np: OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Sandstorm (Excadrill/Thundurus Banned)

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I do not think magic bounce deserves banning, in my experience both usig and facing pokemon with it, magic bounce really wasn't broken at all.

This seems to be the main issue with banning things in gen 5. Suspects are not broken by themselves, so no one wants to eliminate them. However, the right support makes them unstoppable, and having specific counters to those threats become useless against teams without them. (Gastrodon doesn't do much when you run into a clear skies team, for example, and Azumarill might laugh at Excadrill, but when he runs into anything else, he's pummelled.)

One of the biggest things BP teams have going for them, they are actually pretty rare (why I have no idea. A well played BP team is almost an autovictory). Which makes them ten times as dangerous, imo.
 
Honestly, none of those are broken individually, so I don't see how it's right to ban one or the other.

So, what's wrong with another complex ban, magic bounce + baton pass? They've already done it before with Drizzle + Swift Swim, why so reluctant to do complex bans?
 
Actually, snow warning banned in OU would not ban it in UU too. Somethign weird has happened like that a few times before, like when wynaut was banned in OU, but legal in UU.
That's not the 5th gen policy. It was 4th Gen, maybe, but not 5th. In fact, that might have even been before the UU leaders decided if they were going to follow the OU bans, or try out stuff like Wynaut [Who's power is somewhat correlated to that of the teir]

Jabba stated when Drought was on the chopping block, back when Drought and Kyurem ruled UU, that if Drought was banned in OU, and kicked to Ubers, that Drought would be banned from UU de-facto.

Because if it's too good for OU, it's obviously too good for UU. The only exceptions being if and when Imposter Ditto comes out, because his power is directly correlated to that of the teir, and possibly Wynaut [Because he's too frail to take multiple hits as you go down the teirs, like Wobbuffett]
 
The real question is:

Are the Baton Pass teams even broken[not what to ban]? If so, why?
Of course, the primary suspect would be Espeon itself, within the Baton Pass teams, and not the move itself.
 
Baton Pass itself isn't broken, but baton chains and smashpass are. You're basically on a game where if you don't have the necessary tools (perish song, encore, etc), you'll auto-lose, and that's uncompetitive.
 

Molk

Godlike Usmash
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Baton Pass itself isn't broken, but baton chains and smashpass are. You're basically on a game where if you don't have the necessary tools (perish song, encore, etc), you'll auto-lose, and that's uncompetitive.
meh, i guess i must have the necessary tools, when i see a baton pass team i stop it cold most of the time, especially since sableye has been released (ninjask<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<taunt) and if espeon comes in to ruin my fun i hit it with foul play (despite the low attack espeon has it still deals a shitton of damage)
 
Actually, snow warning banned in OU would not ban it in UU too. Somethign weird has happened like that a few times before, like when wynaut was banned in OU, but legal in UU.
There was a thread in PR earlier this year very explicitly explaining why to avoid that policy, and I believe that is the decision that has been kept. The Wynaut thing doesn't sound right, either, as there was never any reason to ban it from any tier, so it would never be specifically banned from OU but allowed in UU. What you may be thinking of is that Wynaut was allowed in LC, which is entirely separate (although it makes you wonder how the hell Wynaut was never unbanned before this gen when that very explicitly proves that it was not broken anywhere).

That's a very good argument. Similarly, no one in their right mind would argue that Excadrill is broken without Sand. No one in their right mind will argue that Espeon is broken outside of BP teams.

So, IF it is broken, what's the solution? Ban Espeon and Baton Pass? That's very complex. Ban Espeon entirely from OU? Espeon will never be used again, because I don't see how it can do anything in Ubers. Ban Magic Bounce? That's an idea.
Banning Magic Bounce doesn't sound right, as it is clearly not broken on all reasonable Pokemon - see Xatu for an example. However, I realized reading this post that, if there is something broken about Espeon's role on Baton Pass teams, then the combination of Magic Bounce + Baton Pass is quite plausibly broken on all reasonable Pokemon, because it would allow any other Pokemon to do much the same thing, and it would be that combination that should be banned.

Honestly, none of those are broken individually, so I don't see how it's right to ban one or the other.

So, what's wrong with another complex ban, magic bounce + baton pass? They've already done it before with Drizzle + Swift Swim, why so reluctant to do complex bans?
Indeed. People do not seem to understand that a properly designed complex ban requires less need than a corresponding simple ban of one of the two elements, not more, as less is being banned.

While I still maintain that the Drizzle + Swift Swim ban was an incredibly poor choice in the face of alternatives, the same principles behind it can be used to make other complex bans for the benefit of the metagame, including more suitable alternatives to the original ban of Drizzle + Swift Swim. In particular, we should not be reluctant to ban the combination of a specific Pokemon + Weather.

meh, i guess i must have the necessary tools, when i see a baton pass team i stop it cold most of the time, especially since sableye has been released (ninjask<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<taunt) and if espeon comes in to ruin my fun i hit it with foul play (despite the low attack espeon has it still deals a shitton of damage)
Seems that Whimsicott, Tornadus, Thundurus, Murkrow, and now Volbeat and Sableye can stop a Baton Pass team cold at any time Espeon is not on the field with Prankster Taunt. This is very much worth keeping in mind when considering whether or not it's actually broken.

Also, Murkrow and Sableye are immune to Assist Power, and Murkrow has Perish Song.
 
I personally don't find Baton Pass teams broken or all that hard to deal with. While a well played team can be tough, a good player can still beat that team. In other cases, it may be up to luck if you do not have a move that would allow you to otherwise take out a key player. And if they try to use Protect/Sub Ninjask, just use team preview to put something with DD, Quiver Dance, etc in your first slot and power up while they use turns building speed. By the time they pass, your poke should easily be able to knock out whatever they pass to at that point and then sweep. I am not ever a top tier player, but Baton Pass is not something I have too much problem with nor worry too much about. Maybe it is just how I build teams, but I definitely feel it can be handled and is not broken (nor Espeon or Magic Bounce) by any means.
 

alphatron

Volt turn in every tier! I'm in despair!
Volbeat doesn't learn taunt. Rather, now I'm worried about baton pass teams actually using Volbeat himself.

Edit: Flame charge Chandy and sublure are the only chandy sets I use. This pokemon is great at forcing switches, and substitute eases prediction while solving the issue of being revenged. Modest LO Chandy hits like a truck too. Flame charge is good late game once ttar/heatran are dead.
 

Nails

Double Threat
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So you see they have a ninjask. You send out your dd nite. They sub as you boost. They pass to vaporeon, you either boost again or attack. If you attack, vappy can acid armor and pass out to something or just roar you. If you boost again, you break the sub as it acid armors and then roars you. You are now facing a bp chain with +1 spe, +2 def, and you have a random team member in. Volcarona, the main quiver dancer in OU follows a similar series of moves (boost, break sub, phazed). Boosting up on ninjask just gives them free boosts.
 
So you see they have a ninjask. You send out your dd nite. They sub as you boost. They pass to vaporeon, you either boost again or attack. If you attack, vappy can acid armor and pass out to something or just roar you. If you boost again, you break the sub as it acid armors and then roars you. You are now facing a bp chain with +1 spe, +2 def, and you have a random team member in. Volcarona, the main quiver dancer in OU follows a similar series of moves (boost, break sub, phazed). Boosting up on ninjask just gives them free boosts.
It depends how much they try to speed boost and who predicts better. If they try to boost to +4-6, you should be able to OHKO if you predict when they pass and start hitting since roar has negative priority. If they predict and pass when you are not expecting it, then yes, they may win that if they roar. If you break the sub and they pass again instead of roar, if you have the right coverage to kill what they pass to, you win. It comes down to who has better prediction and coverage (not all BP vap have roar that I have seen at least).
 
So you see they have a ninjask. You send out your dd nite. They sub as you boost. They pass to vaporeon, you either boost again or attack. If you attack, vappy can acid armor and pass out to something or just roar you. If you boost again, you break the sub as it acid armors and then roars you. You are now facing a bp chain with +1 spe, +2 def, and you have a random team member in. Volcarona, the main quiver dancer in OU follows a similar series of moves (boost, break sub, phazed). Boosting up on ninjask just gives them free boosts.
I've tried this strategy. It doesn't work reliably, but it doesn't always fail. The key is OHKOing the Vaporeon before it sets up its acid armor. Not many pokemon can do that by the second turn of a battle.
 

New World Order

Licks Toads
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The worst part about Baton Pass is that its always the same few members. You know what you're going to be up against, yet you can't deal with it without resorting to a very specific strategy.

Edit: I just thought of something. Would a double phazer (Roar and Dragon Tail) work? You could try something like.

Gyarados @ Leftovers
Intimidate
Impish
248 Hp/ 252 Def/ 8 SpD
Waterfall
Dragon Tail
Roar
Thunder Wave/ Taunt
 
Hey guys let's step aside from the suspects from a second, I was theorymonning some teams and after deciding on a cbtar I realised that I would need another pokemon to lay stealth rocks down. I actually made reqs with a no hazards team (not a baton pass or smashpass team either) but I feel uneasy making a team without rocks do you guys feel a team is disadvantaged without sr or do you think that it leaves more room for flexibility when choosing pokes? For my non hazards team I had to resort to a mamoswine to deal with threats such as dragonite.

Is stealth rock a vital component for a team?
 

alphatron

Volt turn in every tier! I'm in despair!
I won't say that stealth rocks are necessary for winning games. But not using SR is just handicapping yourself no matter how good your team is. Even some of the bp chain teams use stealth rocks via suicide lead Deo-S.

How many calcs have you seen where the line, "ohko'd with a layer of rocks" is included. Without SR, even blaziken seems much less intimidating (no longer kills hippowdon).
 

AccidentalGreed

Sweet and bitter as chocolate.
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Hey guys let's step aside from the suspects from a second, I was theorymonning some teams and after deciding on a cbtar I realised that I would need another pokemon to lay stealth rocks down. I actually made reqs with a no hazards team (not a baton pass or smashpass team either) but I feel uneasy making a team without rocks do you guys feel a team is disadvantaged without sr or do you think that it leaves more room for flexibility when choosing pokes? For my non hazards team I had to resort to a mamoswine to deal with threats such as dragonite.

Is stealth rock a vital component for a team?
Well, let's see. My Swords Dance Lucario was just about to sweep a Sandstorm team with a Balloon intact, but I didn't want to risk getting my Balloon popped by the Tyranitar in front of me. So I used Close Combat. And it turns out that Tyranitar had the Chople Berry with only 10% HP to spare. Needless to say, the Balloon broke, Excadrill was next, and I was wondering why I didn't have entry hazards.

Yep, Stealth Rock is definitely a vital, if not very important, component on any team. It's not necessary, but you need to quip your team sometimes. Try fitting it as a last resort.
 
Edit: Flame charge Chandy and sublure are the only chandy sets I use. This pokemon is great at forcing switches, and substitute eases prediction while solving the issue of being revenged. Modest LO Chandy hits like a truck too. Flame charge is good late game once ttar/heatran are dead.
This.
Once T-tar, Heatran, and Hydreigon are gone(well...also Gyarados, Blissey, Chansey and Porygon2, but they're not as common) FC Chandy can pwn everything with LO boosted moves coming from 427 Sp.Attack ;)

SubLure is also pretty fun to use and can punish Ferrothorns trying to switch in on your bulky Waters.
 
I won't say that stealth rocks are necessary for winning games. But not using SR is just handicapping yourself no matter how good your team is. Even some of the bp chain teams use stealth rocks via suicide lead Deo-S.

How many calcs have you seen where the line, "ohko'd with a layer of rocks" is included. Without SR, even blaziken seems much less intimidating (no longer kills hippowdon).
And people are complaining about the centralization of weather?

I personally run a team without rocks. 1) Because I haven't found a SR pokemon that fits my team, and 2) because I think rocks are broken, so i don't use them. I hit pretty high on the ladder without them too (300 or so). I also find that in the lower tiers hazards are useful, but no where near as important. I got to the top 10 in UU with a very Offensive team, that didn't have the time to put up rocks.
 
I run a team without SR or weather, but running team like that mean you have to cover more bases with your pokes. Dragonite, Volcarona, and all out weather teams are the main concern. I made 1600 on smogon OU ladder without SR and I rarely use SR. So from experience its definitely not needed, but you better have a good counter for volcarona and dragonite.
 
So ran some calcs:
An Adamant 252Atk Banded Relicanth Head Smash OHKOs a Nite with minimal defensive investment (4hp)... The same Nite fails to OH Reli with any of its main physical moves barring a crit. If the Nite is Banded, it'll OHKO with SuperPower, and have a 13% chance with EQ. The majority of the Dnites I've seen like using DD though, and that's where Reli can win. The main thing Reli fears from Dnite is Superpower, and I don't see a ton of Dnites carrying that.
If Nite is at anything less than 100% health, the band isn't needed, and a large amount of investment would be required for Nite to survive after that...
I'm not saying Reli is a counter (Nite 2KOs) but in a straight shot, Reli beats it. If there's SR and or SS up, a scarfed or RPolish using Reli will do even better.

I find it useful because a lot of people forget that Reli gets recoil-free STAB on a 150 BP attack, and don't see the OHKO coming. The 80% accuracy can be a pain though...
All of that said, Reli makes for a creative Dnite KOer, and a lot of Pokes won't like taking that hit either. On top of that, if Reli has any speed behind it, it can do a good number on anything not outspeeding or resisting. It isn't the best Poke, but that makes it all the more fun to use against major threats like Dnite...
 
Most of the time I don't need Stealth Rocks. I'm running a simple Baton Pass team, and most of the time, either never get the chance to use SR, or not needed at the time, but end up sweeping without them.

They are still very useful for Pokemon like Volcarona and Dragonite.
 
It really depends on the team. Stall/Bulky Offense/Balanced should pretty much always have it, but if you're running Hyper Offense or something like SmashPass, you don't always need it, even though many HO teams have Deoxys-S to set it up anyway.
 
Because I brought it up, the Chandelure set that I run is this:

Chandelure @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Sp.Atk. / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
-Subsitute
-Fire Blast
-Shadow Ball
-HP Fighting

This set can forces switches relatively easily, setting up subs like a boss. Once you are behind a sub, you can do some serious damage to anything that dares to switch in. A little fun fact about this set is that it actually works well against copy-patsa rain teams. Because of that, I am tempted to run Energy Ball in place of HP Fighting, but then I lose the ability to touch TTar. I know I sound a little crazy.

About SR...
It really helps against those U-turn spamming teams. It makes Thunderbro that much easier to handle. And, it breaks sashes as well as Multiscale.
 
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