On The Radar Vol. 2 [See Post #336]

[Deleted User 229847]

I still can't see the inherent problem with being viable in OU while having subpar stats. The argument makes no sense whatsoever, who decides a threshold of stats that define an OU mon? It doesn't matter if diglett has less than 300 total stat points or not, the problem here is with the supposedly uncompetitiveness of the trapping abilities. I am not going to argue about magnet pull anymore, but given that we decided to accept it in earlier gens as part of a mon that only traps a small handful of pokemon, I do believe that diglett and trapinch can join the same niche.

In fact I don't think that diglett and trapinch will ever be a problem in Gen 8, even if they were to start being used. Furthermore, it's quite obvious that if I am against a diglett and trapinch ban, I'm fine with them being viable in the tier. We are trying to preserve arena trap on a few users because we believe diglett and trapinch can fullfil the niche without being oppressive, detrimental, unhealthy... choose your favourite adjectives. Obviously my original argument is and has always been that we either ban all of them or the few problematic ones, so I'm okay with dugtrio leaving the tier but absolutely against trapinch and diglett leaving it too.

 

[peng]

I think many of us are just curious where you draw the line though.

Very clearly, Dugtrio being able to consistently 1v1 most Tyranitar, Excadrill, Toxapex, Clefable, Sylveon, Toxtricity etc is an issue. On top of this, its able to deal minimum 50% to most other grounded Pokemon with CB Earthquake, and in some cases, a lot more than that with Sash+Reversal. The question is, how many Pokemon have to move across from that "definitely beaten" to the "chipped for 50%" list before you consider it not broken anymore?

My personal belief is that the idea of "free" set-ups and "free" damage via Shadow Tag and Arena Trap is busted. We always think of this in terms of switching in on a full-health Pokemon and outright removing it, but to me Arena Trap is broken beyond this. To me, Dugtrio isn't broken just because it 1v1s Clefable, but also because I can't let anything fall below 50% without it getting removed by Dugtrio at will. The intial gameplan at team preview may be to trap Clefable for my Dragapult to do damage, but beyond that having Dugtrio also means that if my opp drops their Seismitoad to below 50% then I have Rotom-H sweep ready to go. Its not all about OHKOing things. Whilst Diglett isn't as strong, I still think the free 35% (banded) it can deal to grounded stuff is dumb and is a teambuilding crutch that always has and will get abused in some way. And thats not even factoring in the Sash/Sub + Reversal set, which can even beat Ferrothorn on a Leech Seed vs Power Whip mindgame. This is where Diglett differs from Magnezone - I can stick Diglett on a team to beat Toxtricity but if it has Shed Shell then I can change my plan midgame and still remove a weakened Seismitoad. Magnezone doesn't offer that - if you Shed Shell your steel then you are definitively Magnezone-proof.

I just want to point one last thing out and thats that people hugely overstate how "weak" Diglett is. Just bear in mind that back in gens 5 and 6, Dugtrio had a lower base attack (hit 259 with jolly, which it had to run for the plethora of base 108-115s) and it was enough to get its job done. Due to the lower overall speed of Gen 8, you can easily get away with using Adamant Diglett and beat everything you'd want bar +speed excadrill - Adamant Diglett hits 229 attack which is only ~12% weaker than old school Dugtrio. I know we shouldn't really be comparing things across generations but just wanted to point out that, with their metagame-relevant natures, Gen 8 Diglett hits approximately as hard as Gen 5/6 Dugtrio.

 

[Curtain]

Btw all these arguments against diglett and trapinch are just theorymon, right now they have shown little to no usage. That is mainly because of dugtrio true, but still we cannot see their actual impact on the metagame until they become the only alternative avaiable.
What I think is best is to ban dugtrio, via suspect or quickban I don't care, and then see how the meta develops from there. If these mons ever turn out to be problematic we can then take action.
2 weeks of suspect are simply not enough to understand their full impact, and we have no reason to rush things.

 

[volx757]

I still can't see the inherent problem with being viable in OU while having subpar stats. The argument makes no sense whatsoever, who decides a threshold of stats that define an OU mon? It doesn't matter if diglett has less than 300 total stat points or not, the problem here is with the supposedly uncompetitiveness of the trapping abilities. I am not going to argue about magnet pull anymore, but given that we decided to accept it in earlier gens as part of a mon that only traps a small handful of pokemon, I do believe that diglett and trapinch can join the same niche.

In fact I don't think that diglett and trapinch will ever be a problem in Gen 8, even if they were to start being used. Furthermore, it's quite obvious that if I am against a diglett and trapinch ban, I'm fine with them being viable in the tier. We are trying to preserve arena trap on a few users because we believe diglett and trapinch can fullfil the niche without being oppressive, detrimental, unhealthy... choose your favourite adjectives. Obviously my original argument is and has always been that we either ban all of them or the few problematic ones, so I'm okay with dugtrio leaving the tier but absolutely against trapinch and diglett leaving it too.

If diglett and trapinch were used successfully in ORAS to do the same thing as dug, what makes you think they won't ever be a problem in this meta where power levels are overall lower on all fronts? It is all theorymon (except the replays of diglett and calcs showing it can get KOs that dug does) til dug gets banned or we have a suspect with dug not allowed on the ladder, BUT the theory and history does not support the points you're making.

You also seem to contradict yourself, sometimes saying diglett is so weak and won't make an impact in OU, then other times saying you're hapy for diglett to be OU viable and you want to preserve its place in the tier. I feel like you need to pick one or the other here. A mon can't be both too weak for OU and also hold a valuable niche in OU.

 

[Nugget]

Why not quickban Dugtrio and suspect Arena Trap later on? A lot of the conversation around the difference between banning Dugtrio and banning AT is predicated upon the viability of alternate Arena Trap users. I don't think very many people are in favor of keeping Dugtrio right now and I am inclined to agree. If it's quickbanned then we will see the real viability of Diglett and Trapinch in OU.

I do think trapping abilities (outside of that one trapping ability we don't talk about which I actually think is quite reasonable) are inherently overpowered as they completely shut down the most basic defensive play in the game (switching). However I also know for a fact there is theoretically a power too low to abuse Arena Trap at all. Imagine using a level 1 Diglett. This is an exaggeration of course but it stands to reason that there exists a point on this continuum of Pokémon power from lvl 1 Diglett to lvl 100 Dugtrio where the mon goes from "cannot use Arena Trap at all" to "can use Arena Trap to gamebreaking effect."

I think there might be a point between unusable trapper and broken trapper where a mon could be usable in OU (or lower) and not be broken. I'm personally not sure if Diglett and Trapinch are usable or broken or somewhere in between. My gut is that Diglett is still quite powerful on certain teams and are probably enough to get a ban, like it did in previous gens. I think Trapinch will probably not make as much of an impact and if the way things played out was Dugtrio and Diglett getting a ban and Trapinch staying I think it could be cool. (I don't think this is likely.)

It is not really enough to say that, "well, Diglett and Trapinch were OP in previous gens and this meta is weaker overall" because that does not really account for the fact that although the statline of mons in this gen is certainly lower the meta is also substantially different. You don't fight the average bulk of mons in gen 8, you fight a team of the 6 mons your opponent thinks will beat the mons you are likely to bring. To base your appraisal of Trapinch/Diglett on their performance in different metas is, ultimately, theorymon. Same for calcs with these mons quite frankly. Yeah you're hitting Clefable for like 40% or whatever but what is it costing you to give up a team slot on Diglett and how does that impact your ability to chip that Clefable down to 40% in the first place?

tl;dr
most people feel that Dugtrio is broken in this meta, and many suspect that diglett and trapinch are as well but we could never really know for sure unless dugtrio is gone. Quickban Dugtrio and suspect diglett and trapinch based on their performance in a non-Dugtrio metagame. It's a question of how thorough we want to be when testing elements of a metagame.

I would also be fine with an Arena Trap quickban lol

 

[Talpr0ne]

From a purely philosophical policymaking perspective, I think it makes little sense to treat Shadow Tag and Arena Trap like two completely distinct entities, since they have largely the same effect. Sure, Arena Trap can't stop airborne Pokémon, but they aren't an especially large portion of the metagame (9 out of 35 airborne Pokémon in OU, many of which would not be realistic trap targets for Dugtrio anyway, such as Corviknight). Bottom line is, because of how similar the two abilities are, either both are inherently uncompetitive or neither is, and they demand the exact same treatment. Either we ban Arena Trap as a whole or we ban individually Gothitelle, Gothorita and Wobbuffett(?), since Gothita and Wynaut are even weaker than Diglett and Trapinch. Doing anything else would be nonsensical and hypocritical.

 

[Moonballer]

Haven't gotten around to testing it yet but I noticed that Trapinch gets First Impression.

At this point, I think we are just arguing in circles until something happens. I think we either Suspect Diglett and Trapinch in a Dugtrio-free ladder, or just quick-ban arena trap. Although it doesn't seem OP that Diglett is a guaranteed 35% damage, Trapinch seems like it could do damage under the right circumstances, and while I think a trapper who can only trap moderately to severely weak mons is interesting, it does strike me as fundamentally uncompetitive.

 

[Thunder Pwoell]

truly a stale slate at this point; we all agree to quick ban arena trap. which is great. next;

I’m thinking about banning the dracovish and aegislash tbh, especially the former b/c it's warp on the metagame is absolutely atrocious and to argue otherwise is to just be actively lying

 

[Yung Dramps]

Yeah, I think it's time for a verdict to be reached on Arena Trap by the council. There's not gonna be any more substantial discussion from what I can see.

Upon further contemplation, I don't think the prior proposed compromise suspect test is really necessary. Arena Trap and Shadow Tag are no different, so we should not treat them differently.

 

[Deleted User 229847]

I will still sustain the same argument as always, arena trap should not be quickbanned, ban dugtrio and eventually act on diglett and trapinch down the line. Trapping is obviously not uncompetitive given past tiering decisions, anyone who disagrees is ignoring the blatant truth. There is 0 evidence here that diglett and trapinch (and even gothita to be quite honest, but that's another matter) could pose a concrete problem for the metagame. Again, this is factual evidence, not theorymoning which is always frowned upon by the community (and a weak argument in metagame discussions all around) but here is used to justify an unjust ban.

I agree that we should look at aegi (and hydreigon) but I'd rather ban dracovish given his insane overcentralization and lack of true counters.

 

[Thunder Pwoell]

I will still sustain the same argument as always, arena trap should not be quickbanned, ban dugtrio and eventually act on diglett and trapinch down the line. Trapping is obviously not uncompetitive given past tiering decisions, anyone who disagrees is ignoring the blatant truth. There is 0 evidence here that diglett and trapinch (and even gothita to be quite honest, but that's another matter) could pose a concrete problem for the metagame. Again, this is factual evidence, not theorymoning which is always frowned upon by the community (and a weak argument in metagame discussions all around) but here is used to justify an unjust ban.

I agree that we should look at aegi (and hydreigon) but I'd rather ban dracovish given his insane overcentralization and lack of true counters.

honestly, I’m sick of this played out non argument of yours. if you truly wanna see what they can do, either be better at the game and get higher on the ladder so that you actually do run into said teams, or look at the past threads and replays to see it happen. this is not something that's shocking nor out of the ordinary. this has happened before; do better.

 

[Finchinator]

Dracovish is nowhere near banworthy and changing the topic is not your job Thunder Pwoell

Also stop being an asshole to people, literal last warning

I’ve reported the consensus of the thread to the council and I am personally ready to proceed, but there are still discussions to have.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

I just want to express that one of the two choices here will likely result in us having this exact same discussion at the end of the year. We know that Heatran, Chansey, etc. are coming back, which will absolutely result in both Diglett and Trapinch making their way in.
Sure, call it theorymonning, as that's what it is, but we know it's true.
Arena Trap is the problem, and we can ban Duggy now, and "wait and see" and likely have this same discussion at the end of the year. Or we can just remove a noncompetitive ability from the metagame like we have for the last 3 generations.

 

[Curtain]

Arena Trap is the problem

But why tho? Why arena trap is the problem?
If it is beacuse it prevents you from switching, the same should apply to others trapping ability as well as moves that trap.
If the problem is instead that it traps too many mons then dugtrio should be treated differently from diglett and trapich as the two babies can trap reliably a far smaller pool of mon.

If the second hypothesis is true, that makes dugtrio + arena trap the problem and therefore it should be dealt with the same as we did with darm + gorilla tactics, gren + protean, blaziken + speed boost and so on.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

But why tho? Why arena trap is the problem?

I'm not repeating 5 pages worth of discussion on this.
And we have removed abilities that fit this description, see Shadow Tag.
And you cannot compare moves to abilities. One the opponent can switch into a reliable answer to while the other they are prevented from it.
Are we really unable to differentiate between taking a turn to trap leaving room for counterplay and instantly trapping and completely removing counterplay?
If you don't know "why arena Trap is the problem" I'd suggest going to page 14 and reading damn near every response since the announcement.

 

[Talpr0ne]

But why tho? Why arena trap is the problem?
If it is beacuse it prevents you from switching, the same should apply to others trapping ability as well as moves that trap.
If the problem is instead that it traps too many mons then dugtrio should be treated differently from diglett and trapich as the two babies can trap reliably a far smaller pool of mon.

If the second hypothesis is true, that makes dugtrio + arena trap the problem and therefore it should be dealt with the same as we did with darm + gorilla tactics, gren + protean, blaziken + speed boost and so on.

Trapping is not uncompetitive unto itself. Automatic and near-universal trapping is.

 

[Curtain]

I'm not repeating 5 pages worth of discussion on this.
And we have removed abilities that fit this description, see Shadow Tag.
And you cannot compare moves to abilities. One the opponent can switch into a reliable answer to while the other they are prevented from it.
Are we really unable to differentiate between taking a turn to trap leaving room for counterplay and instantly trapping and completely removing counterplay?
If you don't know "why arena Trap is the problem" I'd suggest going to page 14 and reading damn near every response since the announcement.

Mine was a rethoric question to which I gave two logical possible outcome.
If the problem is the trapping mechanic in itself then arena trap is not different from other ways of trapping, they all prevents switching, and if that's is deemed to be uncompetitive the more logical solution is to get rid of the mechanic as a hole.
But you mention trapping moves saying they have more counterplay, implying that not all forms of trapping are uncompetitive (to which I can agree), so if this is true why three different mons (dugtrio, diglett, trapinch) should receive the same treatment.
My point is that If not all ways of trapping are uncompetitive the more logical solution is to treat them on a case by case basis, and so by banning only the things that are actualy problematic.
I believe this should also apply to shadow tag but I didn't mention it cause it's not the topic right now.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

Mine was a rethoric question to which I gave two logical possible outcome.
If the problem is the trapping mechanic in itself then arena trap is not different from other ways of trapping, they all prevents switching, and if that's is deemed to be uncompetitive the more logical solution is to get rid of the mechanic as a hole.
But you mention trapping moves saying they have more counterplay, implying that not all forms of trapping are uncompetitive (to which I can agree), so if this is true why three different mons (dugtrio, diglett, trapinch) should receive the same treatment.
My point is that If not all ways of trapping are uncompetitive the more logical solution is to treat them on a case by case basis, and so by banning only the things that are actualy problematic.
I believe this should also apply to shadow tag but I didn't mention it cause it's not the topic right now.

You're making an argument with a point no one is trying to make. Trapping on its own is not necessarily noncompetitive. Infestation is not noncompetitive as it requires a turn of set up leaving room for counter play. When I bring in Durant, regardless of whether or not I Infestation you can switch out and into something that threatens my Durant. That is counterplay. The same cannot be said about Arena Trap.

There is a VERY distinct difference between trapping with a move and trapping with an ability. One is instant, the other requires a turn of set up and allows for the opponent to switch out before it is trapped. I would stop trying so hard to lessen the impact of Arena Trap by trying to say it's in the same realm as Fire Spin...

It's very difficult to take serious.

 

[Curtain]

I would stop trying so hard to lessen the impact of Arena Trap by trying to say it's in the same realm as Fire Spin...

Sorry but when did I say that? I said all ways of trapping are different from eachother, as well as dutrio is different from diglet and trapinch

 

[KztxL7]

Sorry but when did I say that? I said all ways of trapping are different from eachother, as well as dutrio is different from diglet and trapinch

If the problem is the trapping mechanic in itself then arena trap is not different from other ways of trapping, they all prevents switching, and if that's is deemed to be uncompetitive the more logical solution is to get rid of the mechanic as a hole.

That basically you saying it.

Trapping is not an uncompetitive mechanic. At least when it comes with heavier limitations.

Magnet Pull traps 1 type and only 1 type.
And Trapping Moves require a turn of set up and a valuable moveslot.

Few people are going to complain about these unless someone finds a heavily abusable strat.

 

[Deleted User 229847]

Heavier limitations means the impossibility of practically trapping a set amount of pokemon.
Both diglet and trapinch have a way lower number of effective trapping targets thanks to their stat problems (speed, offensive stats).

You are treating arena trap as if you do concretely trap 65% of the OU tier which is just a lie, even more so if we consider how weaker diglett and trapinch are. Yes, i can trap vaporeon but that does not matter at all when I get deleted by a scald.

Given the fact that people here seem to agree that not all form of trappings are uncompetitive and that a serious limitation on the ability gives it the chance to survive in the OU meta without becoming an unhealthy presence, arena trap is not inherently flawed given its distributions. A ban on dugtrio should suffice.
And yes, heatran might have to start running shed shell. Why is that a problem exactly? It’s counterplay. I have to use shed shell on skarmory, toxapex, worry seed on ferrothorn...
On trapping moves I generally agree that they are too weak to be considered unless a strat gets discovered, but Pursuit was and (currently isn’t, thank god) insanely powerful given its quasi-trapping capabilities and its distribution.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

And yes, heatran might have to start running shed shell. Why is that a problem exactly? It’s counterplay. I have to use shed shell on skarmory, toxapex, worry seed on ferrothorn...

You see no issues with running Shed Shell on Heatran solely to avoid losing it to a Diglett or Trapinch?

Interesting. More power to ya.

 

[theotherguytm]

Sigh.
Once again I'd like to remind everyone that Trapinch's First Impression (or tank a hit and EQ) forces a revenge kill on over half the meta when they are weakened.
The same cannot be said of any other trapping effect in the game (bar shadow tag), as your opponent can simply switch out. So if you need a mon for the lategame and it is not a Ghost/Flying mon, you literally cannot afford to let it take attacks against teams with an Arena Trap mon. Which means benching your key mon for the matchup.
Also, how's this for fun and interactive gameplay:
I've taken to leading with Giga Drain Trapinch against teams with Toad, since looking at my team it makes sense for my opponent's to lead with Toad since it forces out more than half my team on paper and sets Rocks. Thus those poor souls who don't know that my Trapinch beats Toad lose their Vish check and Stealth Rocker on Turn 1 for nothing. They lose from Team Preview because they didn't know about some random one-step-up-from-meme set I thought of.
Clearly the type of gameplay we should be encouraging.

If it is beacuse it prevents you from switching, the same should apply to others trapping ability as well as moves that trap.

Literally, to everyone who thinks along these lines, ask for a Magnet Pull suspect when the DLC drops instead of trying to preserve this garbage.

Pursuit was and (currently isn’t, thank god) insanely powerful given its quasi-trapping capabilities and its distribution.

What's Pursuit?
No, for real, Pursuit doesn't exist anymore. Hence, you are correct in that it is totally fine with its current distribution.

 

[Deleted User 229847]

You see no issues with running Shed Shell on Heatran solely to avoid losing it to a Diglett or Trapinch?

Interesting. More power to ya.

You don't see a problem with quagsire stopping hawlucha? You don't see a problem with Torkoal being used in OU? What is this argument even? The pokemons are never inherently the problem, period. Diglett and trapinch trapping an higher stat pokemon should never be a problem because of the fact that they should be weak.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

You don't see a problem with quagsire stopping hawlucha? You don't see a problem with Torkoal being used in OU? What is this argument even? The pokemons are never inherently the problem, period. Diglett and trapinch trapping an higher stat pokemon should never be a problem because of the fact that they should be weak.

Do I really need to express the differences between these two situations?

Quagsire preventing a Pokemon from sweeping does not remove the Sweeper from play. It does not force the person using said sweeper into a corner with the ever present possibility that one wrong move can remove said sweeper. They simply have to play in a way to remove the Quagsire before sweeping.

Arena Trap does not work in the same way in the slightest. Without Shed Shell the user can make absolutely no wrong moves otherwise they risk losing an important Pokemon. The moment they do the Arena Trap Pokemon can remove it. So you can do two things. Make absolutely no mistakes, or run Shed Shell in EVERY battle for when you run into a DIGLETT on the enemy team...

We are seriously discussing running Shed shell SOLELY for the purpose of not dying to a god damned Diglett.

It's becoming increasingly difficult to think you guys are being serious.