I considered deleting this but I think it can be used as a nice example for posting etiquette here in the Viability Ranks.A+ to S
Here to bump this nom yet again... Explanation in previous pages.
I know, I was rushed when I posted this. Should have gave some explanation. Sorry for the inconvenience, just wanted to get my point across.I considered deleting this but I think it can be used as a nice example for posting etiquette here in the Viability Ranks.
tl;dr put effort into your writing instead of expecting discussion to just spontaneously start happening by writing a line or two.
- 1 liner posts are EXTREMELY discouraged, especially for a topic that has been brought up already.
- If a nomination went by unnoticed, especially one for an important rank like S rank, then it's probably for good reason. We have plenty of users who read every single post that goes through this thread and if nobody felt the need to make a comment on an important nom like this, it probably shouldn't happen. Not to say you can't bump a nom that happened a while ago, but this is the third instance of Megadino > S that I can recall in the past month.
- If you are bumping something, have the courtesy to include your reasoning in the post instead of telling people to find the reasoning themselves.
- Finally (and this isn't etiquette per say) but present your nomination to us. Your original post certainly had a line or two of reasoning, but it hardly touched on the the important parts of Mega Audino's impact on the metagame and why it deserves the single most important rank on the rankings.
Sorry if this came off as mean, by the way. I appreciate that you're trying to bring up a valid point for discussion, I just don't agree with how you went about it. I'm mostly trying to give some pointers to posters and let you know why this had to be the third time Mega Audino was brought up.
1. I think you're missing the point of Freeze-Dry. It's not just to hit Lanturn, its to hit every Water-type with a move that they're meant to resist. Having the ability to do that faster than other Ice-types is huge when you consider the speed tier of common Freeze-Dry targets: Ludicolo, Samurott, Prinplup, Kabutops, Poliwrath. Granted Jynx has the ability to outspeed all of those and deal with them in its own way, it often needs to be boosted to secure an OHKO or rely on Lovely Kiss to deal with these Pokemon. The whole point about Pelipper and Mantine is moot because Ice Beam hits those neutrally, again the whole point of Freeze-Dry is to hit targets that resist Ice Beam super effectively.I'm really surprised to see so much support behind vanilluxe and am going to back up Mar1onette here by arguing the contrary. I'm writing this from mobile so hopefully the organization isn't too awful.
Regarding ice cream's niches over the other ice types in this tier, mentioned are its powerful freeze dry, speed tier, and bulk. The problems I see with these arguements:
1. Freeze dry isn't even that relevant seeing how Aurorus and Jynx both have coverage options that suit the same purpose of hitting lanturn. LO earth power and psyshock both 2hko after rocks respectively. While freeze dry maybe decent for pelipper and mantine, neither are very common in this meta as we have an abundance of hazard control.
2. Vanilluxe's speed tier is okay at best. It misses out on the important base 80 mark which really hurts it. Relevant pokemon that under speed such as ludi and wrath also have ways around vanilluxe in swift swim and vacuum wave (in wrath's case). Vanilluxe also is often forced to run modest in order to sustain its power.
3. Vanilluxe's bulk isn't bad, but ice typing is ice typing after all. Because of its speed tier, its often forced to take hits, on top of sr weakness, its really not bulky at all.
Really the only important niche I can think of is explosion which is nice to get off a final heavy hit.
On top of the points I addressed above, vanilluxe is a rather one dimsional Mon, basically functioning as an all out attacker. You can run automize, but it doesn't really have many great coverage options to clean up late game.
Both Jynx and Aurorus have much more utility and can perform multiple roles. Aurorus can set up rocks, run specs, and even be physical. Jynx has access to the coveted lovely kiss, can function as an anti-lead, or wallbreak with nasty plot.
There's a reason why vanilluxe gets no usage on the ladder. Feel free to refute any of the points I made.
1. Many of the examples you give are very valid and I agree freeze dry does make more sense.1. I think you're missing the point of Freeze-Dry. It's not just to hit Lanturn, its to hit every Water-type with a move that they're meant to resist. Having the ability to do that faster than other Ice-types is huge when you consider the speed tier of common Freeze-Dry targets: Ludicolo, Samurott, Prinplup, Kabutops, Poliwrath. Granted Jynx has the ability to outspeed all of those and deal with them in its own way, it often needs to be boosted to secure an OHKO or rely on Lovely Kiss to deal with these Pokemon. The whole point about Pelipper and Mantine is moot because Ice Beam hits those neutrally, again the whole point of Freeze-Dry is to hit targets that resist Ice Beam super effectively.
2. Yeah Vanilluxe misses out on positive natured base 80s, but those aren't all that common. At first glance, most of the things in base 80 run neutral natures, with the only outstanding one that needs to be running +Spe being Colbur offensive Mesprit. I really don't think Vanilluxe needs to be running Modest for the record, in fact looking back on it I think the speed tier is absolutely perfect to be running +Spe in this metagame.
3. If you're allowing Vanilluxe to take hits, you're using it wrong (it shouldn't be coming in on things that are faster than it). I don't understand this argument at all, yeah Ice-typing sucks, but you're not using this Pokemon for any defensive purpose. And for the record the only Ice-type I think is splashable is Piloswine, mainly due to its typing not being complete shit. Jynx is incredibly tough to build with, which I'm sure anyone who's used it can attest to. I typically dislike building with Aurorus because it automatically gives you a Rock-type Pokemon that cannot deal with Normal- or Flying-type attackers, so you're either forced to compound weaknesses with another Rock-type or run a more niche defensive mon to supplement it.
4. Explosion isn't even that great of a niche, you're much better off running Ice Shard in the last slot for situations where you need to pick off Pokemon that outspeed you like Archeops, Swellow, etc.
5. One dimensional mons aren't automatically bad mons, I mean look at Tauros the thing runs the same set 90% of the time, that being Life Orb attacker, and its S rank. Occasionally you'll see people running CB or CS but they're just plain rare and often inferior to LO.
6. Yeah Aurorus has the ability to run different sets effectively, but you still deal with most variants the same way, and different sets by no means make up for its lackluster speed tier and defensive typing. The thing is a wallbreaker and thats about it, I've had success with SR Aurorus but I generally feel like any turn you're not firing off a Hyper Voice, Freeze-Dry, or Blizzard you're wasting a turn. Physical sets are good, but in general are easier to prepare for and lose most value after they've been revealed.
7. The reason Vanilluxe gets little to no usage on ladder is because people look at it and say "hey, look its the ice cream cone! this mon is shit haha!" it doesn't help that it doesnt bring anything to the table defensively and most users struggle to build effective hyper offense teams with mons that require much skill to use. Jynx is one of the biggest threats to the metagame right now, but no one runs it because its so difficult to build with, that shouldnt be a reason to say its any less of a threat.
All that being said I'm still open to Vanilluxe dropping, I just don't think those arguments are ones that are going to sway public opinion.
I mean, sure it's true Vanilluxe's Speed tier hinders it, but its purpose isn't to destroy offense. It outspeeds just about everything it needs to (which is almost every defensive Pokemon in the tier, as well as some offensive mons like Samurott and Ludicolo, as well as having priority (and yes, it is weak, but again it does what it needs to). I also think you're underestimating how much Ice Shard helps Vanilluxe at least be functional against offensive teams; at the very least I'd argue it does about as much as Life Orb Jynx or Snow Warning Aurorus. Vanilluxe can pick off stuff like Lilligant, Vivillon, and Archeops which are all huge threats to the more offensive teams that it's usually on.2. While the issue of whether to run netutral or +spe natures for certain mons is another topic for debate, I still believe Vanilluxe's speed tier is still pretty mediocre. Being outsped by most offensive mons in the meta is never good. One of the reasons why certain base 80's just as shiftry and kabu can afford to run neutral natures is because they have powerful priority that can be boosted with SD. In vanilluxe's case, like you said, ice shard is only useful for picking off certain weakened off targets and does pitiful damage outside of that.
Tanking priority and Pursuit is the main reason Vanilluxe's Defense matters. It's obviously not going to enjoy Tauros's Rock Climb or something, but being able to switch out against something like Skuntank without getting ~completely~ fucked is pretty important.3. I wasn't really saying Vanilluxe should be allowed to take hits, but it's more that likely that it'll often be forced to take hits because of its speed, taking away from the fact that it has okay natural bulk. I'm arguing that having slightly better defense in comparison to Jynx/Cryognal doesn't make it any more viable. I personally believe that sash Jynx is pretty spammable on teams, but I'm not the best builder, nor is that the issue at hand.
Just because a mon faces competition doesn't mean it's bad at what it does. It doesn't matter if Vanilluxe is predictable or not if it still wrecks almost everything with Freeze Dry + Ice Beam, which it does.5. While this is true, it's one-dimensional on top of having many other faults. Tauros can afford to be predictable because simply how good it is. This is not the case in ice cream's case. A reason why some mons are viable/better than others is due to how versatile they can be and be unpredictable in that sense (samu, mespirit, kfc, etc.)
Yes but Vanilluxe still has a distinct niche from other Ice-types which other posts have already gone over, and none of Aurorus's or Jynx's sets can do quite what it does.6. Well technically Aurorus has access to rock polish so it can patch up its speed somehow. I don't really understand the argument here. Just because aurorus can't perform certain roles as well as others doesn't mean it isn't viable/better in general to vanilluxe.
The whole "ice cream mon" thing was just an exaggeration lol, but usage should never be used as a reason to drop anyway. Why would Barbaracle and Carracosta be so high on the rankings when they're PU by usage?7. I find this silly. I don't think looks of a mon have ever swayed any serious player from using it or not, and this thread is a place for discussion for experienced players. Isn't hard to build with a contributing factor to why it should drop? Jynx in comparison is much harder to prepare for which is why it's so good.
if you "dont even know" then why are you nomming itKecleon B- ---> B
This fucker is annoying af at the moment. Its unique combo of moves allows it to... I dont even know I just find it good lol
strongly disagree. too matchup reliant, struggles against offense teams, god fucking awful defensive typing, increased usage of of its checks (pilo and yama), and definitely not on the same level as other a+ mons like archeops or audino. you fail to mention how aurorus is really hard to fit on a team without setting out to build around it, due to its shit defensive typing, the increased usage of its biggest checks (pilo and yama), the balance teams it once broke easily taking a more offensive turn. like it has 0 switchins, yeah, but neither does golurk lol. i suppose you could argue that it has some defensive utility in being able to check swellow and rotoms, however its quite a poor one considerint its easily worn down. you also neglect to mention how anything has changed for aurorus to make it better.Aurorus A- ---> A+
This I have more to say for. Both its refrigerate raw power and snow warning blizzard sash/sturdy/weather breaking set are extreamely effective in this meta. I think its comparable to sawk in some ways in terms of it being one of the most unstoppable wallbreakers in the tier. Not only that but itis the perfect combo with any physical attack as it can basically OHKO any physical wall people bring out. The problem with it is obviously the fact that its typing doesnt allow it to have any backup use as bulky offense but quite honestly its one of the most consistantly threatening mon that we have. 58 speed tier is obv not gr8 but currently we have many things at 50 making it actually quite fun. Ice types r so fun rn and I would argue better then usual.
Calcs:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Aurorus Psychic vs. 0 HP / 128 SpD Assault Vest Hariyama: 226-266 (52.6 - 62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Aurorus Psychic vs. 0 HP / 128 SpD Assault Vest Hariyama: 195-231 (45.4 - 53.8%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Refrigerate Aurorus Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Eviolite Rhydon: 382-452 (92.2 - 109.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Snow Warning Aurorus Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Eviolite Rhydon: 359-424 (86.7 - 102.4%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Aurorus Freeze-Dry vs. 40 HP / 216+ SpD Lanturn: 242-289 (60.3 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Aurorus Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Probopass????: 328-390 (101.5 - 120.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Aurorus Flash Cannon?????? vs. 236 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Piloswine: 208-247 (52 - 61.7%)
no opinionArticuno B- ---> B+
Backing up aladyyn's nom ful Cuno effectively runs life orb, freeze dry, hurricane, roost, hp fighting/substitute. 85 speed tier is fun af and it hits fun amount of pokemon that we use. Here are calcs:
252 SpA Life Orb Articuno Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Mawile: 152-179 (50.1 - 59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Articuno Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 128 SpD Assault Vest Hariyama: 315-374 (73.4 - 87.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Articuno Freeze-Dry vs. 40 HP / 208+ SpD Lanturn: 218-257 (54.3 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Articuno Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vileplume: 413-486 (116.6 - 137.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Articuno Hidden Power Fighting vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Aurorus: 296-354 (76.4 - 91.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Articuno Hidden Power Fighting vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Probopass: 198-234 (65.1 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
again, what has changed? i mean, if i were to make a case for kecleon rising itd probably mention how the advent of the mixed set takes advantage of the high usage of seed/costa/plume/rhydon, making it a great partner for tons of physical mons, particularly kanga or samurott. but i really dont really see what youre getting at or what reasoning you really have other than "i like this mon it hits hard give it a bump"Kecleon B- ---> B
Ha! You thought I would not back up my kecleon suggestion! Alright so the programed response about pup is that it doesnt work bt ngl I've been harmed by a few pup kecleons because they r so damn bulky and have access to drain punch.
Kecleon @ Life Orb / Expert Belt
Ability: Protean
EVs: 236 HP / 252 Atk / 20 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Drain Punch
- Sucker Punch
- Aerial Ace / Double-edge
- Power-Up Punch / Shadow Sneak
Keep in mind in adition to this set kecleon often runs grass knot/fire blast life orb to lure the crap out of quag plume and seed. It can run stealth rocks with coverage to wreck xatu (ice punch/shadow sneak/rock slide).
Assuming it runs the first set you have to think of it as a fighting type. Aerial ace is nice to hit plume / fighting types that hurt kecleon. However it's a very weak move in comparison to others which is why double edge could be perfered. In that case shadow sneak is nice so it can change to ghost type and be temporarily immune to fighting types (and normal types). Aerial ace is only nice for the se damage and protean at once. I feel like protean somehow adds to the viability of pup but that might just be because I have more problems with kecleon then kanga XD idk.
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honestly if u did that wall of calcs on mobile id be genuinely impressedAll of my suggestions are based on how I've seen these mons perform in the current meta XD Also I wrote this from phone so plz dont judge too much...
if you "dont even know" then why are you nomming it
strongly disagree. too matchup reliant, struggles against offense teams, god fucking awful defensive typing, increased usage of of its checks (pilo and yama), and definitely not on the same level as other a+ mons like archeops or audino. you fail to mention how aurorus is really hard to fit on a team without setting out to build around it, due to its shit defensive typing, the increased usage of its biggest checks (pilo and yama), the balance teams it once broke easily taking a more offensive turn. like it has 0 switchins, yeah, but neither does golurk lol. i suppose you could argue that it has some defensive utility in being able to check swellow and rotoms, however its quite a poor one considerint its easily worn down. you also neglect to mention how anything has changed for aurorus to make it better.
also why are some calcs specs and others are life orb.
no opinion
again, what has changed? i mean, if i were to make a case for kecleon rising itd probably mention how the advent of the mixed set takes advantage of the high usage of seed/costa/plume/rhydon, making it a great partner for tons of physical mons, particularly kanga or samurott. but i really dont really see what youre getting at or what reasoning you really have other than "i like this mon it hits hard give it a bump"
honestly if u did that wall of calcs on mobile id be genuinely impressed
e: fixed tags
You might want to also address the mediocre base power of most of Electivire's moves, which does hinder its otherwise excellent offensive stats. Also address its poor base Speed, as you are either stuck with a Scarf and lose out on its excellent coverage, or have to settle for a Pokemon in the rather crowded base 95 Speed tier.Electivire B ----->B+! As far as NU Pokes go, I always find Electivire underrated. First, the elephant in the room; that attack stat. Rivaling even OU Pokemon like Garchomp, TTar, and even Metagross, Electivire can hit like a truck, especially since it doesn't have to be locked into a move, because of its excellent coverage. Able to hit 13 different types super effectively with certain sets, and expert belt adding even more power to this, oftentimes Electivire doesn't even need to worry about having STAB (wild charge still is nice to have, though). But it isn't just limited to expert belt; it also serves as a nice revenge killer when holding choice scarf. Often, the biggest issue I hear about Electivire is its, I'll admit, meh defenses. But you could also slap on an assault vest and it can start taking hits like a champ, surviving Fire Blasts from Magmortar with no investment needed. Choice Scarf Haunter? No problem. Offensive Vileplume? No problem. I'm not trying to suggest that Electivire is some God of Pokemon, but it has versatility, making it able to shake things up, and its ability in Motor Drive can often lead to a clean sweep. Please consider the presence that Electivire can bring on to any battle, and why opponents should always have it in the back of their head when building a team.
As noted in WhiteDMist's post, the main problem that the majority of the community has with Evire is that it has to rely on low base power moves for coverage, which its high attack stat doesn't remedy, seeing as it can't afford to go adamant/modest in the crowded 90-95 speed tiers. So let's get to the rest of the post. Assault Vest Evire is not going to get it to B+, simply because it extends the aforementioned issue infinitely. Now you are making Evire even weaker due to foregoing a boosting item, for an assault vest, which really doesn't help Evire beat its checks. Evire needs to muscle through its checks, most of which retaliate with physical moves, rendering an assault vest useless (see all bulky grounds in the tier). It isn't a matter of needing bulk, as Evire is an offensive Pokemon that can use a respectable speed tier to challenge teams. Motor Drive is also really not the better all purpose ability. Vital Spirit makes Evire a sleep absorber, meaning you don't have to lose a wink of sleep over being prone to getting bagged by sleep. But even that isn't justification enough for its rise. The only way Evire is muscling through its checks is with the special set, which is not really even a lure anymore because the meta is aware that Evire needs this. And even that set fails to net some crucial KOs. Evire is still underwhelming.Electivire B ----->B+! As far as NU Pokes go, I always find Electivire underrated. First, the elephant in the room; that attack stat. Rivaling even OU Pokemon like Garchomp, TTar, and even Metagross, Electivire can hit like a truck, especially since it doesn't have to be locked into a move, because of its excellent coverage. Able to hit 13 different types super effectively with certain sets, and expert belt adding even more power to this, oftentimes Electivire doesn't even need to worry about having STAB (wild charge still is nice to have, though). But it isn't just limited to expert belt; it also serves as a nice revenge killer when holding choice scarf. Often, the biggest issue I hear about Electivire is its, I'll admit, meh defenses. But you could also slap on an assault vest and it can start taking hits like a champ, surviving Fire Blasts from Magmortar with no investment needed. Choice Scarf Haunter? No problem. Offensive Vileplume? No problem. I'm not trying to suggest that Electivire is some God of Pokemon, but it has versatility, making it able to shake things up, and its ability in Motor Drive can often lead to a clean sweep. Please consider the presence that Electivire can bring on to any battle, and why opponents should always have it in the back of their head when building a team.
I'm going to have to disagree. Even with protean its underwhelmingly weak, being required to run Gunk Shot to even have a chance at getting past common bulky pokemon such as Mega Audino, Hariyama, and Lanturn. And when it does, it takes a lot away from its investment in its amazing special coverage, thus making it difficult to take advantage of due to the lower power. Its speed tier isn't really that great in a tier crowded with pokemon at +100 speed and most of the mons slower than it can take at least 1 hit easily. You could argue that it can use Protean to make predictions with resistances and stuff but tbh with how frail it is from my experience it absolutely doesn't matter. At the end of the day its a niche pokemon that is completely outclassed by Simipour as a sweeper and Samurott as a wallbreaker.I feel as if Frogadier should be higher ranked to at least B because it has a lot of capabilities, for example T-Spikes and Tuant it can wallbreak extremely well. It has way more coverage than most people think and it even gets protean and can use that well.
Frogadier's problem is it isn't all that strong, even with Protean. It's also really frail, which usually isn't usually an issue for fast offensive pokemon, but 97 speed just doesn't cut it against top offensive threats like Pyroar, Archeops, Tauros, and Swellow. Additionally, Sucker Punch (and almost any other form of priority) chunks it hard, and it's everywhere in the meta atm. Jynx has these issues as well, but it has Lovely Kiss to neuter checks and counters as they switch in and it can boost with Nasty Plot (while also being able to take a weaker special hit). It's also a LOT stronger than Frogadier. Frogadier isn't total trash due to T Spikes and decent offensive presence, but it is in no way worthy of B rank. It can wallbreak decently, but it just doesn't quite have the speed or power to cut it as a big threat in this meta.I feel as if Frogadier should be higher ranked to at least B because it has a lot of capabilities, for example T-Spikes and Tuant it can wallbreak extremely well. It has way more coverage than most people think and it even gets protean and can use that well.
NoRhydon for S +? rank or any higher rank S Why? Simple this pokemon has a very good amount of attack and defense and with Eviolite receive a very good increase in defense statistics and to top it accesses booster movements with which can destroy entire teams with their set of double dance, this pokemon is a good check of xatu, scyter, among many others pokemon jynx this tier is also a decent rock stealth setter despite having a very useless abilitys if the pokemon has access to the types megahorn grass and other psychic with whom you can destroy them easily despite not having stab this pokemon I see very broken for the tier that is why I think it would be better to place it in a more than S rank also to supplement this information this pokemon can check other pokemon as Mawile, Skuntank , Malamar , Musharna, garbodor, Pinsir and pyroar. Rhydon is broken .....