except that Skarm gets phased out by Espeon with Magic Bounce -_-
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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Sandstorm (Excadrill/Thundurus Banned)
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
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You do know that Ninjask has 61/45/50 defenses, right?
BP doesn't really have a true counter, at least not if you build it right. It's really tried by people as a "nooby" playstyle but it's pretty good at covering it's bases. ginga said why skarm doesn't work, dragontail doesn't work on subs (vap gets those defensive boosts up so it might not even break some subs), it's pretty solid.
@Ningildo You can stall out dragon tails and then switch to something that won't have subs broken by dragon tail (vap)
That's why Baton Pass is Suspect and not Ninjask. It takes a team to use BP. In otherwords just switch to the appropriate check.
My best method of dealing with BP teams was using CBTar Crunch
252/252+ Vaporeon loses 50% from the first crunch.
604 Atk vs 240 Def & 464 HP (80 Base Power): 217 - 256 (46.77% - 55.17%)
while the second Crunch deals like 25% next turn
604 Atk vs 480 Def & 464 HP (80 Base Power): 109 - 129 (23.49% - 27.80%)
not enough room to put up a sub and since (most of the time) it's the bulkiest member on the physical side of Baton Passing teams the other member cannot really stall me out using Substitute since it easily breaks those.
(Unless the have a steel type like Scizor or Mawile)
252/252+ Vaporeon loses 50% from the first crunch.
604 Atk vs 240 Def & 464 HP (80 Base Power): 217 - 256 (46.77% - 55.17%)
while the second Crunch deals like 25% next turn
604 Atk vs 480 Def & 464 HP (80 Base Power): 109 - 129 (23.49% - 27.80%)
not enough room to put up a sub and since (most of the time) it's the bulkiest member on the physical side of Baton Passing teams the other member cannot really stall me out using Substitute since it easily breaks those.
(Unless the have a steel type like Scizor or Mawile)
:( i know, it really requires some prediction, it is still my main way to get past baton pass teams.
i dont know about you guys but i cant wait to use prank will o sableye physical sweepers meet your doom
It's suspect for a reason.
Though I'm not sure if it's winning tourneys, I have no idea on what tourneys are run here and their results. Sorry. ;/
Though I'm not sure if it's winning tourneys, I have no idea on what tourneys are run here and their results. Sorry. ;/
But if you can't start off a team revolving around BP, how does it become broken?
Yeah, a lot of things have been thrown around as suspect. Doesn't mean they are broken.
Getting back to Baton Pass, doesn't it make more sense (assuming it is "broken", which I don't quite agree with) to ban the ONE poke that "breaks" the move instead of the move itself? Before Magic Bounce Espeon, no one seemed to have a problem with Baton Pass. See my point
I have found baton pass teams really hard to deal with, broken though? No, I don't think so. Really, all you need is a single dragon tail pokemon, and its basically GG for that baton pass team.
lmitchell0012
Wi-Fi Blacklisted
If you use whirlwind/roar/dragon tail when you think they'll baton pass, doesn't that get rid of the boosts?
Indeed. What we should be focusing on now is, is Espeon broken for its effect on Baton Pass teams? And it seems like a rather ridiculous question looking at it that way.
Dragon Tail never phazes though a Substitute.
I'd just like to add my two cents to the ban auto-weather discussion.
I tried to successfully ladder on Smogon's PO server with non-weather teams and I could never put together a team that would break a ranking of 1000. Sure, I'm not the most skilled person at teambuilding, but my teams were always inferior to perma-weather teams. Surely enough, I gave in and made a perma-Drizzle team and it has never been easier to ladder. I won nearly every match of mine nonstop and rose to a ranking of around 1190, gaining an overall rank (not ranking) of over 1000 on the server. What alarmed me were two things: how superior auto-weather teams are compared to the majority of other teams, and that the further up I went, the most auto-weather teams there were. Primarily, I found sandstorm teams, with rain teams just under and a few sun teams here and there. The few teams I did encounter at that level were able to completely shut down my rain team. What I found was that these teams are not broken at all - I often beat sandstorm teams but good players could beat me. The reason I believe that auto-weather teams should be banned is because it is over-centralizing. I have yet to encounter a player with a ranking over 1150 that did not have a weather team or could not utterly shut down my team. For this sole reason, I believe that the abundance of auto-weather creates less depth to the metagame and causes over-centralization, therefore, it should be banned so the metagame can not be so centered.
Why not just rain and sand? Well, it's a possibility, however, what sets them apart from sun and hail? It would require testing, and theoretically, there would be many hail and sun abusers after rain and sand left. If we're willing to test all weathers individually and in all possible combinations, sure. But that will obviously be very time consuming.
Again, just my two cents. If everyone finds a need to shoot down my argument, please don't be rude about it.
I tried to successfully ladder on Smogon's PO server with non-weather teams and I could never put together a team that would break a ranking of 1000. Sure, I'm not the most skilled person at teambuilding, but my teams were always inferior to perma-weather teams. Surely enough, I gave in and made a perma-Drizzle team and it has never been easier to ladder. I won nearly every match of mine nonstop and rose to a ranking of around 1190, gaining an overall rank (not ranking) of over 1000 on the server. What alarmed me were two things: how superior auto-weather teams are compared to the majority of other teams, and that the further up I went, the most auto-weather teams there were. Primarily, I found sandstorm teams, with rain teams just under and a few sun teams here and there. The few teams I did encounter at that level were able to completely shut down my rain team. What I found was that these teams are not broken at all - I often beat sandstorm teams but good players could beat me. The reason I believe that auto-weather teams should be banned is because it is over-centralizing. I have yet to encounter a player with a ranking over 1150 that did not have a weather team or could not utterly shut down my team. For this sole reason, I believe that the abundance of auto-weather creates less depth to the metagame and causes over-centralization, therefore, it should be banned so the metagame can not be so centered.
Why not just rain and sand? Well, it's a possibility, however, what sets them apart from sun and hail? It would require testing, and theoretically, there would be many hail and sun abusers after rain and sand left. If we're willing to test all weathers individually and in all possible combinations, sure. But that will obviously be very time consuming.
Again, just my two cents. If everyone finds a need to shoot down my argument, please don't be rude about it.
I have yet to run into a baton pass team where then running sub was a problem. Usually the most common sub pokemon is ninjask, which gets detroyed by anything with taunt. A few other pokemon can't take a dragon tail either, such as Mr. Mime, so there sub doesn't matter. I have seen some teams use boosting Gorebyss and Vaporeon, but thats leaves them weaker to other phasers. I am sure one could create a baton pass team that counters every single last thing any player could do against them, but then, they can't sweep because they will run out of pokemon. Usually baton pass teams are more worried out Skamory and other phasers, Gyarados and phasing Dragonite are lower proirities.
BINGO! You just answered your own question. A well built team has a response to every threat in the metagame. Weather is half the metagame, therefore you must check it. Its not like the pokemon dedicated to checking weather are limited to what they do either. Bronzong and Skarmory check sand, but they also take on dragons like bosses. Rotom-W and Latias check rain, but they also take rock types and special attackers respectively with ease. This is not an example of overcentralization. These pokemon are used a lot because they're GOOD. They can take care of a ton of shit just by being slapped onto a team. If someone makes a team with no water resists, then they probably don't desserve 1150 CRE.
I think this is going is bit far, even the best team have some sort of weakness, no matter how strong. Also hyper offensive teams tend to not have a way of dealing with some pokemon, just just outright choose to lose to them so that they can sweep other things.
Response doesn't necessarily mean check/ counter. For example, I may have a "response" to Gengar using my Specially Defensive Jirachi, however, if its a Disable set, Jirachi isn't going to work, but it can still take out the sub, and switch out and hope Gengar doesn't sub again. These pokemon are much more difficult to play around, but it shouldn't be "instant loss" whenever you see one.
...this was true in 4th gen. In 5th gen, you are always going to be weak to something regardless of how well built your team is. Every team has a weakness of some sort; 5th gen has too many threats to cover them all.
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