Metagame np: Stage 3: Savage (Tauros Suspect Test, Lilligant ban post #30)

:ss/tauros:
Following the June shifts which brought us a myriad of new Pokemon thanks to the release of Pokemon Home, we've decided to suspect test Tauros.

Tauros immediately caught our eye as a potentially broken Pokemon when it joined the tier a few days ago, and the possibility of a quick-ban was even considered, however, we decided a suspect test makes the most sense given the split nature of opinions about it. The tremendous breaking power of its Life Orb Sheer Force set is a lot for the tier to handle, and that's supported by an incredible 110 Speed, which is only naturally outsped by a small number of Pokemon, such as Persian-Alola, Dugtrio and Electrode. Body Slam is an incredibly powerful STAB option for it that's difficult to switch into, and it backs that up with fantastic coverage meaning no switch-in is truly safe. Iron Head can hit defensive Fairy-Types like Dacshbun and Carbink, Earthquake or Close Combat can target Steel-Types like Tinkatuff and Perrserker, Rock Slide is a nice middle-ground option that also targets some of the tier's top Pokemon like Charizard, and Assurance can catch out Misdreavus, traditionally one of our best Normal-Type answers. It also has surprisingly good bulk for a breaker relative to tier, especially on the physical side. This can make revenge killing attempts difficult, especially as the aforementioned faster Pokemon tend to be weaker attackers.

That being said, being forced to run Life Orb hinders it a little bit in a metagame dominated so much by hazards, as it would much prefer to be able to run Heavy Duty Boots like the other fast breakers of the tier. This, alongside items like Rocky Helmet and abilities like Rough Skin and Aftermath, means that chipping it isn't too difficult and you can often deny a re-entry from it by doing so effectively. It also has a slight case of four-move-slot syndrome, meaning its effectiveness can vary from battle to battle as you have to choose which defensive Pokemon you're able to break through. There are also some defensive tools available. Persian-Alola, which dropped with Tauros, can take two Body Slams and threaten with a faster Foul Play or Thunder Wave. Gabite, the tier's premier pre-shifts Stealth Rock setter, can be EVed to live two Body Slams, forcing a lot of chip damage onto the Tauros with Rough Skin. Additionally, our wealth of excellent Choice Scarf users such as Lycanroc and Indeedee can do a good job at revenge-killing Tauros, with Lycanroc being able to switch in comfortably on a Body Slam and threaten an OHKO with Close Combat. Finally, as a normal type, Tauros provides zero defensive utility which can make building with it awkward as you have to work hard to support its slot. This also means it can be a challenge to get it in safely as the tier lacks good slow U-Turn or Volt Switch Pokemon to support its entry.

Important: For this suspect, there will be two ways to qualify. The first is the typical laddering period, where players must reach the minimum GXE. The second is by winning a live suspect tournament, to be held in the Smogon PU Room on Pokemon Showdown!. You may compete in the suspect tournament on any account, and will need to post proof of you winning the suspect tournament on the voter ID thread.

There will be two live suspect tournaments:

Suspect Tournament Times
Saturday, July 8th at 8:00 AM Eastern Time (GMT -4), hosted by rien
Sunday, July 9th at 5:00 PM Eastern time (GMT-4), hosted by Shaneghoul

The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 78 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 78 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 82. As always, needing more than 50 games to 78 GXE is fine.

GXEminimum games
7850
78.249
78.448
78.647
78.846
7945
79.244
79.443
79.642
79.841
8040
80.239
80.438
80.637
80.836
8135
81.234
81.433
81.632
81.831
8230


Suspect information:
  • There will be no draws allowed for any potential qualifiers. If you qualify with draws, your suspect requirements will not count, and you will not be allowed to vote. There is no way to actively enforce ties to prevent abuse, so they will be disallowed. Use stall at your own risk.
  • All games must be played on the Pokémon Showdown! PU ladder on a new alt with the following format: "PUTA (nickname)”. For example, PUTA Shaneghoul or PUT A SOCK IN IT.
    • Edit: The tag has been changed as of Tuesday night and is now PUT1. Do not ladder on the stricken through tag as it will not count towards reqs.
  • Do NOT impersonate other people in your ladder alt, do NOT use any usernames which are offensive, flame-baiting, or targeting specific users, and do NOT use usernames which could be interpreted as breaking any of the username rules on Pokémon Showdown! Failure to abide to this will result in you being barred from voting in this suspect, and potential infractions.
  • The suspect test will last for 10 days, ending on Friday, July 14th 11pm -4.
/!\ NOTICE /!\ PU will not be tolerating any form of voting manipulation. Any attempt to manipulate votes can result in an infraction, loss of eligibility to vote in the current test, and loss of the Tiering Contributor badge. While we won't necessarily enforce super strict punishment, this won't be tolerated and will be handled accordingly. Voting manipulation can simply be described as attempting to get people to vote a way on the test in inappropriate manners. Bribing with teams to vote a certain way, directly messaging people to vote a certain way, publicly announcing "vote this way" all fall under voting manipulation. For more query, feel free to PM me or Chloe.
 
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Hey! I don't play the ladder, but I watched aim's video (normy, I know), and I'm genuinely wondering why the council decided on suspecting Tauros before Carbink? Do they see it as the bigger threat? Could we see a possible Carbink suspect in the future? If Home Pokemon keep on falling down the ladder, is there potential to seeing any action being reversed? Is this set of questions better for the Simple Questions, Simple Answers Thread?
 

gum

for the better
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carbink isn't seen as a particularly pressing issue. idpress can be annoying at times but it's heavily held back by relying on body press to make any sort of progress, while its typing makes it easier to muscle through than its bulk would make you believe (even if tera can circumvent this to an extent). it also really doesn't appreciate how hazards-heavy the current metagame is as it can't quite afford to use boots. if the metagame develops to a point where carbink becomes an issue, it could get a suspect test. but as of now, council agreed that it wasn't worth taking action on

as for the resuspect question, yes, there's a high chance we end up revoting on banned pokemon once we get the big home drops - but that won't be until october anyway. the sqsa would be a better place to ask these questions, yes, but you could also ask them in the pu room or in the pu discord. if you have more questions feel free to let me (or anyone on council) know, just not in this thread

--

tauros is a weird mon, i thought it'd be very obviously broken when i first saw we got it but i was pretty underwhelmed. still though, the more i play the more i dislike its presence. that mix of strength, speed, and coverage is very unique to it; we have similarly strong mons, like basculin and honchkrow, and even had haunter before it rose to nu. we also have similarly fast ones like alolan dugtrio and raichu, but none of them have both of those attributes at once outside of tauros. this makes it very hard to deal with, both offensively and defensively. outside of misdreavus it has the coverage and attack to 2hko or ohko the entire tier, with tera blast / assurance sets even beating this one answer (not that it's a reliable long-term answer anyway). imo its biggest issue is having to pick between life orb and boots, as sheer force + lo is pretty stupid so it obviously doesn't want to miss out on that, but in a hazards heavy metagame like this one it'll often have to give that up. but that's not enough to really make it balanced in my opinion as, well, it's still very strong and doesn't really struggle to break through anything while tera can also help it to a certain extent. if nu doesn't end up banning it this weekend i plan on getting reqs and voting ban
 
One common opinion I've seen that I'd like to dispute is that tauros can't afford to run boots, and I just don't think this is the case. Tauros isn't like sqawkabilly or zangoose where it absolutely needs a non boots item to function, boots tauros still retains its amazing speed tier and is still stronger than a lot of the tier, significantly more so than other similarly fast mons. I do think tauros should generally run LO but that more shows how ridiculous the power of LO tauros is that its worth dealing with hazard damage for, hazards do help against it and are its biggest concern but I don't think they're enough to keep it balanced.
 

fish anemometer

I ❤️HOLE
is a Tiering Contributoris the defending PU Circuit Champion
Got reqs yesterday (think im still the only one :worrywhirl: )... So to address the problem mons!

:tauros: Our initial perceptions of tauros were a bit presumptuous, as we expected it to be a monster outspeeding and killing everything, which didn't really turn out to be the case. There's rarely a perfect world for it, as it doesn't appreciate the drawback of either boots or life orb. However gum's take on it above rings very true. It functions as a wallbreaker and does that job extremely well, but it's also so fast and with base 95 def it can be surprisingly hard to revenge at times. So while not perfect, it's multiple positive qualities make dealing with it quite annoying. I'm still conflicted on this, but with every day I dislike its presence more, so i will most likely be voting BAN.

:carbink: Not a problem mon at all in my eyes. Pokemon that take body press well enough are plenty so it's not like its forcing specific mons, hazards or no leftovers wears it down quickly, boosting sets take a while to set up. There's potential here but as of week 1 I think it's appreciated in the tier as a new fire/normal/flying/dark check.

:lilligant: In my eyes, this is easily the most broken pokemon right now. HSliggoo and HQwilfish forced it to run tera ground, but now its free to pick and choose its counters. It completely dictates the tera use of every game its present in. Viable tera types include rock, fire, electric, poison, ground is still fine too, and with time it might find more, tera fight sounds ok too I've just never seen it. There are ways to check every set, but it sometimes requires some really uncomfortable scouting plays so you don't just lose to the unrevealed tera type. Quiver dance+tera continues to be one of the corniest ways to win (:volcarona::oricorio-pom-pom::oricorio::oricorio-pa:vivillon:). I'm trying not to be overly dogmatic about anything in these early stages of a new meta, but as it stands I really think Lilligant or even the move QD (which ik some very smart people are against) leaving the tier would be a good thing. But hey, with blissey in NU if we hold out till next shift we probably get chansey, which sits on all these dancers(id rather not hold out).
:changry:
Some other observations: Boots reign supreme, thunder wave is common and annoying, using offensive mons of the same type is quite effective rn cause checks on a team are spread thin and tend to be flimsy. I feel like there's a decent amount of mons, that with some set tweaking could be real meta threats. I'm super curious to hear to hear the thoughts of the rest of the playerbase!
 
question: when you meet reqs, what happens then? im currently laddering with my alt and im pretty close to getting my reqs, so do I just confirm here to show that I've met them or do I just wait until the vote and post my decision in that thread?
 

asa

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question: when you meet reqs, what happens then? im currently laddering with my alt and im pretty close to getting my reqs, so do I just confirm here to show that I've met them or do I just wait until the vote and post my decision in that thread?
A thread will be posted asking users to verify that they got reqs, and that's where you'd post your reqs (along with proof that you own the account that achieved said reqs). Threads like this sometimes take a few days to go up, but we'll make an announcement in the PU Discord and room on PS when the time comes. You can also watch the PU subforum to be directly notified when it happens.

(also, not at you specifically, will be posting my thoughts about tauros and maybe other stuff later on so stay tuned)
 
Congrats to pannu for winning the first suspect roomtour! They will be qualified to vote in the Tauros suspect.


Semifinals replay 1 (zoowi vs. Sub.L_Lime): https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9pu-1899942067
Semifinals replay 2 (MZ vs. pannuracotta): https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9pu-1899940310
Finals replay (Sub.L_Lime vs. pannuracotta): https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9pu-1899944694

Reminder that there will be a second suspect tour tomorrow (July 9) at 5pm GMT-4.
 
It should be noted that Tauros is also on the radar to be banned from NU: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...home-is-live-see-post-19.3720845/post-9695533

Obviously PU and NU are different metagames, but in my opinion this does put the viability of a suspect for the bull into question. Especially since even if NU doesn't ban it, it will very likely become NU by usage next month.
To be fair, there was a situation akin to this before: Gen 7 Hariyama. It was QB'd in Gen 7 PU then put up for a suspect, to which a month later it moved up to NU. It moving up to NU after this suspect provided Tauros doesn't get banned in NU shouldn't be an issue.

With that being said I dunno what NU and PU leaders plan to do about this overlap.
 

Da Pizza Man

Pizza Time
is a Pre-Contributor
To be fair, there was a situation akin to this before: Gen 7 Hariyama. It was QB'd in Gen 7 PU then put up for a suspect, to which a month later it moved up to NU. It moving up to NU after this suspect provided Tauros doesn't get banned in NU shouldn't be an issue.

With that being said I dunno what NU and PU leaders plan to do about this overlap.
Something similar to this happened in Natdex UU last gen. Weavile was being suspected (I forget if it was for a ban or unban) and in the middle of the suspect it ended up rising to Natdex OU. The tier leaders decided to just continue to go forward with the suspect test just so that they could have a result that they could apply if Weavile were to ever go back down to Natdex UU. I would imagine you could probably do the same thing here.
 

Hera

Make a move before they can make an act on you
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PUPL Champion
tauros is very very stupid and should be banned. slam/cc/ih hits everything but ghosts in this meta, and the ghosts in this meta aren't really long-term checks either; missy dies to assurance + ih after rocks, and that's the best option we have to deal with it. other mons like gabite, quaxwell, leafeon, otherwise solid physdef walls, are 2hkoed by sflo body slam after minor chip damage, which isn't particularly hard to obtain in a meta infested with hazards and most defensive mons lack reliable recovery. ironically enough i think if this thing had like a tiny bit less speed it would be balanced, but it sits at 110, which is mega crowded and lets it force a bunch of speed ties if it needs to win, while outspeeding most other breakers in the tier. i feel the fact it can force a bunch of speed ties is its most unhealthy aspect and one i don't see talked about too much. it's outplayable but a nightmare to prep for and still ends up breaking too efficiently most of the time to be balanced.

also i've just realized i never got the chance to talk about the meta here lol. honestly i'm really not enjoying the state the meta's been in for awhile now, messing around with tauros and friends when drops happened was fun for a bit but that's quickly worn off. my biggest gripe is that there aren't really long-term checks to anything; very few things get recovery, and most of the ones that do are either too passive most of the time (dashbun, vespiquen) or can't run boots to deal with hazards (dunsparce, quaxwell, dartix). articuno helped but it matches up poorly into a lot of things before tera. i also don't like how incosistent this meta can be. a bunch of top mons like frostom, zard, missy, and lilli all use moves with >90% accuracy on their sets, and it really sucks in an offensive meta to concede momentum because my opponent was luckier than me. tera is also super annoying to deal with. bulky setup sweepers are already difficult to deal with since almost nothing has long-term checks, but being noncommittally tech yourself past counters really sucks, but what i hate even more is the revenge killing interactions in a tera meta. something like zard vs chipped gogoat, instead of being a straightforward play, now becomes a 50/50, where losing could mean the game. it's a bit hard to explain on paper but aggravating to face in practice. i don't hate tera like i know something people do, but like i said to asa a while back, i don't enjoy having to prep/plan for something that might not even exist in the first place. i don't think anything can be done about this tiering-wise cause i think this is just a lack of options in the tier thanks to dexit rather than an issue that can be solved through suspects and shit, but it seems like i'm in the minority here. sorry if these thoughts are all over the place, it's just my disorganized ramblings on the tier rn.

also frostom and lilligant are broken please ban them
 

asa

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gum and fish anemometer said a lot of what I think/had to say already: I expected Tauros to immediately stand out as broken, but to me that wasn't the case. However, the more I kept playing and facing it, the less I liked its presence in the tier.

  • Nothing else in PU puts the same kind of pressure on teams (in both the builder and the game) as Tauros, and that's because it gets to be fast and immediately strong at the same time when most of our other breakers have to pick between one and the other.
  • Too many good Pokemon fall below 350 Speed and thus give Tauros opportunities to go wild, which means using them negates part of your counterplay to it. You could say this about a lot of Pokemon, but Tauros is among the worst Pokemon you could give free turns to. It was already gonna get to play its game before, but now you're letting it play its game even more.
  • Very little is good at withstanding its attacks either, and while Tauros doesn't just immediately drop everything from full, it's not likely that your switch-ins to it will stay at full with how good hazards are. You're also very likely going to use stuff like Misdreavus (undoubtedly the best answer), Gabite, and physically defensive Whiscash to check other Pokemon/do other things, and having to trade them for Tauros is generally better for the Tauros user.
  • Speaking of trading, Tauros isn't frail either; it has just enough bulk to take a neutral hit or two and dish out heavy damage in return, which is not what I'd call fair considering its other positives.
  • Lastly, and this is more of a side point, while chipping Tauros can be pretty easy considering our lack of removal, Rough Skin/Aftermath, etc., Heavy-Duty Boots Tauros is genuinely good and fears chip damage far less than Life Orb variants. No LO means you're definitely hitting less hard, but it virtually removes one of Tauros's only flaws and guarantees that it will get to actually play the game.
Tauros is certainly not the most broken thing we've had to deal with this gen, but I think its impact on the tier is too negative and that its strain on building/playing is too great. Looking forward to voting ban on the bull.

Aside from Tauros, Lilligant definitely deserves some sort of tiering action by this point. It is a deceptively malleable nuisance and requires completely different counterplay depending on which set it's running, all of which is not reasonably going to fit on the average team. No variation of Lilligant is necessarily unbeatable, but it feels too easy to give it free turns and too easy to mispredict what Tera type/coverage or utility option(s) it will have (which can end up giving it even more free turns, wow).
 
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I don't think Tauros is the most broken thing the tier has seen by any means, but I concur with a lot of stuff said in this thread about it, asa above wrote a very accurate summary of the points.

For me the crux of things that make Tauros unhealthy are 1. it forces the tier to speed up hugely to not let it run with impunity, and 2. defenders against Tauros have to play the long game with chip while Tauros can just click buttons. High Tera flexibility helps to push it over the edge for me too. If I manage to get reqs my vote will likely go to ban.

I would like to add that in the case where NU ends up banning Tauros before we do, no idea how that's going, I hope we can see this process through rather than simply abandoning the effort we've put in as a community. The room tours in particular were highly successful and a lot of fun and I'd love to see more of that. But yeah I'd like to see us complete this suspect regardless, if for no other reason than avoiding having to revisit it in a theoretical situation where it's freed later.

One of the biggest outcomes of this suspect, interestingly, has been Lilligant emerging as a much clearer unhealthy part of the tier than Tauros. I've been saying for a while that the mon is borderline broken but this tier shift took Lilligant to the next level with next to no checks in the tier and Lilligant forcing weird Tera matchup games where whole games can be sometimes won by whether you picked the right Tera into Lilligant's Tera. Not to mention Lilligant-on-Lilligant Tera wars which feel like the Oricorios all over again. I've seen near unanimous support for getting Lilligant out of here and I would personally not mind the council announcing a Lilligant QB vote at the same time as whatever our Tauros outcome is.
 
I don't think Tauros is the most broken thing the tier has seen by any means, but I concur with a lot of stuff said in this thread about it, asa above wrote a very accurate summary of the points.

For me the crux of things that make Tauros unhealthy are 1. it forces the tier to speed up hugely to not let it run with impunity, and 2. defenders against Tauros have to play the long game with chip while Tauros can just click buttons. High Tera flexibility helps to push it over the edge for me too. If I manage to get reqs my vote will likely go to ban.

I would like to add that in the case where NU ends up banning Tauros before we do, no idea how that's going, I hope we can see this process through rather than simply abandoning the effort we've put in as a community. The room tours in particular were highly successful and a lot of fun and I'd love to see more of that. But yeah I'd like to see us complete this suspect regardless, if for no other reason than avoiding having to revisit it in a theoretical situation where it's freed later.

One of the biggest outcomes of this suspect, interestingly, has been Lilligant emerging as a much clearer unhealthy part of the tier than Tauros. I've been saying for a while that the mon is borderline broken but this tier shift took Lilligant to the next level with next to no checks in the tier and Lilligant forcing weird Tera matchup games where whole games can be sometimes won by whether you picked the right Tera into Lilligant's Tera. Not to mention Lilligant-on-Lilligant Tera wars which feel like the Oricorios all over again. I've seen near unanimous support for getting Lilligant out of here and I would personally not mind the council announcing a Lilligant QB vote at the same time as whatever our Tauros outcome is.
Can confirm Tauros didn't get banned from nu it didn't get enough majority votes
 
Going to just echo thoughts on Tauros and Lilligant from gum, fish anemometer, asa, and aurist.
  1. :Tauros: Tauros was a good suspect target, definitely isn't as good as some may have thought initially but seems to be an unhealthy presence. Its just too fast AND strong for the tier at the moment, if I had recs I'd vot BAN.
  2. :Lilligant: Lilligant seems far more broken as it can just completely flip games on their head. There's been a few showings in tour games already where one side seemingly played worse the whole game, but then sent out Lilli and managed to pull a sweep. There is quite a bit of set and tera versatility as well which makes it even more difficult to play around. Lilli doesn't feel like it adds anything to the tier other than being a broken setup sweeper, seems like an easy Quickban to me.
:Carbink: Carbink's turn
  • I feel that this Pokemon can also snowball out of control pretty quickly. Rock polish BP sets can cleave through teams that have a severely weakened Ghost or popped there Tera already. Carbink's Tera type can also be pretty flexible, going Fighting type for Body Press damage, something like Grass or Water for defensive profile, or even Fire, Electric, Poison for particular status immunity. This thing is hard enough to KO as it is, and can Tera out of it's 2x or 4x Weakness when threatened.
  • Unlike Lilligant, Carbink offers alot to the tier besides just being a setup sweeper. Its typing makes it a welcome new fire/normal/flying/dark check, and another Stealth Rock, Spikes user is great. (Maybe not with how little removal we have...)
  • In regards to how it struggles with Ghost-types, I think its kind of prescriptive to being unhealthy if you are forcing every team to have a natural ghost type to check it. Relying on just a Tera-ghost seems shaky since its essentially making you pop your Tera defensively (and not even in response to offensive Tera necessarily).
All this to say, I think Carbink should definitely be on the radar and I would like to see it SUSPECT TESTED after Tauros test.
 

bodi

I COULD BE BANNED!
is a Tiering Contributor
finally, after I met the reqs I can say, and in my opinion Tauros :Tauros: deserve to get Banned sheer force with Life orb its too much for PU to handle and I don't know how it got to PU in the first place. Still, he has some counters like bulky alolan persian and let's be honest tauros isn't the most broken mon in this tier it's lilligant :Lilligant: everyone in the PU room agreed that lilligant is more broken then tauros with that nasty 110 Sp.Atk and a good speed and access to petal dance with 120 bp and the best part is the ability own tempo make Lilli immune to confusion from petal dance and the fact we're banning one of the best Lilli counters is so silly
 
I think PU should strongly consider quickbanning Lilligant no matter what the Tauros suspect results are.

I'd try to make this short. Most people in forums, discord and the PS chat have agreed that :lilligant: is the most stupid mon atm and it needs tiering action, with the suspect especially its been very tough to have a good streak as most of the games against good players revolves in who does position its Lilligant better in order to sweep, it its that extreme that Lilligant dominates now that Tauros for me its not an issue if its stays. Lilligant players have resorted to run bulkier spreads with other Tera types like Poison to minimize counterplay and narrow its checks. Even with the prominence of Gogoat, and the addition of Articuno, prevalence of Charizard and such. Lilligant has proven to be extremely unhealthy for the tier. It would be great if this could be accomplished before next PUPL week alongside the Tauros voting results.
 
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DugZa

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NUPL Champion
Just got reqs earlier today. Was reading through this thread and was having second thoughts about posting coz unpopular opinion but nonetheless. I played 40 something games and the more I played against Tauros the more it seemed like a non-issue for the current state of the tier. Admittedly, I think everyone already agrees that it's far from being as good as we all expected to be when it first dropped and the current state of the meta only makes it a less of a threat. LO Tauros is broken offensively, sure but with the Whiscash and Carbink drops and the lack of good hazard control options make the current tier too hazard-centric for LO Tauros to be an effective breaker; it's gonna kill itself to hazards before it can do anything meaningful in game and not to mention LO Tauros also takes damage when it clicks EQ/CC only quickening the process. Between week 1 of PUPL and the latest round(s) of PUPL we've already seen a decent amount of people opting for HDB Tauros over LO. HDB Tauros is significantly weaker and not even remotely close to broken in my opinion. Additionally, stuff like Misdreavus and Persian-A being as good and as common as they are and Electrode gradually gaining more and more traction also affect Tauros negatively; also important to note that the existence of Tauros is not what forces these Pokemon to be as popular/good as they are; they'd still be popular top tier options even if Tauros didn't exist. The existence of tera also affects Tauros negatively— you rarely ever click tera with Tauros (from personal experience at least) but there's always the risk of being caught off guard by the opponent's tera; it's not as simple as "tauros just comes in and clicks buttons."

I'll personally be voting DNB but based on what I've read here and on discord I highly doubt Tauros will remain unbanned after the suspect. So as many others alluded to already, I believe Lilligant is the biggest issue in the tier at the moment that needs to be looked into and ideally quickbanned soon so the rest of PUPL regular season can progress without it. It's a very unpredictable and versatile tera user and can completely flip games in unexpected ways. Carbink seems like a non-issue at the moment too but this is could be almost solely because of how common Missy is so maybe could be looked into in the future if it ends up being overbearing after potential Tauros/Lilligant bans.
 

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