Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V2 - Check Post #2500 PG. 100

[Scaler]

OK Shadow Ball definetely has its merits i was wrong.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Sylveon Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Jirachi: 254-300 (74.4 - 87.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Choice Specs Sylveon Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Metagross: 278-328 (92.3 - 108.9%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

neither of them can reliably switch into Sylveon with rocks up and/or any prior damage

 

[FaZeBoo]

On the sylveon topic, I feel that even though a hyper voice can hurt you, it is really only good for a 1-1 ratio unless you play it perfectly. If anything that is actually offensive that is above B rank hits it with neutral or super effective move, it is a 2HKO and only worth one kill. However, sylveon is great in doubles and it is offensive pressure, i feel that being stuck into a move cripples the capabilities that sylveon poses. I think it shouldn't be higher than B-. Stick to the wall set. That is known to be good

 

[Kurona]

On the sylveon topic, I feel that even though a hyper voice can hurt you, it is really only good for a 1-1 ratio unless you play it perfectly. If anything that is actually offensive that is above B rank hits it with neutral or super effective move, it is a 2HKO and only worth one kill. However, sylveon is great in doubles and it is offensive pressure, i feel that being stuck into a move cripples the capabilities that sylveon poses. I think it shouldn't be higher than B-. Stick to the wall set. That is known to be good

Okay no I'm not entirely sure what you're talking about here. Sylveon is being overrated quite a bit but it's ability to decimate common stall 'mon like Slowbro and Sableye is not to go unseen and the wall set is absolutely awful. For it's ability to tear apart stall teams and clear the way for things like Mega Gallade to sweep it should definitely see a rise to B.

 

[Scaler]

I don't think sylveon should rise to B+. From practice, that 65 base defense really hinders it. It needs a slow volt switch/u-turn, or a free switch or else it has to take an attack on the switch, then another attack since its speed is so slow. Also, yes it's hyper voice is super strong, but it's other attacks are quite mediocre if they aren't super effective, so being locked into a move that isn't hyper voice can be extremely hurtful. Example HP ground doesn't even OHKO Heatran, so even if the switch is predicted, the Heatran can just switch out and gain momentum forcing sylveon out. Sylveon is a great wallbreaker but not on par with the B+ mons and shouldnt move up.

Its low base defence is a hinderance yes but Sylveon is mostly brought in on Special attackers or tanks. Its even able to tank a +3 (Tail Glow) Surf outside of rain from manaphy and have a 30% chance of OHKOing back if rocks are up.Obviously you cant switch into a Boosted Surf but you can whilst its boosting or in a striahgt up 1v1. Thats pretty damn good This is pure preference but i use Sylveon solely as a anti-lead or a mid game wallbreaker when its counters are taken out. It is a pokemon that requires a decent amount of team support if the opponent is running an offensive steel or poison type however it can take care of itself fairly well. Having Baton Pass kind of alleviates the Locked into a single move situation but it requires a lot of prediction to use this effectively and i would argue Sylveon is one of the harder to use Wallbreakers for this reason. HP ground might not OHKO heatran but can drop it to 10-20% after leftovers recovery effectively crippling it which i find is good enough. Overall i find Sylveon is one of the harder Wallbreakers in the OU metagame to use effectively as it requires a lot of prediction but its payoffs are huge if you can do so.

 

[FaZeBoo]

Its low base defence is a hinderance yes but Sylveon is mostly brought in on Special attackers or tanks. This is pure preference but i use Sylveon solely as a anti-lead or a mid game wallbreaker when its counters are taken out. It is a pokemon that requires a decent amount of team support if the opponent is running an offensive steel or poison type however it can take care of itself fairly well. Having Baton Pass kind of alleviates the Locked into a single move situation but it requires a lot of prediction to use this effectively and i would argue Sylveon is one of the harder to use Wallbreakers for this reason. HP ground might not OHKO heatran but can drop it to 10-20% after leftovers recovery effectively crippling it which i find is good enough. Overall i find Sylveon is one of the harder Wallbreakers in the OU metagame to use effectively as it requires a lot of prediction but its payoffs are huge if you can do so.

I still feel that to get rid of sylveon's counters early game raises a point of how you can do it, mainly for the fact as I see the checks and counters are bulky steel types, such as ferro and tran, which typically are saved unless seen no point. In my battles, my walls are saved until I deem them no use, or I am forced to sac something, which in early game I feel i can find something else to sac. I still feel that it is a good mon, but again, not B+ worthy in my book.

 

[Scaler]

I still feel that to get rid of sylveon's counters early game raises a point of how you can do it, mainly for the fact as I see the checks and counters are bulky steel types, such as ferro and tran, which typically are saved unless seen no point. In my battles, my walls are saved until I deem them no use, or I am forced to sac something, which in early game I feel i can find something else to sac. I still feel that it is a good mon, but again, not B+ worthy in my book.

Sylveon can deal very well with bulky Steels depending on the Hidden Power it runs. Teams very rarely run both Heatran and Ferrothorn so its extremely risky to bring them in on Sylveon unless you know that it is already locked into Hyper Voice or the Hidden Power its running.

Some calcs.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Sylveon Hidden Power Ground vs. 248 HP / 192+ SpD Heatran: 280-332 (72.7 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Sylveon Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 292-348 (82.9 - 98.8%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Choice Specs Sylveon Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 176 SpD Mega Scizor: 324-384 (94.4 - 111.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Choice Specs Sylveon Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Metagross: 278-328 (92.3 - 108.9%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Choice Specs Sylveon Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Jirachi: 184-218 (45.5 - 53.9%) -- 45.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 186-219 (55.6 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

I agree that A- is too big of a nomination and honestly i wasnt really for it just going off th past discussion of it. B+ is also probably a bit high as going up 2places at once is a fair amount but i can definetely see it rising there so B would fit it perfectly for now.

 

[FaZeBoo]

B does sound better, because i do understand the hidden powers can cover the walls in a 1v1, but if you are locked into hyper voice, the ratio is back to 1v1. Any wall after locked into hyper voice can take AT least one without crits and do some good damage, especially ferro.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 106-126 (30.1 - 35.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (99 BP) vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Sylveon: 288-342 (73.4 - 87.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I say you cant bring it higher because of choice lock, especially since that a ferro can take one hp fire at full, as well as tran with ground.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 248 HP / 192+ SpD Heatran: 51-60 (13.2 - 15.5%) -- "possibly the worst move ever" <-Straight from calc
252+ SpA Choice Specs Sylveon Hidden Power Ground vs. 248 HP / 192+ SpD Heatran: 280-332 (72.7 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Sylveon Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 292-348 (82.9 - 98.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

However, I can agree that Sylveon has great late game capabilities and could be legit if at B, but no higher

 

[Scaler]

As i said Specs Sylveon is very prediction based as it can destroy its counters or be completely walled by them depending on the move it is locked into. It is very feast or famine in this regard.If you can predict the opponent switching to ferro/heatran you have 3options.

If locked into a move:

Try for a double switch and bring in a counter to these pokemon

If not locked into a move:
Use baton pass to gain momentum to bring in counters to these 2 pokemon
Use your HP variant to heavily damage or OHKO with prior damage.

The problem with these is that if you predict incorrectly your allowing free damage onto your Sylveon/ switchin or being locked into a weaker move. The only pokemon i find to 100% wall are chansey and Blissey as neither of them can be taken out by anything short of a 3HKO or if incredibly lucky a double crit but correctly double switching or baton passing can help in this situation.

 

[hobreezy]

As i said Specs Sylveon is very prediction based as it can destroy its counters or be completely walled by them depending on the move it is locked into. It is very feast or famine in this regard.If you can predict the opponent switching to ferro/heatran you have 3options.

If locked into a move:

Try for a double switch and bring in a counter to these pokemon

If not locked into a move:
Use baton pass to gain momentum to bring in counters to these 2 pokemon
Use your HP variant to heavily damage or OHKO with prior damage.

The problem with these is that if you predict incorrectly your allowing free damage onto your Sylveon/ switchin or being locked into a weaker move. The only pokemon i find to 100% wall are chansey and Blissey as neither of them can be taken out by anything short of a 3HKO or if incredibly lucky a double crit but correctly double switching or baton passing can help in this situation.

Yeah Sylveon can hurt it's counters but it is very prediction based as you stated. More often then not Sylv is just gonna fire off Hyper voice because the opportunity cost of misprediction is pretty harsh on it. Sylv has no recover so taking a hit, whether it be on a switch in or not is killer. And if there are hazards on the field, sylv just gets worn down even more. Pairing that along with it's pitiful speed makes Sylveon not to tough to ware down and kill off. Also, I think the "locked in or not" situations you stated are a little more black in white than they are in actual gameplay.

All that being said, I agree with some of your major points. Sylveon is still a great wallbreaker and is a step above it's B- counterparts. It should get raised to B.

 

[Scaler]

Yeah Sylveon can hurt it's counters but it is very prediction based as you stated. More often then not Sylv is just gonna fire off Hyper voice because the opportunity cost of misprediction is pretty harsh on it. Sylv has no recover so taking a hit, whether it be on a switch in or not is killer. And if there are hazards on the field, sylv just gets worn down even more. Pairing that along with it's pitiful speed makes Sylveon not to tough to ware down and kill off. Also, I think the "locked in or not" situations you stated are a little more black in white than they are in actual gameplay.

All that being said, I agree with some of your major points. Sylveon is still a great wallbreaker and is a step above it's B- counterparts. It should get raised to B.

The situations i listed were based purely on if you correctly predicted the opponent switching to something that generally walls Sylveon. Of course if you mispredicted say a Mega Gyardos (who Sylveon beats if it has not boosted or doesnt get a flinch on waterfall) switching out from Sylveon into a ferrothorn, you use HP fire and Gyarados Dragon Dances you basically just screwed yourself as thats 2+ free turns for it to D dance. This is exactly why i have referred to Sylveon as heavily prediction based and Feast or Famine. In the right situation it can beat 90% of the tier and break entire teamcomps however misprediction can completely screw Sylveon over in the form of free setup for the opponent or Sylveon being taken out. However in the same token despite the Specs set being a near One Trick Pony, Sylveon itself does have a fair amount of unpredictability.

I would be heavily interested in Sylveons usage by moveset if it is available as there are 3 sets i would list as viable (although pure personal opinion, i feel Specs does outclass the other two) and i feel the most commonly used set currently is the cleric set. Therefore switching to the Ferrothorn/Heatran etc can be disastrous for you if you expect the Specs set as it could be CM/Pass or Cleric therefore giving Sylveon the option to boost with a CM/Subsitute on front of your wall then pass to a teammate or can just pull an essentially free Wish or heal bell support for itself or its teammates. In the same way Sylveon could be Specs when assuming cleric support expecting it to Wish Pass and dying to Hyper Voice whilst setting up a sweeper. The whole HP fire/ground thing is another thing but i feel it can be predicted to a degree based on if they already have something to deal with Heatran (Excadrill, Conk etc) or Ferrothorn/Scizor (Tflame, Zard etc).

There are definetely some Cons to running any of the above sets as the cleric set is outclassed by Clefable against sweepers (Sylveon can run roar though to phase them out if they try setting up in your face) and M Garde is an alterantive to the specs set if you have a free mega slot as your not forced into a single move but i find the Pro's do outweigh the cons and it deserves a rise above B-

 

[Vert]

lol

sylveon is way too slow to do its job consistently. it can't switch in that well to begin with. most pokemon it likes to come in on have a secondary STAB that can easily pick off some nice damage off it like garchomp, latios, tyranitar, keldeo, etc..... while it has good bulk, it ends up turning into deadweight in this hazard stacking metagame. it can come in on a bunch of crap like celebi, but your opponent will have something like heatran naturally. should i shadow ball expecting him to switch to mega metagross, or will i end up losing momentum because manaphy stays in? losing the latter really sucks in this offensive metagame where you see a bisharp at pretty much every corner. prediction based mons don't get that far in this meta especially considering the prevalence of ridiculously powerful wallbreaker megas possibly in your opponent's hand. against stall, chansey and bronzong wall you, so it's not much an argument. giving the aforementioned mega metagross a free switch if you predict wrong is horrid at the moment when it just meteor mashes something to death (take note it only fits on bulky offense and balanced). overall, sylveon shouldn't even be compared to mega gardevoir which is miles ahead of it being able to completely wreck stall with a calm mind set for example. it really looks like i am underselling sylveon. it is a good poke, but seeing it at the same level as sceptile, beedrill, and kyurem-b is definitely something me or anyone would say is unfair. a rise to b is fine, but b+ is definitely exaggerating its abilities.

 

[astroboy]

on a separate topic, (wow that sylveon discussion was an experience lmao) what do you guys think about victini to b+
being a cool hard check to eq-less megagrosses, while also having an extensively movepool, allowing it to go mixed, be a great wallbreaker with the banded set, a potent stallbreaker, or my personal favorite, the subpup set, which lets it get past some of its usual counters (like heatran or ttar). really, when you're facing it, the only move you can be sure it has is vcreate. its super versatile, and definitely worth giving a try!
i mean, it's not without its flaws. being rocks weak and easily pursuit trapped by ttar, but these traits are easily worked around by team support. I think a good partner would be mold breaker excadrill. while not having the best defensive synergy, exca can spin hazards, get rid of ttar and most altaria, while also being able to get rid of rotom-wash so victini has an easier time. serperior is also another option, being able to beat bulky waters like slowbro with ease.
but I think victinis a really solid mon, that I think is a notch above things in B like crawdaunt or mandibuzz

 

[RichieTheGarchomp]

Sylveon for A-? I'm sometimes arguing if it should go to B+!

Also, I'm a bit confused in why Starmie is A- right now. I'm probably way off, but this guy is probably the best offensive spinner in the game. This guy has legit so much coverage. It has BoltBeam with its STABs... There are little to no things that can take it. Of course, you have to cover a slot or two for its Hazard removal and Recovering move, which is Recover, a great perk for an offensive spinner, especially with LO.

It also has a very cool niche: Reflect type. This makes it a totally different Rapid Spinner/Hazard remover because it actually isnt countered by Bisharp (Besides Excadrill and Latias with Reflect Type.) and it has Scald to go with it, giving it burn spreading.

This is the perfect Rapid Spinner with offensive capabilities and Recovery. Sometimes you dont want a Defogger because they remove your hazards, too! Also, lets not forget the decent SpA, great Speed, and understandable bulk that can tank a few hits.

Did I also mention it checks non GK MMeta and walls it with Reflect type? No? Damn it. I just feel like this guy is too good for the likes of Magnezone, Hippo, Gyarados, hell, even Mamoswine for its great combination of a supporting role and an offensive role. He should fit into A almost perfectly.

 

[Stef0w]

Sylveon for A-? I'm sometimes arguing if it should go to B+!

Also, I'm a bit confused in why Starmie is A- right now. I'm probably way off, but this guy is probably the best offensive spinner in the game. This guy has legit so much coverage. It has BoltBeam with its STABs... There are little to no things that can take it. Of course, you have to cover a slot or two for its Hazard removal and Recovering move, which is Recover, a great perk for an offensive spinner, especially with LO.

It also has a very cool niche: Reflect type. This makes it a totally different Rapid Spinner/Hazard remover because it actually isnt countered by Bisharp (Besides Excadrill and Latias with Reflect Type.) and it has Scald to go with it, giving it burn spreading.

This is the perfect Rapid Spinner with offensive capabilities and Recovery. Sometimes you dont want a Defogger because they remove your hazards, too! Also, lets not forget the decent SpA, great Speed, and understandable bulk that can tank a few hits.

Did I also mention it checks non GK MMeta and walls it with Reflect type? No? Damn it. I just feel like this guy is too good for the likes of Magnezone, Hippo, Gyarados, hell, even Mamoswine for its great combination of a supporting role and an offensive role. He should fit into A almost perfectly.

I wouldnt really underrate the other mons in a- like that.

Gyarados is a very effective DDer in the current metagame, sporting not only great power, but also superb bulk and an awesome ability as well. Being able to run items like life orb and lum berry is also really cool compared to the mega IMO.

Hippo is argubly the greatest physical wall in the current metagame, and magnezone is excellent for supporting extremely deadly sweepers like mega pinsir.

Starmie is indeed an awesome mon, but it does fit the powerlevel of A- rather well if you ask me.

(You made a good post btw, whatever lurking you have done really seems to have paid off, so thumbs up on that part :] ).

 

[henry]

LOL I'm gonna ignore the nominations for sylveon in a- and just say that in terms of the choice specs set (only set worth using in oras, otherwise outclassed by clefable), it can't run both HP fire and HP ground which most people are implying, so sylveon will have to sacrifice the ability to lure a certain pkmn assuming you get the switch in correct as both aforementioned pkmn( scizor and heatran) have the ability to almost ohko it, while sylveon will not 100 % ohko back and is much slower.
sylveons speed is a massive setback, and is extremely easy to revenge/outspeed on offense/balance.

The specs set is akin to entei's band set where you'll be using one move almost every time, while entei is much faster and has priority, but sacrifices special bulk, marginal power and an arguably worse typing.

sylveon is just not great and for me whether it should stay this high is questionable.

 

[bludz]

Sylveon for A-? I'm sometimes arguing if it should go to B+!

Also, I'm a bit confused in why Starmie is A- right now. I'm probably way off, but this guy is probably the best offensive spinner in the game. This guy has legit so much coverage. It has BoltBeam with its STABs... There are little to no things that can take it. Of course, you have to cover a slot or two for its Hazard removal and Recovering move, which is Recover, a great perk for an offensive spinner, especially with LO.

It also has a very cool niche: Reflect type. This makes it a totally different Rapid Spinner/Hazard remover because it actually isnt countered by Bisharp (Besides Excadrill and Latias with Reflect Type.) and it has Scald to go with it, giving it burn spreading.

This is the perfect Rapid Spinner with offensive capabilities and Recovery. Sometimes you dont want a Defogger because they remove your hazards, too! Also, lets not forget the decent SpA, great Speed, and understandable bulk that can tank a few hits.

Did I also mention it checks non GK MMeta and walls it with Reflect type? No? Damn it. I just feel like this guy is too good for the likes of Magnezone, Hippo, Gyarados, hell, even Mamoswine for its great combination of a supporting role and an offensive role. He should fit into A almost perfectly.

The issue is that you can't have the best of both worlds. If you go Reflect Type, Starmie has next to no offensive presence. If you go offensive LO, there's a timer on your lifespan, and if you throw recover on that then you lose out on valuable coverage.

I think Starmie is quite solid but every set needs to run Rapid Spin which leads to serious 4 moveslot syndrome. It isn't on the level of most of the A rank pokemon.

 

[p2]

Sylveon is pretty overrated in these threads, when it's just not great in practice. Sure it nukes w/specs, but a bunch of teams carry a good fairy resist, which walls it without the specific HP coverage. It's also very prediction reliant, which can be a complete momentum killer if you Hyper Voice into a resist. It's just so slow and without defensive investment, is pretty frail and easy to take down, and things like Jirachi rising in usage doesn't help it at all as it gives it issues as it needs Shadow Ball to hit Jirachi, and has to lose out on coverage or Baton Pass, A- is completely overselling it and if it does rise, it shouldn't go any further than B+.

However, I think Victini is really interesting in this meta, as it's one of the best offensive checks to Mega Metagross and most fire types, outside of Earth Power Heatran, it can be an effective Wallbreaker with CB due to the sheer power of Banded V-Creates, or it can opt for a Scarf revenge killer set, which lets it deal with fast threats like MMeta, Mega Lopunny, Scarf Lando-T, Keldeo, Gengar, Gyarados, Mega Gallade, Tornadus-T, Mega Beedrill and more. Its got good coverage through moves like Bolt Strike, Glaciate (it's so good for picking off weakened 4x resists and a speed drop on something like Lando-T pressures it to switch so much), Grass Knot (which is all it really needs + STAB). It does have it's flaws such as having an awful defensive typing in general, being SR weak and being extremely weak to pursuit trapping. And even then, it can opt for a SubPup set which lets it break bulky waters and Heatran + TTar who all check / counter it. It's fairly unpredictable to a degree as you can't tell if it's running Adamant CB Wallbreaker, Scarf Revenge killer or SubPuP. I think it should be B+ as it's just not on the level of Conkeldurr or Mega Sharpedo

 

[Kurona]

I don't know what on earth happened to the Sylveon discussion the last few pages, but it's pretty incredible. First off we have people saying it should go to A- which is completely exaggerating it's offensive capabilities and ability to be placed on teams, and then we have this statement - "whether it should stay this high is questionable." which is just... gods. Maybe I read that wrong, but to me that's implying it should go to C+ or lower, and I'm sorry but that is completely ridiculous and seems a complete kneejerk reaction. Putting it on the same rank as Mega Pidgeot, Mega Medicham and Mega Ampharos is just downright insulting.
Now here's the thing I don't get; everyone against Sylveon is going on about it's frailty and speed. While this of course means it shouldn't go to A-... guys, it's a wallbreaker. It doesn't need to be super fast - and if it was I'd barely have a reason to use Mega Gardevoir - and it's role is to dismantle stall. It's got a whole lot better in this metagame where it's specs set can take down every single new stall Mega:-

252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Altaria: 426-504 (120.3 - 142.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Sableye: 366-432 (120.3 - 142.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. +1 252 HP / 0+ SpD Mega Sableye: 302-356 (99.3 - 117.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Slowbro: 337-397 (85.5 - 100.7%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Slowbro: 225-265 (57.1 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 4 SpA Mega Slowbro Scald vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon: 130-154 (33.1 - 39.2%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO

While still faring very well against common stall 'mon as well:-

252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro: 337-397 (85.5 - 100.7%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 244 HP / 192+ SpD Gliscor: 256-303 (72.7 - 86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
0 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Sylveon: 147-174 (37.5 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 264-312 (87.1 - 102.9%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

It shouldn't go to A- as that's overstating what it can do, but it's ability to break down a lot of very annoying stall 'mon for it's physically offensive partners like Gallade and Bisharp should not sentence it to B- and definitely not C+. It breaks walls, every new ORAS stall Mega hates it, even if it doesn't KO it's still doing like at least half even to steel switch-ins. It deserves B but no more than that.

 

[bb skarm]

I think Toxicroak should be moved to B rank. I have not seen for record a Pokemon who is being this underestimated. Toxicroak is, simply put, a total monster. First off, the most noteworthy thing is the amazing Attack stat in tandem with Gunk Shot, which basically OHKOes any non-resists or any Pokemon with no investment. However, the main reason I'm making this nomination is because Poison / Fighting with Dry Skin lets it counter a huge amount of Pokemon. In fact, it outright counters Keldeo, Azumarill (can't switch in cause play rough but still), non-Psychic Manaphy, Breloom, Crawdaunt, Mega Gyarados, Bisharp, and CroCune/Bro. Apart from that, it's got amazing priority in Sucker Punch, allowing you to weaken a good portion of attackers enough for you to finish them off with another Pokemon, as well as turn would-be checks like Latios into targets.

I'll post replays later (if I have to) but for now I think B- is really shitty because that's implying that it's on the level of Zapdos and Magneton, so I think a raise to better represent it is in place.

 

[NotSoClutch]

I think Toxicroak should be moved to B rank. I have not seen for record a Pokemon who is being this underestimated. Toxicroak is, simply put, a total monster. First off, the most noteworthy thing is the amazing Attack stat in tandem with Gunk Shot, which basically OHKOes any non-resists or any Pokemon with no investment. However, the main reason I'm making this nomination is because Poison / Fighting with Dry Skin lets it counter a huge amount of Pokemon. In fact, it outright counters Keldeo, Azumarill (can't switch in cause play rough but still), non-Psychic Manaphy, Breloom, Crawdaunt, Mega Gyarados, Bisharp, and CroCune/Bro. Apart from that, it's got amazing priority in Sucker Punch, allowing you to weaken a good portion of attackers enough for you to finish them off with another Pokemon, as well as turn would-be checks like Latios into targets.

I'll post replays later (if I have to) but for now I think B- is really shitty because that's implying that it's on the level of Zapdos and Magneton, so I think a raise to better represent it is in place.

While I like Toxicroak, I think you may be overestimating it's viability. Things like megados, megabro, and even Keldeo often have something in their sets to OHKO it before toxicroak can do a significant chuck to them (EQ on gyarados, psyshock on megabro, Hidden power on specs sets for Keldeo). As such you need to either scout first or go for a really ballsy prediction. And let's be honest, Toxicroak is insanely frail and kinda of slow. 106 isn't all that high an attack either allowing many Pokemon to tank a hit or two. I'll admit that toxicroak is a good Pokemon that is often overlooked in team building, but B- is still a really good rank for something that becomes deadweight in a lot of matchups.

 

[SketchUp]

In fact, it outright counters Keldeo, Azumarill (can't switch in cause play rough but still), non-Psychic Manaphy, Breloom, Crawdaunt, Mega Gyarados, Bisharp, and CroCune/Bro.

I can see Toxicroak moving up, but you misses some points on checks and counters.
Toxicroak checks Keldeo, because it is 2hko'd by Specs Secret Sword and Sucker Punch doesn't do anything
It also only checks Manaphy, as a +3 Ice Beam OHKOs
Also Bisharp is only checked because LO Iron Head KOs after rock

 

[bb skarm]

While I like Toxicroak, I think you may be overestimating it's viability.

Yes I overestimated it so much that I asked for it to move up one subrank ?_?

Things like megados, megabro, and even Keldeo often have something in their sets to OHKO it before toxicroak can do a significant chuck to them (EQ on gyarados, psyshock on megabro, Hidden power on specs sets for Keldeo).

Most Mega Gyarados run Taunt or Sub in the last slot and Crunch / Waterfall as their attacks. I specifically mention that it was CroBro (which only runs Scald) it countered. And most Keldeo are SubCM which run Water/Fighting, and HP Flying is very nonexistent now.

106 isn't all that high an attack either allowing many Pokemon to tank a hit or two.

And Exploud's 91 Special Attack is shit, but Boomburst makes it viable because of the high BP. Same with Gunk Shot? Also, if you're saying shit like base 100 Special Attack on some mons is bad...

I can see Toxicroak moving up, but you misses some points on checks and counters.
Toxicroak checks Keldeo, because it is 2hko'd by Specs Secret Sword and Sucker Punch doesn't do anything
It also only checks Manaphy, as a +3 Ice Beam OHKOs
Also Bisharp is only checked because LO Iron Head KOs after rock

sorta unnecessary but oops u_u

 

[Thisbemyalt]

I think Toxicroak should be moved to B rank. I have not seen for record a Pokemon who is being this underestimated. Toxicroak is, simply put, a total monster. First off, the most noteworthy thing is the amazing Attack stat in tandem with Gunk Shot, which basically OHKOes any non-resists or any Pokemon with no investment. However, the main reason I'm making this nomination is because Poison / Fighting with Dry Skin lets it counter a huge amount of Pokemon. In fact, it outright counters Keldeo, Azumarill (can't switch in cause play rough but still), non-Psychic Manaphy, Breloom, Crawdaunt, Mega Gyarados, Bisharp, and CroCune/Bro. Apart from that, it's got amazing priority in Sucker Punch, allowing you to weaken a good portion of attackers enough for you to finish them off with another Pokemon, as well as turn would-be checks like Latios into targets.

I'll post replays later (if I have to) but for now I think B- is really shitty because that's implying that it's on the level of Zapdos and Magneton, so I think a raise to better represent it is in place.

I brought this nom up earlier in the thread but was like ignored when the changes happen and I still totally support this rise. One thing I really like about croak is that with sub he can really pull off great things and against slow teams SD really hurts, ofc u covered most everything else there is to say haha but Im gonna link my original post so I dont ramble again.
Original post: http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...-check-post-1077.3526596/page-39#post-6013265

 

[NotSoClutch]

Yes I overestimated it so much that I asked for it to move up one subrank ?_?



Most Mega Gyarados run Taunt or Sub in the last slot and Crunch / Waterfall as their attacks. I specifically mention that it was CroBro (which only runs Scald) it countered. And most Keldeo are SubCM which run Water/Fighting, and HP Flying is very nonexistent now.



And Exploud's 91 Special Attack is shit, but Boomburst makes it viable because of the high BP. Same with Gunk Shot? Also, if you're saying shit like base 100 Special Attack on some mons is bad...



sorta unnecessary but oops u_u

Doesn't mean that someone won't run EQ for luring things like rotom and my point still stands on the whole megabro thing because you have to KNOW it's crobro which is honestly one of Slowbro's worst sets in my honest opinion as CM + 2 attacks and tank mega slowbro tend to beat a larger number of Pokemon more consistently. As for the whole Keldeo thing, specs is still really common despite the sub CM set becoming the most popular current set. Exploud does hit really hard, but Exploud's powerful stab move has much better coverage and no chance of missing. I'm not saying 106 attack is bad, but it's not high enough to consistently scare off a lot of the stuff you imply it would in your statement not to mention that it kind of has to OHKO due to it's hilariously bad bulk. Couple that with the fact that it's very sucker punch reliant due to it's bad speed and it's poor matchup against any team with a ground type wall or a skarmory. I like Toxicroak, don't get me wrong, I just think it's too reliant on the opponent's team to consistently do it's job as well as you say.

 

[Grim]

I brought this nom up earlier in the thread but was like ignored when the changes happen and I still totally support this rise. One thing I really like about croak is that with sub he can really pull off great things and against slow teams SD really hurts, ofc u covered most everything else there is to say haha but Im gonna link my original post so I dont ramble again.
Original post: http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...-check-post-1077.3526596/page-39#post-6013265

You weren't ignored, a lot of people made posts lol. In the end, it was just decided that Toxicroak does not deserve a raise for now. I don't see why it has to be brought up so soon again when nothing has changed.