Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread v2

Status
Not open for further replies.

6ft Torbjorn

formerly JoycapJoshST
While on the topic of Mega Beedrill - I have found it, alongside Sticky Web, to be INCREDIBLY good vs HO and other grounded offensive teams. Replay: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-544758579

I'm aware that it might not be the best example due to a couple of misplays (and an unlucky Draco miss turn 6) - but with the discussion of Mosa vs MegaDrill, I think this might be a slightly underrated way of our favorite bee assassinating the cockroach (though this CAN go both ways). If you've seen the post I put on Martin 's Week 4 'know your niche' I think you'll all get why this works.

Might want to add an SR user to the team shown (had Duggy for the longest time in an earlier version). Thoughts?
 

INSANE CARZY GUY

Banned deucer.
The given match doesn't offer up when to use bee over phesmo, phesmo could have used a fighting stab(not a Z move in the case of Your thunderous) and killed ferrothorn or garchomp and honestly clean swept the team

Beedrill using knock off and u turn vs a stall team could be damning also magearna slow turning to mega bee might give it more chances to shine and with arua sphere it could eat ferrothorn decently

252+ SpA Magearna Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 124-148 (35.2 - 42%) -- 84.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

or hp fire

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magearna Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 280-332 (79.5 - 94.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Magearna Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 188-224 (53.4 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
 
The given match doesn't offer up when to use bee over phesmo, phesmo could have used a fighting stab(not a Z move in the case of Your thunderous) and killed ferrothorn or garchomp and honestly clean swept the team

Beedrill using knock off and u turn vs a stall team could be damning also magearna slow turning to mega bee might give it more chances to shine and with arua sphere it could eat ferrothorn decently

252+ SpA Magearna Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 124-148 (35.2 - 42%) -- 84.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

or hp fire

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magearna Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 280-332 (79.5 - 94.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Magearna Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 188-224 (53.4 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
I've found success actually pairing Bee with Phero. No team really likes taking that many strong U-Turns, and they both provide an insane amount of momentum.
 
Just watched the above 3 replays from the above 2 posts (Edit: well there have been 2 posts since then), I'm not sure what they show that relates to beedrill's effectiveness in the meta.

Replay 1 - it lands a knock off on a 50% health alowak switchin, getting the KO. Then the Zam player mispredicts a ninja switchin and uses DGleam on the beedrill that stayed in, allowing it to get the kill.

Replay 2 - the one beedrill dies to ninja water shuriken before doing anything, the other beedrill fails to KO kyub (getting 30% with it's lauded STAB pJab) before dying.

Replay 3 - Beedrill got a knock off on ferrothorn, hitting it for about 30%, and then didn't do anything else.


A common theme among these replays however is that Beedrill racks up chip damage on itself very easily (thru EHs and rocky helmet, as it clicks uturn most frequently) and it fails to pickup KOs (though this is in part due to the fact that it's a uturner, and thus it's job is often to threaten the KO but not go for it). I'll put in some more time to give beedrill a chance and see if it has a niche, but at this point I haven't seen or experienced anything that suggests it's worth using over pheromosa, or any other u-turner for that matter.

People have suggested it's STAB pJab is it's niche, but it picks up the exact same KOs as pheromosa. That is: OHKO on lele, OHKO on bulu, OHKO on koko, 2HKO on fini.

252 Atk Adaptability Beedrill-Mega Poison Jab vs. 248 HP / 192+ Def Tapu Fini: 268-316 (78.1 - 92.1%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Pheromosa Poison Jab vs. 248 HP / 192+ Def Tapu Fini: 161-192 (46.9 - 55.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

What even is the point? So you get a 25% chance to OHKO a mon that you both outspeed and 2HKO anyway?

It's a glass cannon that can't break the most common walls/defensive pivots in the game, has bad coverage (both the move types and base power), and fails to punish it's main switchins with those STAB uturns, while those switchins often punish it back with rocky helmet and a super effective SR.


I don't mean to come off like 'beedrill is trash lol why are you using it.' Just a genuine question since there could be uses I haven't seen or thought of, why would you use it? What exactly does it offer that makes it worth a mega slot and makes it worth running on an OU team? Is there a set that allows it to break (or cheese) past Landorus-T, Skarmory, Celesteela, Mega-Meta?
 

6ft Torbjorn

formerly JoycapJoshST
I think one thing to keep in mind is how the presence of Mega Beedrill, with Adaptability and 145 Attack / 150 Speed, can be used as a form of pressure (and has distinct cleanup ability, per chance). For example - the RP that I posted, I could have cleaned with Excadrill the second Grachomp was weakened (which was turn 2), and when Ferro was also weakened or killed (which in a way was what happened, but I could have identified that earlier). All the while, my opponent was potentially on edge trying to think of a way around MegaDrill. Something to think about, I guess?

Also, my opponents team looks distinctly looks like something from the sample teams (or similar). Is this the case?
 
I think one thing to keep in mind is how the presence of Mega Beedrill, with Adaptability and 145 Attack / 150 Speed, can be used as a form of pressure (and has distinct cleanup ability, per chance). For example - the RP that I posted, I could have cleaned with Excadrill the second Grachomp was weakened (which was turn 2), and when Ferro was also weakened or killed (which in a way was what happened, but I could have identified that earlier). All the while, my opponent was potentially on edge trying to think of a way around MegaDrill. Something to think about, I guess?

Also, my opponents team looks distinctly looks like something from the sample teams (or similar). Is this the case?
Yes, we're keeping this in mind, but we are simply asking why Pheromosa would not have performed similarly well in your scenario. You have not brought up any points that distinguish Mega Beedrill from Pheromosa.
 

INSANE CARZY GUY

Banned deucer.
I don't think sticky web is the way to go honestly unless You run max attack nature

I'd like to say i'm saltly as hell i've nomed ditto 3 times for C rank hovering 25-50 for a while pre duggy test and I played with the ditto slot for a long time with other mons and sunk like a rock, it's nearly always D/C+ even in ubers and I really thing how hard it bodies other stall outside of reg cores it's nutty not to say it's super niche for "some stall teams"

Soon the meta with be flooded with mega options making it even better

However I haven't had to many problems with mega mawile yet, is this a match-up issue or not having been prepared for enough yet?

I really hope S/M meta stays good in being lure/play heavy vs last gen being super match up heavy to the point clefable/lando got spammed for their glob coverage

idk I think it's a skill/play heavy meta overall
 
I concur with you on both points, Ditto being good (and not just on Stall) and the meta being heavily skill-based right now. I don't think there's a single thing that I really want to see banned.
honestly I agree completely and it makes me really happy to see people actually being reasonable. sometimes it feels like people lack the ability to distinguish between a top tier, S-rank mon and broken, and assume that the two are one and the same. if all the top threats are banned, new ones will just take their place. obviously there are cases where somethings clearly worthy of a suspect, but personally nothing right now seems like it needs to be gone for a healthy meta at all
 
With the three steel Megas running rampant I want to bring up physically defensive Rotom-H. It does love rocks off the field but it can usually account for Megagross, Scizor and Mawile. Also a solid pivot (not as good as wash) despite the burn nerf and is really useful against a tonne of common mons including most Celesteela, Ferrothorn, Tapu Koko, Magearna and some variants of Pheromosa, Tapu Bulu and Lando-T.

Set I've been using:

Rotom-Heat @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 208 Def / 48 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Pain Split
- Overheat
- Volt Switch
- Will-O-Wisp

Some Calcs:
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 208+ Def Rotom-Heat: 132-156 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

50 SpA Rotom-Heat Overheat vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 284-336 (94.3 - 111.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 208+ Def Rotom-Heat: 234-276 (76.9 - 90.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

50 SpA Rotom-Heat Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mawile-Mega: 320-378 (105.2 - 124.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 

6ft Torbjorn

formerly JoycapJoshST
With the three steel Megas running rampant I want to bring up physically defensive Rotom-H. It does love rocks off the field but it can usually account for Megagross, Scizor and Mawile. Also a solid pivot (not as good as wash) despite the burn nerf and is really useful against a tonne of common mons including most Celesteela, Ferrothorn, Tapu Koko, Magearna and some variants of Pheromosa, Tapu Bulu and Lando-T.

Set I've been using:

Rotom-Heat @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 208 Def / 48 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Pain Split
- Overheat
- Volt Switch
- Will-O-Wisp

Some Calcs:
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 208+ Def Rotom-Heat: 132-156 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

50 SpA Rotom-Heat Overheat vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 284-336 (94.3 - 111.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 208+ Def Rotom-Heat: 234-276 (76.9 - 90.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

50 SpA Rotom-Heat Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mawile-Mega: 320-378 (105.2 - 124.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Ah yes, I DID have HeaTom in the back of my mind when thinking of how I could have improved earlier versions of my Mega Beedrill team that you guys have seen. There's that PhysDef set, or TrickScarf that I could've used.

Say, who here thinks TrickScarf could work with that spread?
 
With the three steel Megas running rampant I want to bring up physically defensive Rotom-H. It does love rocks off the field but it can usually account for Megagross, Scizor and Mawile. Also a solid pivot (not as good as wash) despite the burn nerf and is really useful against a tonne of common mons including most Celesteela, Ferrothorn, Tapu Koko, Magearna and some variants of Pheromosa, Tapu Bulu and Lando-T.

Set I've been using:

Rotom-Heat @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 208 Def / 48 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Pain Split
- Overheat
- Volt Switch
- Will-O-Wisp

Some Calcs:
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 208+ Def Rotom-Heat: 132-156 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

50 SpA Rotom-Heat Overheat vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 284-336 (94.3 - 111.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 208+ Def Rotom-Heat: 234-276 (76.9 - 90.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

50 SpA Rotom-Heat Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mawile-Mega: 320-378 (105.2 - 124.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Just wondering about how useful pain split and will-O wisp are given Rotom's awful defence against ground moves - might you not be better off running HP ice, and perhaps some speed EVs?
 
Just wondering about how useful pain split and will-O wisp are given Rotom's awful defence against ground moves - might you not be better off running HP ice, and perhaps some speed EVs?
Will O Wisp is usually what I click when facing Mawile as it ruins any move it tries to use - it is essential. Pain Split seems to be far and away the best option in the final slot for potential recovery and wearing down fat mons. The EVs I have are specifically designed to OHKO Megagross after rocks and maximise bulk - feel free to invest in speed though Mawile is hardly ever invested enough to outspeed in my experience.
 
With the three steel Megas running rampant I want to bring up physically defensive Rotom-H. It does love rocks off the field but it can usually account for Megagross, Scizor and Mawile. Also a solid pivot (not as good as wash) despite the burn nerf and is really useful against a tonne of common mons including most Celesteela, Ferrothorn, Tapu Koko, Magearna and some variants of Pheromosa, Tapu Bulu and Lando-T.

Set I've been using:

Rotom-Heat @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 208 Def / 48 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Pain Split
- Overheat
- Volt Switch
- Will-O-Wisp

Some Calcs:
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 208+ Def Rotom-Heat: 132-156 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

50 SpA Rotom-Heat Overheat vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 284-336 (94.3 - 111.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 208+ Def Rotom-Heat: 234-276 (76.9 - 90.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

50 SpA Rotom-Heat Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mawile-Mega: 320-378 (105.2 - 124.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Small thing, but wouldn't it be better to go max Defense and less-than-max HP so you can make your HP count as low as possible for Pain Split?


On another note, I've heard a lot of folks talking about Choice Band Zygarde-50% (the Worm not the Dog). What's all the hub-bub about it?
 
Small thing, but wouldn't it be better to go max Defense and less-than-max HP so you can make your HP count as low as possible for Pain Split?


On another note, I've heard a lot of folks talking about Choice Band Zygarde-50% (the Worm not the Dog). What's all the hub-bub about it?
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/metagame-discussion-thread-v2.3592140/page-22#post-7259208

I think the rise of Banded Zygarde is interesting, but also logical. It's somewhat similar to Banded Dragonite from last gen, only...better in a lot of ways?

1. General Bulk/Typing. Sure, not having Multiscale sucks especially because Zygarde's ability is literally useless in OU, but Rocks and chip damage meant Dragonite couldn't abuse Multiscale as often as it would like (compared to say, a DD/Roost set). In addition, Dragonite is weak to Stealth Rock, really hindering the lifespan and ability to switch in repeatedly, and Zygarde resists Stealth Rock (while taking full damage from Spikes and Toxic Spikes isn't great, it's arguably better than being weak to Stealth Rock). Meanwhile, while Dragonite's 91/95/100 bulk is quite nice, but 108/121/95 bulk is substantially more (especially on the physical side), and not having a weakness to SR is huge.

Dragonite is also hindered by all four terrains, while Zygarde benefits from them: Burn and Toxic are great ways to either neuter Band Zygarde's power, or put it on a timer and decrease the effective bulk it has, and Misty Terran negates that (Dragonite can still get Burned or Toxic'd, both break Multiscale and either cripple BandNite or put it on a timer); Psychic Terrain is less useful because it stops your Extremespeed...but it also stops Ice Shard from Weavile and Mamoswine which can pick you off easily (Dragonite still gets picked off by Ice Shard, while not being able to use Extremespeed at all); Grassy Terrain gives you extra recovery and halves the power of Earthquakes thrown by Landorus-T (most often) at you, while not hindering the damage your Thousand Arrows does (Dragonite doesn't get the extra recovery while halving the power of the most common coverage move it uses on the Band set, Earthquake); Electric Terrain....well, Zygarde is immune to Electric attacks anyways and I guess you can't get put to sleep, but at least you're not hindered by it (Dragonite does not enjoy taking +1 Electric attacks in the slightest).

Zygarde is also blessed with an immunity to Electric moves, something very useful in a meta with stuff like Tapu Koko running around, while Dragonite can be Volt Switched on for momentum (obviously U-Turn still works and Koko runs that more often now, but still, Thunderbolt from Koko/Magearna/Lele are reasonably common). This all means Zygarde generally can switch into more stuff (better overall bulk) more often (no SR weakness).

2. Thousand Arrows. This is probably the biggest thing. BandNite hits noticeably harder than Zygarde, but it also could not make use of its secondary STAB, and while it had good coverage (Elemental Punches, EQ) and good priority (Espeed), not being able to use secondary STAB is never ideal. In addition, Bandnite was commonly walled depending on what it was locked into (Elemental Punches walled usually by Tran or Ferro, EQ by anything with Levitate or Flying, Outrage by Fairies, Extremespeed by anything bulky, TOGEKISS). Meanwhile, Zygarde can spam Choice Band boosted Thousand Arrows and hit everything, even if it's a resist. Stuff like Skarmory or the Lati twins or Landorus-T take valuable chip damage each time they come in on Thousand Arrows, and you don't actually lose much momentum if they come in (relative to EQ/Dragon spam, which things are actually immune to).

This, coupled with Zygarde's great bulk, lets it sit there as stuff like Skarm and Lando-T come in to check/counter you and get chip damage as they phase you out or something, instead of just losing momentum/being set up for things like Mega Charizard (both forms), etc.
 

Disjunction

Everything I waste gets recycled
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Top Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Hey guys, I know this is slightly off-topic, but I put together a resource that I think other people could make good use of.

http://pastebin.com/spEtvevT

It's a folder that you copy into your teambuilder. It has all of the ou viable pokemon (taken from VR) listed and categorized by sets for ease of access during teambuilding. I made a similar one for oras nu near the end of the gen and it helped a lot for remembering sets, and pasting stuff together quickly. The NU one I made had some really obscure and strange sets because I made the list with the mindset of "I'm going to include everything that I could see myself using" but for this list I'm posting in OU, I think it's safer to just post a list of sets that have been proven to work. Feel free to use my folder as a template and fill it in with your own favorite sets.

The list I made for NU had a lot of typos (duplicate folders, missing ev's, missing/wrong natures, duplicate moves, etc), so if you notice something like that I'd appreciate that you let me know on my wall here on Smogon. I would also appreciate tips on any sets I'm missing because it's a resource I made mainly for my own use. It's not a good idea to make any suggestions in this thread, though, or you'll flood the thread with a lot of off-topic discussion.

Oh, and it's important to note that coverage options and secondary items (think Dazzling Gleam over HP Ice on Koko or a Z Crystal over Sash on Pheromosa) aren't cause for a new slot in a team. This is meant to be a quick way of copying and referencing sets, so it's more efficient to just make minor changes to sets after pasting them into your team.

Hope you guys find it useful :)
 

Tuthur

Haha CEO
is a Site Content Manageris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Top Smogon Media Contributor
Garchomp is actually not a check at all: 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Play Rough vs. 240 HP / 176+ Def Garchomp: 440-522 (105.5 - 125.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Landorus-Therian is a check to none ice punch set: -1 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Landorus-Therian: 328-388 (85.8 - 101.5%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and can't come 2 times on mawile: -1 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Landorus-Therian: 148-175 (38.7 - 45.8%) -- 16% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Heatran is a check to none brick break / focus punch set: 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Brick Break vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 294-348 (76.1 - 90.1%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Heatran: 426-502 (110.3 - 130%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I think mega mawile is suspect worthy.
 
Garchomp is actually not a check at all: 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Play Rough vs. 240 HP / 176+ Def Garchomp: 440-522 (105.5 - 125.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Landorus-Therian is a check to none ice punch set: -1 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Landorus-Therian: 328-388 (85.8 - 101.5%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and can't come 2 times on mawile: -1 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Landorus-Therian: 148-175 (38.7 - 45.8%) -- 16% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Heatran is a check to none brick break / focus punch set: 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Brick Break vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 294-348 (76.1 - 90.1%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Heatran: 426-502 (110.3 - 130%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I think mega mawile is suspect worthy.
These are literally all checks, you're thinking of a counter. Chomp doesn't counter mawile, true, because it can't switch in, but pretty much any set can revenge it, thus, its a check.
 
Hey guys, I know this is slightly off-topic, but I put together a resource that I think other people could make good use of.

http://pastebin.com/spEtvevT

It's a folder that you copy into your teambuilder. It has all of the ou viable pokemon (taken from VR) listed and categorized by sets for ease of access during teambuilding. I made a similar one for oras nu near the end of the gen and it helped a lot for remembering sets, and pasting stuff together quickly. The NU one I made had some really obscure and strange sets because I made the list with the mindset of "I'm going to include everything that I could see myself using" but for this list I'm posting in OU, I think it's safer to just post a list of sets that have been proven to work. Feel free to use my folder as a template and fill it in with your own favorite sets.

The list I made for NU had a lot of typos (duplicate folders, missing ev's, missing/wrong natures, duplicate moves, etc), so if you notice something like that I'd appreciate that you let me know on my wall here on Smogon. I would also appreciate tips on any sets I'm missing because it's a resource I made mainly for my own use. It's not a good idea to make any suggestions in this thread, though, or you'll flood the thread with a lot of off-topic discussion.

Oh, and it's important to note that coverage options and secondary items (think Dazzling Gleam over HP Ice on Koko or a Z Crystal over Sash on Pheromosa) aren't cause for a new slot in a team. This is meant to be a quick way of copying and referencing sets, so it's more efficient to just make minor changes to sets after pasting them into your team.

Hope you guys find it useful :)
This is extremely useful for me, I'm glad you made it! It helps to have a visual list for threats and sets to run. Also, I don't always know what EV's are being run on some of the newer sets, otherwise I would probably guess wrong lol.
 

Leo

after hours
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
MPL Champion
Garchomp is actually not a check at all: 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Play Rough vs. 240 HP / 176+ Def Garchomp: 440-522 (105.5 - 125.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Landorus-Therian is a check to none ice punch set: -1 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Landorus-Therian: 328-388 (85.8 - 101.5%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and can't come 2 times on mawile: -1 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Landorus-Therian: 148-175 (38.7 - 45.8%) -- 16% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Heatran is a check to none brick break / focus punch set: 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Brick Break vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 294-348 (76.1 - 90.1%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Heatran: 426-502 (110.3 - 130%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I think mega mawile is suspect worthy.
Check doesn't mean switchin lol, anything faster that ohkos it is a check by definition. There are a few counters tho, which is your point I suppose. On the topic, I don't think Maw is sus worthy at all (and neither is Meta btw) I think people are giving it too much credit. Yeah, it has like 2 switchins but it's slow speed+reliance on the nerfed Sucker Punch hold it back. For once, anything faster can potentially dent it and put it in range of other priority (Meta's Bullet Punch, Greninja's Shuriken etc) when its only move to hit them is non-Stab potentially +2 Sucker Punch. While this is still a very strong move and can kill frail attackers, it fails to get ohkos on a bunch of mons at the cost of your Mawile. Mons like defensive Lando-T, Coil Zygarde, Tapu Koko, Tapu Bulu etc can all eat it and retaliate back. There's also the presence of Lele which invalidates priority and turns Mawile into another slow extremely strong breakers easy to take advantage of. I'm not trying ti discredit Mawile because it's a very scary threat with good coverage, but I'm trying to prove my point of it not being banworthy
 
Garchomp is actually not a check at all: 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Play Rough vs. 240 HP / 176+ Def Garchomp: 440-522 (105.5 - 125.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Landorus-Therian is a check to none ice punch set: -1 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Landorus-Therian: 328-388 (85.8 - 101.5%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and can't come 2 times on mawile: -1 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Landorus-Therian: 148-175 (38.7 - 45.8%) -- 16% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Heatran is a check to none brick break / focus punch set: 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Brick Break vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 294-348 (76.1 - 90.1%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Heatran: 426-502 (110.3 - 130%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I think mega mawile is suspect worthy.
The TankChomp don't take care of her very well, but the offensive one do. EQ have a very good chance to OHKO the AoA set, that runs 160 HP EV's, and if it don't die, the Rough Skin recoil kill it. In Addiction, offensive Chomp has a good chance to survive a +2 SP after rocks, just like Magnezone, Tapu Koko, Keldeo, Greninja and Heatran do too. The only weapon that MMawile has against fast mons is SP.
And who gives a slot to Ice Punch, if Lando-T dies to +1 Play Rough already?


+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Garchomp: 300-353 (84 - 98.8%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 160 HP / 0 Def Mawile-Mega: 270-320 (96 - 113.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 112 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 255-301 (82.5 - 97.4%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 160 HP / 0 SpD Mawile-Mega: 253-298 (90 - 106%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Keldeo: 156-184 (48.2 - 56.9%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 160 HP / 0 SpD Mawile-Mega: 280-330 (99.6 - 117.4%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 274-323 (70.9 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Heatran Flamethrower vs. 160 HP / 0 SpD Mawile-Mega: 254-302 (90.3 - 107.4%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Water Shuriken (20 BP) (3 hits) vs. 160 HP / 0 SpD Mawile-Mega: 174-210 (61.9 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. +1 240 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 164-193 (39.3 - 46.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 0 Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 160 HP / 0 Def Mawile-Mega: 240-284 (85.4 - 101%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+1 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Landorus-Therian: 172-203 (45 - 53.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

0 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 160 HP / 0 Def Mawile-Mega: 246-290 (87.5 - 103.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Zapdos: 232-274 (60.5 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Zapdos Heat Wave vs. 160 HP / 0 SpD Mawile-Mega: 172-204 (61.2 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

so yeah, M Mawile has a plenty of checks in OU
 
Last edited:
The TankChomp don't take care of her very well, but the offensive one do. EQ have a very good chance to OHKO the AoA set, that runs 160 HP EV's, and if it don't die, the Rough Skin recoil kill it. In Addiction, offensive Chomp has a good chance to survive a +2 SP after rocks, just like Magnezone, Tapu Koko, Keldeo, Greninja and Heatran do too. The only weapon that MMawile has against fast mons is SP.
And who gives a slot to Ice Punch, if Lando-T dies to +1 Play Rough already?


+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Garchomp: 300-353 (84 - 98.8%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 160 HP / 0 Def Mawile-Mega: 270-320 (96 - 113.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 112 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 255-301 (82.5 - 97.4%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 160 HP / 0 SpD Mawile-Mega: 253-298 (90 - 106%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Keldeo: 156-184 (48.2 - 56.9%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 160 HP / 0 SpD Mawile-Mega: 280-330 (99.6 - 117.4%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 274-323 (70.9 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Heatran Flamethrower vs. 160 HP / 0 SpD Mawile-Mega: 254-302 (90.3 - 107.4%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Water Shuriken (20 BP) (3 hits) vs. 160 HP / 0 SpD Mawile-Mega: 174-210 (61.9 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. +1 240 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 164-193 (39.3 - 46.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 0 Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 160 HP / 0 Def Mawile-Mega: 240-284 (85.4 - 101%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+1 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Landorus-Therian: 172-203 (45 - 53.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

0 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 160 HP / 0 Def Mawile-Mega: 246-290 (87.5 - 103.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Zapdos: 232-274 (60.5 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Zapdos Heat Wave vs. 160 HP / 0 SpD Mawile-Mega: 172-204 (61.2 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

so yeah, M Mawile has a plenty of checks in OU
Little nitpick, Heatran never runs flamethrower. It'll either be magma, fire miss, or plume. But yeah the sucker nerf actually does come into play in the case of garchomp and heatran. What used to be solid rolls for +2 sucker OHKOs become very shaky rolls.

Ash ninja, zygod, and zapdos I wouldn't even call shaky checks.
For the zygarde calcs, either mmaw is at +2 or zygarde is at +1, there's no scenario in which both are true. And anyway, 0 atk zygarde can't KO maw, while maw will use play rough, not sucker, for the OHKO.
Ash ninja needs hydro to KO maw, and +2 sucker will kill it anyway with just a bit of chip.
Physdef zapdos is OHKO'd by +2 play rough.

There are plenty of things in OU that can outspeed and hit Maw for SE damage, which is why you don't stay in on these things in the early game, but if Maw saves it's SD and sucker spree for the late game when everything has some chip on it, as it should do, all of this is irrelevant anyway. Anything it wants to +2 sucker will have some chip, and anything it doesn't want to dies to +2 play rough, fire fang, or tpunch.
 
The OU metagame right now is trash in my opinion.Every team looks fcking same to me and this is one of the most centralized metas ever.We have pheromosa,greninja,gross and lando on every offensive team and they make their way onto quite a few amount of balance and BO teams as well.Then
we have toxapex and ferrothorn on every non HO team and 1-2 tapus on every team as well.The only other mons that are even remotely common are
zygarde,magearna,tangrowth and scizor.Idk how we can solve this problem but there are too many offensive threats to cover.I say we should start by suspecting
greninja/phero/gross cuz they are the main problem,especially greninja whose answers completely differ between its 2 forms and mosa which has too many sets which have different counters.​
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 1)

Top