On The Radar Vol. 2 [See Post #336]

[DialgaTheTimeLord]

The thing is that, at least the way me and the other pro-GT ban people see it, Gorilla Tactics IS the root of the problem for Darmanitan (the only user of the ability that currently exists) specifically. When forced to use Zen Mode it is not even close to being as overpowering and centralizing as the current Choice Scarf/Band sets are. The near total lack of defensive counterplay, the absurd damage output, that all comes down to Gorilla Tactics. I personally feel that it is far more arbitrary to ban Zen Darm when it is so blatantly not a problem and will be even less so after a GT ban when it won't even be able to use the surprise factor and constant threat of the GT sets to pull off its Belly Drum + Salac shenanigans.

Can we finally get some council members to weigh in on this debate? I think we've kinda reached an impasse and it would be best for them to throw their hat into the ring so we can maybe get somewhere.

Lower tier precedent is important because it gives a more complete look at the history and methodology of rulings. There are more tiers than OU with just as many valid balance concerns which necessitated bans. I'm against collateral mainly because I play lower tiers. So yes, do think "irrelevant" mons matter in OU rulings. Which is getting sidetracked since the argument here is that there is no collateral with GT. The discussion at hand isn't Protean dinging Kecleon, it's G-Darm being overpowered, GT being what makes it overpowered, Zen not being overpowered, no other mon having GT, and a discussion about a ruling that specifically targets the unhealthy aspect of Darm's role in the meta. People are arguing against this by bringing up Blaze Blaziken (complex), Protean instead of Greninja (collateral), and arbitrary ability power tiers (irrelevant since balance affects what actually exists, not theorymon).

So honestly I'm completely unconvinced by the arguments against a GT ruling. The best counter I can think of is setting a nerf precedent but that falls on its face when you realize the amount of factors that need to be in place for future arguments to gain relevancy like this one. A broken mon would need to have: 1. An ability that adds an extreme power boost, 2. A signature ability that nothing else gets, 3. A secondary ability to make an ability ban not just a mon ban with a different ruling, and 4. An unarguably unhealthy effect on the metagame caused by that ability.

Gorilla Tactics doesn't exist without Darm, Darm exists without Gorilla Tactics. Darm without GT isn't broken. Therefore GT is the issue. Seems like pretty simple logic. I'm kind of sick of the "inherently broken or balanced" argument. Look at what's actually around, not what could be theorymonned.

Fairy Aura and Dark Aura are strictly worse than Adaptability in singles, but manage to be stronger abilities in practice. Same for Arena Trap vs Shadow Tag in gen 5 -- the former was banned, but Shadow Tag is still legal. This has never been a problem for tiering policy, because distribution is an aspect of the ability, and being given to better Pokemon is something that makes an ability better. We ban things because of the actual problems they present in this metagame, not because of the problems they might theoretically pose if they had better distribution. It makes no sense to insist that OU uses Balanced Hackmons tiering policy, because we aren't playing Balanced Hackmons.

(For another, admittedly very facetious example: we don't ban Primordial Sea in tiers where Drizzle is banned "just for consistency" if nothing in the tier actually gets it. We accept that banning Primal Kyogre in UU accomplishes the same thing in practice.)




So what you're saying is that Shadow Tag is banworthy because it's broken on everything that gets it. This supports my point just as much as it counters it. I'll admit that the existence of a 30BST Pokemon with STag wouldn't mean we had to ban every STag Pokemon because a non-broken instance of the ability existed, though.

I can appreciate the difference between an ability being banned for being uncompetitive vs being banned for being overpowered, but I'm not convinced that it makes a difference in terms of how we should handle it. Generally, the reason we ban uncompetitive abilities outright and not overpowered ones is that their orthogonal angles of attack mean they produce similar metagame problems on their weaker users when the stronger users are removed. Gothita STag and Arena Trap Diglett are good examples of this.

I think your stance is that uncompetitive abilities are disallowable in isolation, but this is not consistent with how we have handled those abilities in the past. Heck, even in this generation, we didn't re-ban Moody just because it is conceptually uncompetitive. We banned it once it started producing regularly good results in high level play with the right roll. In the case of both Moody and STag, we saw the actual material effect on play before making a difference -- something which inevitably takes distribution into account to a degree, because the abilities will obviously only be used on things that can legally get them. In short, I think we have handled uncompetitive abilities differently because they tend to be problematic on every user, not because of a core difference in tiering philosophy.



Conversely, Galarian Darmanitan is good and fundamentally sound, but too good when paired with Gorilla Tactics.

The difference is that Gorilla Tactics is, by current legality, not capable of not coexisting with Darmanitan-G. Darmanitan, however, is capable of not coexisting with Gorilla Tactics, and is probably not overpowered when it does.



I don't think these are good comparisons because none of these things are signature abilities/items. There is a choice between two sets of collateral damage for keeping the ban simple in your examples, and that's not a factor here. There would be absolutely zero difference, other than allowing Zen Mode Darmanitan, if we banned Gorilla Tactics, and I think that makes Gorilla Tactics something of a special case.

The fact that there are zero non-broken instances of Gorilla Tactics is important. Sure, it's that way because only one thing gets it, rather than because it would be broken if other things got it, but it's not at all self-evident to me that tiering philosophy should care *why* it's broken on everything that gets it.

I would also argue that Speed Boost is the root of the problem, rather than Blaziken -- it's inherently a very good ability, whereas Blaziken is a fairly mediocre Pokemon in isolation. Feel free to correct me here, but I think we chose to ban Blaziken because tiering philosophy is to prefer banning Pokemon in cases where conflict between two sets of collateral damage exists. So I think the lack of any collateral damage is important here: it's more like the Mewnium Z ban in UU last gen, which was banned for power level reasons and was banned instead of Mew because the non-broken element could be preserved by a simple ban with zero collateral.

I will accept, in the interests of fairness, that there might be precedent for not banning broken signature elements and banning the Pokemon instead. Marshadow springs to mind, but I don't know if Spectral Thief would have been considered for a ban if it wasn't for Smeargle existing. It probably would have been seen as a pet nerf, even though Spectral Thief offers unique functionality. I feel like moves and abilities/items ought to be treated differently here, but I readily accept that there are grounds to disagree.

Edit: another factor that just occurred to me. We tier certain things differently in order to tier different forms separately, such as banning Power Construct or certain Mega Stones. Is it worth doing the same to *allow* a specific form? Should we be trying to preserve Zen Mode Darmanitan-G as a different form, even if we would not otherwise try to preserve an alternative ability? Or does the fact that the form change is battle-conditional preclude this?

Basically, what qways said. Tiering policy dictates we ban the problematic Pokemon first, regardless of its distribution. Just because this wasn't done consistently in the past doesn't mean it's not supposed to be how it's done. Ability bans are only done in extreme and rare cases. Shadow Tag was such a case.

Rarycaris uncompetitiveness was absolutely cited as one of the reasons for the re-ban of Moody, because even though it lost Evasion, it was still entirely random and unpredictable to an extreme degree. It's even in the official post about the ban. That's why the ability was banned regardless of the tiers the ability-holders are in, while the only abuser in OU was Glalie. Nothing about Gorilla Tactics itself is uncompetitive, and any logic you could try to do so would have to extend to Huge Power as well since it's a strict upgrade. Distribution, according to tiering policy, is NOT an exception, and before you cite Power Construct, may I remind you that said ability was banned only because it gave Zygarde access to, what was in essence, an entirely different Pokemon: Zygarde Complete. The form itself was what needed to be quickbanned, the ability was just the route to getting there. If Zen Mode was what we were discussing here, I would actually argue in favor of the ability being banned by the same reasoning. But that's not where we are.

Also, Fairy and Dark Aura are NOT "better in practice" in Singles, and I'd argue only situationally so in Doubles. They're simply on stronger Pokemon. If Xerneas and Yveltal had Adaptability instead, they'd be waaaay more powerful. Obviously they don't under normal circumstances, and their abilities still make them more powerful than with no ability at all, but the same can be said with nearly any ability, short of strictly inhibiting ones. It is Xerneas and Yveltal that are too problematic for OU, not their abilities directly, although their abilities help, and while they're more extreme than Galarian Darm, the same point can still be said. If, in the future, another Pokemon came along that had Gorilla Tactics, would we have to ban that Pokemon's use of Gorilla Tactics as well, even if it had worse stats, typing, and movepool? Probably not. Nothing about Gorilla Tactics would break said hypothetical future Pokemon or make it uncompetitive, and therefore the precedent set by banning Gorilla Tactics now with no foresight would be entirely useless. This is why tiering policy mandates we look to the Pokemon first. Shadow Tag, on the other hand, along with Arena Trap, proved itself time and again to be uncompetitive by its own very nature. This is why Shadow Tag was banned, and not individual mons like Wynaut and Gothitelle.

Shadow Tag's ban is an extreme exception to the rule related to an inherent flaw in said ability itself, as with Arena Trap, while Power Construct's ban was merely a side effect of having to ban Zygarde Complete. There is nothing inherently flawed with Gorilla Tactics, neither is there with Galar Darmanitan, but the two combined are too powerful, and Tiering Policy bans the mon first and foremost in all cases so that when new Pokemon roll around that also have said ability, that Pokemon won't lose access to said ability by extension.

 

[Zentrius]

in all honesty, i get the argument to try to keep zen-darmanitan unscathed from this mess by getting gorilla tactics banned instead of darmanitan-galar as a whole, but from an outsider point of view, if i was a new player getting into the game and looking at the banlist, i would be extremely confused as to why an ability (gorilla tactics) which is inferior in all aspects to another one (huge power, and im sure a case could be made for flare boost as well) is banned with the superior ablity still present in the metagame.

i dont like the argument that gorilla tactics is usable only by darmanitan-galar which is what breaks said mon and therefore should be banned instead as an argument to keep zen mode running around because, while neither one of those two things are problematic individually, the resulting combination of both is broken. i know you all are trying to be inclusive by saving another mon in the tier, but this is exactly the same situation as with greninja or aegislash in previous gens: what happens if we ban protean or king's shield ir oder to preserve torrent greninja or aegislash without stance change shenanigans? because neither of those things individually is inherently problematic. if it isnt problematic, it has no business being up for an individual suspect test instead of the resulting pokemon which uses one of those traits. and then you have people using the "but what if caterpie gets shadow tag??? im sure we wouldn't have to ban shadow tag in that case!!!" point as if that is some sort of counterargument as to why we should ban an ability instead of a pokemon which is...

my stand is to ban darmanitan as a whole. the combination of all traits of this pokemon is absurd in the current metagame.

 

[DialgaTheTimeLord]

in all honesty, i get the argument to try to keep zen-darmanitan unscathed from this mess by getting gorilla tactics banned instead of darmanitan-galar as a whole, but from an outsider point of view, if i was a new player getting into the game and looking at the banlist, i would be extremely confused as to why an ability (gorilla tactics) which is inferior in all aspects to another one (huge power, and im sure a case could be made for flare boost as well) is banned with the superior ablity still present in the metagame.

i dont like the argument that gorilla tactics is usable only by darmanitan-galar which is what breaks said mon and therefore should be banned instead as an argument to keep zen mode running around because, while neither one of those two things are problematic individually, the resulting combination of both is broken. i know you all are trying to be inclusive by saving another mon in the tier, but this is exactly the same situation as with greninja or aegislash in previous gens: what happens if we ban protean or king's shield ir oder to preserve torrent greninja or aegislash without stance change shenanigans? because neither of those things individually is inherently problematic. if it isnt problematic, it has no business being up for an individual suspect test instead of the resulting pokemon which uses one of those traits. and then you have people using the "but what if caterpie gets shadow tag??? im sure we wouldn't have to ban shadow tag in that case!!!" point as if that is some sort of counterargument as to why we should ban an ability instead of a pokemon which is...

my stand is to ban darmanitan as a whole. the combination of all traits of this pokemon is absurd in the current metagame.

Thank you. This is what I've been trying to say the entire time, basically. Idk what else to add on to this, but this is basically part of why Tiering Policy is what it is, and Tiering Policy dictates since neither Darm nor Gorilla Tactics are broken on their own, Darm as a whole is the one that has to go.

 

[Karxrida]

I just got out of watching The Rise of Skywalker and I'm in a shitty mood so excuse any rudeness.

I can't believe the idea of banning Gorilla Tactics is even being entertained. What stuff are you guys smoking? Not only is GT not even overpowered in a vacuum like Moody/ST/Arean Trap have been (it's literally worse Huge Power), Abilities should only be banned if they're available to multiple Pokemon that can abuse them and thus be unambiguously singled out as the problematic element. We didn't ban Protean when Greninja was running around in Gen VI because Kecleon is a trashmon that couldn't fully take advantage of it--we banned Greninja because Greninja was clearly the problem. Ditto Gen V Blaziken with Speed Boost. Gorilla Tactics is only available to Darm, Darm is clearly a problem. QED. Besides, as previously mentioned by someone, we ban shit based on their best set.

Also Zen Mode is probably garbo (idk I haven't played since Gen VII) so I don't know why people even care enough to try and preserve it. UU would probably find some dumb excuse to ban it anyway.

 

[Empress Mobile]

I just got out of watching The Rise of Skywalker and I'm in a shitty mood so excuse any rudeness.

I can't believe the idea of banning Gorilla Tactics is even being entertained. What stuff are you guys smoking? Not only is GT not even overpowered in a vacuum like Moody/ST/Arean Trap have been (it's literally worse Huge Power), Abilities should only be banned if they're available to multiple Pokemon that can abuse them and thus be unambiguously singled out as the problematic element. We didn't ban Protean when Greninja was running around in Gen VI because Kecleon is a trashmon that couldn't fully take advantage of it--we banned Greninja because Greninja was clearly the problem. Ditto Gen V Blaziken with Speed Boost. Gorilla Tactics is only available to Darm, Darm is clearly a problem. QED. Besides, as previously mentioned by someone, we ban shit based on their best set.

Also Zen Mode is probably garbo (idk I haven't played since Gen VII) so I don't know why people even care enough to try and preserve it. UU would probably find some dumb excuse to ban it anyway.

I have to agree that without the surprise element of having to prepare for GT, Zen Mode is almost certain to be inconsistent, predictable garbage. It's already bordering on that anyway. It could occasionally catch an unprepared team off guard, which would just make it matchup reliant rather than a solid addition to the metagame. I don't doubt for a second it'd get banned from UU. Why do we want it in tierless limbo, occasionally used to cheese out a win against an unsuspecting player, especially when we have to compromise regular tiering policy to do so?

 

[Rarycaris]

So thinking about it more, I'm starting to change my mind on this.

I think the crucial difference between Gorilla Tactics and other banned elements isn't just competitiveness, or power in isolation, or "wouldn't be broken on new users". It seems totally inconsistent to me to say that an ability can't be made broken by distribution when we have clearly OP abilities like Wonder Guard and Huge Power that are only *not* broken because of their distribution. Rather, the banned non-Pokemon, non-RNG elements are broken because their power comes from the way they support the rest of your team, and thus function largely orthogonally to the Pokemon's other traits.

Shadow Tag and Arena Trap have always removed options, but their real power comes from the effect that letting them choose their matchups has. It's not just that it stops the opponent switching out, it's that the guaranteed kill with no counterplay allows you to remove elements that are problematic for the rest of your team. This is the main reason Dugtrio ended up being such a problem, and was in practice how Mega Gengar was normally used.

Similarly, weather abilities primarily support the rest of the team. The Pokemon that get them usually try to leave the field as soon as possible, to provide ongoing support. This is why they've historically been broken. I think, if Terrain Surges turned out to be broken, it would make more sense to ban the ability than ban the setter.

Baton Pass is another example of this, and I think calling it uncompetitive somewhat misses the point of its power level concern. It's repeatedly been a problem because it doesn't buff the power of things that get it -- it magnifies the power of other Pokemon, and thus scales on *their* power level rather than the user's. It obviously makes no sense to ban something for being too good as a Baton Pass recipient. The support it gives the rest of the team, letting them enter play with stat boosts and without dedicated moveslots, is the core issue.

This also gives a good answer for why Huge Power, Speed Boost, Protean and Wonder Guard aren't broken in OU. A Pokemon with a broken self-contained ability needs a lot of tools to exploit that, whereas a Pokemon with a broken support ability has a very low bar to be broken itself. That's why the latter tend to be broken on everything that gets them. (STag in particular only requires that the Pokemon has the opportunity to use one move, with a wide array of options.)

Gorilla Tactics obviously does not provide any meaningful support to the rest of the team beyond the general "punches holes in things", and thus fails the support ability criterion. Establishing a precedent of "ban the ability/move if it mostly makes other Pokemon better, and ban the Pokemon otherwise" makes a lot more sense to me than arbitrary decisions about which element is the problem in isolation, or consistency with a policy whose enforcement is historically inconsistent.

 

[chimp]

We ban things that are broken. Our job is not to preserve things for the sake of preserving them. Gorilla Tactics is not broken, Darmanitan-Galar is. Banning Gorilla Tactics is putting the cart before the horse and any discussion about whether or not it falls in line with tiering policy is superfluous. Consider the scenario if Game Freak were to release a new Pokemon with Gorilla Tactics the day after we hypothetically banned it. Just because no other Pokemon have an ability *now* does not make it more justifiable to get rid of it.

 

[100 Hoes Kaido]

So it's between banning a 'mon or to do a pointless complex ban in order to preserve something that would have no purpouse or ways to make the metagame better.

 

[p2]

No reason to ban gorilla tactics, ever. Personally unsure about Darm so far but it should 100% be suspected

 

[KztxL7]

Sorry, I don't see why Gorilla Tactics needs to stay when it exists on a single pokemon.\

It also "minimizes casualties" which is another important aspect of bans and tiering policy.

 

[chimp]

It also "minimizes casualties" which is another important aspect of bans and tiering policy.

No its not?
And besides, its just messy. I think simplicity should rule in this case, as in most cases. Imagine right after we ban Gorilla Tactics, Game Freak adds another Pokemon, on which GT is completely fine. We'd immediately have to re-think our tiering decision, unban GT, then re-ban Darmanitan-Galar.
I know that is a completely unlikely hypothetical, but it just doesn't make sense to ban Gorilla Tactics when it is completely not a broken ability at all. We should ban what is broken. Galar Darmanitan is (atleast considered by many to be) broken, and we need not to lose sight of the forest for the trees.

 

[Garchomp for president]

So thinking about it more, I'm starting to change my mind on this.

I think the crucial difference between Gorilla Tactics and other banned elements isn't just competitiveness, or power in isolation, or "wouldn't be broken on new users". It seems totally inconsistent to me to say that an ability can't be made broken by distribution when we have clearly OP abilities like Wonder Guard and Huge Power that are only *not* broken because of their distribution. Rather, the banned non-Pokemon, non-RNG elements are broken because their power comes from the way they support the rest of your team, and thus function largely orthogonally to the Pokemon's other traits.

Shadow Tag and Arena Trap have always removed options, but their real power comes from the effect that letting them choose their matchups has. It's not just that it stops the opponent switching out, it's that the guaranteed kill with no counterplay allows you to remove elements that are problematic for the rest of your team. This is the main reason Dugtrio ended up being such a problem, and was in practice how Mega Gengar was normally used.

Similarly, weather abilities primarily support the rest of the team. The Pokemon that get them usually try to leave the field as soon as possible, to provide ongoing support. This is why they've historically been broken. I think, if Terrain Surges turned out to be broken, it would make more sense to ban the ability than ban the setter.

Baton Pass is another example of this, and I think calling it uncompetitive somewhat misses the point of its power level concern. It's repeatedly been a problem because it doesn't buff the power of things that get it -- it magnifies the power of other Pokemon, and thus scales on *their* power level rather than the user's. It obviously makes no sense to ban something for being too good as a Baton Pass recipient. The support it gives the rest of the team, letting them enter play with stat boosts and without dedicated moveslots, is the core issue.

This also gives a good answer for why Huge Power, Speed Boost, Protean and Wonder Guard aren't broken in OU. A Pokemon with a broken self-contained ability needs a lot of tools to exploit that, whereas a Pokemon with a broken support ability has a very low bar to be broken itself. That's why the latter tend to be broken on everything that gets them. (STag in particular only requires that the Pokemon has the opportunity to use one move, with a wide array of options.)

Gorilla Tactics obviously does not provide any meaningful support to the rest of the team beyond the general "punches holes in things", and thus fails the support ability criterion. Establishing a precedent of "ban the ability/move if it mostly makes other Pokemon better, and ban the Pokemon otherwise" makes a lot more sense to me than arbitrary decisions about which element is the problem in isolation, or consistency with a policy whose enforcement is historically inconsistent.

Sorry, I don't see why Gorilla Tactics needs to stay when it exists on a single pokemon.\

It also "minimizes casualties" which is another important aspect of bans and tiering policy.

There are only two possible ways that we would be able to preserve Darmanitan-G in OU. Banning Gorilla Tactics or banning Darmanitan-G + Gorilla Tactics. Gorilla Tactics itself is by no means broken. Huge Power outclasses Gorilla Tactics in every way and nobody has called for a ban on Huge Power, so the problem lies with Darmanitan-G + Gorilla Tactics.

Banning Darmanitan-G + Gorilla Tactics is problematic because it creates a precedent where it is ok to ban the aspects of a Pokemon that make it broken in order to keep said Pokemon in a given tier. It creates needless complication, a whole load more work for tiering communities and is overall just messy tier policy.

The main idea behind arguments like this is: If we ban the aspects of a given Pokemon that render it broken, there would be no reason to ban it from OU. (Blaze Blaziken and Zen Mode Darm G are ideal examples).

Leaving aside the issue of how much control we ought to have on tiers with our policy decisions, who is to say we should only apply this policy to Pokemon that are Ubers. Dugtrio without Arena Trap would certainly not remain in OU. Does that mean PU should have Sand Veil Dugtrio because it would not in any way be broken in that metagame. Should RU be able to have a Frisk Grimsnarl? NU Keen Eye Pelipper? UU Limber Toxapex? Mold Breaker Hawlucha?

Furthermore, if our reasoning is that we want to ban the aspects of a Pokemon that make it broken, why shouldn't we ban "Pokemon + Item" or "Pokemon + Move" as well. Even if you disagree with this proposal on the terms of practicality, you are still supporting it with the logic of "but it wouldn't be broken if it didn't have X". Almost every Pokemon would drop at least a tier if they weren't allowed to use their STAB. This isn't the most ideal example, but Non-King's Shield Aegislash and Non-Thousand Arrows Zygarde would not have been banned to Ubers in their respective metagames. I won't even bother with coming up with drops you could propose if we banned specific EV combinations. We could come up with a gross amount of hypotheticals just by the nature of all the permeations this game has.

For me, the well being of the metagame is irrelevant in any discussion regarding complex bans of the nature of ban Pokemon + "Ability X". Even if Darmanitan-G Zen were to be the perfect most balanced and skillful Pokemon in the metagame, it would not outweigh implementing poor tiering policy let alone the fact that Darmanitan-G Zen is an irrelevant, deadweight in the current meta.

 

[moocows]

It seems to me that the two main arguments are as follows:

People who want to ban Gorilla Tactics alone argue that the Shadow Tag ban sets a precedent for banning abilities rather than Pokemon.

People who want to ban G-Darm argue that Tiering Policy dictates banning Pokemon rather than abilities in the vast majority of cases, and that the Shadow Tag ban was an extreme exception.

I still believe the former statement holds, and I remain unconvinced by the argument that Shadow Tag is somehow intrinsically uncompetitive in isolation. People have been making fun of my Shadow Tag Caterpie example, but no one's addressed the argument that all the Pokemon with Shadow Tag have movesets explicitly designed to take advantage of the ability. It's really not Shadow Tag that's broken, it's Shadow Tag with some combination of Encore/Trick/Taunt, etc. It's Shadow Tag considered alongside the Pokemon that has it.

That's not to say that I'm firmly against banning G-Darm, though. I would support the ban if the following holds: Tiering Policy dictates that we should prefer to ban Pokemon over abilities, and the Shadow Tag ban is inconsistent with that policy. If we ban G-Darm as a whole, then we should have also banned Gothitelle and Wobbuffet instead of Shadow Tag.

I certainly would like to see Zen Mode G-Darm remain in OU, but if the Shadow Tag ban is actually inconsistent with policy, then banning G-Darm would be the way to go. However, if the Shadow Tag ban is consistent, I'd have to argue for banning Gorilla Tactics alone.

I know this reasoning is rather pedantic, but honestly I feel like the whole "is Shadow Tag broken in a qualitatively different way from Gorilla Tactics" argument has gotten pretty pedantic. Also, there's essentially nothing at stake in this debate. All we're arguing about is whether we can keep Frisk/Competitive Gothitelle and ban Zen Mode G-Darm at the same time while staying consistent with tiering policy. So if y'all are right about Shadow Tag being different, we can ban G-Darm and still feel good about keeping Gothitelle. If it's not, then we should on principle ban Shadow Tag and Gorilla Tactics together, or we could ban G-Darm and admit that Gothitelle probably should have gone too.

 

[Zentrius]

Sorry, I don't see why Gorilla Tactics needs to stay when it exists on a single pokemon.\

It also "minimizes casualties" which is another important aspect of bans and tiering policy.

just because gorilla tactics exists on a single pokemon doesn't give it a pass in terms of banning it.

also in terms of minimizing casualties... no. i mean yes in paper, but while it minimizes casualties now, what happens after? what do we do if a pokemon gets released with gorillas tactics and it clearly isnt broken? banning gorilla tactics as a whole might just mess up something tier policy wise in the feature.

 

[Divine Retribution]

I think the Huge Power point is actually a solid one, and as such I think Galarian Darmanitan should be banned as a whole. I simply don't see how we can justify banning an ability for being broken, but allowing a strictly better ability to be used. I don't necessarily think Darmanitan is inherently broken, but rather the combination of its optimal stat spread and fantastic ability playing off of each other create a perfect storm of sorts. But, in order to preserve the coherence of the tiering process, I think we simply have no choice but to ban Darm wholly, even if that leaves Zen Darm as collateral damage.

 

[Linkart567]

I'm very strongly opinionated on this, we should quickban Gorilla Tactics.

This is honestly a very unique and first of it's kind situation. GT Darmanitan is broken. ZM Darmanitan is not broken. Darmanitan is the only Pokemon with acces to Gorilla Tactics. Just banning Gorilla Tactics is very simple and cuts the root of the problem: GT Darmanitan being broken. The argument about it being confusing to a new player why GT is banned when Huge Power is better is honestly brain-hurting. Sleep clause is a thing, new players are already asking why Sleep Powder fails when another pokemon on the opponents team is asleep. Right now, we have the best and cleanest shot at getting rid of the problem by banning Gorilla Tactics, and a precedent can be found in the way of the suspect test that was conducted for Drizzle in Gen 5, as only a single pokemon had access to it.

 

[Talpr0ne]

I have seen no one bringing it up, but banning Gorilla Tactics(or, more accurately, the non-Zen Darmanitan) directly contradicts how Smogon has tiered Darmanitan in the past. For example, when Darmanitan has been banned from SM RU, even Darmanitan-Zen has been banned, despite being completely godawful.

 

[Divine Retribution]

The argument about it being confusing to a new player why GT is banned when Huge Power is better is honestly brain-hurting. Sleep clause is a thing, new players are already asking why Sleep Powder fails when another pokemon on the opponents team is asleep.

The fact that you think the only issue is being confusing to new players is brain-hurting. For one thing, comparing GT to Sleep Clause or Drizzle is a total non-sequitur to begin with, but far more important than legibility to new players is consistency in the tiering process, at least in my eyes. Gorilla Tactics is strictly inferior to Huge Power. If we ban Gorilla Tactics for being broken, that carries with it the tacit implication that Huge Power is also broken... but it isn't. Nothing you said actually answered this problem, it only tried (ineffectually) to avoid it.

 

[DialgaTheTimeLord]

I'm very strongly opinionated on this, we should quickban Gorilla Tactics.

This is honestly a very unique and first of it's kind situation. GT Darmanitan is broken. ZM Darmanitan is not broken. Darmanitan is the only Pokemon with acces to Gorilla Tactics. Just banning Gorilla Tactics is very simple and cuts the root of the problem: GT Darmanitan being broken. The argument about it being confusing to a new player why GT is banned when Huge Power is better is honestly brain-hurting. Sleep clause is a thing, new players are already asking why Sleep Powder fails when another pokemon on the opponents team is asleep. Right now, we have the best and cleanest shot at getting rid of the problem by banning Gorilla Tactics, and a precedent can be found in the way of the suspect test that was conducted for Drizzle in Gen 5, as only a single pokemon had access to it.

This is not even slightly a first of its kind situation, GT is not broken, tiering policy says ban Darm, why is this even being entertained??

It seems to me that the two main arguments are as follows:

People who want to ban Gorilla Tactics alone argue that the Shadow Tag ban sets a precedent for banning abilities rather than Pokemon.

People who want to ban G-Darm argue that Tiering Policy dictates banning Pokemon rather than abilities in the vast majority of cases, and that the Shadow Tag ban was an extreme exception.

I still believe the former statement holds, and I remain unconvinced by the argument that Shadow Tag is somehow intrinsically uncompetitive in isolation. People have been making fun of my Shadow Tag Caterpie example, but no one's addressed the argument that all the Pokemon with Shadow Tag have movesets explicitly designed to take advantage of the ability. It's really not Shadow Tag that's broken, it's Shadow Tag with some combination of Encore/Trick/Taunt, etc. It's Shadow Tag considered alongside the Pokemon that has it.

That's not to say that I'm firmly against banning G-Darm, though. I would support the ban if the following holds: Tiering Policy dictates that we should prefer to ban Pokemon over abilities, and the Shadow Tag ban is inconsistent with that policy. If we ban G-Darm as a whole, then we should have also banned Gothitelle and Wobbuffet instead of Shadow Tag.

I certainly would like to see Zen Mode G-Darm remain in OU, but if the Shadow Tag ban is actually inconsistent with policy, then banning G-Darm would be the way to go. However, if the Shadow Tag ban is consistent, I'd have to argue for banning Gorilla Tactics alone.

I know this reasoning is rather pedantic, but honestly I feel like the whole "is Shadow Tag broken in a qualitatively different way from Gorilla Tactics" argument has gotten pretty pedantic. Also, there's essentially nothing at stake in this debate. All we're arguing about is whether we can keep Frisk/Competitive Gothitelle and ban Zen Mode G-Darm at the same time while staying consistent with tiering policy. So if y'all are right about Shadow Tag being different, we can ban G-Darm and still feel good about keeping Gothitelle. If it's not, then we should on principle ban Shadow Tag and Gorilla Tactics together, or we could ban G-Darm and admit that Gothitelle probably should have gone too.

NO! Just... no. You miss the point entirely. Shadow Tag Caterpie would still be broken entirely, even if not in OU. Here's why:

Let's say Caterpie is able to run a set to abuse Shadow Tag. Let's say Water types are common in LC, hypothetically. Hardly an unreasonable statement, Water is a popular type. Caterpie can use Electroweb versus trapped theoretical key threats, let's say Remoraid, Mantyke, and Corphish (just examples, no need to pull out actual calculations). Its other moveslots are Bug Bite, Tackle, and String Shot because literally that's all it has. But it theoretically is able to trap and kill these specific threats. That's all it can really effectively do, but that's all it needs to do. It can also do the same with theoretical Psychic threats, let's say Inkay and Smoochum, with Bug Bite. In ALL of these scenarios, it's broken because either these Pokemon are forced to run unconventional sets specifically to deal with Caterpie that make them otherwise less effective, or they're entirely unable to do anything and you're forced to let said Pokemon die to Caterpie since you're unable to switch in a check.

So let's say Caterpie gets the boot. It gets promoted to ZU (is that still a thing?). Caterpie is basically total ass at this point... or at least, should be. But oh boy here we go, ZU just happens to have, idk, Eviolite Ducklett as a top defensive threat, and maybe one or two other things that Caterpie can check. These Pokemon are forced to, once again, either run subpar sets or just succumb to the inky black void at the hands of a goddamn worm solely because Caterpie exists. There is zero counterplay once the battle actually starts, if you have something that would die to it. You can't switch to something that can handle Caterpie (which is probably literally anything else).

So Caterpie gets the boot again. This time, everything is too powerful for Caterpie. There's nothing left for it here. There's no reason to exist. But banning the mon first in this case dictates that it has to go up to the next tier. The problem is that any tier that Caterpie, or any STag/Arena Trap mon exists in, this is always the case. Either it's too broken solely because it guaranteed either takes out one or more key threats and/or forces them to run subpar sets to not be guaranteed dead that other Pokemon can take advantage of, or the trapper mon just can't do anything viable in the tier. In any scenario where said Pokemon is at all useful, it's uncompetitive and unhealthy, solely because of the ability. THAT is why Shadow Tag is the rare exception to the rule. Because Shadow Tag is an EXTREME case.

Does ANYONE else want to argue this??

 

[Jordy]

Please avoid silly hypotheticals that aren't relevant to the actual topic at hand, Galarian Darmanitan.

 

[Deleted User 229847]

Banning Gorilla Tactics makes no sense since we are not allowed to buff or nerf pokemon. I am pretty sure if Darmanitan were to lose icicle crash, or even any ice move, he would be way more balanced and possibly not overpowered anymore.

Simply put, we know for sure that banning gorilla tactics makes the pokemon balanced for OU, but we can isolate and do a plethora of complex bans about pokemon if we were to start this way.

The fact that only darm has the ability is irrelevant since it’s still a complex ban anyway (darmanitan is banned with gorilla tactics).

 

[Linkart567]

The fact that only darm has the ability is irrelevant since it’s still a complex ban anyway (darmanitan is banned with gorilla tactics).

No, Gorilla Tactics would be banned, just like Moody is banned across the board. I don't know why some of you want even zen mode darm gone so badly, maybe ptsd or something, but the cleanest way to conduct this is to ban gorilla tactics.

 

[king magikarps]

banning gorilla tactics is not complex ban, it is only one ability, not like "no king shield aegis" or whatever. Besides, what are the chances of game freak making another gorilla tactics mon this gen?

 

[Divine Retribution]

No, Gorilla Tactics would be banned, just like Moody is banned across the board. I don't know why some of you want even zen mode darm gone so badly, maybe ptsd or something, but the cleanest way to conduct this is to ban gorilla tactics.

I mean, I explained to you why. Still waiting on a response, but banning GT over Darm definitely is not the cleanest way to conduct it, and I'm curious why you even think that it is.

 

[Linkart567]

I mean, I explained to you why. Still waiting on a response, but banning GT over Darm definitely is not the cleanest way to conduct it, and I'm curious why you even think that it is.

Banning GT solves the problem and keeps ZM Darm. Banning Darm cuts the finger instead of trimming the nail that drives Darm over the top, GT. I said the stuff about it being confusing for new players is dumb and it was a response to someone else. We ban Gorilla Tactics not for being broken, but for making Darmanitan, it's only holder, broken. How would a new player understand the Dmax ban? They would need to read the forums or watch YT vids and understand the context sorrounding the ban, new players to showdown aren't 10 (usually) . There are a lot of showdown vids showcasing Darm's overpowering strength with GT. No new mons will be introduced with GT until Sharp Sword and Sturdy Shield come out in 2 or so years.