the only thing that should be kept banned is Dark Void. it's completely broken.
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np: Doubles Stage 2 - Suspect Discussion
- Thread starter Pocket
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1. Already been stated multiple upon multiples of times in the thread so I feel no need to expand further.
As for the second question, it's far easier to answer. The official doubles meta started in gen 5 where there were 2 huge differences with sleep, the first being sleep turns being reset upon switching, and the second being no grass type immunity and overcoat buff.
The first is huge since once something is put to sleep, unlike now, you're forced to leave it in and pray to helix/allah that it gets an early wake up since switching it out resets the amount of turns it has been asleep. Hell I can almost see sleep abusers + phazers as a thing just because of how stupid it is that you can just constantly phaze until a non sleeping target is in and just put that to sleep as well. This has been evidenced in some vgc games were amoongus singlehandedly won games just by using spore to incapacitate multiple of the opponents mons. Are there ways to stop it? Most certainly, but similar to how your opp can run support to ensure sleep doesn't happen, you can choose to run support in the forms of fake out/taunt/encore/etc to neuter attempts at sleep blocking essentially.
The second change is the grass type immunity and overcoat buff to powder/spore moves, while it may not seem like the most critical factor, matters quite abit when you realize that prior to gen 6, the only things immune to sleep powder/spore are insomnia/vital spirit users and the users aren't that great with only 9 fully evolved users, most of which are pretty crappy. Now thanks to the grass and overcoat buff, a whole plethora of mons are now able to check sleep rather than a select few shitmons.
Overall it's due to these two changes that made sleep not broken in gen 6.
Why should we remove Sleep Clause?
In the regular OU metagame, Sleep is pretty powerful. When used properly, sleep can make at least one pokemon useless. Sleep Clause prevents sleep from defining the metagame and becoming too powerful. This allows the metagame to remain balanced. However, in Doubles, this isn't the case. In singles, when your pokemon is put to sleep, you can't do ANYTHING that turn. In Doubles, at least one of your pokemon can do something, reducing the impact of sleep. Doubles games are usually very fast anyway, so by taking the time to put multiple pokemon to sleep, you lose time to attack. Using multiple sleep inducers, in a sense, becomes a viable "strategy" in Doubles. We didn't even need Sleep Clause in the first place, it was just carried over from the list of clauses in OU.
There are a number of viable ways to counter sleep, especially now that powder moves don't work on grass types.
Safeguard is pretty easy to use in Doubles. Quite a few pokemon get it, and some already viable, such as Cresselia. Meowstic has Prankster to quickly block sleep.
Many grass types are used in Doubles, such as Skymin and Venusaur. Obviously, they are immune to powder sleep.
Protect us another huge way to beat sleep. Since the opponent can only put on Pokémon to sleep at a time. a good player can predict which one it is and adequately protect and waste the opponent's turn.
In the regular OU metagame, Sleep is pretty powerful. When used properly, sleep can make at least one pokemon useless. Sleep Clause prevents sleep from defining the metagame and becoming too powerful. This allows the metagame to remain balanced. However, in Doubles, this isn't the case. In singles, when your pokemon is put to sleep, you can't do ANYTHING that turn. In Doubles, at least one of your pokemon can do something, reducing the impact of sleep. Doubles games are usually very fast anyway, so by taking the time to put multiple pokemon to sleep, you lose time to attack. Using multiple sleep inducers, in a sense, becomes a viable "strategy" in Doubles. We didn't even need Sleep Clause in the first place, it was just carried over from the list of clauses in OU.
There are a number of viable ways to counter sleep, especially now that powder moves don't work on grass types.
- Safeguard
- Grass Types
- Protect
Safeguard is pretty easy to use in Doubles. Quite a few pokemon get it, and some already viable, such as Cresselia. Meowstic has Prankster to quickly block sleep.
Many grass types are used in Doubles, such as Skymin and Venusaur. Obviously, they are immune to powder sleep.
Protect us another huge way to beat sleep. Since the opponent can only put on Pokémon to sleep at a time. a good player can predict which one it is and adequately protect and waste the opponent's turn.
You missed my point completely and utterly; those were not my questions.
When I "asked" those two questions, I meant them as rhetorical questions; they are the backbone of reasoning for their respective general opinions.
Example 1: Asurf's posts tl;dr = Why would we remove it?
Example 2: Bio's post tl;dr = Why do we have it here in the first place?
Also, as a response to the rest of your post, I don't actually think that the overall reason Sleep is less broken is because of all the new gen changes, I think it's more because of the fact that Sleep is generally much more balanced in a Doubles metagame where it can be played around than in a Singles metagame. Of course these new changes and buffs / nerfs have made Sleep much less reliable and broken, but I don't even think it was broken back in gen 5. Game Freak is focusing much more on balancing a Doubles metagame than a Singles metagame - they put a lot of focus on VGC - so Sleep spam is probably one of the examples from Pokemon that is broken in Singles but not in Doubles.
Back in Gen 5 we were so focused around creating our own official Smogon metagame, that we might just have been blind to the fact that Sleep isn't really broken in a Doubles format. I mean sure, it's even less broken in Gen 6, but with the focus around controlling our own Doubles meta through a Smogon mindset, of course we wanted Sleep Clause. Now, I don't think we need it anymore, and as stated in my last post, I'd rather not have something restricted if it isn't broken.
Ok I tried to get a solid impression from the higher and lower ladder alike using several alts, to see how the lack of sleep clause affects the metagame for all players and not just some elite or the less skillful battlers.
Sadly I could´t read all posts in this thread although I´m sure all posters deserve it, but my time is limited after all :)
First of all, it´s still hard to say weather the sleep condition is broken. It´s hardly used on the ladder which might be a hint.
Whenever I had to battle a team that focussed on sleep, it was no problem, but that was to be expected I guess.
Doubles is a tier highly devoted to disruption and getting your own strategy to work against any attempt to disrupt.
Strategies that need a high amount of support are prone to fail if the opponent realizes whats going on.
Much more important is the question, how good of a support move sleep is. If I can believe bulbapedia´s data and my experience, sleep incapacitates for up to 3 turns this generation with all numbers being somewhat equally possible.
Comparing it to other support/ disruption moves, I see it on par but of course very different from moves like FakeOut, Protect moves or even Screens.
What sets it apart is the ability to do several things at once, but often with a comparable risk of missing the intended target like Swagger or getting outplayed with Taunt, Safeguard or RagePowder.
Sleep reduces the overall damage your Pokemon take and reduces the amount of disruption you will suffer, thus increases the setup opportunities on your side.
But inducing sleep on the second opponent is much less rewarding than it might seem. The lower amount of remaining sleep turns on target 1 and increased chance to roll for low-turn-naps makes it not as desirable as some users seem to believe.
From my experience, players that are unprepared for sleep messing up their game plan, are often just as easily puzzled when they are facing other status conditions.
Pokemon that I found especially useful on my different( some were trollish, I admit) teams, were bulky Talonflame with Taunt and Roost, Support Darkrai with WillOWisp/Snarl/FoulPlay, SupportKlefki, where Swagger was only one of the many contributions it made, but even more often SupportLatias @ RockyHelmet + HealingWish/Screens/MoveofChoice as it can help you out of a mess.
Sadly I could´t read all posts in this thread although I´m sure all posters deserve it, but my time is limited after all :)
First of all, it´s still hard to say weather the sleep condition is broken. It´s hardly used on the ladder which might be a hint.
Whenever I had to battle a team that focussed on sleep, it was no problem, but that was to be expected I guess.
Doubles is a tier highly devoted to disruption and getting your own strategy to work against any attempt to disrupt.
Strategies that need a high amount of support are prone to fail if the opponent realizes whats going on.
Much more important is the question, how good of a support move sleep is. If I can believe bulbapedia´s data and my experience, sleep incapacitates for up to 3 turns this generation with all numbers being somewhat equally possible.
Comparing it to other support/ disruption moves, I see it on par but of course very different from moves like FakeOut, Protect moves or even Screens.
What sets it apart is the ability to do several things at once, but often with a comparable risk of missing the intended target like Swagger or getting outplayed with Taunt, Safeguard or RagePowder.
Sleep reduces the overall damage your Pokemon take and reduces the amount of disruption you will suffer, thus increases the setup opportunities on your side.
But inducing sleep on the second opponent is much less rewarding than it might seem. The lower amount of remaining sleep turns on target 1 and increased chance to roll for low-turn-naps makes it not as desirable as some users seem to believe.
From my experience, players that are unprepared for sleep messing up their game plan, are often just as easily puzzled when they are facing other status conditions.
Pokemon that I found especially useful on my different( some were trollish, I admit) teams, were bulky Talonflame with Taunt and Roost, Support Darkrai with WillOWisp/Snarl/FoulPlay, SupportKlefki, where Swagger was only one of the many contributions it made, but even more often SupportLatias @ RockyHelmet + HealingWish/Screens/MoveofChoice as it can help you out of a mess.
As voting starts today I'm just gonna go ahead and state my thoughts on sleep and hopefully just consolidate the arguments put forward in this thread.
Sleep isn't broken because of checks that can be easily implemented on any team.
This seems to be the main opinion on why sleep isn't broken. Powder moves being the main means for sleep inducing means that having a grass type goes a long way to checking most forms of sleep. There are 10 grass types in the A and B category of the viability rankings plus goodra who is immune to grass movesand aromatisse who is immune to sleep. This is a good 16% of all mons in these categories and when you add all their usage together you get 41.5% which accounts for a very large portion of the metagame; this is without considering any poke below B rank. On top of grass types there are plenty of moves and items that check it as well. Lum berry and safety goggles have become more popular on pokes that are likely to absorb sleep like togekiss, jirachi and rotom-heat. Safeguard blocks your whole team from it, sub shits on inducers not named jumpluff and fake out flinches an inducer for long enough for you partner to take it out/ weaken it.
The prevailing opinion is that these checks make sleep a force that is not only undeserving of banning but actually fairly easy to check.
Sleep isn't broken because of the nature of Doubles.
Sleep is broken in singles because it leaves situations where you are guaranteed to sleep an opposing poke and shutting down 100% of the opponent's ability to move. In doubles, because of protect/ fake out/ follow me/ any of the above checks, you have a much reduced chance to sleep something and you max you can do is shut down 50% of the opponents ability to do something. In every doubles game there are 50/50s with protect and you need to predict right to do anything. This is true of so many pokes and strategies in doubles and it's the main reason why darkrai, deo-a, blaziken, kang and a few others are not even close to being broken. When you have two pokes on the field to check another poke, everything becomes easier. The same is true for sleep. While a bisharp or an aegislash will be unable to kill an amoongus on their own, the combination of the two can easily take it out before it gets a chance to do anything.
Sleep needs too much team support to be broken.
I have not seen any strong keep sleep clause posts so it seems pretty redundant at this point to try to argue against it and I'm happy about that, it completely deserves to be freed.
Sleep isn't broken because of checks that can be easily implemented on any team.
This seems to be the main opinion on why sleep isn't broken. Powder moves being the main means for sleep inducing means that having a grass type goes a long way to checking most forms of sleep. There are 10 grass types in the A and B category of the viability rankings plus goodra who is immune to grass moves
The prevailing opinion is that these checks make sleep a force that is not only undeserving of banning but actually fairly easy to check.
Sleep isn't broken because of the nature of Doubles.
Sleep is broken in singles because it leaves situations where you are guaranteed to sleep an opposing poke and shutting down 100% of the opponent's ability to move. In doubles, because of protect/ fake out/ follow me/ any of the above checks, you have a much reduced chance to sleep something and you max you can do is shut down 50% of the opponents ability to do something. In every doubles game there are 50/50s with protect and you need to predict right to do anything. This is true of so many pokes and strategies in doubles and it's the main reason why darkrai, deo-a, blaziken, kang and a few others are not even close to being broken. When you have two pokes on the field to check another poke, everything becomes easier. The same is true for sleep. While a bisharp or an aegislash will be unable to kill an amoongus on their own, the combination of the two can easily take it out before it gets a chance to do anything.
Sleep needs too much team support to be broken.
(my post in the meta discussion thread).
I have not seen any strong keep sleep clause posts so it seems pretty redundant at this point to try to argue against it and I'm happy about that, it completely deserves to be freed.
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Good discussion going, guys. I'll keep this thread open while the council and I identify the eligible voters (actual voting may most probably not happen today). So start/keep on discussing to help improve your chance in being included into the voter pool. Also don't forget to post in the Metagame Discussion thread as well.
Can't really add something new because he pretty much wrote my opinion about sleep.
Its not really hard to outplay but it can help many teams to shut down specific threats for a short time and help you to gain momentum. If someones gets his entire team sleeped without a chance to stop it, its almost always because his team isn't prepared enough.
(except dark void/transform/tailwind/ks smeargle, fuck it)
WAIT FOR ME
As much as I prefer it, Sleep Clause isn't strictly necessary in the metagame. Pretty much every reason has already been stated and restated, but for the sake of making a post with content in it I'll just re-restate stuff. You can't exactly spam Spore / Sleep Powder without some consequences - namely getting your partner or potentially your Sleeper knocked out by the target's partner. There's a lot of countermeasures (Safeguard, Lum Berry, Safety Goggles Follow Me, Grass-types, Overcoat, fast Taunt, just plain outspeeding shit, hell even Sweet Veil if you're one of those weird people using Slurpuff). The impact on the metagame is fairly minimal. I've seen a shift to faster-paced offense personally, but that could easily be attributed to simple metagame trends.
It'll hurt our playerbase.
Yes, I know, Sleep Clause isn't strictly necessary - but I am deeply concerned about the effects it will have on both keeping existing players and taking in new players. While a fairly large portion of our playerbase joined with prior experience in VGC, many of our members come from OU, which has (and is unlikely to lose) Sleep Clause. These players, used to a metagame where their team isn't constantly at risk of a mass nap attack, will likely be turned off of Doubles the second their Heatran and Charizard both get put to sleep in the same battle. I know I've had several battles where I've been cursed out for a little Spore spam because people didn't realize that's what we were suspecting before.
As the leader of Other Metagames, being able to attract and keep a playerbase is very important to me - and removing Sleep Clause seems like a step in the wrong direction if we choose to go through with it. Of course, the lack of Sleep Clause could end up drawing in more players from the other side of the spectrum, but in this case I would very much rather maintain the status quo.
Yes, I know, Sleep Clause isn't strictly necessary - but I am deeply concerned about the effects it will have on both keeping existing players and taking in new players. While a fairly large portion of our playerbase joined with prior experience in VGC, many of our members come from OU, which has (and is unlikely to lose) Sleep Clause. These players, used to a metagame where their team isn't constantly at risk of a mass nap attack, will likely be turned off of Doubles the second their Heatran and Charizard both get put to sleep in the same battle. I know I've had several battles where I've been cursed out for a little Spore spam because people didn't realize that's what we were suspecting before.
As the leader of Other Metagames, being able to attract and keep a playerbase is very important to me - and removing Sleep Clause seems like a step in the wrong direction if we choose to go through with it. Of course, the lack of Sleep Clause could end up drawing in more players from the other side of the spectrum, but in this case I would very much rather maintain the status quo.
I personally think Shaymin-S deserves a suspect test in the sleep metagame, but right now isn't the time. (I might just be salty anyway blah)
I honestly think that it's something all players have to adapt. If you are to play in a different metagame, you have to be prepared to learn how to deal with the things that are present in that metagame, purely and simple. If you are to play Ubers, you have to know what you'll find that. The same goes for VGC and for Doubles. Each metagame has different nuances, and the players must adapt.
Sleep clause is not necessary for Doubles, because it's an unreliable strategy, and the lack of it will attract more players, like me, that mainly play VGC, and want to try a new way to play it, without chosing 4 to bring to the table, which means only one Mega per team and a little deeper thinking while teambuilding.
I'm rather neutral to sleep per say but I can see both advantages as well as disadvantages with removing the sleep clause, especially in a metagame filled with MKangaskhans. But if I had to choose I'd go with keeping the sleep clause but never mind me... (Yes I use Venusaur before any of you call me biased, and yes I play with a defensive team).
However, I'm more interested in suggesting suspects actually. It's a shame MKangaskhan is legal as she over-centralizes the metagame (even though most people voted for her; would be interesting to see how many actually used a MKangakshan when they voted in her favour and vice versa...) but anyway I would like to see another eventual suspect if sleep clause gets removed. In VGC Fake Out MKangaskhan + Dark Void Smeargle (turn 1) is a devastating combo, especially for defensive teams. Then on turn 2 Smeargle uses Transform on the +2 Atk MKangaskhan that used Power-up Punch and then it's GG, at least to defensive teams who doesn't have the speed nor power and gets wrecked. Trick Room? Scrappy Fake Out... I don't say it's an auto-win but people tend to mostly focus on the offensive aspects of Smogon Doubles, not that this is bad as going offensive is the best (and boring! ;3) way to victory but if we only focus on how offensive teams will do then we get an even more offensive metagame (MKanga hurts defensive teams more for instance but it still isn't banned because offensive teams handle her better). It's a shame people keep forgetting that there are defensive teams and that there's devoted competitive players who play defensively. Yes I agree it's an offensive inclined metagame (unfortunately) but why make it more offensive? Hence, I wanna suspect:
- Dark Void (if not already banned since it's broken) if the sleep clause will be no more
- Shaymin-Sky (two excellent STABs in Air Slash and Seed Flare, becomes next to broken with Serene Grace and 100 / 75 / 75 bulk, and immune to "grass" sleep)
- MCharizard-Y (too much power, so much that even defensive teams struggle to survive; at least offensive teams have the speed to do something about it before it wrecks havoc)
- (MKangaskhan but yeah I know)
- Might be silly, but some sort of balancing regarding legendaries (not because they're "legendary" Pokémon themselves, but they just happen to be legendary) as it's tiring to always see these over-centralizing Pokémon all the time: MKangaskhan / Shamin-Sky / Landorus-T / Heatran / Rotom-W / filler (Hitmontop, Cresselia, Tyranitar, Garchomp, Talonflame etc.) and they have a good synergy too btw. I think by banning MKanga and Skymin we'll get a more balanced/less over-centralizing tier.
* Perish Trap (kidding it's a strategy that utterly destroys defensive teams but offensive teams have less problem with it, still wished Gamefreak could balance Perish Song to 5 turns as that move is a wallbreaker)
Note that I don't say that everything said necessarily is broken but I believe in a metagame that has diversity and creativity and where the aspects "fun" and "balanced" should be more in focus than "it's not broken so let's keep it" even if it's harder to prove. Unfortunately I fail to realize that Smogon Doubles is a diversed metagame with some Pokémon but I still love it.
(Sorry for the somewhat repeated language) 3:
*returns back to void*
However, I'm more interested in suggesting suspects actually. It's a shame MKangaskhan is legal as she over-centralizes the metagame (even though most people voted for her; would be interesting to see how many actually used a MKangakshan when they voted in her favour and vice versa...) but anyway I would like to see another eventual suspect if sleep clause gets removed. In VGC Fake Out MKangaskhan + Dark Void Smeargle (turn 1) is a devastating combo, especially for defensive teams. Then on turn 2 Smeargle uses Transform on the +2 Atk MKangaskhan that used Power-up Punch and then it's GG, at least to defensive teams who doesn't have the speed nor power and gets wrecked. Trick Room? Scrappy Fake Out... I don't say it's an auto-win but people tend to mostly focus on the offensive aspects of Smogon Doubles, not that this is bad as going offensive is the best (and boring! ;3) way to victory but if we only focus on how offensive teams will do then we get an even more offensive metagame (MKanga hurts defensive teams more for instance but it still isn't banned because offensive teams handle her better). It's a shame people keep forgetting that there are defensive teams and that there's devoted competitive players who play defensively. Yes I agree it's an offensive inclined metagame (unfortunately) but why make it more offensive? Hence, I wanna suspect:
- Dark Void (if not already banned since it's broken) if the sleep clause will be no more
- Shaymin-Sky (two excellent STABs in Air Slash and Seed Flare, becomes next to broken with Serene Grace and 100 / 75 / 75 bulk, and immune to "grass" sleep)
- MCharizard-Y (too much power, so much that even defensive teams struggle to survive; at least offensive teams have the speed to do something about it before it wrecks havoc)
- (MKangaskhan but yeah I know)
- Might be silly, but some sort of balancing regarding legendaries (not because they're "legendary" Pokémon themselves, but they just happen to be legendary) as it's tiring to always see these over-centralizing Pokémon all the time: MKangaskhan / Shamin-Sky / Landorus-T / Heatran / Rotom-W / filler (Hitmontop, Cresselia, Tyranitar, Garchomp, Talonflame etc.) and they have a good synergy too btw. I think by banning MKanga and Skymin we'll get a more balanced/less over-centralizing tier.
* Perish Trap (kidding it's a strategy that utterly destroys defensive teams but offensive teams have less problem with it, still wished Gamefreak could balance Perish Song to 5 turns as that move is a wallbreaker)
Note that I don't say that everything said necessarily is broken but I believe in a metagame that has diversity and creativity and where the aspects "fun" and "balanced" should be more in focus than "it's not broken so let's keep it" even if it's harder to prove. Unfortunately I fail to realize that Smogon Doubles is a diversed metagame with some Pokémon but I still love it.
(Sorry for the somewhat repeated language) 3:
*returns back to void*
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Idk why people keep bringing up Shaymin-Sky for a suspect if sleep is freed. The majority of Doubles thinks Sleep Clause should be lifted because there are answers to sleep. Skymin just happens to cockblock sleep spam, going along with their points of punishing teambuilding. If you rely 100% on spamming sleep with teambuilding, of course you are gonna lose to Skymin lol.
There is absolutely no way Skymin is unhealthy for the meta, when using it keeps what we are unbanning in check easier for offensive teams.
Every playstyle needs solid checks to sleep. Faster offensive teams sometimes cannot fit in Safeguard or Lum Berries on their attackers, because they need their coverage and power. Plus, Skymin is literally the only offensive Grass-type we have.
There is absolutely no way Skymin is unhealthy for the meta, when using it keeps what we are unbanning in check easier for offensive teams.
Every playstyle needs solid checks to sleep. Faster offensive teams sometimes cannot fit in Safeguard or Lum Berries on their attackers, because they need their coverage and power. Plus, Skymin is literally the only offensive Grass-type we have.
This pretty much sums up my thinking, along with Arcticblast's concerns. While I do agree that some new folks will be turned off by the idea that they can get Sleep Spammed, just as many will embrace the idea and try it out themselves. And then once they hit a certain point where it stops working (around 1300 ELO) they will start realizing what works and what doesn't, which is the goal anyways. I'm ok with losing a couple new people here and there that can't handle a little extra thought during teambuilding if it means we will have a much better caliber of players joining and learning.
scene
Banned deucer.
Is Sleep broken/too powerful or simply another viable aspect of Pokemon? Is it overcentralizing?
I don't think sleep overcentralises the meta. it's certainly something that has to be taken account of, but there's numerous ways to deal with it - Grass types, powder immunities, Taunt, Safeguard, Lum/Chesto Berry and simply decent prediction and taking advantage of the fact that sleep users aren't actually damaging you, merely trying to status you. If your team lacks at least one of those elements, you're going to struggle with a lot more than just sleep. Sleep's counters are simply too ubiquitous to consider it iovercentralising, and while it's certainly viable the fact that it's been neutered since Gen 5 also plays its part - switching out won't reset your sleep counter anymore. A good and worthy strategy, but not metagame-defining by any means.
Does it restrain teambuilding too much? How much preparation does a team require to combat sleep?
Not really - you need to be prepared for sleep, just like you need to be prepared for other perfectly acceptable strategies and Pokemon. You don't need to perform major surgery on a team to combat sleep, and it doesn't require incredibly well-thought out preparation. But like everything, you've got to keep it in mind when you're building a team.
Does Sleep limit or increase diversity of the metagame?
I don't think it's done either to a great extent. It's cool to see stuff like Jumpluff being used, as well as other interesting sleep users. On the other side, you've got unusual sets and Pokemon designed to deal with sleep, so that's diversity if I ever saw it. Sure, you'll usually see the same old sleep users, but you certainly can't sustain the argument that sleep limits the diversity of the meta for too long. It's not a complete gamechanger, but certainly opens up new avenues of thought for teambuilders.
Does Sleep have an overall positive/neutral/negative impact to the Doubles metagame? How does Sleep affect the metagame?
I think Sleep probably just about positively affects the tier because of the new stuff it brings between inducers and counters, but it's hardly something to write home about. My view is that it doesn't have a colossal affect on the metagame, from experience. Minor, absolutely. Major, not really. Prepare and play against it just like you do when faced with every other strategy - if your team's weak to Sleep, you'll be punished. If it handles it reasonably, it's a decent team and you shouldn't have serious issues with the strategy.
Does the opportunity cost of using sleep balances out the rewards from sleep spam?
Sleep spam is an awful lot of wasted turns and accuracy dice rolls, as well as being utterly ruined by stuff like Safeguard and Taunt. Sleep spam is usable, but I feel the opportunity cost of using sleep balances out the rewards from it.
What are the different checks or counter strategies to combat sleep?
Lots of stuff - Taunt, Lum Berry, Chesto Berry, Safeguard, Grass-types, powder immunities, simple offensive pressure, Sleep's largely imperfect accuracy, Fake Out, Follow Me and Rage Powder on a counter, Protect. All good stuff.
Are there any suspects independent of Sleep that you want to raise attention to the council? Explain your reasoning.
My time laddering was overall highly enjoyable, and nothing beyond misplaying, being outplayed and bad luck stopped me from winning. I don't have anything to bring up, everything seemed very reasonable.
I don't think sleep overcentralises the meta. it's certainly something that has to be taken account of, but there's numerous ways to deal with it - Grass types, powder immunities, Taunt, Safeguard, Lum/Chesto Berry and simply decent prediction and taking advantage of the fact that sleep users aren't actually damaging you, merely trying to status you. If your team lacks at least one of those elements, you're going to struggle with a lot more than just sleep. Sleep's counters are simply too ubiquitous to consider it iovercentralising, and while it's certainly viable the fact that it's been neutered since Gen 5 also plays its part - switching out won't reset your sleep counter anymore. A good and worthy strategy, but not metagame-defining by any means.
Does it restrain teambuilding too much? How much preparation does a team require to combat sleep?
Not really - you need to be prepared for sleep, just like you need to be prepared for other perfectly acceptable strategies and Pokemon. You don't need to perform major surgery on a team to combat sleep, and it doesn't require incredibly well-thought out preparation. But like everything, you've got to keep it in mind when you're building a team.
Does Sleep limit or increase diversity of the metagame?
I don't think it's done either to a great extent. It's cool to see stuff like Jumpluff being used, as well as other interesting sleep users. On the other side, you've got unusual sets and Pokemon designed to deal with sleep, so that's diversity if I ever saw it. Sure, you'll usually see the same old sleep users, but you certainly can't sustain the argument that sleep limits the diversity of the meta for too long. It's not a complete gamechanger, but certainly opens up new avenues of thought for teambuilders.
Does Sleep have an overall positive/neutral/negative impact to the Doubles metagame? How does Sleep affect the metagame?
I think Sleep probably just about positively affects the tier because of the new stuff it brings between inducers and counters, but it's hardly something to write home about. My view is that it doesn't have a colossal affect on the metagame, from experience. Minor, absolutely. Major, not really. Prepare and play against it just like you do when faced with every other strategy - if your team's weak to Sleep, you'll be punished. If it handles it reasonably, it's a decent team and you shouldn't have serious issues with the strategy.
Does the opportunity cost of using sleep balances out the rewards from sleep spam?
Sleep spam is an awful lot of wasted turns and accuracy dice rolls, as well as being utterly ruined by stuff like Safeguard and Taunt. Sleep spam is usable, but I feel the opportunity cost of using sleep balances out the rewards from it.
What are the different checks or counter strategies to combat sleep?
Lots of stuff - Taunt, Lum Berry, Chesto Berry, Safeguard, Grass-types, powder immunities, simple offensive pressure, Sleep's largely imperfect accuracy, Fake Out, Follow Me and Rage Powder on a counter, Protect. All good stuff.
Are there any suspects independent of Sleep that you want to raise attention to the council? Explain your reasoning.
My time laddering was overall highly enjoyable, and nothing beyond misplaying, being outplayed and bad luck stopped me from winning. I don't have anything to bring up, everything seemed very reasonable.
I agree that you can't spam spore, but surely you can spam fake out + spore leads which I have seen running around on the ladder? Even if the person has lum berry , the fake out flinch can allow you to scout for that and sleep the poke again.
And I said said before, I am not fully against sleep - but it is something that definitely changes my team building, movesets, and play style. If something does that I believe it should at least get consideration to be nerfed in some way.
I mean if they keep on switching in and out and spamming fake out + spore if you have a team that has a lot of fake out + sporers (eg; mega kanga + smeargle) it can count as spam no? and thanks :D
I'm sorry, but maybe you don't properly understand the nature of Doubles. The metagame is way faster than singles OU, and that's the main reason it was chosen as Nintendo's official Meta. Even with 6 instead of 4, it's still a fast metagame. The amount of switches is really limited, since your Pokémon can be double targetted and die instantly, or your other Pokémon will.
Sure , you can have two or three fake out users, and two or three sleep inducers, but that will limit your team, and a simple and common lead, such as Quick Guard + Prankster Safeguard will kill you
Even at VGC, with Dark Void being allowed, a Japanese player said it really well: If your entire team depends upon Dark Void hitting, and a miss or item can kill you, then your team should just be thrown away. Sleep is just another status problem. Paraflinch is way more annoying than sleep. Parafusion is way more annoying than sleep, since with this you not only have a slim chance of attacking, but also can hit yourself, and strongly, if you are a physical attacker.
Sleep adds another level of strategy while team building, another thing to think about, and it's completely unreliable as the only means for your team to win.
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jrp
Banned deucer.
adding on to what's been said, more often than not, giving up a team slot for a sleep inducer can end up being a detriment rather than a benefit. With the fact that most sleep inducers are slow as hell combined with the relative frailty (amoonguss being the bulkiest while ... jumpluff in the sun being the fastest?) you can generally find something that can give you more value for the moveslot than a sleep inducer. If you're just gonna build a team with 6 sleep inducers and expect to win without properly supporting it, you're guaranteeing yourself a loss. Sleep is kind of in the middle of the spectrum; it's neither bad nor amazing and it sits along the line where it can easily be dealt with with minimal effort
fucking arcticblast
more often than not Pwnemon dislikes people saying more often than not
fucking arcticblast
more often than not Pwnemon dislikes people saying more often than not
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I think Venusaur is the only exception of a sleep inducer that is bulky, is not a slug and also can hit pretty hard. I'm really thinking about parting ways with my beloved Amoonguss solely for the fact that it can't OHKO anything on his own, doesn't have spread moves and has only 5 usable moves. And with Talonflame everywhere, he sometimes doesn't even survive turn one.
From what I've seen when I laddered for reqs sleep doesn't really restrain teambuilding or affect the diversity in the metagame. There's not much you can do to block it other than running Grass-types or a specific item anyways so it's a bad idea to overprepare for it. However, it does force one to play around it a lot during a match. Just because you have something to absorb sleep doesn't mean that you're safe from something spamming Spore. Losing one Pokemon to sleep is fine, but having half your team slept by something like Breloom or Amoonguss doesn't sound very balanced to me, espeically since it doesn't take much skill to accomplish that.
Man, safeguard solves that problem as, even without prankster, you're likely to outspeed sleep inducers.
Besides that, leading with prankster swagger and thunder wave is way more annoying. Paraflinch is way more difficult to deal with, since there's no item to save you from it, and people are not going crazy over that.
Imho, people complaining about sleep spam are only lazy and want to adapt singles strategy to doubles, instead of trying to learn an entirely new meta.
Besides that, leading with prankster swagger and thunder wave is way more annoying. Paraflinch is way more difficult to deal with, since there's no item to save you from it, and people are not going crazy over that.
Imho, people complaining about sleep spam are only lazy and want to adapt singles strategy to doubles, instead of trying to learn an entirely new meta.
Is Sleep broken/too powerful or simply another viable aspect of Pokemon? Is it overcentralizing?
Sleep is powerful alright, but it isnt broken. It isnt overcentralizing because the number of reliable sleep abusers are low and good team support is needed to pull it off.And if we are using sleep powder instead of spore, then the chances of missing may even hinder your cause.
Does it restrain teambuilding too much? How much preparation does a team require to combat sleep?
Since this was a suspect test, most teams tended to carry some sort of answer to sleep users. A good team should be able to counter sleep just fine by careful switching, stalling, using grass types, safeguard, safety goggles etc. But I did feel it was important to have at least one dedicated counter to amoonguss. I myself used a safeguard meowstic. I would normally have used t-wave on meowstic but without safeguard I was pretty sleep weak.I have also seen toxic orb magic guard clefable instead of using the regular sitrus berry or leftovers. So it did restrain teambuilding a little for me as I would have liked to free up that slot for more attacking/stalling potential.
Does Sleep limit or increase diversity of the metagame?
The grass types definitely got a boost in usage. More grass types and counters to grass types were used. Hail, sun and even rain was used to check chlorophyll users.
Does Sleep have an overall positive/neutral/negative impact to the Doubles metagame? How does Sleep affect the metagame?
I am kind of unsure about this one. The good players didnt really have much trouble climbing the ladder. The new players seemed a tad uncomfortable with the no sleep clause thing. It might hinder the prospect of new players coming to doubles. The action gets really dull when both pokes are sleeping. The no sleep clause thing pretty much forces you to run at least one sleep counter. I am 50-50 on this one.
Does the opportunity cost of using sleep balances out the rewards from sleep spam?
Putting an opponent to sleep means nothing if you cant make good use of the free turn(s). So when paired with a strong partner, a sleep user can bring in free turns to setup. Sleep is really handy when you know how to use it well.
What are the different checks or counter strategies to combat sleep?
The ususal...grass types, safeguard, misty terrain(doesn't stop confusion though), double targetting, taunt, substitute, lum berry, sllep tak(lol) etc. But a good sleep user will more often than not manage to put atleast one guy to sleep.
Are there any suspects independent of Sleep that you want to raise attention to the council?
None at the moment.
Sleep is powerful alright, but it isnt broken. It isnt overcentralizing because the number of reliable sleep abusers are low and good team support is needed to pull it off.And if we are using sleep powder instead of spore, then the chances of missing may even hinder your cause.
Does it restrain teambuilding too much? How much preparation does a team require to combat sleep?
Since this was a suspect test, most teams tended to carry some sort of answer to sleep users. A good team should be able to counter sleep just fine by careful switching, stalling, using grass types, safeguard, safety goggles etc. But I did feel it was important to have at least one dedicated counter to amoonguss. I myself used a safeguard meowstic. I would normally have used t-wave on meowstic but without safeguard I was pretty sleep weak.I have also seen toxic orb magic guard clefable instead of using the regular sitrus berry or leftovers. So it did restrain teambuilding a little for me as I would have liked to free up that slot for more attacking/stalling potential.
Does Sleep limit or increase diversity of the metagame?
The grass types definitely got a boost in usage. More grass types and counters to grass types were used. Hail, sun and even rain was used to check chlorophyll users.
Does Sleep have an overall positive/neutral/negative impact to the Doubles metagame? How does Sleep affect the metagame?
I am kind of unsure about this one. The good players didnt really have much trouble climbing the ladder. The new players seemed a tad uncomfortable with the no sleep clause thing. It might hinder the prospect of new players coming to doubles. The action gets really dull when both pokes are sleeping. The no sleep clause thing pretty much forces you to run at least one sleep counter. I am 50-50 on this one.
Does the opportunity cost of using sleep balances out the rewards from sleep spam?
Putting an opponent to sleep means nothing if you cant make good use of the free turn(s). So when paired with a strong partner, a sleep user can bring in free turns to setup. Sleep is really handy when you know how to use it well.
What are the different checks or counter strategies to combat sleep?
The ususal...grass types, safeguard, misty terrain(doesn't stop confusion though), double targetting, taunt, substitute, lum berry, sllep tak(lol) etc. But a good sleep user will more often than not manage to put atleast one guy to sleep.
Are there any suspects independent of Sleep that you want to raise attention to the council?
None at the moment.
blinkie
¯\_( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)_/¯ dank meme crew
I don't think sleep is broken...
There aren't that many decent sleep users, and they require lots of team support like Amoonguss.
Sleep doesn't really restrain teambuilding as it isn't that hard to counter. Everyone with a decent team should carry an Amoonguss check anyways.
The immunity to spore from grass types really doesn't help either.
At first I ran into a bit of trouble from sleep, and I found that it was quite easy to just double-target Amoonguss.
However I don't like sleep b/c of the luck factor involved...3-4 turn sleep cost me a lot of games.
Eventually to stop sleep I just ran Lum berry cofragius as one of my TR setters, and also Fire Punch on Marowak. This basically killed all of the sleep users I encountered. Good switching/prediction also helped a lot.
Sleep does increase the "hax" amount, and it also leads to more and more sleep users to check them. So yes, sleep did restrain teambuilding a little as fire punch was basically for sleep users, but I don't think its that bad as a good player can easily check it and turn into another kind of gimmick, like parafusion.
There aren't that many decent sleep users, and they require lots of team support like Amoonguss.
Sleep doesn't really restrain teambuilding as it isn't that hard to counter. Everyone with a decent team should carry an Amoonguss check anyways.
The immunity to spore from grass types really doesn't help either.
At first I ran into a bit of trouble from sleep, and I found that it was quite easy to just double-target Amoonguss.
However I don't like sleep b/c of the luck factor involved...3-4 turn sleep cost me a lot of games.
Eventually to stop sleep I just ran Lum berry cofragius as one of my TR setters, and also Fire Punch on Marowak. This basically killed all of the sleep users I encountered. Good switching/prediction also helped a lot.
Sleep does increase the "hax" amount, and it also leads to more and more sleep users to check them. So yes, sleep did restrain teambuilding a little as fire punch was basically for sleep users, but I don't think its that bad as a good player can easily check it and turn into another kind of gimmick, like parafusion.
Stratos
Banned deucer.
finally an argument that isn't just "I realize it's not broken but i just don't personally like it." However, I don't think the argument that sleep clause being removed would deter people from playing holds water—at least, it wouldn't deter the kind of people we WANT playing. Anyone from other tiers who tries out doubles has to approach it with an open mind anyways because it's so different; removing sleep clause is hardly going to be the straw that breaks the camel's back and makes them stop playing. If no sleep clause scares anyone off, it would be the people who try to use OU teams in Doubles anyways or worse, and sue me for not crying if we lose those folks. There's been no evidence that the sleep test has scared off potential Doubles contributors—this test has drawn far more people than the first Suspect Test, and most of them have been saying that sleep isn't broken, despite having never played the meta when sleep clause was here!
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