrows here, but Milotic seems a bit underrated, despite its flaws.

With 252 hp/+def it sponges attacks from wallmons like Doublade, Donphan (who's pretty uncommon but meh) and other slow and relatively unscary sweepers. Its good speed gives it some added usefulness in getting the Scald burn off before anyone else. It's a pretty standard or even substandard bukly water when it comes to dealing with defense, although Marvel Scale can help it.

Where Milotic really shines is that it works really well at pressuring opponents into making bad plays. Without investment, it takes surprisingly little damage from Nidoqueen, Hydregion, M-Sceptile and Whimsicott and can put serious dents (or KO) in all of them depending on their spread. Because of this, Milotic can often have an advantage over 4 or 5 pokemon on enemy team. Other options like Suicune, Slowking and Swampert either lack this special defensiveness, lack instant recovery, or have special weaknesses that put them at a disadvantage. Dragon Tail is another awesome move that prevents Feraligator from setting up, as well as pairing nicely with entry hazards. It also helps that Milo has a good matchup against Forre, Donphan, Crobat, and other common Foggers or Spinners. Lastly, Milotic shines against M-Blastoise, who is both common and can't hang around long term once it takes a Scald Burn.

As I mentioned above, Milotic also can benefit from status like Scald Burn, and its instant recovery and Marvel Scale ability combine to increase its chances against offensive nukes like M-Beedrill, M-Aero, Salamence. It's major downside is that it does need some offensive support to win battles - it can't sweep like Suicune, Swampert or Blastoise and without a defense boost it completely gets worked trying to check strong physical hits.

I will do a post on this later, but I think it would only rise from C to B-... I agree with C to B-, but not from C to B....

 

[Omfuga]

Alright people, time to stop posting massive images / gifs in every other post. They contribute nothing, clutter the thread and make this thread borderline unusable for mobile devices or people with slow internet.

If you want to use images to make your post pretty or whatever, just use the smogon / PS sprites; the urls are pretty easy

Replace ampharos with any pokemon name

http://www.smogon.com/dex/media/sprites/xy/ampharos-mega.gif

http://www.smogon.com/dex/media/sprites/xy/ampharos.gif

http://play.pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/bw/ampharos-mega.png

http://play.pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/bw/ampharos.png

(those 4 images combined are 1/10 the file size of some of the gifs posted in the last 3 pages)

You really are the UU savior, huh?

 

[JuanchoTacorta]

Milotic stays in C

Just to remind some people, quite months ago Milotic was considered unviable in UU metagame, outclassed by every other bulky water, until someone pointed out he was the only bulky water with access to Haze. There isn't any big niche Milotic could have right now, maybe access to recover, but it's not enough. Marvel Scale is a worse ability than it seems, being forced to suffer burn or poison dmg. Pokemon like Gastrodon, Seismitoad, Jellicent, Rest Suicune or even Poliwrath works better as Scald absorber, any of them having better support movepool or more offensive pressure than Milotic.

 

[LRXC]

Milotic stays in C

Just to remind some people, quite months ago Milotic was considered unviable in UU metagame, outclassed by every other bulky water, until someone pointed out he was the only bulky water with access to Haze. There isn't any big niche Milotic could have right now, maybe access to recover, but it's not enough. Marvel Scale is a worse ability than it seems, being forced to suffer burn or poison dmg. Pokemon like Gastrodon, Seismitoad, Jellicent, Rest Suicune or even Poliwrath works better as Scald absorber, any of them having better support movepool or more offensive pressure than Milotic.

Well, Marvel Scale is actually a great ability, in that Milotic becomes a huge defensive monster, and is one of the only bulky waters with a respectable speed stat and good offensive capabilities. Milotic does have access to Haze, which is a nice niche, but also has access to Dragon Tail, the only pokemon with a damaging shuffling move, besides Poliwrath(But he is VERY niche). Obviouslt Milotic aint the best bulky water, but he definetly does not deserve C rank, He should be b-

Milotic to B-

 

[Pinkin Lark]

Milotic from C to B:

Might raise some eyebrows here, but Milotic seems a bit underrated, despite its flaws.

With 252 hp/+def it sponges attacks from wallmons like Doublade, Donphan (who's pretty uncommon but meh) and other slow and relatively unscary sweepers. Its good speed gives it some added usefulness in getting the Scald burn off before anyone else. It's a pretty standard or even substandard bukly water when it comes to dealing with defense, although Marvel Scale can help it.

Where Milotic really shines is that it works really well at pressuring opponents into making bad plays. Without investment, it takes surprisingly little damage from Nidoqueen, Hydregion, M-Sceptile and Whimsicott and can put serious dents (or KO) in all of them depending on their spread. Because of this, Milotic can often have an advantage over 4 or 5 pokemon on enemy team. Other options like Suicune, Slowking and Swampert either lack this special defensiveness, lack instant recovery, or have special weaknesses that put them at a disadvantage. Dragon Tail is another awesome move that prevents Feraligator from setting up, as well as pairing nicely with entry hazards. It also helps that Milo has a good matchup against Forre, Donphan, Crobat, and other common Foggers or Spinners. Lastly, Milotic shines against M-Blastoise, who is both common and can't hang around long term once it takes a Scald Burn.

As I mentioned above, Milotic also can benefit from status like Scald Burn, and its instant recovery and Marvel Scale ability combine to increase its chances against offensive nukes like M-Beedrill, M-Aero, Salamence. It's major downside is that it does need some offensive support to win battles - it can't sweep like Suicune, Swampert or Blastoise and without a defense boost it completely gets worked trying to check strong physical hits.

Ok, time for my mandatory post on a Milotic nomination.

Anyone who knows me knows: I like Milotic. I used to hate it, when I was newer and worse at Pokemon. I thought it was unkillable with stupid Marvel Scale, Scald, and Recover all backing up its rather strong natural bulk. Then I got a little better, and realized it isn't hard to kill as long provided you can beat any bulky water.

ANYWAYS, the shocker is: I disagree with this nomination. Milotic is a great pure bulky water, but that's it. It lacks Hazards like Swampert, can't spin like Tenta/Mstoise, and can't setup for a sweep or stall out PP like Suicune. All it really does it sponge attacks/status and heal it off. It does it well, but the lack of extra utility really hurts when you have 6 slots on a team. The only real niche it has over other bulky waters is access to Haze, and the ease of fitting it into a move slot - Tentacruel can Haze as well, but doesn't exactly want to give up the slots for other moves.

Honestly, I'd say Milo would only be able to hit B- at most with how much competition it has. Even C+ would be alright for it, but we don't have a C+, so meh.

 

[jjoshcja]

Littlerunner...

Data tentacruel haze
Data slowking dragon tail

On the general note of milotic rising... this thing is basically D rank, it's a wall/offensive tank with no real outstanding utility or typing niche. It can be usable but there's almost no situation where milotic would be worth running over the 10,000 other waters in this tier.

 

[Pinkin Lark]

Littlerunner...

Data tentacruel haze
Data slowking dragon tail

On the general note of milotic rising... this thing is basically D rank, it's a wall/offensive tank with no real outstanding utility or typing niche. It can be usable but there's almost no situation where milotic would be worth running over the 10,000 other waters in this tier.

Neither one of those generally want to run that move, though.

Tentacruel already has to pick between Scald, Rapid Spin, Ice Beam, Knock Off, Toxic Spikes, Acid Spray, etc.. Haze is pretty low down on Tenta's list of priorities. Meanwhile, Milotic only generally needs Scald and Recover giving it two open slots for it to fit Haze into, as well as usually running Ice Beam for Dragons/Grass Types.

As for Slowking, most sets are going to be running CM/NP, so they aren't going to be interested in phazing. I think the only sets that really run Dtail right now are the fully defensive set, as it gives up setup for more utility, and the AV set, as it generally has a space to spare from giving up Slack Off.

Milo doesn't have a large niche in the tier, but it still has one. That's why it's C rank.

 

[jjoshcja]

Neither one of those generally want to run that move, though.

Tentacruel already has to pick between Scald, Rapid Spin, Ice Beam, Knock Off, Toxic Spikes, Acid Spray, etc.. Haze is pretty low down on Tenta's list of priorities. Meanwhile, Milotic only generally needs Scald and Recover giving it two open slots for it to fit Haze into, as well as usually running Ice Beam for Dragons/Grass Types.

As for Slowking, most sets are going to be running CM/NP, so they aren't going to be interested in phazing. I think the only sets that really run Dtail right now are the fully defensive set, as it gives up setup for more utility, and the AV set, as it generally has a space to spare from giving up Slack Off.

Milo doesn't have a large niche in the tier, but it still has one. That's why it's C rank.

To be honest I've run both dtail cm king and monoattacking haze/scald/tspike/spin tenta quite a bit. Neither really felt super pressedfor moveslots.

Minotic's main niche imo is that it's a monowater with subpar bulk that it kinda sorta makes up for via reliable recovery which is hilariously small as niches go.