SPOILERS! Mysteries and Conspiracies of Pokemon

[Detective Barricade]

I don't think Looker's a faller, in my opinion. I think the coincidental circumstance is just that.

We know that there's two secret bases near the Battle Resort where the International Police staked out a criminal. The theory that Looker was the officer, and was knocked out by the criminal, and was brought to the Resort on the tide.

Then there's the theory that he was the officer on the SS Anne back in the Kanto games, but disguised (which is one of his signature traits). And that he tried to stop Team Rocket but got knocked overboard and floated to the Battle Resort.

Or here's a third theory. After Guzzlord ate the previous faller 10 years ago (yeah, they heavily imply that the last faller was eaten. Or at least killed by Guzzlord.), it could've blasted Looker and Nanu with such force that Looker was rendered unconscious and eventually ended up on the Battle Resort, with mild amnesia that would've gone away by the time his timeline's Sinnoh events rolled around.



I never said the Advanced timeline didn't exist still. Because despite needing an app to do so, it can still connect to the Ultimate timeline. Also, my theory didn't come from Anabel's dialogue at all, just thought of it on my own. If they can invade the Ultimate timeline, as shown in Sun and Moon, and they can travel to the Advanced timeline, as shown by Anabel, then there should be no reason why they can't invade the GB timeline, or the anime or the manga.

And I mentioned that there was no time travel in the Advanced timeline and Pal Park myself. But... I forgot the Celebi event. Which does reinforce my point, that outside of Celebi, time travel is non-existent in the Pokémon core timelines post-Time Capsule.

The GB timeline is the only one that's completely cut off from the other game timelines. (I'm obviously not counting spin-offs, since those are typically cut-off as well, unless you can send Pokémon to/from those games.) And a reasonable reason for why it's cut off from its sister timelines is that it was destroyed.

Then again, one could argue that due to the Red/Green/Blue/Yellow re-releases, that that timeline is still intact, just extremely... basic, compared to its sister timelines.

As for your new theory, yes. Lillie, Lusamine, Guzma and Sun/Moon are all fallers. So if we do actually go back to a "ten years later" Kanto as so many are suspecting, with Lillie as your rival, that would explain how and why the Ultra Beasts (who are now obviously known as Pokémon) would show up in the post-game for collection.

But do we even know for certain that Anabel is from the Advanced timeline? Yes, they use the Emerald Frontier Brain theme for facing her in the Battle Tree, but we also know that OR/AS' Battle Resort had plans to be expanded into the Battle Frontier, starting with the Battle Tower. (ignoring how much of a trolling tease this was as a feature we'd never actually get to experience in the game) She could have come from another "Ultimate Weapon universe" where the Frontier was actually completed and an Ultra Wormhole opened up near it and she fell in. (I wouldn't be surprised if they somehow tied Ultra Wormholes occasionally opening to after effects of the firing of the Ultimate Weapon in a later game)

Though... I don't remember reading anything about secret bases the International Police had set up near the Battle Resort...

 

[stage7_4]

Ugh, timelines. Do we really have to do this every other week?

Honestly there's a multitude of competing theories from where the Sun/Moon Anabel fell from and which reality was invaded by Ultra Beasts. The "non-mega" timeline, a later game, an earlier game, a parallel game pack (aka "why do I have four Mewtwo's?" Or "Did N have a Zekrom or a Reshiram?"), specifically just from Emerald, just to name a few. Then if start tossing in other dimensions like the Dream Word, or the Entralink, or countless others.

Even within just this game itself there's a whole other parallel universe that you can actually visit (the one with the inverted day/night cycle and the extra Cosmog) so really Game Freak has basically given themselves a multiverse of options to pick and choose. This isn't a timeline but actually, from a nonlinear, non-subjective viewpoint, it's more like a big ball of wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey stuff.

So I don't think we need to set up a Zelda-style "definitive timeline." Craft your own opinion and by all means feel free to post it, but let's kill the back and forth debate, shall we? It's just unproductive and there really isn't much ground to debate on, just the aforementioned timey-wimey stuff.

For a topic change, let's talk about Mohn.

Thanks for agreeing with me buddy.

He's got quite the interesting backstory. We know that he used to be a researcher on alternate dimensions and ultra beasts, and that he's Lillie and Gladion's dad (and Lusamine's husband). Then something happened and his family can't find him, but we see him every time we go to Poke-pelago.

So, what did happen? Why did he ditch his family but seems really content taking care of our pokemon? Is he a runaway father, or does the "Mohn" we talk to even exist? And why do I keep getting an Undertale vibe from this guy?

you know exactly who I am thinking of

To make things weirder, the game has a strange opinion of what exactly poke-pelago is. It's kind-of on the map, and other NPC's do recognize it's existence (and wild pokemon will appear there). But then there's this one NPC girl in a poke-center that suggests most really don't know what happens to pokemon deposited into the PC.

Also none of these people to my knowledge ever mention Mohn.

So is this a simple case of neglectful parenting, or something mysterious?

 

[Detective Barricade]

Well, Aether Foundation was set up to take care of Pokemon, at least until Lusamine started going cuckoo for Ultra Beasts and secretly hiring out Team Skull to help her in her quest. (probably got stung by a Nihilego that might've popped out around the time of Mohn's disappearance/the start of creating what would become Type: Null) So it's no surprise Mohn would be happy to take care of the Pokemon in your PC boxes. He doesn't remember his past, other than his name. But I can't help but wonder if some weasel within Aether made sure that Professor Mohn would... disappear without a trace, much less traced back to them. (and I HIGHLY doubt that Lusamine wanted him gone) Faba seems the sort who might, and his signature Pokemon is a Hypno, which is known for its formidable hypnosis abilities. and stealing little girls and children away never to be seen again I have no idea what his motive could be, if indeed he was responsible, but surely he at least knows what happened.

 

[Carrier]

Well, Aether Foundation was set up to take care of Pokemon, at least until Lusamine started going cuckoo for Ultra Beasts and secretly hiring out Team Skull to help her in her quest. (probably got stung by a Nihilego that might've popped out around the time of Mohn's disappearance/the start of creating what would become Type: Null) So it's no surprise Mohn would be happy to take care of the Pokemon in your PC boxes. He doesn't remember his past, other than his name. But I can't help but wonder if some weasel within Aether made sure that Professor Mohn would... disappear without a trace, much less traced back to them. (and I HIGHLY doubt that Lusamine wanted him gone) Faba seems the sort who might, and his signature Pokemon is a Hypno, which is known for its formidable hypnosis abilities. and stealing little girls and children away never to be seen again I have no idea what his motive could be, if indeed he was responsible, but surely he at least knows what happened.

Furthering this, Faba's motive isn't that unfathomable. He's pretty clear in the post game that he wants to be head of the Aether Foundation (saying an adult would be much better than a child, and obviously meaning himself considering his desire for upward mobility and such displayed at various points, especially on his blog).

So, knock they guy in charge out of the picture and you have one less guy between you and being the guy in charge. Given his relative importance during Lusamine running the Foundation (and her being scary as heck / having much more understanding of Ultra Wormholes / UBs than Mohn did, at least to the point of being able to create beastballs), I think even Faba would think again about using the wormhole to take out Lusamine.

 

[lucariomaster2]

In order to combat the Ultra Beasts, the Aether Foundation created a Pokemon that was intended to be a Beast Killer. They injected it with DNA from all 18 Pokemon types, with the intent that this Pokemon would be able to change its type at will using special memories. Three of this Pokemon in total were created. They gave them what I assume is an artificial organ that converts computer data from Memory into biological information (DNA maybe?) called the RKS System so that it could actually do so. However, they rejected this system and went berserk. Thus, they were given heavy wooden restraint masks to seal their power away, and put into cryogenic suspension. This Pokemon was given the name "Type: Null". But during the events of Sun and Moon, Gladion was able to free one of the specimens from suspension and steal it from the Foundation. Later, he gives the Player one of the other two, while the third presumably stayed frozen.

Now, here's where things get tricky. When we're told that T:N rejected the RKS system, we're not told exactly what that means. What I took it to mean is that when the scientists attempted to splice the artificial organ in, Null's already chimeric body rejected it (which is not uncommon IRL when performing invasive surgery), so that when the scientists tried to use it, not only did it not work, but it caused Null intense pain that caused it to go out of control. The problem, though, is that that theory cannot possibly be true, for one simple reason: Silvally exists, and on it the RKS system works perfectly.

The only fragment of explanation we're given for this is its Pokedex entries, which refer to it being "awakened" on several occasions. We know that its trust in its partner awakens it, and when it is awakened, the RKS System activates. This presents a contradiction, though: How can Silvally use the RKS system at all if it didn't work when it was created? The only possible explanation I can think of is that when the lore talks about Type: Null (then called Type: Full) rejecting the RKS system, it means that it wasn't their bodies rejecting it, but instead they actively resisted its effects and refused to use it, but when Null evolves into Silvally it has become loyal enough to its Trainer to brave whatever negative effects the RKS system has in order to use it.

Honestly, this is a pretty weak explanation; I really don't like having to resort to The Power of Friendship(tm) to explain how something works. So what are other people's thoughts on how Silvally can use the RKS System even though it originally "rejected" it?

 

[Detective Barricade]

In order to combat the Ultra Beasts, the Aether Foundation created a Pokemon that was intended to be a Beast Killer. They injected it with DNA from all 18 Pokemon types, with the intent that this Pokemon would be able to change its type at will using special memories. Three of this Pokemon in total were created. They gave them what I assume is an artificial organ that converts computer data from Memory into biological information (DNA maybe?) called the RKS System so that it could actually do so. However, they rejected this system and went berserk. Thus, they were given heavy wooden restraint masks to seal their power away, and put into cryogenic suspension. This Pokemon was given the name "Type: Null". But during the events of Sun and Moon, Gladion was able to free one of the specimens from suspension and steal it from the Foundation. Later, he gives the Player one of the other two, while the third presumably stayed frozen.

Now, here's where things get tricky. When we're told that T:N rejected the RKS system, we're not told exactly what that means. What I took it to mean is that when the scientists attempted to splice the artificial organ in, Null's already chimeric body rejected it (which is not uncommon IRL when performing invasive surgery), so that when the scientists tried to use it, not only did it not work, but it caused Null intense pain that caused it to go out of control. The problem, though, is that that theory cannot possibly be true, for one simple reason: Silvally exists, and on it the RKS system works perfectly.

The only fragment of explanation we're given for this is its Pokedex entries, which refer to it being "awakened" on several occasions. We know that its trust in its partner awakens it, and when it is awakened, the RKS System activates. This presents a contradiction, though: How can Silvally use the RKS system at all if it didn't work when it was created? The only possible explanation I can think of is that when the lore talks about Type: Null (then called Type: Full) rejecting the RKS system, it means that it wasn't their bodies rejecting it, but instead they actively resisted its effects and refused to use it, but when Null evolves into Silvally it has become loyal enough to its Trainer to brave whatever negative effects the RKS system has in order to use it.

Honestly, this is a pretty weak explanation; I really don't like having to resort to The Power of Friendship(tm) to explain how something works. So what are other people's thoughts on how Silvally can use the RKS System even though it originally "rejected" it?

It's not evolution, though. Null trusts its trainer to accept the wild side of its full strength and smashes the restraining mask. It's supposed to be a long, rough task to train with it and make it "strong", as evidenced by Gladion having been attacked by Null on several occasions even before leaving Aether Foundation. (Wicke recalls how he'd try to repair the tears in his clothes caused by Null.

But... was Null truly a failure? Or was that merely what Lusamine wanted everyone to think when she decided she'd much rather collect Nihilego and forcibly open an Ultra Wormhole? Seems awful strange that Null was to be frozen indefinitely, without anyone trying to figure out why it "failed" or if there's a way to get it to work...

 

[stage7_4]

Don't be so hard on the power of friendship, cliche or not it isn't to be denied.

To be more technical here, performance anxiety and stress can severely impact the body, so it's possible that being a lab grown monster whose purpose was only to be a weapon negatively impacted the Type: Full's psyche. After all the "Silvally" moniker is the name Gladion gave it, before they didn't have true names. So an abused creature fails to live up to expectations due to stress, but once given basic human decency it becomes fully functional with the RKS system.

One thing I want to point out, the RKS system was implied to work fine on it's own, it's just when combined with their proto-chimera pokemon that it failed to sync up. My theory is they based it of Genesect's Technodrive cannon, but took the extra step of getting it to change the whole pokemon and not just the cannon's attack-type.

Given the people in charge of the project, Lusamine and Faba, is really any wonder it didn't work? I can easily seeing them both scrapping the project because a confused and abused chimera isn't given proper parenting to really achieve it's potential. Type: Null is essentially a test-tube baby after all. Faba never seemed the parental type, and Lusamine was in full on crazy mode by then. So I can see them skipping over the basics (feed 3 times a day, walkies twice a day, and occasionally tummy rubs. Don't feed after midnight!) in order to make their beast killer, then being totally clueless as to why it doesn't work. As they say in coding: put garbage in, get garbage out.

Type: Null to Silvally makes more sense from a narrative perspective, as it's a reinforcement of the game's themes of parental relationships, between mother and child or owner and pet or trainer and pokemon. You can see that game hammering it in everywhere, from the way your starter chooses you right up to nearly the ending when Lillie let's Nebby go with you. Silvally is just part of Gladion's contribution to it.

That's why it "evolves" via friendship.

I guess considering the lore behind it, Type: Null might be our first official devolution. It started out as Type: Full/Silvally, but was restrained down into Type: Null. Breaking the mask and evolving is just returning it to it's true form. Although maybe Cosmog is the real "first" devolution.

 

[Siggu]

I now think that, when it was stated that Type: Full rejected the RKS System, "rejected" did not have the biological meaning (as in their bodies rejecting new tissue), but rather that they somehow wilfully rejected the system and went berserk.

After all, the archives didn't say that the RKS System "did not work", but rather that the specimens rejected it. For what we know, the RKS System was working perfectly, but the three Type: Full refused to cooperate.

Once Gladion's Type:Null trusted him enough and got strong enough, it could break the helmet and use the RKS System again.

 

[Carrier]

I was under the thought that rejection could have gone two ways; one, where the system itself was a failure, or two, where the Type:Null (Silvally?) simply was too aggressive or unruly to utilize the system; it requires human assistance to input the memories, judging from how to change Silvally's type ingame.

The second makes much more sense all around, I'd say. It explains why Lusamine would regard it as a failure, as she can't control it. It explains why the masks were necessary, as limiting an unruly experiment's power seems like common sense, especially if it is ever to be reawakened without catastrophic results; if the system was totally a dud, the restraint would be a bit overkill, wouldn't it?

Detective Barricade has a good point, though; the cryogenics may have been part of Lusamine's apparent change of plans regarding Ultra Beasts. Originally, she may have had a plan to defend against them, but once she went insane (and began to USE them, or at least see them as beautiful and whatnot and desire them) she immediately shelved the project when any problems occured, having a perfect excuse to remove something now capable of defeating her.

While the helmet evolution / devolution is a bit confusing to me, the friendship part makes sense if the overall temperament of Type:Null is to be accounted for; being fairly ferocious and unruly by nature, yet apparently needing human assistance to utilize the RKS System, gaining a boost from trust / friendship (IE Evolution) makes some sense. At the very least, it could be argued that once it reaches the point of being able to trust someone, it breaks the mask so as to finally utilize the system that requires a human companion in order to function; before that point, there was little benefit to destroying the mask, as Null/Silvally (Nullvally) needed that human component to use the system that was disabled, anyway.

 

[Siggu]

There's something I've been thinking about Team Skull. Two things, actually, but the second one is more meta than anything.

Team Skull's members

It is implied (or outright confirmed, I don't remember right now) most, if not all the members of Team Skull are people who failed to complete the Island Challenge, and if we consider how Po Town looked like and Guzma's apparent age, Team Skull seems to have been formed some years before the events of Sun and Moon.

Now... some years before the events of Sun and Moon, Hapu's grandfather died, and Hapu herself says that, since his death, there was no Kahuna in Poni.

What if Team Skull's members failed the Island Challenge not because they are not good enough, but because they were in an unwinnable point because there was no fourth Kahuna?

Team Skull's second battle at Poni Island

Early into the game's stint at Poni Island, Lillie encounters six Team Skull grunts. The player defeats the only woman among them, who had only one Pokemon. Then, a male grunt challenges the player, and he has five Pokemon, something none outside of Lusamine, Anabel, Nanu and the Alola League (challengers included) have.

When you defeat the male grunt, all five remaining grunts look defeated.

Doesn't this look oddly similar to a Horde Trainer battle (each Pokemon belonging to each Grunt)? Could they have been in the game in an early phase but then dropped out?

 

[Pikachu315111]

There's something I've been thinking about Team Skull. Two things, actually, but the second one is more meta than anything.
Team Skull's members

It is implied (or outright confirmed, I don't remember right now) most, if not all the members of Team Skull are people who failed to complete the Island Challenge, and if we consider how Po Town looked like and Guzma's apparent age, Team Skull seems to have been formed some years before the events of Sun and Moon.

Now... some years before the events of Sun and Moon, Hapu's grandfather died, and Hapu herself says that, since his death, there was no Kahuna in Poni.

What if Team Skull's members failed the Island Challenge not because they are not good enough, but because they were in an unwinnable point because there was no fourth Kahuna?

Team Skull's second battle at Poni Island

Early into the game's stint at Poni Island, Lillie encounters six Team Skull grunts. The player defeats the only woman among them, who had only one Pokemon. Then, a male grunt challenges the player, and he has five Pokemon, something none outside of Lusamine, Anabel, Nanu and the Alola League (challengers included) have.

When you defeat the male grunt, all five remaining grunts look defeated.

Doesn't this look oddly similar to a Horde Trainer battle (each Pokemon belonging to each Grunt)? Could they have been in the game in an early phase but then dropped out?

Intriguing theory, though I think there's maybe a hole in one of them:

On The Trial To Fail?
It would be pretty Tauros Mulch for the other Kahuna to leave the Island Challenge in an unwinnable state yet still send kids out to "complete" it. Since Hapu was able to override the player needing to do the 7th Trial (yes, we did end up doing the Ancient Dragon Trial, but that was more on accident, once we defeated Hapu or Island Challenge was officially over without needing the 7th Trial) there is probably procedures that can be followed if there's no Kahuna present. Since Captains are picked by the Kahuna, I'd imagine duty of finishing a trainer's Island Challenge would be left up to Mina as she is Poni Island's sole Captain.
"But they said Mina went missing for a while". Yes, they did, but I think that was more a recent event (correct me if I'm wrong). If both Kahuna and Captain were gone I'd think a Trial goer would probably go back to a previous Kahuna and tell them about it because, well, how are they suppose to complete the challenge now? Since it doesn't seem any previous Kahuna knew (well, Nanu might have known, of course he also probably knew it would work itself out) I think Mina going missing was a recent thing. However I think Mina going missing has to do with the Trials: up till now no Trial Goer got up to Mina. Isn't a bit odd that Mina not only doesn't have a Trial but didn't even think of creating one until meeting with the player? Surely had there been other Trial Goers who got up to Mina she would at least had made a Trial of some sort, but she doesn't. That kind of tells me that no recent Trial Goer had gotten to Mina until now, something even hinted by Nanu when he takes you to the Pokemon League.
So I don't think they failed because there was no Poni Kahuna, I think they failed before then. I wouldn't be surprised if they maybe failed because they couldn't defeat Nanu; it would explain why Team Skull's base of operation is on Ula'ula Island and they sorta respect (or at least don't mess with) Nanu. Would also explain Nanu's dour personalty: he defeated so many Trial Goers who end up joining Team Skull afterwards he became pessimistic about the whole Island Challenge.

Horde In Number Only:
Hmm, didn't think about that. At most I thought maybe the other grunts gave him their Pokemon hoping battling a batch of Pokemon in a row might tire the player's team. However it makes much more sense for it to have originally been a Horde Trainer Battle. Of course that makes me wonder if that meant Horde Battles were meant to be kept and, if so, how long until it was decided not to have them. Would have to be pretty late if they couldn't rewrite that scene so just gave one grunt five Pokemon instead of coming up with another scenario.
Though that just makes me wonder how SOS Battles would have worked with Horde Battles *shudders*.

 

[stage7_4]

Is it possible that Poni Island was just cut out of the island challenge altogether? The only reason the player does it is to awaken Nebby and save Lusamine, so it was more for plot reasons than the island challenge itself. And both the battle with Hapu and the dragon trial were unconventional to begin with, and Poni Island is largely uninhabited (the only town is a port with seasonal residents).

I think it's likely that the typical trial goer is expected to skip it.

Speaking of which, I kept getting the feeling that the island challenge was more "do as many as you can" rather than "do them all." Seemed like most trainers just did as many as they could then moved on to a real job. The prize for finishing all (or most) of them appears to be a spot as a kahuna or trial captain, and now a chance to face the pokemon league.

Due to lacking Z-crystals, it's likely Team Skull largely failed to complete any trials, or at least no grand trials. For higher-ups like Guzma or Plumeria, it's likely they came close but didn't finish enough to get a trial captain offer. Especially Guzma, as his room practically screams "always second best." Unable to succeed at raising pokemon, they fell into a "disenfanchised youth with no clear future" trap and began taking their frustrations out on society.

Does make you wonder about the game world though, as this one has the semi-realistic notion that you have to be really good at pokemon (like, gym leader, trial captain, elite four tier skill) in order to make it a career. The Eevee Sidequest really spelled out how eventually the common man has to find a new dream to pay the bills. Those that still want to be pokemon trainers or can't find a new dream probably end up like Team Skull, too weak to be a pokemon trainer but don't know how to do anything else.

Sure, we the player make it all look easy. But let's remember that the typical in-game trainer struggles with both type diversity and raising more than four pokemon.

 

[Carrier]

I was also under the assumption that nobody had gotten to Poni Island trial-wise in quite some time; I thought that Hapu went to the Tapu just because, for the first time in a long while (maybe even going back to her grandfather's death) there was actually a need for a new Kahuna for the Trial due to you beating everyone else.

And yeah, it seems like people just do the trial until they feel like quitting; otherwise there would be a LOT more competition for the E4 title, for sure. It also wouldn't make sense for why people put much so much stock into the Kahunas if *everyone* beats the heck out of them for the Trials, not to mention that Poni Island's Kahuna dying would have needed fixing immediately.

Kind of makes you feel like that sewer plant owner was being super tough on his son, though.

 

[Darth Manaphy]

Well we DO have an approximate time since the last trial winner: Kahili won her island trial. She looks no older than 30, so that means that Poni Island's trials and kahuna existed in some form or another no more than 20 years ago.

 

[Carrier]

Well we DO have an approximate time since the last trial winner: Kahili won her island trial. She looks no older than 30, so that means that Poni Island's trials and kahuna existed in some form or another no more than 20 years ago.

Actually, is there a time limit on the trials itself? For all we know, it might be acceptable for kids to go on an adventure for years Ash Ketchum style, except with actual aging, and then join the adult workforce if they don't become a Kahuna (because it seems all the Captains are predominately teenagers, minus Kahili)

Additionally, apparently adults can retake the island trial, as I remember some adult NPC saying they might retake the trial to learn something new, so we don't really have a timetable on when Poni Island went Kahuna-less, other than him being alive at a point where Hapu was old enough to remember him and be taught by him.

 

[Codraroll]

I've always liked the idea of the player character being a bit of a child prodigy when it comes to Pokémon. That our Pokémon simply level up a lot faster, evolve at relatively early levels, always learn new moves on the first try, (nearly) always obey commands, and are generally much easier to handle, compared to what an average guy would have to go through. It explains how the player can easily catch a team of six Pokémon, train them all to rather high levels, and merrily beat trainers who have been doing this for many years. What we achieve in hours, other trainers might do in weeks or months if they dedicate all their time to it. Training your Pokémon noticeably stronger than the wild Pokémon in the area is usually completely out of the question for most people. We consider the evil team grunts to be weak and annoying with their Rattata and Zubat, but it's rather the opposite - you usually have to be a career trainer to handle anything stronger than Rattata and Zubat, both as a trainer and as an opponent. The evil team grunts' Pokémon are usually strong enough to defeat most people and go toe-to-toe with the Pokémon an average trainer can field, but we just brush them aside and defeat dozens of them in a row before having to heal our Pokémon.

Of course, some aspects of the game argue against this (such as people generally being expected to beat their Island Challenge, and even the player gets decent resistance here - which should mean every trial would be semi-impossible for regular trainers), but it does explain why your Pokémon are so much stronger than those of regular trainers, why nobody else fields a team of six Pokémon, and why your mother lets you travel the land and do this full-time. The player character is just incredibly talented.

 

[Pikachu315111]

Is it possible that Poni Island was just cut out of the island challenge altogether? The only reason the player does it is to awaken Nebby and save Lusamine, so it was more for plot reasons than the island challenge itself. And both the battle with Hapu and the dragon trial were unconventional to begin with, and Poni Island is largely uninhabited (the only town is a port with seasonal residents).

I think it's likely that the typical trial goer is expected to skip it.

Eh, but it still technically had a Captain. I would say at very least a Trial Goer who's trying to beat the Island Challenge would go to Poni Island as part of their duty, even if they couldn't do anything there. Like if they don't go through Vast Poni Canyon at least visit the Ruins of Hope.

Speaking of which, I kept getting the feeling that the island challenge was more "do as many as you can" rather than "do them all." Seemed like most trainers just did as many as they could then moved on to a real job. The prize for finishing all (or most) of them appears to be a spot as a kahuna or trial captain, and now a chance to face the pokemon league.

Actually they never really said what the reward was originally for beating the Island Challenge. The Kahuna is chosen by the Island Guardian and Captains are chosen by the Kahuna. None of it seems to be based if they beat the Island Challenge. Also the few trainers who did beat the Island Challenge you meet at the Pokemon League looked to have moved on with their life, so until the Pokemon League it looks like there was no reward aside bragging rights the honor.

Due to lacking Z-crystals, it's likely Team Skull largely failed to complete any trials, or at least no grand trials. For higher-ups like Guzma or Plumeria, it's likely they came close but didn't finish enough to get a trial captain offer. Especially Guzma, as his room practically screams "always second best." Unable to succeed at raising pokemon, they fell into a "disenfanchised youth with no clear future" trap and began taking their frustrations out on society.

I don't think the Team Skull members failed because they couldn't use Z-Crystals, they just weren't strong Pokemon trainers.

Sadly we don't know much about Plumeria's past so can't say much about her, though post game Sun & Moon shows she's perfectly capable of beating the Island Challenge now.

Guzma, honestly I'm not to sure what the game wants me to think about Guzma's skill as a trainer. On one hand the trophies in his room are silver & bronze and he still considers Hala his "master" which would mean he probably never beat him. But on the other hand he said he won competitions, was at least strong enough to aim for a Captain position (but turned down due to his attitude), was able to beat Gladion & Type: Null, and we later see him at the Battle Tree. So what is it game? Is Guzma always a "second banana" or is he a strong trainer that just got never got anywhere due to his attitude?

 

[Carrier]

Considering Guzma doesn't have a Z-Ring, I thought that he was screwed over by the Tapu more than his attitude, as it appears the ring is a base requirement to be captain.

Makes for decent, if a bit stale plot; great trainer and totally capable of being a captain or Kahuna, but gets shafted by the Tapu and goes all villain because of it.

 

[stage7_4]

I don't think the Team Skull members failed because they couldn't use Z-Crystals, they just weren't strong Pokemon trainers.

Sorry, I meant that as "given that none of the Team Skull members use Z-crystals, I take this as evidence that they didn't complete any trials." Not that they lost because of no Z-ring.

Although that does bring up a good point of how the games treat the Z-ring and Mega Ring as these super rare items available to a select few, but hand out Z-crystals by the dozen, and many trainers at the Battle Tree have both mega's and Z moves. Certain mega stones are so plentiful, they now sell them for battle points.

Really makes you wonder why the game keeps flipping back and forth about the rarity of this thing. I had this beef with X/Y too, as it made this big deal about how your rival couldn't get the only mega ring, but then come post-game it's "oh wait, look what I found in my attic! Mega-Absol!" In Sun/Moon Tapu Koko gives you the base for the Z-ring, and most mention that this is a rare opprotunity. But then all the captains have them, Hau gets one pretty quick, some random trainers have them (even before the Battle Tree). Guess those island guardians really are fickle.

I know this was a matter of time, since keeping Z-moves and Mega's limited to "special" characters was always going to be a temporary thing, mainly for the sake of gameplay. Just makes me wonder why they hype it so much only to then mass produce it.

 

[Carrier]

So I was looking up Team Skull to see if I could learn anything about them and realized something: Someone actually does use Z-Moves in Team Skull: Plumeria.

And because of that, I just realized something that's a pretty big question that wasn't ever really answered:

Who the heck is Plumeria?

She has, uses, and gives out Poisonium Z for seemingly no reason, is with Team Skull, but has little to no back story I'm aware of. She's the only member of Team Skull with a Z Ring and is allowed to actually contend for the Championship title; because of that, she might be one of the very few to beat the entirety of the Trials. She doesn't seem to harass people like other members of Team Skull and only really makes appearances to stick up for Grunts, and doesn't even seem to help them cause trouble. Her character is really interesting.

Is she actually a rogue captain? Why is she even with Team Skull?

 

[Detective Barricade]

Eh, but it still technically had a Captain. I would say at very least a Trial Goer who's trying to beat the Island Challenge would go to Poni Island as part of their duty, even if they couldn't do anything there. Like if they don't go through Vast Poni Canyon at least visit the Ruins of Hope.



Actually they never really said what the reward was originally for beating the Island Challenge. The Kahuna is chosen by the Island Guardian and Captains are chosen by the Kahuna. None of it seems to be based if they beat the Island Challenge. Also the few trainers who did beat the Island Challenge you meet at the Pokemon League looked to have moved on with their life, so until the Pokemon League it looks like there was no reward aside bragging rights the honor.



I don't think the Team Skull members failed because they couldn't use Z-Crystals, they just weren't strong Pokemon trainers.

Sadly we don't know much about Plumeria's past so can't say much about her, though post game Sun & Moon shows she's perfectly capable of beating the Island Challenge now.

Guzma, honestly I'm not to sure what the game wants me to think about Guzma's skill as a trainer. On one hand the trophies in his room are silver & bronze and he still considers Hala his "master" which would mean he probably never beat him. But on the other hand he said he won competitions, was at least strong enough to aim for a Captain position (but turned down due to his attitude), was able to beat Gladion & Type: Null, and we later see him at the Battle Tree. So what is it game? Is Guzma always a "second banana" or is he a strong trainer that just got never got anywhere due to his attitude?

Granted, once someone completes the Island Challenge and bests all of the kahuna available, they traditionally gather at the summit of Mount Lanakila to fight the kahuna again, this time all in a row. If successful, they earn the title of Island Challenge Champion. Kukui's idea was to make this a league and have one person emerge as the first league champion, the best of the best, if you will.

Guzma is supposed to be a really strong trainer, but his attitude got in the way and made him fail the Island Challenge. After the last time the player beats him, Hala offers to mentor Guzma and help him learn the true meaning of battling. He's strong enough to potentially challenge the champion, hence showing up in the Battle Tree.

Sorry, I meant that as "given that none of the Team Skull members use Z-crystals, I take this as evidence that they didn't complete any trials." Not that they lost because of no Z-ring.

Although that does bring up a good point of how the games treat the Z-ring and Mega Ring as these super rare items available to a select few, but hand out Z-crystals by the dozen, and many trainers at the Battle Tree have both mega's and Z moves. Certain mega stones are so plentiful, they now sell them for battle points.

Really makes you wonder why the game keeps flipping back and forth about the rarity of this thing. I had this beef with X/Y too, as it made this big deal about how your rival couldn't get the only mega ring, but then come post-game it's "oh wait, look what I found in my attic! Mega-Absol!" In Sun/Moon Tapu Koko gives you the base for the Z-ring, and most mention that this is a rare opprotunity. But then all the captains have them, Hau gets one pretty quick, some random trainers have them (even before the Battle Tree). Guess those island guardians really are fickle.

I know this was a matter of time, since keeping Z-moves and Mega's limited to "special" characters was always going to be a temporary thing, mainly for the sake of gameplay. Just makes me wonder why they hype it so much only to then mass produce it.

Maybe I'm misinterpreting things, but I was under the impression that being given a Z-ring was incredibly rare for an outsider. The player character only just moved to Alola from Kanto. As for the trainers in the Battle Tree, Sina and Dexio seem to suggest that Z-Rings and Mega Rings can perform the same functions if the user has the appropriate key components handy. (a Z-Crystal or Key Stone)

Also, Plumeria doesn't use Poisonium-Z until she's challenging the league, and Guzma has... Darkinium-Z for his Honchkrow. (why no Buginium-Z for Pinsir or Golisopod? A Savage Spin-Out coming off of the latter's First Impression would be awesome!)

 

[Pikachu315111]

Guzma has... Darkinium-Z for his Honchkrow. (why no Buginium-Z for Pinsir or Golisopod? A Savage Spin-Out coming off of the latter's First Impression would be awesome!)

Not only that, but the Honchkrow that has the Darkinium-Z is a Special Attacker, even though its highest stat is Physical. He has a Physical variant Honchkrow, but it uses a Life Orb. Actually, looking at his possible Pokemon, they could be better, it honestly looks like they intentionally made some of them not optimized for some reason.

 

[Siggu]

Also, Plumeria doesn't use Poisonium-Z until she's challenging the league, and Guzma has... Darkinium-Z for his Honchkrow. (why no Buginium-Z for Pinsir or Golisopod? A Savage Spin-Out coming off of the latter's First Impression would be awesome!)

Well, considering he uses his Mega slot for Pinsir in the Battle Tree, perhaps he had that reserved in story.

About not even Golisopod having a Buginium Z... well, that's a good question.

 

[Detective Barricade]

Not only that, but the Honchkrow that has the Darkinium-Z is a Special Attacker, even though its highest stat is Physical. He has a Physical variant Honchkrow, but it uses a Life Orb. Actually, looking at his possible Pokemon, they could be better, it honestly looks like they intentionally made some of them not optimized for some reason.

I think Game Freak just does that for some reason. Wally's Roserade in OR/AS has Petal Blizzard and Poison Jab, which run off its terrible Attack stat, instead of Petal Dance and Sludge Bomb which would use its great Special Attack. It's like the programmers just gravitate to the coolest sounding moves in the Pokemon's move pool without regard to making them optimized, and that's when they're not just using the last four moves it learns via level up and maybe a signature move obtainable as a TM for Gym Leaders in previous games. (I'm honestly surprised the Totem Pokemon generally have something resembling strategic movesets)

 

[Pikachu315111]

Well, considering he uses his Mega slot for Pinsir in the Battle Tree, perhaps he had that reserved in story.

About not even Golisopod having a Buginium Z... well, that's a good question.

Wait, I just might have thought why Golisopod doesn't hold a Buginium Z.

It's randomly chosen which Pokemon a trainer will have in the Battle Tree, the only stipulation that the Pokemon aren't the same species are are holding identical items. They gave Guzma a Pinsir who could become a Mega Pinsir. Now having a Mega Bug-type and a Buginium Z wouldn't make much sense, so instead they gave one of his Dark-types Darkinium Z. And since you can only use one Z move per battle, they didn't give any of his other Pokemon a Z-Crystal or end up having one of his Pokemon possibly holding an item they couldn't benefit from.

Had Guzma had team sets then maybe they could have given his Golisopod a Buginium Z in one of them, one which didn't have Mega Pinsir on it. But due to how they made the choosing system they didn't want to either give him two super Bug-type things or end up with multiple of his Pokemon holding Z-Crystals.

... So I think we should be asking instead why doesn't his Golisopod with Liquidation not carrying a Waterium Z (or one that could provide coverage)?