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Official NBA 2011-12 Season Thread
- Thread starter -RatCheesy
- Start date
An imaginary facet of the game in which field goals and free throws mystically become worth more in the last few minutes of a ball game.
I doubt anyone who thinks being "clutch" doesn't mean anything even watches the games, you guys probably just look at the box scores. People criticize Kobe for taking every possession at the end of close games, but that's part of what makes him great, the ability to ignore how many mistakes he had made previously and still have the it in his mind that he's gonna win the game for his team. Someone like Lebron is always looking to pass at the end of games, even if it means letting a Mario Chalmers take a potential gamewinner over him.
So in your mind people who care about statistics are retards for ignoring Kobe's amazing ability to fuck up, and then later fuck up again. Wow! We sure are incredibly ignorant!
Being pejorative is not going to impress anybody - nobody here cares if you watch more or less basketball than them, and since it clearly does not affect your ability to judge (you think Kobe, a bad clutch player, is impressive for continuing to make bad decisions), there is nothing for you to brag about.
Being pejorative is not going to impress anybody - nobody here cares if you watch more or less basketball than them, and since it clearly does not affect your ability to judge (you think Kobe, a bad clutch player, is impressive for continuing to make bad decisions), there is nothing for you to brag about.
Well, I'm happy that the Lakers could at least pick up a road win last night...and score over 100 points! Better than that fucking embarrassment at Milwaukee.
I really wish Ebanks could be playing like he did during the pre-season; that way we would actually have another legitimate starter and wouldn't have to put in Barnes or Artest instead.
I really wish Ebanks could be playing like he did during the pre-season; that way we would actually have another legitimate starter and wouldn't have to put in Barnes or Artest instead.
It seems we different perspective on Kobe about being clutch.. Statistically, he maybe isn't, but his reputation makes him the best. Again, of the best players the league have right now, if the game is tight, I'll put the ball in Kobe's hands over anybody else..
One thing is for sure though, LeBron has proven time and time again that he isn't clutch. What a choker...
One thing is for sure though, LeBron has proven time and time again that he isn't clutch. What a choker...
You're vague.. What you just said made him the best clutch.
HOLY SHIT! Dunk of the year: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRME9j6f560
CaptKirby make your Kobe hate a little less obvious, choose an actual weakness of his! Btw your exclamation points are really annoying!
Kobe:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfB3d1FjhCc
Lebron:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvGL0eIBeRM
It doesn't matter if you make the shot or not, it's whether you have the guts to shoot it. Lebron is a great player but pussies out of the 4th quarter and wants his teammates to bail him out when he's obviously the best player on the team.
CaptKirby make your Kobe hate a little less obvious, choose an actual weakness of his! Btw your exclamation points are really annoying!
Kobe:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfB3d1FjhCc
Lebron:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvGL0eIBeRM
It doesn't matter if you make the shot or not, it's whether you have the guts to shoot it. Lebron is a great player but pussies out of the 4th quarter and wants his teammates to bail him out when he's obviously the best player on the team.
Wait a minute. So, I'm the one that reads the boxscores but you think passing the ball to open teammates is being a pussy?
Hmm... That's odd. There's 5 seconds left in the game, down by 1. You have the ball at the top of the key and are double teamed. Your teammate is by himself under the basket. Do you A.) have "guts" and shoot an ill advised shot over 2 defenders or do you B.) make the correct basketball play and give it to a wide open teammate?
Have you ever played the game? Do you realize that just because you're the best player on the team doesn't mean you should shoot all the time?
Actually, SGV, don't even respond to this. " it's whether you have the guts to shoot it." tells me enough about your intelligence of the game that this debate will undoubtedly lead nowhere. It's basketball, a game, nobody is afraid to toss a ball at a hoop.
Hmm... That's odd. There's 5 seconds left in the game, down by 1. You have the ball at the top of the key and are double teamed. Your teammate is by himself under the basket. Do you A.) have "guts" and shoot an ill advised shot over 2 defenders or do you B.) make the correct basketball play and give it to a wide open teammate?
Have you ever played the game? Do you realize that just because you're the best player on the team doesn't mean you should shoot all the time?
Actually, SGV, don't even respond to this. " it's whether you have the guts to shoot it." tells me enough about your intelligence of the game that this debate will undoubtedly lead nowhere. It's basketball, a game, nobody is afraid to toss a ball at a hoop.
Don't even give me that. You seriously can't see Lebron's change of style in the fourth quarter? He gets nervous and gives up opportunities he would normally score on, and when he does decide that he's going to shoot he just throws up a bunch of threes. Did you see him give up against Boston? Or when he scored 11 points in 5 fourth quarters in the finals? If Lebron brought the same attitude to the fourth quarter as he does with the first three, he would have had a great chance to win both of those series.
Nothing in the world is black and white. You give me examples of poor performances (everyone has those) I can give you examples of great ones. Game winner at the buzzer against the Magic. 27 straight points against to Detroit. The last 6 minutes of each 4th quarter against the Bulls defensively, putting a stop to Rose. As far as the "throwing up a bunch of threes" goes, have you ever watched LeBron take over a game? Have you noticed that he gets in a zone with his jumpshot? If you need a specific (albeit, extreme) example here ya go
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyd4NPvzKQg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyd4NPvzKQg
I never said Kobe didn't have some poor performances, I said he doesn't let his missed shots affect his game like Lebron.
Lucky shot, still lost the series.
2007, he's changed. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BU2N0q6iSHk
Notice the most recent one is 2009.
Your defensive game isn't affected by pressure and the Bulls had no chance to win the series anyway.
3rd quarter.
This is old, and I do not care to look for some most recent statistic. I am not harping on Kobe because of a "Kobe hate" (although he is a ball hog who would have zero rings without Shaq or Gasol and is a blatant dumbass of a human being). I talked about it because people were posting sophistry as fact, or in other words you SGV and Vein.
"ESPN Stats and Information’s Alok Pattani dug through 15 years of NBA data – Bryant’s entire career, regular season and playoffs — and found that Bryant has attempted 115 shots in the final 24 seconds of a game in which the Lakers were tied or trailed by two or fewer points. He connected on 36, and missed 79 times. That works out to 31 percent. That’s obviously horrible. It would embarrass the 2001 version of Antoine Walker.
But guess what? It’s just about average. Despite what Abbott is saying here — that Kobe is not clutch — he’s actually not arguing that Bryant is bad in the clutch. Only that his shooting percentage exactly matches that of a run-of-the-mill NBA player taking a shot at the most high-pressure moment there is."
I did not think I needed to cite evidence on something everyone already knows that Kobe is not clutch who takes basketball games seriously. I would pick a pejorative to help you understand this, but I have actual facts on my side.
"ESPN Stats and Information’s Alok Pattani dug through 15 years of NBA data – Bryant’s entire career, regular season and playoffs — and found that Bryant has attempted 115 shots in the final 24 seconds of a game in which the Lakers were tied or trailed by two or fewer points. He connected on 36, and missed 79 times. That works out to 31 percent. That’s obviously horrible. It would embarrass the 2001 version of Antoine Walker.
But guess what? It’s just about average. Despite what Abbott is saying here — that Kobe is not clutch — he’s actually not arguing that Bryant is bad in the clutch. Only that his shooting percentage exactly matches that of a run-of-the-mill NBA player taking a shot at the most high-pressure moment there is."
I did not think I needed to cite evidence on something everyone already knows that Kobe is not clutch who takes basketball games seriously. I would pick a pejorative to help you understand this, but I have actual facts on my side.
When did I mention Kobe? That has no relevance. Buuut, I would say 27% career playoff shooting in the most "clutch" of situations is a little more indicative of an inefficient player than it just being a "few poor performances".
Lucky shot? lolwut. Karl Malone. 13,528 career made field goals. Lucky shots, still never won a ring.
2007, he took his team to the Finals. It's a team game, so I don't want to say he took them by himself, but he did. I mean, that is considering you overlook the star-studded roster that included such offensive juggernauts as Ira Newble, Eric Snow and umm.. let's see, Larry Hughes.
But yeah, he's changed. Now when he makes a shot in the 4th quarter it counts as 2 points instead of... 2 points... hmm.
"Your defensive game isn't affected by pressure." Hmm.
Because being matched up one on one with probably the quickest player in the league is absolutely a walk in the park. Now, I know that many NBA games lack actual defense, but to say that pressure has no relation to your defensive game is stupid. Just as much as hitting a buzzer beater is "clutch" so is securing a rebound in the waning seconds, getting a steal (Luol Deng on Kobe), getting a block (Luol Deng on Kobe) or simply altering a shot. But the Bulls, the team with the league's best record, an elite defense and the reigning MVP had no chance to win the series anyway, right? Way to throw yourself a bailout. Go play in an actual game of basketball.
3rd quarter. Am I missing something? Oh, that's right! David Stern recently instated the rule wherein the 3rd quarter of basketball games is only 12 minutes long instead of 12 minutes, free throws are only worth 1 instead of 1, field goals are worth 2 instead of 2 and 3 point field goals give you 3 points instead of 3. My bad, must've overlooked that one.
Lucky shot? lolwut. Karl Malone. 13,528 career made field goals. Lucky shots, still never won a ring.
2007, he took his team to the Finals. It's a team game, so I don't want to say he took them by himself, but he did. I mean, that is considering you overlook the star-studded roster that included such offensive juggernauts as Ira Newble, Eric Snow and umm.. let's see, Larry Hughes.
But yeah, he's changed. Now when he makes a shot in the 4th quarter it counts as 2 points instead of... 2 points... hmm.
"Your defensive game isn't affected by pressure." Hmm.
Because being matched up one on one with probably the quickest player in the league is absolutely a walk in the park. Now, I know that many NBA games lack actual defense, but to say that pressure has no relation to your defensive game is stupid. Just as much as hitting a buzzer beater is "clutch" so is securing a rebound in the waning seconds, getting a steal (Luol Deng on Kobe), getting a block (Luol Deng on Kobe) or simply altering a shot. But the Bulls, the team with the league's best record, an elite defense and the reigning MVP had no chance to win the series anyway, right? Way to throw yourself a bailout. Go play in an actual game of basketball.
3rd quarter. Am I missing something? Oh, that's right! David Stern recently instated the rule wherein the 3rd quarter of basketball games is only 12 minutes long instead of 12 minutes, free throws are only worth 1 instead of 1, field goals are worth 2 instead of 2 and 3 point field goals give you 3 points instead of 3. My bad, must've overlooked that one.
freaking lebron is the most gifted basketball player we've ever seen..that body isn't just meant to defend (bruce bowen?) or facilitate (steve nash?) in clutch seconds, but he should DOMINATE! (see what i did there? nash and bruce are physically limited guys and do what they do best, BUT shouldn't be compared to LeBron 'coz he's a freaking machine...)
and so far, post-decision LeBron disappoints. and he should learn the how-to-dominate skill from Kobe who himself has lesser freaking body than James. Defended Rose in East CF? Nah, LeBron and Bruce can do that. Pass up the final shot for an open teammate? Nah, LeBron and Nash can do that. But LeBron should be at his best when he DOMINATES. With that skill and body, there should be nothing between him and the ring.
and so far, post-decision LeBron disappoints. and he should learn the how-to-dominate skill from Kobe who himself has lesser freaking body than James. Defended Rose in East CF? Nah, LeBron and Bruce can do that. Pass up the final shot for an open teammate? Nah, LeBron and Nash can do that. But LeBron should be at his best when he DOMINATES. With that skill and body, there should be nothing between him and the ring.
Quick side note... You cannot be a good man-to-man defender if you are "physically limited". Bruce Bowen had amazing lateral quickness and very quick hands that would contest every shot pretty much... Nash plays point guard, a position that doesn't require supreme athleticism to be effective on offense. Points need to be quick and preferably long to pass around or over the defense (and many others), but they don't need to jump 37+ inches off the ground or REQUIRE a long wingspan. Nash just does SO many things well that allow him to do what a point guard should do: run the offense.
Anyways...
Look man, if a player has the ball with ten seconds left on the clock and he goes into the lane, then he is going to be doubled. Someone is going to be open. If players (and mind you, often the best player on a team gets the potential game-winning shot) shoot on average 30% during these situations, isn't it better to pass to the open teammate? No player is going to make the game-winning basket even half the time or even two times out of five when closely guarded. It doesn't matter how good Lebron is... Not even Jordan could say that his team would win most of the time being down 1 or 2 with one possession left. The clutch factor isn't really a factor... What are factors are: 1) Did the refs swallow their whistles, 2) Can the player create adequate space, 3) Out of bounds or from the baseline, 4) Are any plays drawn up, and 5) Is the player confident enough to take the shot, and many more...
Oh wait... Aren't these factors during the regular game as well? Clutchness is not a real thing. If someone seems clutch, it is probably because he is good during the regular game as well...
Anyways...
Look man, if a player has the ball with ten seconds left on the clock and he goes into the lane, then he is going to be doubled. Someone is going to be open. If players (and mind you, often the best player on a team gets the potential game-winning shot) shoot on average 30% during these situations, isn't it better to pass to the open teammate? No player is going to make the game-winning basket even half the time or even two times out of five when closely guarded. It doesn't matter how good Lebron is... Not even Jordan could say that his team would win most of the time being down 1 or 2 with one possession left. The clutch factor isn't really a factor... What are factors are: 1) Did the refs swallow their whistles, 2) Can the player create adequate space, 3) Out of bounds or from the baseline, 4) Are any plays drawn up, and 5) Is the player confident enough to take the shot, and many more...
Oh wait... Aren't these factors during the regular game as well? Clutchness is not a real thing. If someone seems clutch, it is probably because he is good during the regular game as well...
um, you're going to a one-game reference..based on your arguments, clutch does not really exist. Clutchness is more of a generality like we have been arguing here. No "what ifs". Like it's already known that post-Cavalier LeBron chokes. and Kobe's been clutch for SOME eyes ("guts??" vs statistics).
This is why clutch arguments are mostly dumb. If the person isn't using statistics, he'll just use anecdotal and reputations as his basis. Then it gets ugly.. like claiming that someone only looks at box scores because clutch is such a stupid subjective aspect of the game in the first place.
The Magic's performance can easily be explained by Jameer Nelson's injury. Not that it's an excuse, but that's the main cause.
The Magic's performance can easily be explained by Jameer Nelson's injury. Not that it's an excuse, but that's the main cause.
I still dont think you realize why Kobe takes the shot the majority of the time... It doesnt matter what the stats say, when the games on the line you give the ball to who is by far your best player. Its a fact that nobody else on the Lakers can draw the double or break down the D better than Kobe can. Its the same reason the Celtics let Paul Pierce, literally every time take that stupid mid range pull up from the top of the key when the games on the line. At the end of the day this has literally become the silliest argument on any NBA blog. It just gives people like you a reason to try and slight a person who still won 5 rings, even though its arguing a stat that doesnt actually exist
Breaking down the defense and drawing double/triple teams is not an advantage if you also shoot through the double/triple team every time...
SGV/Vein, This argument in general is horrendous. Lebron has been extremely "clutch" regardless of your definition of it, and by most objective measures has been the best player in the league (he's "disappointed" since the decision? Are you serious?)
I can't believe anyone would think that Lebron generally becomes more passive in the 4th, considering he's averaging almost 50 points per 40 minutes of clutch play... but actual facts aren't going to change some minds.
If only LeBron do this, Miami will be ubered. j/k
nah, this fact overrules yours: in 5 4th quarters in last year's finals (around 120 minutes), LeBron scored only 11 points which is nowhere near your 50 points in 40 minutes (which is true but he's racking it up in regular season). You can't say it's just 5 games, 'coz it's the Finals! where real heroes and chokers show up.