I like the power of it for shredding through bulkier threats. Same reason I use Outrage on Charizard X over Dragon Claw. But alright, I just thought the coverage on Psychic types would be helpful, but you're right when I think about it.
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Resource ORAS OU Simple Questions, Simple Answers MKII (Read the OP First!) (Now with 100% more Rules!!!)
- Thread starter ginganinja
- Start date
A lot of threatening Psychic-types either have a secondary typing that makes them neutral to bug (Jirachi, Metagross, Victini, Gardevoir, Gallade ) or are so frail that hitting them super-effectively won't really matter (both Zam formes, Azelf, Espeon, Starmie to an extent). Celebi is massacred by Return.
I can see a very niche use for X-Scissor on SD sets lacking Quick Attack to deal with the fattest of fat psychics (Slowbro, M-Bro, and Cresselia) but it's usually better to break M-Bro on the special side. You're best off trying to SD and push through with Return if you're in a situation where Pinsir has to break these threats regardless to maintain some type of coverage, which is either Earthquake or Close Combat depending on the meta. QA is nice because M-Pinsir is always slower than I remember it being....
The power differential between Return and Thrash isn't large enough to make up for the lock-in.
Alright, thank you for the advice. :D I'll keep Quick Attack and won't run X-Scissor.
The meta game is seeing more BO and stall teams, and electrics do not appreciate this. Yes, sand is really prevalent like you asked, which electrics types hate, on top of that, electics just get wittled easily and aren't the most reliable checks. Raikou cannot reliably check things like torn t, which can knock and u turn it. Also Quagsire entering ou doesn't help out at all. Being a solid answer to mega manetric and raikou. With the rise of things like Amoongus and even Mega latias, as well as Clefable still being a dominant factor in the meta, they just aren't as good as they were before, which is why people are looking for other answers than electric types we have now.
You're not technically wrong, but saying that Stall and by extension Quagsire(which is one of the oldest pieces of stall) are reasons they dropped is ludicrous since stall has been something forever and it definitely not at its peak right now, if anything it got significantly worse and basing it off the ladder metagame (which this sounds like) is starkly different then the metagame of tournaments and the like
The current paradigm in BO/Balance teambuilding practically requires a (usually bulky) ground-type, both to stop Volt Switch and Thunder Wave in addition to the enduring power of Earthquake.
The problem with Electric-Types is generally a lack of powerful SE coverage that also hits things neutrally. M-Man and Raikou (the best electric pivots) rely on HP Ice but this only works for the 4x weak targets: Landorus-T, Garchomp, Gliscor. You're not breaking bulky 2x targets like hippo (or multiscale Dragonite) with HP Ice. Sand places two more obstacles: Tyranitar's huge special defense in Sand and Excadrill's Speed and neutrality to all electric-type coverage barring Overheat from M-Man, Heat Wave from Defensive Zapdos, or Rotom-Wash's Hydro Pump. You're also hard-pressed to deal with Water/Grounds (Swampert, Gastrodon, Quagsire)
Oh! Another problem! A lot of the traditional electric pivots face hard competition from Rotom-Wash; as the metagame has slowed down a bit Wash's slow Volt Switch and excellent defensive coverage + Will-o has allowed it to thrive in weather-infested metas (it's also a pain for rain to deal with, believe you me).
Thundurus is in a much better boat than M-Man and Raikou, mostly because it can boost easily and has that Prankster T-Wave (not to mention Grass Knot and the capability to go mixed with Knock Off / Superpower).
On a side note: I've always loved how completely useless most electric types against rain (barring Thundurus and to an extent Wash although it folds to two Hydros after rocks). That's irony.
So, I was wondering, why Blaziken it's still an Uber? I get that the mega could cause some problems so that's fine there. But regular Blaziken? It has a really bad case of 4MSS and a lot of solid checks in the tier (Azumarill, Talonflame, Hippodown, Landorous-T, Sand-Rush Excadrill, and so on). And I understand that it has like 0 100% safe switch-ins, but also a lot of other stuff in the tier does (Kyurem-B, Nidoking, heck even Staraptor). So I don't get, I'm missing something? If so please tell me :P
(also sorry for the shitty english, I'm not a native speaker)
(also sorry for the shitty english, I'm not a native speaker)
HailFall
my cancer is sun and my leo is moon
Blaziken would be just a standard wallbreaker with blaze, but speed boost gives it a way to drastically improve its matchup against offense and become a near unstoppable cleaner when paired with stealth rocks. Talonflame and azumarill can both revenge kill it but only on a free switch after foddering something to it. Blaziken could also run special or mixed sets to bypass standard checks like landorus-t and hippo while not giving up much utility against other teams. Certain things can check it/revenge kill it but its just so devistatingly powerful and hard to stop that it would dominate ou and place a massive strain on teambuilding which is why it belongs in ubers.
I made some calcs, and:
252+ SpA Life Orb Blaziken Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon: 259-305 (61.6 - 72.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Blaziken Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Landorus-T: 273-321 (71.4 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Yes, a special set indeed allows it to break its 2 main counters, and while a mixed set would just check Landorous, it's still a huge threat for offense like you said, thanks for helping me to put things in perspective.
(also sorry for taking to long to respond I had to go out)
I have a couple questions that pertain to OU:
- Are Hyper Offensive/Balanced Playstyles great ways to start learning the OU Tier?
- If using HO, what is the common way to construct such a team?
- Is Stall Viable and if so, is it difficult to build?
- What are some main threats I should consider while in the process of teambuilding?
1. Yeah, I'd say so. Offense tends to more prediction reliant since you're operating without a solid defensive backbone, so whichever style suits you works IMO.
2. Commonly you want to pick a core or 'mon to work with, and find ways to pressure things that check that core/'mon. So if I start building around Lopunny, I need to identify what roadblocks cause it to stop dead in it's tracks and figure out what I can use to draw them in and weaken them. Slowbro, Clefable, and fat grounds annoy Lopunny, so a good partner would be LO SD Garchomp or some other wallbreaker that draws in things similarly.
3. Yes, stall is viable. Stall is generally slight variations to the groundwork of Skarmory/Sableye/Chansey/Quagsire/Amoonguss and not conducive to creative teambuilding.
4. I'd say that you should aim to cover S, A+, A, and A- of the OU Viability Rankings as best as you can. There are tons of other threats below the previously mentioned ranks than can floor teams quite easily, but this meta is so congested with threats that it becomes nearly impossible to cover everything. Also, it's generally best to have a steel type to switch into Latios' Dracos and something that can semi-reliably switch into Keldeo's STAB combination of water/fighting (Latios, Assault Vest Tornadus-T, Amoonguss, and Mega-Venusaur are some examples). Sand offense is another huge threat you'll need an answer to (Rotom-W, Skarmory, Landorus-T, Tangrowth are defensive answers to sand offense; Breloom, Azumarill and to a lesser extent Bisharp are more offensive ways of dealing with sand offense).
I'm EV training my Rotom-W at the moment, and it is Bold with 31/8/31/31/31/20 (the Attack and Speed are unconfirmed, but around there). The accepted spread is 248 Hp, 252 Def, 8 Spe. However, since I'm quite a bit below 31 in Speed IVs, there's no point for me to commit 8 EVs that would normally make a Rotom-W hit a relevant speed tier. What I expect would be best, as an alternative, is 242 Hp, 252 Def, 8 SpDef.
My question is whether or not I should put a full 252 into Hp. It makes Rotom-W hit 304, which means he will take 38 damage from Stealth Rock instead of 37, but it also means he will recover 19 Hp with Leftovers every turn instead of 18. I think I'll be getting more Leftover recoveries throughout a battle than Stealth Rock costs, so wouldn't going full 252 Hp be better? I understand going only 248 when Rotom-W uses 8 Spe, but if there's no reason to commit to any Speed, wouldn't the extra 1 Hp from Leftovers every turn be more valuable than taking 1 less damage from Stealth Rock switch-in?
I would appreciate some thoughts on this!
My question is whether or not I should put a full 252 into Hp. It makes Rotom-W hit 304, which means he will take 38 damage from Stealth Rock instead of 37, but it also means he will recover 19 Hp with Leftovers every turn instead of 18. I think I'll be getting more Leftover recoveries throughout a battle than Stealth Rock costs, so wouldn't going full 252 Hp be better? I understand going only 248 when Rotom-W uses 8 Spe, but if there's no reason to commit to any Speed, wouldn't the extra 1 Hp from Leftovers every turn be more valuable than taking 1 less damage from Stealth Rock switch-in?
I would appreciate some thoughts on this!
I've known some people to run imperfect Speed IVs on Rotom-W so that they Volt Switch after opposing Rotom-W do to gain switch priority. The biggest issue I can see with having lowered Speed is that uninvested Suicune can CM before you Volt Switch, but otherwise you'll probably do alright. I will note, however, that some people like to run more Speed on Rotom to deal with various threats, and you'd have to run more EVs than most people to reach those benchmarks, cutting into your bulk a bit.
As far as the SR question goes, I'll leave that to someone else, but generally I'd think that hitting a Leftovers number is more important, as you'd recover that extra 1 damage anyway.
As far as the SR question goes, I'll leave that to someone else, but generally I'd think that hitting a Leftovers number is more important, as you'd recover that extra 1 damage anyway.
Volcanion @ Choice Specs
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 SpA
- Steam Eruption
- Flamethrower
- Sludge Bomb
- Hidden Power [Grass]
Volcanion @ Choice Specs
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Steam Eruption
- Flamethrower
- Sludge Bomb
- Hidden Power Grass / Earth Power
Modest with Overheat>Flamethrower is also an option to do the things calced below (credit to Jaroda for collecting them and posting them in the analysis' thread) v.s. Lati switch-ins, namely 2HKOing Latios with Steam Eruption after Stealth Rock to allow it to only switch in once and to be forced to Roost if it wants to come in on it again--giving Tar a completely free switch-in to trap it. That said, tying with adamant Breloom and losing to jolly Bisharp sucks so it's not worth it unless your team handles them really well already.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Overheat vs. 232 HP / 4 SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 300-354 (83.5 - 98.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Overheat vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-B: 382-450 (97.6 - 115%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Overheat vs. 248 HP / 108 SpD Mandibuzz: 327-385 (77.3 - 91%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Overheat vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Clefable: 379-447 (96.4 - 113.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Overheat vs. 96 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-T: 255-301 (78.9 - 93.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Overheat vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Sableye: 309-364 (101.6 - 119.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Overheat vs. 252 HP / 56 SpD Reuniclus: 375-442 (88.4 - 104.2%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Overheat vs. 248 HP / 180+ SpD Zapdos: 288-339 (75.1 - 88.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Overheat vs. 16 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gardevoir: 270-318 (96 - 113.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Overheat vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-B: 382-450 (97.6 - 115%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Overheat vs. 248 HP / 108 SpD Mandibuzz: 327-385 (77.3 - 91%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Overheat vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Clefable: 379-447 (96.4 - 113.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Overheat vs. 96 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-T: 255-301 (78.9 - 93.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Overheat vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Sableye: 309-364 (101.6 - 119.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Overheat vs. 252 HP / 56 SpD Reuniclus: 375-442 (88.4 - 104.2%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Overheat vs. 248 HP / 180+ SpD Zapdos: 288-339 (75.1 - 88.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Overheat vs. 16 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gardevoir: 270-318 (96 - 113.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Thanks bud. Wouldn't fire blast be a better option over flamethrower?
What Bludz said. If it had been any item other than Choice Specs I would have recommended Fire Blast, but with Specs the extra power really isn't needed in the same vein of Flamethrower>Fire Blast on Nidoking.
final question, is max hp investment instead of speed a viable option as it utilises volcanions bulk
No. There was a 172-ish (icr now) speed modest spread that was popular when it had just been released, but it's kinda bad in general and not worth it.
Why is starmie only B+? It has a great utility move in rapid spin, is a pretty decent offensive threat thanks to a good movepool and analytic. It can run a more defensive set as well with natural cure and reflect type. Moreover it is in a good speed tier.