Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion

[DaRkRaii]

It's way too early to start another suspect or petition. Blastoise much like Metagross are going to be the premier threats it seems, but let's give it a bit of time before professing anything.

 

[Sputnik]

You know what, I'm bored. I mentioned some megas here earlier but not...all of them. I'm not gonna cover all of them but here's how some more of them do (I covered most of the really good ones earlier so in general these aren't as good)

Hey look, its a rain sweeper! Rain is still pretty good in the format as it got a new tool in Dracovish and none of the new stuff really deals with rain all that well, although it did take a hit thanks to the collective anti-Dracovish effort making it harder to spam water STAB. Mega Swampert is on every single rain team, and I shouldn't have to explain why (Stealth Rock, Electric Immunity, switches into Ttar, really powerful, etc.). If ur running rain this has to be on your team, end of story.

I guess its theoretically still a good stallbreaker but I'm not really sure why you would run this over the multitude of other options for smashing through stall that we have. Still with Dmax gone its not totally outclassed by its normal forme anymore so that's something I suppose.

This still clings to its niche on stall teams in the fact that it stonewalls most of the tiers physical attackers (although, crucially, not Dracovish). It also checks Scarf Darm (albeit, barely) and gives Stall a surefire way to deal with things like Kartana and Mega-Mawile which is nice. Just load up on wish support and this should still put in some work.

This still works in theory although why you are using this over any other Mega Evolution I'm not really sure, especially since normal Tyranitar is still really solid in its own right.

Yeah that speed tier is even more unacceptable these days. Normal Chomp has taken a huge hit in the generational shift and Mega Chomp was already fairly niche before. The mixed sets still scare the shit out of bulkier builds but as it stands that just isn't the meta right now, and Mega Chomp doesn't particularly care for going up against powerful offensive teams.

Tapu Lele got nerfed so maybe this thing will see a bit of a resurgence. I feel like people playing Gen 7 forgot how powerful this thing actually is because Tapu Lele existed. Getting Mystical Fire is very nice as well, although its admittedly on the slower side. Makes up for it with raw power though. Hilariously you could now run an all out attacker set with HP Ground for Heatran and still be able to hit Ferrothorn cuz of Mystical Fire. Doubt that will be super viable but you could theoretically fashion this into the ultimate breaker of balance cores.

This had some degree of viability in Gen 7 OU imo but it's completely outmatched here. It's hilariously one of the best Dugtrio checks possible but that's just about all it does in a meta as fast paced as this.

The things that this checked before aren't as common and Trick Room teams have more, better options available. Sorry Camerupt.

A whole host of new threats annoy this thing (Darm, Vish, Pult, that sort of thing) but it's still alright at beating what it did in Gen 7. Maybe someone will experiment with this but being that weak to all the shiny new toys makes it a questionable choice currently.

This loses to a lot of new stuff and it wasn't very good in Gen 7 OU either. Slamming Mega-Metagross with Overheat and sitting on Mega-Scizor is admittedly nice but all the fast new powerful stuff just outruns and beats it. Wouldn't bother with it in the current meta but it could still probably work in a VoltTurn core.

N_Mareanie went into this thing already so read his post about it. TL;DR it's still pretty good.

Interestingly, Sun isn't actually too bad in this meta in my experience and if you don't want to use a Charizard than this should be your go to Mega on those teams. It hits like a freight train even if you don't get a Nasty Plot up, and if you do something is going to die. It's all fun and games until Chansey has a chance to get OHKOd after Stealth Rock by a Special Attack. Setting up is a chore and the "Big Three" of Vish, Darm, and Pult that I've been mentioning a lot give it a lot of trouble but this thing is honestly a bulkier squads worst nightmare if sun is up.

Still great on TR and a High-Risk/High-Reward type wallbreaker outside of it, although it's pretty slow for this metagame. Corviknight is easily 2HKOd by this things CC, although its a tad slow for the metagame at large in my opinion.

Well, that was a post and a half. A lot of these aren't super good but the meta just went through a huge shift so go experiment and find some new stuff!

 

[theotherguytm]

I've been looking into Volcanion as a Vish check, the main issue with it is:
252 SpA Volcanion Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dracovish: 119-140 (37 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dracovish: 54-64 (16.8 - 19.9%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Strong Jaw Dracovish Psychic Fangs vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Volcanion: 101-119 (33.5 - 39.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (Boots does not change this)
It can't do anything to Vish. It has to run WOW or HP Dragon (you know you're desperate when you're running obscure HPs) to beat it. And it loses to Banded/Rain Vish too:
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Psychic Fangs vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Volcanion: 151-178 (50.1 - 59.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
While you are faster than Banded Adamant Fish if you fully invest, Vish being Scarf in rain or Jolly is going to turn your Vish check into food. This is with the old offensive build, so I've been looking into defensively EVing it.
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Volcanion: 113-133 (31 - 36.5%) -- 65.6% chance to 3HKO
You'd probably run WOW to beat it, Defog so it helps your team, and then I don't like the idea of running Steam Eruption and WOW on the same set. It's a bit redundant. But Steam Eruption is still a good move? So what do you think?
(No, it's not a good Garm check: 252 Atk Gorilla Tactics Darmanitan-Galar Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Volcanion: 220-260 (60.4 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. Though it does wall its other moves to hell.)

 

[Cuddly]

It's way too early to start another suspect or petition. Blastoise much like Metagross are going to be the premier threats it seems, but let's give it a bit of time before professing anything.

Perhaps, but it’s just speculation right now.

 

[UltraxBlade]

I've been looking into Volcanion as a Vish check, the main issue with it is:
252 SpA Volcanion Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dracovish: 119-140 (37 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dracovish: 54-64 (16.8 - 19.9%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Strong Jaw Dracovish Psychic Fangs vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Volcanion: 101-119 (33.5 - 39.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (Boots does not change this)
It can't do anything to Vish. It has to run WOW or HP Dragon (you know you're desperate when you're running obscure HPs) to beat it. And it loses to Banded/Rain Vish too:
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Psychic Fangs vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Volcanion: 151-178 (50.1 - 59.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
While you are faster than Banded Adamant Fish if you fully invest, Vish being Scarf in rain or Jolly is going to turn your Vish check into food. This is with the old offensive build, so I've been looking into defensively EVing it.
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Volcanion: 113-133 (31 - 36.5%) -- 65.6% chance to 3HKO
You'd probably run WOW to beat it, Defog so it helps your team, and then I don't like the idea of running Steam Eruption and WOW on the same set. It's a bit redundant. But Steam Eruption is still a good move? So what do you think?
(No, it's not a good Garm check: 252 Atk Gorilla Tactics Darmanitan-Galar Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Volcanion: 220-260 (60.4 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. Though it does wall its other moves to hell.)

A reminder on these mons is that they’re no longer able to break their choice locks without dmax, which Volcanion especially can exploit to all hell. Vish locking into anything other than Rend is basically a free switch, as Vish without Rend is pretty weak. Volc can revenge GDarm even if it goes for quake, as it can take one quake and flamethrower is an easy kill, and of course coming in on anything other than quake forces GDarm out and it locking into Quake to nail Volcanion still lets you get a favorable switch out of that. It’s not a perfect check, but nothing really is, and the removal of Dmax to break choice locks gives Volcanion a much easier time against these mons.

 

[theotherguytm]

A reminder on these mons is that they’re no longer able to break their choice locks without dmax, which Volcanion especially can exploit to all hell. Vish locking into anything other than Rend is basically a free switch, as Vish without Rend is pretty weak. Volc can revenge GDarm even if it goes for quake, as it can take one quake and flamethrower is an easy kill, and of course coming in on anything other than quake forces GDarm out and it locking into Quake to nail Volcanion still lets you get a favorable switch out of that. It’s not a perfect check, but nothing really is, and the removal of Dmax to break choice locks gives Volcanion a much easier time against these mons.

It goes both ways. Garm and Vish are not good mons to be using Dmax on, outside of the surprise of breaking Choice, and Volc could Dmax to tank an extra hit from them. And without recovery, Volc is super-easy to wear down with U-turn etc, and as those calcs show, Vish can beat Volc 1v1 if it predicts the switch-in unless Volc goes out of its way to beat it. With Vish you know they can't afford to not bring in their water immunity, else they risk losing a mon.
And: 252 Atk Choice Band Gorilla Tactics Darmanitan-Galar Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Volcanion: 328-388 (90.1 - 106.5%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

 

[KirbCena]

Tapu Lele got nerfed so maybe this thing will see a bit of a resurgence. I feel like people playing Gen 7 forgot how powerful this thing actually is because Tapu Lele existed. Getting Mystical Fire is very nice as well, although its admittedly on the slower side. Makes up for it with raw power though. Hilariously you could now run an all out attacker set with HP Ground for Heatran and still be able to hit Ferrothorn cuz of Mystical Fire. Doubt that will be super viable but you could theoretically fashion this into the ultimate breaker of balance cores.

I feel like you're forgetting a few key things that prevent this from being as powerful as it could be. Lele still hits harder, and while albeit a bit slower(Gard still speed ties with base 100s, but mostly doesn't outspeed much of what Lele doesn't), is a tiny bit physically bulkier (which is beneficial in a physically oriented meta), doesn't take your mega slot, and provides better immediate firepower despite the terrain nerf. Also, Mega Alakazam pretty much invalidates using Mega Gardevoir, being a shitton faster and being slightly stronger, and if paired with Lele evades priority because again, Psychic Surge. Gard COULD theoretically provide a better matchup against Sub users like Zygarde and Dragapult because of Pixilate Hyper Voice, but tbh it's not like Mega Gardevoir is going to tank anything after a DD and Sub isn't super common. Otherwise your post does a great job at analyzing the other megas NGL.

 

[The Amazonian Rainforest]

Now that a day or so has passed I wanted to start a discussion on Landorus-L. Power stated that the reason he wasn't unbanned last time was because of Max Ooze, which would make sense, because Lando would be an OP dyna abuser, but dynamax is gone now, and looking at Landorus's movepool, stats and typing, I no longer believe that he currently is too volatile for the tier.

The amount of ice coverage is insane in this meta and limits Landorus's ability to switch into things. He's usually KO'd by the most common Hidden Power. He's outsped and OHKO'd by Mega Metagross and Scarf Darm. He fails to KO Mega Blastoise, who then can use Shell Smash. His matchup in rain is pretty bad, too.
Scarf Genesect and Heatran both outspeed and OHKO, too, leading me to my next point: his speed.

Base 101 speed is bad for an AoA wallbreaker who is always relegated to a Life Orb. He's outsped by most relevant scarfers (the aformentioned Darm, Tran, and Genesect, as well as Lele, Dracovish, Landorus-T, and Kartana) and is hit pretty hard by all of them if not outright KO'd. In addition, he is outsped by Mega Metagross, +2 Mega Blastoise, Tapu Koko, +1 Kommo-o, Dragapult, the list goes on and on. Base 101 speed is really shaky for a Pokemon that can only really attack and hope he doesn't get attacked in return.

Next is his movepool. Honestly, its kinds barren. Of course he gets extra options such as Psychic, Knock Off, Grass Knot, Hammer Arm, but he often has 4mss that craps on his only niche: to wallbreak.


Despite this, Lando-L is really strong and I think he would make a great addition to the meta. He is especially weak to the top meta threats but he threatens a lot of the fat cancer shit rn (Pex, Growth, Bulu, Zygarde, Ferro, Aegislash) and especially the last two.

So yeah I think hes alright

 

[KirbCena]

Now that a day or so has passed I wanted to start a discussion on Landorus-L. Power stated that the reason he wasn't unbanned last time was because of Max Ooze, which would make sense, because Lando would be an OP dyna abuser, but dynamax is gone now, and looking at Landorus's movepool, stats and typing, I no longer believe that he currently is too volatile for the tier.

The amount of ice coverage is insane in this meta and limits Landorus's ability to switch into things. He's usually KO'd by the most common Hidden Power. He's outsped and OHKO'd by Mega Metagross and Scarf Darm. He fails to KO Mega Blastoise, who then can use Shell Smash. His matchup in rain is pretty bad, too.
Scarf Genesect and Heatran both outspeed and OHKO, too, leading me to my next point: his speed.

Base 101 speed is bad for an AoA wallbreaker who is always relegated to a Life Orb. He's outsped by most relevant scarfers (the aformentioned Darm, Tran, and Genesect, as well as Lele, Dracovish, Landorus-T, and Kartana) and is hit pretty hard by all of them if not outright KO'd. In addition, he is outsped by Mega Metagross, +2 Mega Blastoise, Tapu Koko, +1 Kommo-o, Dragapult, the list goes on and on. Base 101 speed is really shaky for a Pokemon that can only really attack and hope he doesn't get attacked in return.

Next is his movepool. Honestly, its kinds barren. Of course he gets extra options such as Psychic, Knock Off, Grass Knot, Hammer Arm, but he often has 4mss that craps on his only niche: to wallbreak.


Despite this, Lando-L is really strong and I think he would make a great addition to the meta. He is especially weak to the top meta threats but he threatens a lot of the fat cancer shit rn (Pex, Growth, Bulu, Zygarde, Ferro, Aegislash) and especially the last two.

So yeah I think hes alright

I see 2 rather large issues with unbanning Landorus-Incarnate:
1. Some Lando-I forgo coverage for Rock Polish, meaning offensive checks like Scarf Darm-G and Mega Metagross are no longer reliable in beating it.
2. While many mons in the tier can outspeed Lando-I, especially if scarfed and it doesn't have RP, I don't really see any reliable defensive switchins that can consistently pivot into its moves. Bulky waters like Gastrodon are hit hard by Grass Knot, bulky grasses die to sludge wave, Chansey gets a lot of pressure if Lando-I runs Knock Off and Focus Blast, and bulky steels die to Earth Power (Corviknight and Celesteela are at risk if Gravity or Smack Down become common). Unless you're able to correctly predict the moveset, you're at risk of unintentionally sacking a mon if you mispredicted just so your check can come in and possibly being put in an uncomfortable situation.

 

[LORD SAGIS]

Or, we should try to improve the metagame instead of unbanning more ubers. Why not talk about Mega Blastoise who centralizes the entire metagame with its 1 set. Why not talk about Arena Trap which lets Genesect and G-Darm get past they're counter play with ease. Why not talk about Melmetal whos only switch in is Mega Scizor. These things are more important right now than unbanning another crazy strong Wallbreaker.

 

[Solaros & Lunaris]

Yeah idk why we’re talking about unbanning Lando-I when we could be talking about the new toys in the meta with dmax gone. I’m gonna edit this post later with what’s currently good within the metagame, so wait for that.

 

[The Amazonian Rainforest]

Additionally, we decided not to unban a phew other mons brought up, such as Landorus-I and Pheromosa. Here's our reasoning:

Landorus-I: Landorus-I seems to be an interesting unban, but we were rather worried about its sweeping potential in conjuction with Dynamax. Access to Max Ooze to boost special attack and Max Airstream to boost speed makes Landorus-I a terrifying sweeper, so we did not unban Lando-I.

Here is the official reason why Landorus-Incarnate wasn't banned. Because of his sweeping potential with Max Ooze and Dynamax. And this is now impossible. If this is the official rationale then I see no reason why he cant be unbanned. There are mons that hit way harder and bring more utility than him.

Or, we should try to improve the metagame instead of unbanning more ubers. Why not talk about Mega Blastoise who centralizes the entire metagame with its 1 set. Why not talk about Arena Trap which lets Genesect and G-Darm get past there counter play with ease. Why not talk about Melmetal whos only switch in is Mega Scizor. These things are more important right now than unbanning another crazy strong Wallbreaker.

But...we are talking about Mega Blastoise. And your mention of Arena Trap and Genesect and Darm only reinforces my point: Mega Blastoise, Darm, Genesect, Metagross, these are all as powerful as Landorus-Incarnate, if not more so, yet are unbanned.

The difference between them and Landorus? Landorus can be a great asset to the meta. He threatens shit like SubToxic Aegislash and Zygarde well. There's ample counterplay - almost every other breaker beats him.

Also Melmetal isnt OP at all lol hes objectively worse than Meta in most situations. Slow as hell and exploitable Special defense.

I see 2 rather large issues with unbanning Landorus-Incarnate:
1. Some Lando-I forgo coverage for Rock Polish, meaning offensive checks like Scarf Darm-G and Mega Metagross are no longer reliable in beating it.
2. While many mons in the tier can outspeed Lando-I, especially if scarfed and it doesn't have RP, I don't really see any reliable defensive switchins that can consistently pivot into its moves. Bulky waters like Gastrodon are hit hard by Grass Knot, bulky grasses die to sludge wave, Chansey gets a lot of pressure if Lando-I runs Knock Off and Focus Blast, and bulky steels die to Earth Power (Corviknight and Celesteela are at risk if Gravity or Smack Down become common). Unless you're able to correctly predict the moveset, you're at risk of unintentionally sacking a mon if you mispredicted just so your check can come in and possibly being put in an uncomfortable situation.

Mega Metagross has rock polish but it isnt as common as AoA. Forgoing coverage on Lando means that hes walled by at least one common pivot; no knock off means he's shut down by chansey. No focus blast opens him up to other lando, Sp Def Ferro. No Sludge Wave means Tangrowth and Bulu, etc.

Yeah idk why we’re talking about unbanning Lando-I when we could be talking about the new toys in the meta with dmax gone. I’m gonna edit this post later with what’s currently good within the metagame, so wait for that.

Landorus-Incarnate is a new toy because he was banned because of dynamax. With dmax gone I think the floodgates have opened


Maybe in a meta 8-9 months from now where Mega Blastoise, Darmanitan and Mega Metagross are gone, Landorus will prove to be OP, but currently he seems to be consistent with the overall power level of the meta.

 

[KirbCena]

Or, we should try to improve the metagame instead of unbanning more ubers. Why not talk about Mega Blastoise who centralizes the entire metagame with its 1 set. Why not talk about Arena Trap which lets Genesect and G-Darm get past there counter play with ease. Why not talk about Melmetal whos only switch in is Mega Scizor. These things are more important right now than unbanning another crazy strong Wallbreaker.

Speaking of G-Darm, I've been testing out different mons in the tier a little and I wanted to bring the attention to a set that I've found to be surprisingly effective in the current metagame.

Introducing the once largely forgotten Slowbro!



Slowbro @ Rocky Helmet
Bold Nature
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
- Scald
- Thunder Wave
- Slack Off
- Teleport

Like Chansey and a lot of other mons, Slowbro loves the new Teleport buff giving it a Voltturn that's guaranteed to move last and bring in wallbreakers and sweepers unharmed while simultaneously and consistently walling physical attackers like Mega Metagross, Hawlucha, and G-Darm(Scarf U-turn does 41.6 to 49.2 % damage, which is more than Regenerator heals, but that's what Slack Off is for) , as well as both chipping and crippling them with Scald burns, Rocky Helmet and Twave. It also laughs off Fishious Rend in most cases too, bringing Dracovish in to range of being revenge killed or again crippling it with Twave. Base 100 Sp. Atk and Regenerator also means it isn't too passive either. This is in contrast to the other bulky waters commonly seen on bulky offense/balance in Rotom Wash(who can't run Scald and therefore has to choose between WOW and Twave. It also lacks recovery and has a shitty HP stat) and Toxapex(still a decent mon NGL, but struggles a lot currently). Overall I think Slowbro might have a decent niche this gen.

 

[LunaStik]

Here is the official reason why Landorus-Incarnate wasn't banned. Because of his sweeping potential with Max Ooze and Dynamax. And this is now impossible. If this is the official rationale then I see no reason why he cant be unbanned. There are mons that hit way harder and bring more utility than him.

But...we are talking about Mega Blastoise. And your mention of Arena Trap and Genesect and Darm only reinforces my point: Mega Blastoise, Darm, Genesect, Metagross, these are all as powerful as Landorus-Incarnate, if not more so, yet are unbanned.

The difference between them and Landorus? Landorus can be a great asset to the meta. He threatens shit like SubToxic Aegislash and Zygarde well. There's ample counterplay - almost every other breaker beats him.

Also Melmetal isnt OP at all lol hes objectively worse than Meta in most situations. Slow as hell and exploitable Special defense.


Mega Metagross has rock polish but it isnt as common as AoA. Forgoing coverage on Lando means that hes walled by at least one common pivot; no knock off means he's shut down by chansey. No focus blast opens him up to other lando, Sp Def Ferro. No Sludge Wave means Tangrowth and Bulu, etc.


Landorus-Incarnate is a new toy because he was banned because of dynamax. With dmax gone I think the floodgates have opened


Maybe in a meta 8-9 months from now where Mega Blastoise, Darmanitan and Mega Metagross are gone, Landorus will prove to be OP, but currently he seems to be consistent with the overall power level of the meta.

Except tiering philosophy states the onus is to prove it is not broken before the unbanning. Tiering philosophy also states broken checking broken is not an argument. Therefore, the priority is to girst get rid of all the broken elements before we discuss unbannings.

 

[VCrakeV]

Are Blace and Chandelure common in the current metagame? While teambuilding, I sacrificed my MU with these mons to improve my MU against other mons. I did this because a) you can't have a good MU against everything, and b) according to usage stats, these two aren't that common. Yet, I'm running into one or the other every second game. Have they suddenly become more popular, or am I just getting bad luck with matchmaking?

 

[Sputnik]

Are Blace and Chandelure common in the current metagame? While teambuilding, I sacrificed my MU with these mons to improve my MU against other mons. I did this because a) you can't have a good MU against everything, and b) according to usage stats, these two aren't that common. Yet, I'm running into one or the other every second game. Have they suddenly become more popular, or am I just getting bad luck with matchmaking?

Chandelure really isn't used that much cuz it's pretty much an inferior Blace in every single way.

Blace is common enough to be somewhat considered when building and is actually a threat right now imo. It has a couple of hard walls in Tyranitar, Hydreigon, that sort of thing, and it sits at a weird speed tier that makes non-Scarf sets pretty easy to revenge kill, but it's a really powerful breaker and scarf sets act as exceptionally dangerous late game cleaners. Not a threat to be taken lightly at all.

 

[LORD SAGIS]

My boi Melmetal just got disrespected and called "objectively worse than Meta in most situations." While Mega Metagross has can actually switch into special attackers, Melmetal is way harder to switch into. You may notice in my post here that Melmetal has the smallest pool of checks. This is because Melmetal has a powerful 60 base power move that hits twice its actually 120 base power that hits through sashes/sturdy. The move is also boosted by 20% because of Iron Fist. This backed up by amazing 143 Atk and Choice Band, makes this thing easily one of the most powerful wallbreakers in the tier.

Melmetal @ Choice Band
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 40 HP / 252 Atk / 216 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Double Iron Bash
- Superpower
- Thunder Punch
- Darkest Lariat

Probably not optimised to the best standards but it gets the point across. Now I gonna give you some calcs to show how hard this beast hits.

-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-Therian: 216-254 (56.5 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 258-306 (63.8 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Buzzwole: 236-282 (56.4 - 67.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

I should note that these mons can't run this much in Defense so in practice its actually much more.

As you can tell, you cannot wall this machine with just bulky pokemon. You need bulky resists to be able to switch into it. I also want to note that this thing's physcial bulk is amazing to the point where not even Landorus-T can revenge kill it at full. So yeah Melmetal definitely isn't a worse Mega Metagross. You can also put this on trick room if you want to use that low speed to its advantage.

 

[astralydia]

My boi Melmetal just got disrespected and called "objectively worse than Meta in most situations." While Mega Metagross has can actually switch into special attackers, Melmetal is way harder to switch into. You may notice in my post here that Melmetal has the smallest pool of checks. This is because Melmetal has a powerful 60 base power move that hits twice its actually 120 base power that hits through sashes/sturdy. The move is also boosted by 20% because of Iron Fist. This backed up by amazing 143 Atk and Choice Band, makes this thing easily one of the most powerful wallbreakers in the tier.

Melmetal @ Choice Band
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 40 HP / 252 Atk / 216 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Double Iron Bash
- Superpower
- Thunder Punch
- Darkest Lariat

Probably not optimised to the best standards but it gets the point across. Now I gonna give you some calcs to show how hard this beast hits.

-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-Therian: 216-254 (56.5 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 258-306 (63.8 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Buzzwole: 236-282 (56.4 - 67.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

I should note that these mons can't run this much in Defense so in practice its actually much more.

As you can tell, you cannot wall this machine with just bulky pokemon. You need bulky resists to be able to switch into it. I also want to note that this thing's physcial bulk is amazing to the point where not even Landorus-T can revenge kill it at full. So yeah Melmetal definitely isn't a worse Mega Metagross. You can also put this on trick room if you want to use that low speed to its advantage.

Melmetal @ Choice Band
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 136 HP / 252 Atk / 104 SpD / 16 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Double Iron Bash
- Thunder Punch
- Superpower
- Earthquake

For what it's worth I created another spread for this mon that takes two Specs Lele Psychics. It's actually quite bulky for a wallbreaker that has no strong switchin - Toxapex can be used as a pivot but that takes upwards of 80% from Earthquake when physically defensive. The issue with it right now is that it tends to share the same Steel checks that a lot of teams employ, mainly for Mega Metagross, and that mons like Slowbro can tend to give it trouble as people search for reliable counterplay to it. As the metagame develops I think steel stacking is likely going to be an interesting development (mainly Melm + Genesect / Megagross), but for now this mon's incredibly underrated for just how powerful its attacks really are.

 

[The Amazonian Rainforest]

So.......

My boi Melmetal just got disrespected and called "objectively worse than Meta in most situations." While Mega Metagross has can actually switch into special attackers, Melmetal is way harder to switch into. You may notice in my post here that Melmetal has the smallest pool of checks. This is because Melmetal has a powerful 60 base power move that hits twice its actually 120 base power that hits through sashes/sturdy. The move is also boosted by 20% because of Iron Fist. This backed up by amazing 143 Atk and Choice Band, makes this thing easily one of the most powerful wallbreakers in the tier.

Melmetal @ Choice Band
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 40 HP / 252 Atk / 216 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Double Iron Bash
- Superpower
- Thunder Punch
- Darkest Lariat

Probably not optimised to the best standards but it gets the point across. Now I gonna give you some calcs to show how hard this beast hits.

-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-Therian: 216-254 (56.5 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 258-306 (63.8 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Buzzwole: 236-282 (56.4 - 67.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

I should note that these mons can't run this much in Defense so in practice its actually much more.

As you can tell, you cannot wall this machine with just bulky pokemon. You need bulky resists to be able to switch into it. I also want to note that this thing's physcial bulk is amazing to the point where not even Landorus-T can revenge kill it at full. So yeah Melmetal definitely isn't a worse Mega Metagross. You can also put this on trick room if you want to use that low speed to its advantage.

As someone who has also dated Melmetal in the past, he's worse than Metagross as a physical steel wallbreaker. Melmetal probably has less checks but is kinda a liability without significant team support or trick room due to that speed.
Don't get me wrong I think Melmetal is viable and is good if you already have a mega, its like a Tapu Koko/Thunduris comparison.

And while his physical bulk is outstanding he has no recovery and Mega Metagross's 80/150 physical bulk is absurd enough to make him reasonably bulky even when uninvested. Also without an AV, hes really weak to special attacks.

Metagross KOs Landorus too but without any worry of taking damage, and does heavy damage to Tangrowth, and no one really uses Buzzwole. Gigantamax was also a big part of his appeal so once hes choice locked its easy to pivot into him (aegislash) So yeah tl;Dr while Melmetal is definitely better in some areas Metagross is more versatile and requires less support and is faster and has better defensive typing and better utility (rocks). Melmetal will come in, get outsped and 2hko'd, kill someone, outsped again and killed.

 

[Cuddly]

Now that a day or so has passed I wanted to start a discussion on Landorus-L. Power stated that the reason he wasn't unbanned last time was because of Max Ooze, which would make sense, because Lando would be an OP dyna abuser, but dynamax is gone now, and looking at Landorus's movepool, stats and typing, I no longer believe that he currently is too volatile for the tier.

The amount of ice coverage is insane in this meta and limits Landorus's ability to switch into things. He's usually KO'd by the most common Hidden Power. He's outsped and OHKO'd by Mega Metagross and Scarf Darm. He fails to KO Mega Blastoise, who then can use Shell Smash. His matchup in rain is pretty bad, too.
Scarf Genesect and Heatran both outspeed and OHKO, too, leading me to my next point: his speed.

Base 101 speed is bad for an AoA wallbreaker who is always relegated to a Life Orb. He's outsped by most relevant scarfers (the aformentioned Darm, Tran, and Genesect, as well as Lele, Dracovish, Landorus-T, and Kartana) and is hit pretty hard by all of them if not outright KO'd. In addition, he is outsped by Mega Metagross, +2 Mega Blastoise, Tapu Koko, +1 Kommo-o, Dragapult, the list goes on and on. Base 101 speed is really shaky for a Pokemon that can only really attack and hope he doesn't get attacked in return.

Next is his movepool. Honestly, its kinds barren. Of course he gets extra options such as Psychic, Knock Off, Grass Knot, Hammer Arm, but he often has 4mss that craps on his only niche: to wallbreak.


Despite this, Lando-L is really strong and I think he would make a great addition to the meta. He is especially weak to the top meta threats but he threatens a lot of the fat cancer shit rn (Pex, Growth, Bulu, Zygarde, Ferro, Aegislash) and especially the last two.

So yeah I think hes alright

Nah. Lando-I doesn’t have any counters still, and he still has answers for many of his checks.
Sheer Force is an insane ability, especially with Life Orb, which to this day I do not know why GameFreak make Sheer Force immune to LO recoil.
It effectively gives Landorus-I more than 255 in SpA and even more on the Physical side (although lacks coverage).
Normally, having such high offenses isn’t ban worthy on its own, but Landorus has great coverage and still is faster than the 100 base speed tier, and can boost even further beyond with Rock Polish for more offensive teams. Then can also Calm Mind a few times against more defensive teams.
And plus, what from Galar checks Lando-I? I’m pretty sure there is nothing new from England that can switch more easily than anything before. All that comes to mind is Specially Orientated Corviknight, but doesn’t like Focus Blast, Knock Off, or Rock Slide all that much.
And don’t forget that Lando-I can technically be physical, which gives it that Mega Lucario problem where mistaking what set its using will give it a free kill, letting it tear through teams.

 

[Cuddly]

*Teleports behind you and blocks your path*

(Sorry, couldn’t find anything smaller)
Obstagoon @ Life Orb/Black Glasses
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly/Adamant Nature
- Knock Off
- Body Slam
- Parting Shot
- Honestly a ton of moves can fit here
Obstagoon is a pretty underrated Pokemon in National Dex OU.
It’s no offensive Power House or Unkillable Wall. Far from both. And one may see Obstagoon and think “Why would I use this thing?” and “Why not just use Bisharp or some other Defiant user?”
Answer: Parting Shot.
Obstagoon can be great support for offensive teams that can still hit decently hard.
Gene Simmons’s Fursona may not have Bisharp’s impressive Atk or that impressive Steel typing, but is higher or equal in every other stat, especially in HP and Speed.
It also lacks a weakness to Ground and Fire, allowing Obstagoon to have better match-ups against Landorus-T, Excadrill, and plenty of Defoggers.
But it’s best strength is being an anti-defogger with Parting Shot.
Parting Shot is an amazing move for Obstagoon. A defogger can be blowing away your hazards and screens, then Obstagoon can come in to get a +2 for free, knock off most switch-ins, and then Parting Shot a Pokemon lacking its Item and is -1 in both offensive stats (as long as it doesn’t have hyper cut, defiant, competitive, Mirror Armor, Contrary, or clear body). This will allow bulk set-up mons set up their boosts with ease.

 

[Guard]

Quick note:

I believe Scarf Greninja is extremely clutch and easily the most splashable Scarfer currently, being able to proof several archetypes to numerous otherwise hard-to-handle threats. These include, but are not limited to: (Scarf) Genesect, Mega Blastoise, Zygarde, Ash-Greninja, (Scarf) Kartana, Mega Swampert, unboosted Dragapult, Scarf G-Darm (after rocks) and Volcarona. The fact that Greninja can revenge kill/force out a supermajority of threats that normally tend to stress Balance/BO gives these teams much more freedom in how they can allocate their EVs to their defensive backbone, overall making them a lot more consistent.

Set

Greninja (M) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Protean
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- U-turn/Rock Slide
- Grass Knot

 

[Solaros & Lunaris]

Quick note:

I believe Scarf Greninja is extremely clutch and easily the most splashable Scarfer currently, being able to proof several archetypes to numerous otherwise hard-to-handle threats. These include, but are not limited to: (Scarf) Genesect, Mega Blastoise, Zygarde, Ash-Greninja, (Scarf) Kartana, Mega Swampert, unboosted Dragapult, Scarf G-Darm (after rocks) and Volcarona. The fact that Greninja can revenge kill/force out a supermajority of threats that normally tend to stress Balance/BO gives these teams much more freedom in how they can allocate their EVs to their defensive backbone, overall making them a lot more consistent.

Set

Greninja (M) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Protean
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- U-turn/Rock Slide
- Grass Knot

I too agree with Scarf Greninja being one of, if not the, best Scarfers for Balance rn, as it revenges a plethora of threats that otherwise run over teams. I have one issue, though. There is no reason to run HP Fire on this set. Kartana falters to Ice Beam, and you would rather U-turn off Ferro and Scizor. I would go with U-turn (consistent pivoting is what keeps such a weak Pokemon on people’s threatlist), Rock Slide (catches Volc and G-Darm), Grass Knot (MToise and MPert) and Ice Beam (Lando, Glisc, Chomp, Draga, Kart). Other than that, great set!

 

[Guard]

I too agree with Scarf Greninja being one of, if not the, best Scarfers for Balance rn, as it revenges a plethora of threats that otherwise run over teams. I have one issue, though. There is no reason to run HP Fire on this set. Kartana falters to Ice Beam, and you would rather U-turn off Ferro and Scizor. I would go with U-turn (consistent pivoting is what keeps such a weak Pokemon on people’s threatlist), Rock Slide (catches Volc and G-Darm), Grass Knot (MToise and MPert) and Ice Beam (Lando, Glisc, Chomp, Draga, Kart). Other than that, great set!

HP Fire is mainly to revenge kill an unsuspecting Scarf Genesect, which alleviates the pressure of Genesect's constant pivoting. It's also quite handy to pick off weakened Magearna and MMetagross, which tends to stay in against Scarf variants.

 

[LORD SAGIS]

After a few days of playing this Dynamaxless metagame, I firmly believe that Mega Blastoise is broken and should be quick banned from Natdex OU. Mega Blastoise is the single most centralizing force in the metagame right now because of its nightmare fuel Shell Smash set that can turn the tide of game in just 1 turn. My biggest problem with its place in the metagame is that it does this with just one set. You know whats coming but it still wrecks teams with very little effort. Now I'm going to go into detail on why I think Mega Blastoise broken.

Mega Blastoise is really hard to revenge kill

Because of Shell Smash raising speed by +2, Mega Blastoise hard to take down because of its bulk and great speed when Setup (Even worse if its running Timid -> Modest). The only scarfers that can outrun it if Timid are Ditto, Greninja, and Dragapult. I should also note that its likely to have killed at least something before hand. Not only that, Mega Blastoise resists Aqua Jet, Bullet Punch, Ice Shard, and Water Shuriken. This means that Mega Blastoise resist half the the Priority going around.

Mega Blastoise is hard to kill pre-setup

79/120/115 bulk is incredible. It lets Mega Blastoise setup on any non-STAB super effective move. Backed up by Screens is even better.

252 Atk Choice Band Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Blastoise-Mega through Reflect: 241-285 (80.6 - 95.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Yeah your not killing this thing in one hit under screens. It gets worse when you consider how it snowball teams with ease. This one turn can be gaming changing.

Mega Blastoise hits like a truck when setup

The most popular nature seems to be Timid so I'm going to use that for Calcs. If its running Modest it makes checking it defensively even harder.

+2 252 SpA Mega Launcher Blastoise-Mega Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 151-178 (49.6 - 58.5%) -- 69.1% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+2 252 SpA Blastoise-Mega Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Tapu Bulu: 302-356 (88 - 103.7%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery and Grassy Terrain recovery
+2 252 SpA Blastoise-Mega Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Koko: 255-300 (90.7 - 106.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Mega Launcher Blastoise-Mega Aura Sphere vs. 248 HP / 160 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 296-350 (42.1 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (Spread I've been running).

As you can see, checking Mega Blastoise defensively is no easy feat.

Overall I think Mega Blastoise is too much for the metagame to handle and It would be better off without it in my opinion.