Chloe
NUPL Champion
I do understand what you are saying but please remember vespiquen is not a ghost type. Vespiquen is good but it’s not that great by any means and generally, unless it’s late game and will cause a 100% win, tera ghosting vespiquen to spinblock quaxwell will result in biting the user in the ass later on in the game wishing they didn’t use their tera. A good, well built team will not have their mons so weak to hazards that a tera ghosted B rank mon at best will cause them to lose. Instead, they now have the advantage of not having used their tera and having the opponent used theirs. Oh and also encore quax doesn’t really get spinblocked efficiently by Vespiquen anyway. Misdreavus, on the other hand, permawalls Quaxwell thanks to being faster and access to Will-O-Wisp, while not having to use a tera. Furthermore, you ignored the fact that Misdreavus has a dominating offensive presence as well which was also a huge factor in my decision.Im surprised that he completely missed out the point when mentioning Vespiquen that, Vespiquen is one of the best ghosts right now. So if you wanna ban Misdreavus, you ought to ban Vespiquen as well imo. Vespiquen literally laughs at Quaxwell and spits on it worst than any other ghost in the tier, and im being serious because if Vespiquen is in a match vs Quaxwell it will literally most certainly tera ghost, and its not a liability at all turning into a better defensive typing with its massive bulk. Quaxwell is such in a weak spot now even if Misdreavus is gone I dont think its a reliable removal.
I meant any pokemon that commonly runs a tera-type that beats vivillon. counterplay with tera around isn't as simple as "I have a typing advantage over x, so I should win". my entire point was that, as a pokemon as frail as the butterfly is, your matchups are especially not as straightforward as they look; pokemon like gogoat and misdreavus use tera types that can beat vivillon and make it potentially kind of useless in certain matchups. tera, and so the interactions it causes, should absolutely be taken into consideration when it comes to tiering. your other point does very little to refute what I said anyway, which is that it's possible to offensively pressure vivillon so it can't get setup opportunities, and, if it does, we have plenty of choice scarf & priority users that can take it on. the substitute set does not beat any steel-types; tinkatuff very commonly runs encore and breaks your substitute, while u need good sleep rolls vs perrserker. plus, that same set ends up struggling way more vs our electric- and rock-types if anything has been put to sleep already. it's a very matchup fishy set that's not even particularly rewarding when comparing it to the qd sleep powder 2 attacks setI highlight the "random tera mons" cuz this is an argument gum repeats through his reasonings. How tf is that a plausible argument for something being ok? I think this reasoning in the whole scheme of things is generally flawed and shouldn't be taken into consideration as a pokemon's counterplay period. Unless is a common trend, like a pokemon with a certain tera type which is much more benefitial and common than others.
All the pokemon mentioned don't beat Vivillon 1v1 cuz just as gum said, they pressure it before setting up, and the first move Viv user should click is QD, not sleep powder. All of them lose in a 1v1 sceneario after a single QD with no tera for vivillon's part involved. And to end this, all this Vivillon's argument is excluding the Substitute set, which allows Vivillon to beat Steel types without resorting to Tera Blast at all. Including priority users.
you cannot compare misdreavus and the other ghosts. I think your statement is true if we're only looking at spin blocking abilities, but the entire point is that misdreavus is simply a much better pokemon; the other options you listed either lack recovery (haunter), or are passive, momentum-sinking pokemon that offer little outside of making sure hazards stay up (drakloak, sandygast). punishing them is way easier, and they're nowhere as splashable as misdreavus currently is right now. misdreavus leaving would make spikes stack significantly easier to punish, as the play style would have to turn to worse pokemon. ideally, a misdreavus ban would free up building, as, currently, its spin blocking abilities when combined with its offensive presence and amazing utility restrict what u can do in the builder a lotQuaxwell performs terribly against pretty much any spinblocker that isn't Non-Evio Haunter which gets 2 shoted. And yes, I 100% agree Missy is the best at its role, that being said. That doesn't make the others bad in it. You can simply swap misdreavus after it gets banned for another pokemon that fit that role and it will perform properly. So, Misdreavus doesn't restrict teambuilding imo. I think chloe here is biased on taking other ghosts viability as she herself said that they destroy Quaxwell, so the only role said ghost has to perform is to come repeatedly on Quaxwell. Which Drakloak and Sandygast does, also Eviolite Haunter can do too, which I think it needs more exploration.
I never said that it doesn't hit hard, I said it's weaker than physical sets. but I do think its versatility is a downside in a way; it's a pokemon that'll have to give up important matchups to beat certain of its answers. for example, the specs set has a much weaker priority, which means it requires more support tackling certain things - the same can be said about physical sets; choice band dies very quickly between wave crash, priority, faster pokemon (although aqua jet helps with this a bit), rough skin, and hazards being everywhere, while boots sets are considerably weaker (etc with scarf and whatever other item u want to use on it). there's no catch-all set, and it'll struggle with something no matter what. from my experience using, facing, and seeing this pokemon in action, I simply do not believe it's a bad or broken addition to the tier and I see it rather as a healthy addition that helps us keep certain pokemon in check and well, is good at breaking. also, @ the tera point again, I mean pokemon that can very feasibly run tera dragon / water, like vespiquen and crabominable, as well as faster offensive pokemon like pyroar and houndoom that can tera grass to punish a basculin trying to revenge kill them. these interactions are all very important to how the meta gets played out and I think we'd be doing a disservice to tiering by simply ignoring teraI don't really know how is special not strong. Besides Gogoat literally nothing comes into Special Basc, and Gogoat gets 2hkod by Phys Wave Crash.
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I already addressed how the ability choosing its an addition to its versatility and power rather than a downside.
sorry to be the one with the one-liner response, but it's been a month and a half into the metagame and at this point you need actual experience with a mon (and preferably some high quality replays too, which don't necessarily have to be yours) to claim that it's broken. glaceon is hardly even a top 30 mon in the tier right now and theorymoning is not what's gonna convince me otherwiseOkay so I theorymoned on Glaceon a bit overnight and umm... I think this thing needs to leave the tier.
gum’s post did not say he was hostile because he disagreed with council. instead, they mentioned how he nitpicked certain parts of every councilman’s reasoning and pretty blatantly explained why they were wrong with back up evidence and calculation that were honestly not that relevant for the most part. there’s a huge difference between disagreeing with council, obviously allowed and encouraged, and tagging everyone to explain, in simple terms, why our votes sucked and how we should be changing our opinions and focus. i won’t speak for the rest of council but as for me, i felt hostility multiple times throughout well his entire post.I'd like to add an extra slightly unrelated comment, but I feel a little disheartened to see some of the response to AstilCodex 's post above. It's not that I feel their post wasn't taken seriously, but to call their post aggressive or hostile when they couched their post in quite a lot of caveats to try to make it less hostile - that feels like people are taking the fact they singled out some comments personally when really they just wanted to voice their disagreement on the reasoning. I'm concerned about seeing not awfully hostile disagreement being tone policed, we're a relatively small community here in PU with not a lot of forum activity and I'd hate to see what discussion we have stifled further by worrying too much about how we're coming across.
okay sorryYeah I don't think Quiver Dance is that much of an issue in this tier because of the large amount of physical attackers