Mons that fell off HARD in-game with repeat appearances?

Ever since the BW1 list, I periodically think about how both Gigalith and Simipour went through hilarious awesomeness decay in BW2.

In BW1, they were arguably top ten mons for a playthrough. BW2? Just another mon of their types. Gigalith feels cripplingly slow in BW2 and way more vulnerable compared to other things, Simipour literally is both a rustling grass encounter and Battle Subway for a Water Stone unless you want a Simipour AFTER CLAY.

It’s a shame because it was nice to see archetypical / modest mons statwise become surprisingly useful-like look at how painfully mediocre Golem is in most games.

What are some mons you think are great in-game in one appearance, but can't measure up in later games?
 

Light Sanctity

The Usurper
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For me never used Gigalith due to no trading available :( and the monkey nope due to it always monkeying around :bloblul: But seriously I liked Sigilyph quite a bit when I first played but after subsequent runs; I disliked it due to the damage it could not do. It seemed to be pretty mediocre and possibly somewhat frail(?).
 
For me never used Gigalith due to no trading available :( and the monkey nope due to it always monkeying around :bloblul: But seriously I liked Sigilyph quite a bit when I first played but after subsequent runs; I disliked it due to the damage it could not do. It seemed to be pretty mediocre and possibly somewhat frail(?).
Sigilyph's issue isn't so much the stats. It has very respectable stats.

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Sigilyph's main issue is that it has very few major battle wins in Unova, which when combined with its bevy of weaknesses means it is basically doomed to "solid, yet relatively unremarkable" status despite an excellent movepool, though it has been a while since I have used it.

Heck I'd argue it's better in Kalos as it has actual major battle wins and gets Calm Mind maingame there.
 

ScraftyIsTheBest

On to new Horizons!
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From my experience playing Unova games Sigilyph's biggest problem is that it's a Psychic-type. Psychic is arguably the weakest type in Unova because the region simply isn't hospitable for the type at all. As DrumstickGaming pointed out, it has few major advantageous matchups in the game, and the only two types Psychic is advantageous against are Fighting and Poison, both of which are fairly uncommon, with Throh/Sawk and the Timburr line showng up fairly infrequently in Unova, and for Poison there's...Garbodor, Scolipede, and Foongus, all of which can be dealt with better by other mons, Garbodor is the only one that matters and a Ground-type like Sandile or Drilbur can take them down better while having more advantages and better matchups against Unova as a whole. And Psychic is also crippled with three glaring weaknesses, all of which are fairly common in Unova: Sigilyph is neutral to Bug, granted, but it has three more glaring weaknesses that are all ubiquitous in the Unova games.

Every time I've used any Psychic-type in Unova it was always the least used and often times, the least valuable member of my team. Reuniclus and Gothitelle are the other two that I've used and they were always the ones seeing the least usage on my team because I rarely needed to use them and they often found themselves in matchups that they were disadvantaged against, either because their STAB was rarely valuable or they lacked valuable resistances to aid against important matchups that weren't Marshal (and even then, two of the Elite Four completely decimate Psychic-types).
 
From my experience playing Unova games Sigilyph's biggest problem is that it's a Psychic-type. Psychic is arguably the weakest type in Unova because the region simply isn't hospitable for the type at all. As DrumstickGaming pointed out, it has few major advantageous matchups in the game, and the only two types Psychic is advantageous against are Fighting and Poison, both of which are fairly uncommon, with Throh/Sawk and the Timburr line showng up fairly infrequently in Unova, and for Poison there's...Garbodor, Scolipede, and Foongus, all of which can be dealt with better by other mons, Garbodor is the only one that matters and a Ground-type like Sandile or Drilbur can take them down better while having more advantages and better matchups against Unova as a whole. And Psychic is also crippled with three glaring weaknesses, all of which are fairly common in Unova: Sigilyph is neutral to Bug, granted, but it has three more glaring weaknesses that are all ubiquitous in the Unova games.

Every time I've used any Psychic-type in Unova it was always the least used and often times, the least valuable member of my team. Reuniclus and Gothitelle are the other two that I've used and they were always the ones seeing the least usage on my team because I rarely needed to use them and they often found themselves in matchups that they were disadvantaged against, either because their STAB was rarely valuable or they lacked valuable resistances to aid against important matchups that weren't Marshal (and even then, two of the Elite Four completely decimate Psychic-types).
Reuniclus I will at the very least defend. Sure it's a Psychic type without the greatest movepool until later, and yeah it's slow, but at the very least your moves hurt when you get an attack in (fun fact: Duosion and Reuniclus both have 125 Special Attack. Yes, really.)

Reuniclus is basically a 100x better Musharna. Hits harder, comparable bulk, movepool that's not obnoxious. I think I almost wanted it in A tier in our list if it wasn't for the Speed (similar to Escavalier).

Now Gothitelle? Yeah, that's an average piece of garbage, truly unremarkable in every way.
 
I think Mankey from FRLG to HGSS kind of qualifies. Though FRLG wasn't its first appearance, Kanto was its first region.

I wrote here about Mankey giving what I believe is an A tier performance in FRLG. Peridorito wrote a very good piece about it here as well.

On its repeat appearance in Johto, specifically HGSS, it just wholly underwhelms. Losing Brick Break as a viable TM without an adequate replacement was one of its biggest losses. Losing Rock Slide as a move tutor option sucked as well. So did losing Bulk Up as another viable TM.

Heracross coming along and pretty much doing anything Primeape could do in this game but better, was a further thorn in its side. And Lance serving as one of the two main bosses to watch out for in this game (the other being Red) was its final nail in the coffin; talk about an awful matchup for such a critical fight. Even Heracross has some utility in this fight with Counter.

Goes from being one of the best mons in FRLG, certified A tier, to mediocre at best in HGSS, scraping the barrel at around C tier, if that.
 
I think Mankey from FRLG to HGSS kind of qualifies. Though FRLG wasn't its first appearance, Kanto was its first region.

I wrote here about Mankey giving what I believe is an A tier performance in FRLG. Peridorito wrote a very good piece about it here as well.

On its repeat appearance in Johto, specifically HGSS, it just wholly underwhelms. Losing Brick Break as a viable TM without an adequate replacement was one of its biggest losses. Losing Rock Slide as a move tutor option sucked as well. So did losing Bulk Up as another viable TM.

Heracross coming along and pretty much doing anything Primeape could do in this game but better, was a further thorn in its side. And Lance serving as one of the two main bosses to watch out for in this game (the other being Red) was its final nail in the coffin; talk about an awful matchup for such a critical fight. Even Heracross has some utility in this fight with Counter.

Goes from being one of the best mons in FRLG, certified A tier, to mediocre at best in HGSS, scraping the barrel at around C tier, if that.
Mankey is also a very good option in Yellow, being one of the designated ways to beat Brock. It has solid offensive stats, a good TM movepool, and a guaranteed-crit move. And then in all non-Kanto games it's trash due to 455 BST, a rather generic movepool, and generally not showing up until lategame.

Ralts in RSE is basically a slower, bulkier Alakazam that doesn't require trading. It's a beast. Every gen since then, it's been either locked behind that gen's catching gimmick, or it's just outclassed or a bad matchup for the majority of the game. And it's even gotten a pretty reasonable set of buffs in that time period, it's just that the games are unkind to it.
 
Mankey is also a very good option in Yellow, being one of the designated ways to beat Brock. It has solid offensive stats, a good TM movepool, and a guaranteed-crit move. And then in all non-Kanto games it's trash due to 455 BST, a rather generic movepool, and generally not showing up until lategame.

Ralts in RSE is basically a slower, bulkier Alakazam that doesn't require trading. It's a beast. Every gen since then, it's been either locked behind that gen's catching gimmick, or it's just outclassed or a bad matchup for the majority of the game. And it's even gotten a pretty reasonable set of buffs in that time period, it's just that the games are unkind to it.
Huh? Why do you need a Mankey to beat Brock? Just turn on the sprinklers
 

QuentinQuonce

formerly green_typhlosion
Throh and Sawk have stayed fairly consistent across the generations, but they get outperformed hard in their own generation. They're early-game mons in BW, coming before the second badge with a massive advantage against Lenora (and performing generally well against the majority of the other gym leaders). In B2W2, however, they're at the other end of the Unova Dex. In fact, the first place they can be caught is, uh... Route 23. Right before Victory Road. Riolu is the first Fighting-type players can obtain (aside from Tepig if that's chosen), and Unova in B2W2 is crammed with better Fighting-types that come much earlier, such as Heracross, Scraggy, Croagunk, Timburr, Cobalion, and even Mienfoo. Plus Keldeo if you caught the event. Sawk and Throh had one big niche in BW, but that was it for them. In Gen VI and VIII they're partial version-exclusives and in Gen VII they're not present.

In terms of which mons perform worse in later generations, Milotic comes to mind. It's a pretty stellar tank in Gen III, but the increasing power creep even in Gen IV has seen it fall off in terms of popularity. 125 Special Defence is great when your only weaknesses are Electric and Grass, but precisely one generation later, we got physical Electric and Grass moves, which its 79 Defence is much less capable of dealing with. It's still certainly a good Pokemon, but every generation has moved it further from that peak. Mechanically it's also far easier to obtain and evolve in Gen IV onwards than it was in Gen III which has dented its mystique somewhat.
 
I think this applies to Sandshrew/Sandslash going from gen 1 to gen 2. It's only in blue and yellow in gen 1, but you get it very early from the patch of grass between Mt. Moon and Cerulean City. It's nothing special right when you catch it, but you can teach it Dig as soon as you get the TM in Cerulean and it learns Slash at level 17. In RBY, Dig is 100 base power, and because of the speed-based critical hit formula, Slash has a 62.5% critical hit rate for Sandshrew and 100% for Sandslash. So, by level 17 Sandshrew gets two extremely strong moves it can use for the rest of the game, and by level 22 it evolves into Sandslash. Sandslash is one of the strongest pokemon you can have at that early of a level with its 100 base attack, combined with a 100 base power stab move and an effectively 140 base power coverage move. You can also teach it Rock Slide for additional coverage once you get the TM. Its 65 base speed is even somewhat respectable since you get stat experience and NPC trainers don't. Overall, Sandshrew/Sandslash is one of the best pokemon in the game from level 20 to 30, and is strong enough to stay competitive late game.

Fast forward to gen 2 and everything is worse for Sandshrew. it's found at a slightly lower level, making it further away from evolution. The Dig TM is much farther away (you get Sandshrew in Union Cave and the Dig TM is in the national park). Even worse is that Dig was massively nerfed from 100 base power to 60 in gen 2. Slash also doesn't have a 100% critical hit rate any more, so your main attacks go from 150 power with stab + 140 from the guaranteed critical hit to 90 power with stab and 70 power with only a slightly higher than normal chance to critical hit. There are also a lot fewer poison types to beat up on in Johto compared to Kanto, although at least the Koffings and Gastlys don't have levitate yet in gen 2.
 

bdt2002

Pokémon Ranger: Guardian Signs superfan
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:rs/diglett: :rs/dugtrio:

You wouldn't think it at first since Gen 3 is when these Kanto-native Ground-Types first made their presence as the gold standard of Arena Trap Pokémon in the competitive scene, but Diglett was massively nerfed in the transition between the original Gen 1 Kanto games and FireRed & LeafGreen, and for good reason. In fact, outside of Diglett's Alolan form, I don't think it's ever been even close to that point of viability in the rest of the main series. Vizka already mentioned the nerf to the move Dig in Gen 2 which lowered the move's base power from 100 to 60, which was only partially compensated for in Gen 4 with the increase from 60 to 80. This nerf in particular harms Diglett since its evolution line was the only Pokémon in the Kanto based games that did not require the one-time use TM that you can get in Cerulean City. Unfortunately, the nerfs didn't stop there for our burrowing friends. Let's take a look at my list of unofficial "patch notes" for Diglett's and Dugtrio's in-game nerfs, shall we?

-"Signature move" (in quotes) Dig base power lowered to 60 to 80 (from 100)
-"Signature move" (in quotes) Fissure glitch involving X Accuracy patched in Gen 2 onward
-Critical hit ratios lowered to 6.25% (from 18.55% for Diglett and 23.43% for Dugtrio)
-Diglett's Special Attack in Gen 2 lowered to 35 (from 45 Special in Gen 1)
-Dugtrio's Special Attack in Gen 2 lowered to 50 (from 70 Special in Gen 1)
-Every Pokémon in the game was by definition nerfed by Gen 3's change from stat experience to EVs

Now that I think about it, most of these nerfs are actually very similar to Vizka's post about Sandshrew, and to be fair it's not like you'll be using Dugtrio as a special sweeper anytime soon. Also, yes, both of those technically count as signature moves: in Gens 1 and 2 respectively, these were the only Pokémon who could learn Dig and Fissure respectively by level-up. RBY Diglett was an absolute monster made even better by the fact it has its own cave where you can find it and its evolution, and in every game since then apart from Gen 7's games (including Let's Go which was very kind to it overall), it has only been a shell of its former self.
 
Nidoking may be my favorite mon, but going from Gen 1 to 2 hurt it bad. Not available until the third gym and lack of instant Moon Stone hurts.

Also, Girafarig goes from being available right before two great Gyms for it in Gen 2 to a Safari Zone only encounter in Gen 3. It's never been quite as powerful as it was then.
 
:rs/diglett: :rs/dugtrio:

*snipped*
I'd say the main change for Diglett was the introduction of Abilities and the fact that other regions aren't Kanto. In RBY, Diglett is available right before Surge, and has good matchups against Koga, Blaine, Giovanni, Agatha, Lance, arguably Sabrina, and about a million Rockets/Hikers. No later gen game is going to be as good as that, with basically only Erika and Lorelei being bad major fights.
By FR/LG, Levitate exists. Suddenly all those Koffings and Ghastlys that Dugtrio could wreck are immune to it's STAB. That really hurts it in a lot of major fights, and coverage moves/Earthquake hurt it in others. And then in non-Kanto regions, there's usually a much worse list of potential gyms to use it at. It's actually been buffed pretty significantly in various ways, but there's no way for Dugtrio to get back to being the king sweeper again.
 
Lilligant is probably a good example.

In its home generation it was a pretty solid option despite its lack of type coverage because Sleep + Quiver Dance is such a stupidly good combo. Yes it has plenty of not great match-ups (Skyla, Burgh, Drayden, Brycen, in BW2 add Colress), but it does get set-up opportunities in a lot of other fights, and its generally a solid mon in the Unova games.

Then it came back in the Alola games. The Alola games weren't kind to Lilligant, much at all. The first big issue is that getting Quiver Dance on it is a hassle now. Either pray to Poke Pelago RNG gods or wait until the third island to evolve your Petilil, and by that point, it'd likely not even get Quiver Dance. Once you get past this, there's a ton of terrible match-ups for Petilil/Lilligant to deal with. Marowak/Salazzle, Lurantis, Araquanid, Guzma, Togedemaru/Vikavolt, Kommo-o, Ribombee, Molayne, Kahili. The Petilil stage's lack of speed really shows in Alola. I used a Lilligant in my OG playthrough of Sun, and while it wasn't bad, it didn't have too many opportunities to show its thing. In USUM where the difficulty is much higher, forget about it. Though Giga Drain tutor early is neat I guess.
 
Lilligant is probably a good example.

In its home generation it was a pretty solid option despite its lack of type coverage because Sleep + Quiver Dance is such a stupidly good combo. Yes it has plenty of not great match-ups (Skyla, Burgh, Drayden, Brycen, in BW2 add Colress), but it does get set-up opportunities in a lot of other fights, and its generally a solid mon in the Unova games.

Then it came back in the Alola games. The Alola games weren't kind to Lilligant, much at all. The first big issue is that getting Quiver Dance on it is a hassle now. Either pray to Poke Pelago RNG gods or wait until the third island to evolve your Petilil, and by that point, it'd likely not even get Quiver Dance. Once you get past this, there's a ton of terrible match-ups for Petilil/Lilligant to deal with. Marowak/Salazzle, Lurantis, Araquanid, Guzma, Togedemaru/Vikavolt, Kommo-o, Ribombee, Molayne, Kahili. The Petilil stage's lack of speed really shows in Alola. I used a Lilligant in my OG playthrough of Sun, and while it wasn't bad, it didn't have too many opportunities to show its thing. In USUM where the difficulty is much higher, forget about it. Though Giga Drain tutor early is neat I guess.
Yeah Lilligant was a borderline S tier in our BW1 list. Alola was just not its region.

How about Drowzee? In Gen 1, it was an (admittedly slightly lesser) S tier thanks to Drowzee eating things alive as a Psychic type once you get level 17 Comfusion in just a few levels and a very early evolution. In subsequent generations its monster 115 Special stat became its Special Defense while Special Attack became a bleh 73, leaving Hypno a jack of all stats but also a painful master of none, being a C tier in pretty much every new game.

Poor Mareep man. It was one of the best options in GSC, decent in HGSS (wait for Discharge keeps it from A tier) but then in every other game it’s been painfully overshadowed by simply more options, most notably Magnemite in spite of Ampharos having solid stats. A mostly mono-Electric attacker (Signal Beam and Focus Blast aren’t much to get excited about) in Amphy simply doesn’t cut it in BW2 or USUM (in XY Mareep also comes painfully underleveled in hordes, discouraging you from using one of the few maingame Mega Evolutions).
 
For me, the quintessential example is this one here:
:dp/luxray:
Luxray is an absolute shitwrecker in its inaugural generation; obtainable almost immediately, can utilize both Physical and Special attacks, decent movepool, and is a huge boon against the cacophony of Water-types in Sinnoh. And it doesn't hurt that there aren't many other Electric-types it has to compete with in Sinnoh either. And post-DPP... I all but stopped noticing it at all. I suppose it doesn't help that between DPP and SwSh there was no way to get it in-game prior to the postgame, but even then, every generation since has introduced at least one other Electric-type that I'd rather use instead (e.g. Galvantula and Eelektross in Gen 5, Heliolisk in 6, Vikavolt and Alolan Raichu in 7, Toxtricity and Morpeko in 8).

A few lesser ones:
:sudowoodo: Having decent Attack and being one of the few mons who could learn Rock Slide in Gen 2 made Sudowoodo fairly low-maintenance in that generation (at least for a mono-Rock mon). In the time between then and now? It's fallen so far that it's outclassed by Stonjourner of all things.

:persian: High Speed + STAB Body Slam and Hyper Beam is fun to spam Critical Hits with... when the game's mechanics allow it, that is.
 
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If everything is nerfed, nothing is.
This is not really true though!
The change from stat experience to EVs means "everything is frailer and there is more of an opportunity cost to mixed offenses" - that's going to hit some Pokémon differently than others and hit some harder than others, not just evenly scale everything
Dugtrio is affected more than average by the inability to run bulk investment because of its naturally low base HP, Defense and Special Defense - Gen I Dugtrio has no less than 1.9 times the physical bulk of Gen III Dugtrio (compared to modern Dugtrio, Gen I Dugtrio was basically always behind Reflect! this does not magically even out unless we assume every physical Pokémon hit 1.9 times harder in Gen I, which... they didn't P:) and another 1.763 times the special bulk.

The reason I say this is specific to Dugtrio is because Pokémon are affected far less by losing EVs in stats that are already high - let's compare something whose stats lean a different way and are much higher than Dugtrio's, like Blissey.
Blissey was only about 20% more specially bulky with stat experience than it is today and actually has 10% more physical bulk now because of natures, while Dugtrio may have 10% more Attack to counteract but it may instead have 10% more Speed to deal with all of the other Pokémon that have 10% more Speed than they used to, and so on. In turn, Blissey runs Special Attack (and special attacking moves) much less often in current metagames, but can we assume that means it loses as much Special Attack as Dugtrio lost Special Defense? Well... actually no, not even close! Blissey with free investment only hits just shy of 34% harder with its special moves in Gen II than it does now, while Dugtrio takes over 76% more damage now than before - it does not even out to be the same!

The point isn't that Blissey vs Dugtrio is a specific and important matchup that changed or anything - I'm just trying to highlight how different both Pokémon are from each other in the way that this change affected them. Nerfing everything in the same way does not mean nerfing everything by the same amount and it did hit Pokémon with different stats and in different roles much, much more than others even in terms of raw numerical differences!

I'm aware we're talking about in-game, so this isn't really relevant, but I also want to highlight that Dugtrio was actually a lot better in Gen III OU than the preceding Generations because it got something way more important than most of its bulk an Ability
Every Pokémon got an Ability, but Dugtrio's Ability was more important to it than other Pokémon's Abilities were to them
Every Pokémon was nerfed at the same time, but every Pokémon was also buffed at the same time... and that doesn't amount to the same as "no one" being nerfed and "no one" being buffed - it means every Pokémon changed even more between the two systems and power levels and dynamics shifted even more between different metagames
Dugtrio got a lot worse in-game because its big buff, Arena Trap, is a functionally much less useful Ability in-game (NPCs in Gen III barely know how to switch, so its massive competitive buff was irrelevant), while its disproportionately substantial bulk decrease matters a lot more in-game (it was probably always pretty frail in competitive, but opponents in-game are uninvested and do less damage in general, so there are a lot of hits it could live before that it can't now); it lost more than it gained for in-game purposes and bdt2002 was right to identify that as a factor
and that's another thing that's not true of literally every Pokémon; every Pokémon lost bulk in different amounts and gained Abilities to different effect, which does not make them even roughly the same as before!

Also, even in the hypothetical situation that all Pokémon were affected to the same extent, do you really think that would be the same as not nerfing anything at all? A game where everything takes 25% less damage is going to be way, way different from a game where everything does 33% more damage, and both of them are going to be way, way different from what we have now
The same change was made to every Pokémon, but it's still biased towards some roles and against others
A universally-bulkier metagame is probably biased a lot more towards defensive playing styles but also makes it a lot safer to run setup and sweep, while a universally-frailer one may make stall less viable but makes it that much easier to revenge sweepers and for fast Pokémon without setup to come in and clean efficiently and at earlier points in the game; there is a lot more to it than just "did we raise everything's stats by the same amount?"

There's also the really fun example that LGPE has had two playable metas - a candy meta (close-ish to stat experience but every Pokémon has literally 200 more points in every stat) and a candyless one (candy is banned so Pokémon are outright uninvested in all stats) - and the way these play is incredibly different; the candy meta proved way less popular to my knowledge because it was so much more difficult to make progress in general (even Rest was reliable recovery on most things because lasting three turns was just easy), while some unusual setup sweepers like Venomoth actually still thrived there because they had a much easier time setting up than in other metagames
On paper, the same change was made to every single Pokémon, but the game was still different - in your terms, every Pokémon in candyless was nerfed, but it was nothing like when no Pokémon were nerfed even though "everything has 200 less in all stats" is the only difference that exists between the two metagames

This is also like saying that adding a new held item doesn't change anything as long as every Pokémon can hold it, which is obviously not true (see Boots! those changed a lot about how the game is played, and they benefited Rock-weak Pokémon, hazard control users and defensive pivots a whole lot more in different ways and to different extents from one another)
and this kind of thing is why Dynamax was banned competitively, too - people often ask "how can it be broken if both players have it/how can it make anything broken if every Pokémon has it?" but despite doing literally the same thing to every Pokémon on the surface, it doesn't affect every Pokémon the same way and only specific archetypes can take proper advantage of it (and even if every Pokémon could use it the same way, that wouldn't necessarily preserve existing power dynamics exactly)

I know you're just quoting the Incredibles but still
This kind of mindset makes genuinely huge mechanical changes sound a lot less interesting than they really are :<
 
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