np: ORAS UU Stage 4 - Go with the Flow

[Sam]

So we had very few changes in terms of tier shifts - only Gothitelle dropped, and without Shadow Tag it is completely unviable in the tier. However, Smeargle and Venomoth were dropped out of BL following the baton pass nerf. Rules for posting about suspects are the same here as the last one: don't.

song: Go with the Flow - Queens of the Stone Age

 

[Chronobreak]

My two cents about the drops.

Venomoth: I have a feeling this will be next to useless, due to the amount of better QD sweepers in the tier. Moth, and correct me if Im wrong, was solely banned for its QD passing, while its solo sweeping was quite mediocre, and outclassed by the likes of vivillion. With its one useful trait taken away, it has no niche in the meta. Pretty much just waiting to drop to tiers where its useful imo.

Smeargle: This is definetly the more interesting of the two. Smeargle, simply put, can do anything utility wise. With the ability to learn every move in the game, this mon has unrivaled utility. While it was originally banned for geopassing, it can still set hazards, spin hazards, defog hazards, spread status, grab momentum, and pass non speed stats, like CM and Belly Drum. The variety of smeargle sets that players discover could change a portion the metagame around it. While it has no offensive or defensive presence, I belive its movepool is enough to solidify a place in ORAS UU.

 

[Freeroamer]

Er while I don't disagree it's movepool is insane, I think you're being way too generous when you talk about all those different roles it could pull off. Smeargle certainly won't be defogging any hazards or grabbing momentum(assuming you were talking about it as a pivot) because the rest of it's repertoire is just too mediocre. I think sash lead with something like rocks / dark void / magic coat / nuzzle or spikes is going to be the peak of this mon honestly.

Also, what other Quiver Dancers lol? I think Vene has a niche in that it can bypass Florges thanks to Poison STAB and in general could be a pain for teams cos most Sleep immunities don't really take too kindly to it's STABs but that's also something Vivillon shares. I think they're both going to be niche offensive options that some teams struggle to handle at +1 but are for the most part hard to justify on serious teams.

 

[Cactrune]

Yeah, this month wasn't anything too exciting, but I do think that it'll cause a few minor shifts anyway. First of all, yeah, Gothitelle is pretty hard to justify using over basically any other Psychic-type in UU, and I think it will drop to RU and then maybe NU after that. But that's not why we're here.

Venomoth looks like an interesting option on paper, but I don't think that it'll be that good. Without QuiverPass, there aren't too many reasons to use Venomoth over other special sweepers thanks to its mediocre coverage and relatively low stats for a sweeper (90 Special Attack and Speed). It most directly competes with Vivillon, which has a more accurate Sleep Powder and access to a better STAB move in the mighty Hurricane in exchange for a 4x Rock weakness. Like Vivillon, it probably won't see the light of day that much in this tier, only popping up occasionally to amuse people during tournaments and the like. I like this 'mon in concept because of Tinted Lens and some other cool toys that it can play with, but overall I don't think it's worth using.

Now Smeargle, on the other hand, is a Pokemon that I do think will see more use, mostly on offensive teams, thanks to its incredible range of capabilities. Yeah, it has a lot of issues, namely its frailty, which prevents it from setting up hazards (which will be its main role) later in a match. Still, it's got a lot of things going for it, including Dark Void/Spore to put would-be checks to sleep, Magic Coat to prevent Taunt leads from annoying it, and access to every single form of entry hazard in the game. All of these tools are going to give Smeargle at least quite a few niches in this metagame, and I can see the most innovative players in the metagame thinking of new ways to use this Pokemon, because it is one with lots of potential.

I hope everyone enjoys this stage of the metagame!

 

[Master B8s]

Not too much from this tier shift. Gothitelle is useless without shadow tag (thank god cause I despise this thing).

Venomoth while being good at the now banned quiver pass, still can be useful in this tier. QD is still an amazing set up move, and tinted lens helps with its coverage. Sludge bomb/psychic/giga drain or sleep powder/quiver dance seems like the best set for neutral coverage. Sludge bomb for obvious stab, psychic for crobat, who could live a sludge bomb and kill, although I can see other options being better, giga drain to help it beat bulky waters and stay healthy, but sleep powder is there to help set up. Overall not the best thing to come to UU, but It certainly has something to bring to the table unlike goth.

Smeargle I don't see being very good. Yes it can set up hazards but it gets to do this like once? It's bulk and typing is terrible so it will be a suicide lead, and in a tier with plenty of viable defoggers and spinners, those hazards won't be there too long. Still has a niche in hazard lead that can put a foe to sleep, but again not too great.

 

[Shadow_Sneak]

As already stated above smeargle is most likely going to be a hazards lead. It may be one of the better offensive hazard leads but there is almost always one thing I have not liked about lead smeargle in every Gen bar gsc. It really has trouble stopping taunts so its moveset will be like stated above sleep move/ magic coat/hazard/utility or other hazard. Basically it's not the best mostly because of mediocre speed and bulk but it should get at least one hazard per game.

Edit 1: Generally custap forre or some other lead like azelf should be used over it may also be on bp with like bulk up agili pass or something along those lines. It will have a small niche.

Edit 2: it will have more then a small niche as a suicide lead but as a bper it has a very small niche.

 

[Schpoonman]

Sam's music choices have improved. Well done.

I'm sure I'll get some playtime in tonight, but based on what I know of the Pokemon in question...

Venomoth: People saying that it's outclassed by Vivillon are just... Wrong. Vivillon's only REAL advantage is accurate Sleep Powder. Hurricane hits hard against non-resists, sure, but no one willingly bring in something that can't tank a Hurricane (and keep it mind, it still may miss, this isn't No Guard), and Vivillon lacks the power to really put people on the back foot. But beyond that, Resisted Hurricane is WEAKER than Tinted Lens Bug Buzz and Sludge Bomb, so most of the time Venomoth is still hitting harder. Add in the extra Stealth Rock weakness and Ice weakness, and Venomoth will be the premier Quiver Dancer (or rather the only relevant one, Vivillon is uncommon as fuck anyway) in the tier.

Smeargle: Smeargle is now suicide lead king. Magic Coat prevents it from being Taunt-fodder, it has literally every status move in the game to fuck with every playstyle, it's an alternative Sticky Web setter, you can be a lord and use the FEAR set... Hell, if you're crazy enough, you could still use it as a passer, like for Tail Glow, though the inability to boost speed and any other stat (sorry, Shadow_Sneak ) means it's MUCH easier to revenge now. Still, get ready for hazard hell. You know, until you Defog it away.

I'm not even mentioning the third Pokemon by name and I urge you all to do the same, let's discuss drops that will actually matter in the tier.

 

[Pipotchi]

Smeargle is the main feature and Ill be pretty excited to see how it adds to the meta- I assume we will see some tail glow now that speed+offense cant be passed?

Not convinced by Venomoths viability or even niche over Vivillon. At least Vivillon has a chance of grabbing the multiple boosts that are necessary to sweep a team with miserable 90 special attack and 90 speed thanks to a much-needed combination of accurate sleep and 30% confusion chance, whereas Venomoth is mostly limited to one boost- not to mention 110BP is a step up from 90, and flying hits relevant mons that absorb sleep powder such as Roserade, Soundproof Aboma (pre-mega), and Chesnaught, all of which can be trouble to Venomoth depending on its STAB choice.

Gothitelle who

 

[Nightingales]

I ran into a team with a spinda and a Smeargle. Guess what had V-Create?

Nonetheless, even with these bad-ish mons, there can still be fun to have with it.

I just woke up, sorry for the shitpost.

 

[Shadow_Sneak]

Sam's music choices have improved. Well done.

I'm sure I'll get some playtime in tonight, but based on what I know of the Pokemon in question...

Venomoth: People saying that it's outclassed by Vivillon are just... Wrong. Vivillon's only REAL advantage is accurate Sleep Powder. Hurricane hits hard against non-resists, sure, but no one willingly bring in something that can't tank a Hurricane (and keep it mind, it still may miss, this isn't No Guard), and Vivillon lacks the power to really put people on the back foot. But beyond that, Resisted Hurricane is WEAKER than Tinted Lens Bug Buzz and Sludge Bomb, so most of the time Venomoth is still hitting harder. Add in the extra Stealth Rock weakness and Ice weakness, and Venomoth will be the premier Quiver Dancer (or rather the only relevant one, Vivillon is uncommon as fuck anyway) in the tier.

Smeargle: Smeargle is now suicide lead king. Magic Coat prevents it from being Taunt-fodder, it has literally every status move in the game to fuck with every playstyle, it's an alternative Sticky Web setter, you can be a lord and use the FEAR set... Hell, if you're crazy enough, you could still use it as a passer, like for Tail Glow, though the inability to boost speed and any other stat (sorry, Shadow_Sneak ) means it's MUCH easier to revenge now. Still, get ready for hazard hell. You know, until you Defog it away.

I'm not even mentioning the third Pokemon by name and I urge you all to do the same, let's discuss drops that will actually matter in the tier.

Agility pass is probably the only way to go now as it will improve its speed for the bp but it will have to have some type of SD sweeper or cm sweeper. So yeah, it's gonna be a kinda sucky bper.

 

[Cactrune]

Turns out that I did underestimate Venomoth's power. I now agree with Lord of Bays that Venomoth has a pretty decent offensive presence after running calcs, and I have to say that it's pretty impressive. Calcs are at +1 because Venomoth can easily put passive Pokemon to sleep and set up at least one time on the switch.

Venomoth Offensive Calcs

Mega Aerodactyl: +1 252 SpA Life Orb Tinted Lens Venomoth Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Aerodactyl: 231-273 (76.7 - 90.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Empoleon: +1 252 SpA Life Orb Tinted Lens Venomoth Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 159-187 (42.7 - 50.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Crobat: +1 252 SpA Life Orb Tinted Lens Venomoth Sludge Bomb vs. 248 HP / 4 SpD Crobat: 265-315 (71 - 84.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
Chandelure: +1 252 SpA Life Orb Tinted Lens Venomoth Sludge Bomb vs. 112 HP / 4 SpD Chandelure: 242-286 (83.7 - 98.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Cobalion: +1 252 SpA Life Orb Tinted Lens Venomoth Bug Buzz vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Cobalion: 146-172 (45 - 53%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO
Forretress: +1 252 SpA Life Orb Tinted Lens Venomoth Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Forretress: 335-398 (94.6 - 112.4%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
Doublade: +1 252 SpA Life Orb Tinted Lens Venomoth Bug Buzz vs. 240 HP / 16 SpD Eviolite Doublade: 125-148 (39.1 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Nidoqueen: +1 252 SpA Life Orb Tinted Lens Venomoth Bug Buzz vs. 128 HP / 0 SpD Nidoqueen: 255-302 (72.2 - 85.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Mega Aggron: +1 252 SpA Life Orb Tinted Lens Venomoth Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Mega Aggron: 205-242 (59.5 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

As these calcs demonstrate, a lot of the Pokemon that you'd think were safe switch-ins to Venomoth are incapable of doing so, and at +1 Venomoth outspeeds quite a few things, including Mega Aerodactyl, Cobalion, Scarf Chandelure, and non-Scarf Crobat. However, Venomoth does seem to struggle with offense thanks to its middling bulk and speed, so it can easily be revenge-killed by things like Scarf Mienshao, Scarf Hydreigon, Entei, Scarf Infernape, and Scarf Crobat others. Venomoth also struggles with Stall, as it has no way of getting past things like Blissey, which can just Paralyze it and whittle it down. You should also keep in mind that even if the threats that calced on may not be able to switch in, but several of them are capable of revenge-killing Venomoth with ease, most notably Doublade, Crobat, and Mega Aerodactyl.

Overall, it may be that Venomoth is going to be a decent balance breaker, a Pokemon easily capable of setting up and destroying quite a few common cores. However, its middling speed and bulk make it hard for Venomoth to set up against offense, and makes it fairly easy to revenge-kill, while its middling power often forces it into a bad match-up with stall teams as well. Overall, I'd say that Venomoth is still going to decently threatening in this tier, and it will probably find a place in the B-ranks.

 

[DaSpoofy]

Does this apply to r1 uu open?

 

[Mazz]

As far as I'm concerned, the tier is exactly the same as it was when the suspect test ended.

Neither Gothitelle nor Venomoth are going to do anything of note in Underused; neither Pokemon has the tools or anything to differentiate themselves from similar Pokemon already succeeding in the tier (read: Reuniclus, Yanmega to an extent). While I am impressed by what a +1 Tinted Lens Venomoth can accomplish, I don't see it gaining any traction in Underused, as it's hard to set up safely and is forced out relatively easy. Keep in mind those calcs are primarily 2HKOs and 3HKOs with every one of those targets (excluding Empoleon) being able to outright bop Venomoth with an appropriate STAB or coverage move. Smeargle, despite having an infinite movepool, is going to see limited use to Hyper Offence and Spikestacking teams; it just doesn't work very well on anything else. And despite being an effective lead, Smeargle's lack of bulk means it'll be hard pressed to take more than one Rapid Spin. Losing its ability to pass Geomancy or Quiver dance is going to severely hurt its usage. None of the three drops will be in Underused for long.

Does this apply to r1 uu open?

No, but it will affect all future rounds.

 

[Omfuga]

I think you guys are seriously underestimating venomoth. It has the power to invalidate teams without baton pass; a sleeper that crushes grass types and has only 5 or so resistances to its STAB in the tier (cobalion, chand, doublade, crobat, one other I think) is certainly viable. Especially with good speed and special attack, and really nasty typing.

 

[rs]

I might as well put my 2 cents in about these drops.

I believe Smeargle will be the most interesting of the 3, having access to every single move in the game. It can still run a Baton Pass set (BellyPass, Tail Glow pass, etc), but I feel it will mostly be used as a suicide hazards lead. With access to Magic Coat it can beat any fast taunters that try to cripple Smeargle completely and it can just stack hazards everywhere after bouncing back the taunt. I think the most annoying thing about this pokemon is it's use of Dark Void/Spore (and also every other status move), which will probably be on almost every Smeargle set anyone uses, sadly, so it will almost be essential to have a sleep/status absorber on every team which kind of sucks. But I still think it will stay UU for the time being.

The other interesting Pokemon that dropped. I feel like you guys are seriously disrespecting this Pokemon. With access to 2 good abilities in Tinted Lens and Wonder Skin (Tinted Lens will be used more most likely on a QD set), this thing could destroy a lot of teams nowadays, with only a few pokemon resisting both STABs, as mentioned above. At +1 from Quiver Dance, Venomoth could hit anything extremely hard with its Tinted Lens. It can also run a coverage move like Psychic over Sleep Powder to donk Crobats after a Quiver Dance. Again, we'll see how it plays out but I feel like this Pokemon could be a nice new threat people have to worry about.

lol this PoS will drop like a rock without STag

 

[Euphonos]

For the meantime, I'd like to discuss about the main problem I've encountered with Venomoth since the generation Quiver Dance was introduced. That main problem I'm referring to is its Speed tier which is not enough to outrun Pokemon from the likes of Krookodile and beyond with their Choice Scarf equipped while Venomoth has used Quiver Dance once; this means that these offensively-oriented Pokemon can pressure Venomoth to not let it in and set up Quiver Dances to their faces. That, alone, for me, could de-motivate players from using Venomoth in the tier; however, once its limitations have been considered very well, Venomoth will become an underrated menace to prepare for.

I just had my 300th post here :o
#achievement

 

[Schpoonman]

Euphonos, you make an excellent point, but I think something that will help Venomoth is Tinted Lens, which will seriously discourage switching in. Ordinarily Krook could switch in on a predicted Sludge Bomb, deal with the damage thanks to the resist, and then revenge. Not so with Moth ignoring the resistance. I'll run some calcs once I'm home, but I think the extra power afforded will make Moth much more dangerous than a lot of you are immediately giving it credit for.

EDIT: Remembered to post this calc. Yeah, Venomoth basically HAS to be revenged, or at least something way bulkier than Krook has to revenge.

+1 252 SpA Life Orb Tinted Lens Venomoth Sludge Bomb vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Krookodile: 296-351 (89.1 - 105.7%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

 

[YABO]

Venomonster is good, please don't say it isn't. At +1 it shits on stuff and it really isn't hard to set up due to its access to quiver dance. Roost sets can also just bust through stall like nobody's business depending on how the opposing team is built. Even checks like Cobalion get punished for dodging sleep with substitute due to Bug Buzz's capability to smash through that. Other checks are pretty much universally weak to stealth rock and removed with casual whittle from forcing them out, or just straight trapping them with something like pursuit aero. This thing is good, baton pass was definitely not the only set.

 

[Euphonos]

Euphonos, you make an excellent point, but I think something that will help Venomoth is Tinted Lens, which will seriously discourage switching in. Ordinarily Krook could switch in on a predicted Sludge Bomb, deal with the damage thanks to the resist, and then revenge. Not so with Moth ignoring the resistance. I'll run some calcs once I'm home, but I think the extra power afforded will make Moth much more dangerous than a lot of you are immediately giving it credit for.

EDIT: Remembered to post this calc. Yeah, Venomoth basically HAS to be revenged, or at least something way bulkier than Krook has to revenge.

+1 252 SpA Life Orb Tinted Lens Venomoth Sludge Bomb vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Krookodile: 296-351 (89.1 - 105.7%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

Did I make an implication that Venomoth is not powerful? I do understand its biggest asset in Tinted Lens now that its biggest niche has been nerfed to a whole new level, besides, I really appreciate the power it gets from a Quiver Dance boost. It's the Speed that would somehow be a letdown to complete the sweep, if that's the case.

 

[Schpoonman]

You're right, I apologize. The point I wanted to make was that Venomoth ignoring resists made it so difficult to switch in to (where as with something like Vivillon, you just throw a Steel-type at it and call it good) that its some-what lack-luster speed won't affect its ability to punch holes or even sweep.

 

[Cactrune]

I'm going to reiterate what I said before, which is that I think that Venomoth will struggle with offense, but find quite a few setup opportunities against balance and even (depending on the set you choose to run) stall. It seems to be quite easy to force out for offense teams, but on other playstyles there are many different walls that Venomoth can either put to sleep/set up Subs against or just force out thanks to its decently powerful STAB moves. Overall, I will be interested in seeing how this Pokemon does in this tier. Keep the discussion coming, guys, I like it!

 

[Freeroamer]

Euphonos, you make an excellent point, but I think something that will help Venomoth is Tinted Lens, which will seriously discourage switching in. Ordinarily Krook could switch in on a predicted Sludge Bomb, deal with the damage thanks to the resist, and then revenge. Not so with Moth ignoring the resistance. I'll run some calcs once I'm home, but I think the extra power afforded will make Moth much more dangerous than a lot of you are immediately giving it credit for.

EDIT: Remembered to post this calc. Yeah, Venomoth basically HAS to be revenged, or at least something way bulkier than Krook has to revenge.

+1 252 SpA Life Orb Tinted Lens Venomoth Sludge Bomb vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Krookodile: 296-351 (89.1 - 105.7%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

I find that calc kinda misleading considering you'd only ever make that play with a Scarf Krookodile, otherwise you're going to get Bug Buzzed so Vene won't be at +1, meaning it's not going to KO. From there it can kinda be a 50-50 because Pursuit smacks you and stops you sweeping later.

252 SpA Life Orb Tinted Lens Venomoth Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Krookodile: 198-234 (59.8 - 70.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Krookodile Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Venomoth: 184-217 (65.4 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[Pearl]

I see most of this thread's discussions so far revolve around Venomoth's viability, and while I agree that it'll be a force to be reckoned with (Sleep Powder + Quiver Dance is still really nasty even without Baton Pass), I'd like to bring something else up: the viability of Sticky Web teams after Smeagle's drop. It is definitely an improvement over Shuckle, due to its ability to actually outrun stuff (not much, but still), Spore and bigger versatility in its forth move (Taunt is huge in Empoleon/Mandibuzz matchups, Magic Coat is usable too). As a Sticky Web enthusiast, this is definitely something I'm looking forward to. It's true that it still suffers a lot due to Aerodactyl and Salamence's dominance (and Hydra to an extent, but Hydra is also amazing as an abuser so it works both ways), but it's also good to keep in mind that Mega Berd has been banned recently and Aerodactyl, while remaining an amazing Pokemon, is arguably at an all time low as far as viability goes due to the rise of trends such as Doublade and Cobalion (there's also Suicune, Tangrowth and Swampert too).

To finish this post, I'll mention the variety of good Sticky Web abusers in UU. To start off, there's a ridiculous amount of Dragon-types to choose from, including Hydreigon, Tyrantrum and Haxorus. Hell, even CritDra could probably find a home in this kind of teams. Mamoswine is a recent addition that can do a lot of work with Sticky Web support. Same for Nidoqueen as far as Ground-type Pokemon go. Slow Fighting-types are also efficient, even though Sticky Web doesn't really nullify most of their counters (both CB and SD Heracross have the ability to blast through everything. Machamp and Pangoro are probably fine too). There are many more, such as Fire-types mostly and even Feraligatr, but this should be enough for now.

 

[Metalhand]

I would like to ask something the UU staff, not sure if its the right place but its seems the most suitable. Given the fact that UU pretty much stayed the same, you gonna retest something or think that there is something in BL That can be retested (like for example starptor or wobbufet with shadow tag)?

 

[Schpoonman]

I would like to ask something the UU staff, not sure if its the right place but its seems the most suitable. Given the fact that UU pretty much stayed the same, you gonna retest something or think that there is something in BL That can be retested (like for example starptor or wobbufet with shadow tag)?

From the OP: "Rules for posting about suspects are the same here as the last one: don't."