Item Mega Stone bans: AKA "Soul Dew Clause" on steroids

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With the advent of Mega Evolutions, we find ourselves in an interesting scenario where each individual form change comes with a different item. Smogon has a precedent of banning certain items rather than pokemon to higher tiers: see Latios in OU but Soul Dew in Ubers.

This is not a thread suggesting or predicting tiers, but creating a proposition: that we tier Megas and Non-Megas separately, to allow pokemon such as Absol, who may be lower tier, to remain in lower tier while Absolite is banned to OU.

And, because there's no blanket Mega Stone item, it can be done case-by-case. Lucarionite may well be put in UU (haha yeah), while Gengarite finds a place in OU.

Food for thought.
 
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This is an interesting question. I assume that if a mega evolution is deemed broken that the whole pokemon would be banned, not the item. This would avoid a lot of confusion that might occur. I'm not sure if banning a specific item case by case is considered a complex ban but it would make it easier to tier pokemon. I find it similar to the argument: "Should blaze Blaziken be allowed in OU?"
 
This is easily answered....Rotom. There few mega (if any) you can say can stay in their own tiers. 2 i can think of are MegaPinsir and MegaManectric because while their stat boost help there isnt much after that. MPinsir is now flying so hes screwed by rocks even more and his ability would only make for the most OP GigaImpact....

But i will say things like Absol, Mawile, Aggron, and even the OU megas may find their new forms 1 or 2 tiers higher while their current forms (excluding Gardevior and Mawile) stay in their current tiers
 
Pretty sure Smogon was going to do this as it is, because in all reality Kangaskhan is RU material, (It should've never been NU IMO) and Mega Kangaskhan is OU Material.

Same thing goes for most others.
 
I would have thought that since they come into battle as regular Pokemon, and that Mega Evos are not forme changes in the same way that Rotom/Deoxys/Shaymin/Tornadus/whatever are, that the Pokemon would still be tiered as a whole (in the same way that in BW a Speed Boost Blaziken is indistinguishable from regular Blaziken, a Gengar holding Gengarite is still a Gengar when it appears in preview/when it first appears in battle). So based on this, if (hypothetically) Lucario with Lucarionite is broken, we ban Lucario.

That's based on what appears to be current Smogon policy, but given that Mega Evo is a new mechanic into of itself I would personally be okay with new precedent being set and banning/tiering the mega stones themselves. (I don't see it as comparable to Soul Dew really as that item affects more than one Pokemon)
 
this really depends on which pokemon and mega stones are the problem. if LO Blaziken is the issue then ban blaziken. if M-Mawile is the issue then ban the stone. if mawile is not an issue in uu but the mega form is, ban the stone to BL
 

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I can't speak for the tiering leaders, but I would guess that mega evolutions will be treated as items instead of Pokemon in tiering. ie. if a tier finds a certain mega evolution too much, they would ban the item from the tier instead of banning the Pokemon or the Mega Evolution-- just like Soul Dew ban from OU in the past.
 
Considering Megas are essentially different pokemon with different stats, abilities and typings, it does make sense to tier them separately. After all, we do the same for Rotom forms. Rotom-W and Rotom-H defeinitely aren't more different than Charizard and Mega Charizard X.
The difference is that you NEED to use the original mon in order to megavolve it, so this isn't an option since if the pokemon is used because the mega then the pokemon will be used alongside it, not istead of.
 
I can't speak for the tiering leaders, but I would guess that mega evolutions will be treated as items instead of Pokemon in tiering. ie. if a tier finds a certain mega evolution too much, they would ban the item from the tier instead of banning the Pokemon or the Mega Evolution-- just like Soul Dew ban from OU in the past.
That's what I thought. Otherwise you have potential situations like Gengar, Blaziken, and Lucario in UU which is just straight up terrifying.
 

Shurtugal

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Yeah MegaEvolved Pokemon are essentially different Pokemon -- their typing, base stats, and even goddamn ability are instantly changed.

Also, something to think about: Pokemon Amie can apparently make it possible to increase critical hit rate and casually avoid attacks and break out of status conditions. I feel this is uncompetitive and since I have not been playing the XY meta yet (since grounded) I do not know if it's implemented; only that it deserves higher priority if it IS being implemented.

EDIT: Thanks @LucaroakZ. I did not know this. Still standing that Mega Evolved Pokemon deserve to be treated as different Pokemon and should therefore permit an item ban IMO.
 

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Yeah MegaEvolved Pokemon are essentially different Pokemon -- their typing, base stats, and even goddamn ability are instantly changed.

Also, something to think about: Pokemon Amie can apparently make it possible to increase critical hit rate and casually avoid attacks and break out of status conditions. I feel this is competitive and since I have not been playing the XY meta yet (since grounded) I do not know if it's implemented; only that it deserves higher priority if it IS being implemented.
Pokemon-Amie boosts are not applied in Wifi battles iirc. Why would we make battles even less loyal to the cartridge mechanics for no real reason?
 
Considering Megas are essentially different pokemon with different stats, abilities and typings, it does make sense to tier them separately. After all, we do the same for Rotom forms. Rotom-W and Rotom-H defeinitely aren't more different than Charizard and Mega Charizard X.
There's one problem with tiering them seperately, and that's the fact that they only change forms in battle. Meloetta and Meloetta-P have always existed in the same tier because there's no way to bring Meloetta-P into battle. If Meloetta-P were deemed to be broken, then you could always ban Relic Song. However, if Meloetta were broken while Meloetta-P was determined to be balanced, then the only way you could allow Meloetta-P in the lower tier is if you forced Meloetta to have Relic Song in its Movepool AND forced it to use Relic Song as soon as it came in.

The same would have to happen with Mega Pokemon. If the Mega itself were fine but the base Pokemon were broken, then we would have to require the Pokemon to hold its Mega Stone AND require it to Mega Evolve as soon as it came in.

Now if a Mega Pokemon is broken but the base Pokemon isn't, then we can always ban the specific item, rather than banning the Pokemon outright, just like Soul Dew.

However, if, say, Pinsir is only OU due to usage only because its of its new Mega Form, then Pinsir itself would have to be considered OU (and not be allowed in UU), despite the fact that you only ever see Pinsir holding Pinsirite in OU.
 
That's what I thought. Otherwise you have potential situations like Gengar, Blaziken, and Lucario in UU which is just straight up terrifying.
BL exists for just this reason, I wouldn't worry about that.

As per the Blaze Blaziken issue, while I'd love to use Blaziken in lower tiers, it's a matter of complex bans: you can't ban Speed Boost when it only makes one pokemon too broken for OU. Again, thankfully, there's no such blanket item for Mega Evolution, and each item can (hopefully) be banned on case-by-case scenarios.
 
It all depends on the classification. The best comparison to the idea of viewing them as separate forms is Giratina-O, which could have been considered simply a set of Giratina, but instead it's considered a separate Pokemon locked to holding Griseous Orb. By this token, it's possible that any Absol holding Absolite could be classified as Mega Absol, a different form, which could be tiered entirely separately. This would mean that no matter how much Mega Absol might be used in the upper tiers, it wouldn't keep regular Absol out of the lower ones.

It could be a stretch, however, as the Mega Evolution doesn't change the form at the beginning of the battle, but instead is activated at will afterward. This would get especially weird for any abandoned Megas. If regular Gyarados is still used enough to make OU, but Mega Gyarados is completely overlooked in favor of it, then if "Gyarados holding Gyaradosite" is classified as its own form, it could mean that "form" would drop to UU. If people favor Gyarados's Flying typing and Intimidate that much, they could even end up using it in UU locked to Gyaradosite just because it's required to hold Gyaradosite to exist in that tier, never even bothering to Mega Evolve it. (No idea whether there would be any merit in keeping it as regular Gyarados if it's already given up the item slot, but let's speak hypothetically here.) This, I think we all can assume, would not be something Smogon would go for.

It's possible that we could see a more complex midway solution. For example, the Mega Evolution could be considered a separate form, but listed in the same tier as the original Pokemon by default, and only changed in tier if usage or brokenness of the Mega Evolution specifically would elevate it to a higher tier one way or the other. This is possible, but Smogon's tendency to seek simple bans means it's unlikely.

In the event that we don't see this complex middle ground solution, I would assume the items would just be treated like items like Soul Dew, and banned if they create a broken effect on the only Pokemon they're available to, but otherwise left as an option. This would mean that Pokemon like Kangaskhan, Banette, and Absol could disappear from the lower tiers, but it wouldn't be too different from Drizzle Politoed keeping non-Drizzle Politoed unavailable to the lower tiers in Gen 5 or Sticky Web Galvantula likely keeping non-Sticky Web Galvantula out of the lower tiers in Gen 6. When a Pokemon gets a better option that elevates them in tiers, we don't need to keep their original version available as an option in lower tiers; that would get ridiculous. Mega Evolution could be a special case, but does it need to be? I don't think it does.
 
Mega Evolutions are very different than simply holding a soul-dew. A more accurate description would be how Giratina changes form if holding its orb, we have normal Giritina and Giritina-O.
With these new Megas, they have drastically different stats, different abilities and sometimes different typing. To sum it up, they are different pokemon, and as such should be treated as different pokemon.
 

Manaphy

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Mega Evolutions are very different than simply holding a soul-dew. A more accurate description would be how Giratina changes form if holding its orb, we have normal Giritina and Giritina-O.
With these new Megas, they have drastically different stats, different abilities and sometimes different typing. To sum it up, they are different pokemon, and as such should be treated as different pokemon.
Except they actually have to transform in-battle. This is huge.

I do think however, that banning Mega Evolution stones is a simple way to prevent any overpowered Megas from being used.
 
I think that the mega stones should be able to be banned, but don't consider the two forms separate Pokemon. The Pokemon always has to enter battle as its regular form. You can't have the mega without the Pokemon, in this case.

Say that Smogon decides to ban Mega Gengar. Gengarite goes to Uber, Gengar should stay OU. If you're using Mega Gengar in ubers you need to use Gengar but that's okay, there's nothing wrong with using a lower-tiered mon.

Another example: say that Gardevoir falls to UU because no one is using it in OU; however Mega Gardevoir is too powerful there. Ban the stone to BL. Gardevoir can still be used in UU, and Mega Gardevoir can be used in OU.

Final example: Heracross is UU, but no one ever uses its mega evolution. Nothing happens. It's simply an alternative but inferior set.
 
I'm pretty sure that the de facto rule is if a MEvo is considered broken in Tier B the mega stone will be banished to the next higher tier, for example tier A.

At the same time a MEvo cannot exist in a tier below it's base form.
 

ryan

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The difference between tiering Mega Evolutions and Rotom formes is that Rotom continues to exist as an alternate forme, even outside of battle. Mega Evolutions, on the other hand, are just a branch off of the original Pokemon. You must use the original Pokemon in order to gets its mega forme. On top of that, you can't base the usage of the Mega Evolution off of the percentage of the Pokemon holding its mega stone, as you aren't required to mega evolve the Pokemon in battle (and in situations of having more than one megamon on the same team, you can't). As far as I know, Mega Evolutions will be tiered alongside the original Pokemon, meaning that if Banette ends up UU because of its Mega Evolution, you still can't use regular Banette in lower tiers. When it comes to banning, I'm not sure what the policy is at the moment, but I believe that the stones themselves will be banned if it's the Pokemon's mega forme that makes it broken. I could be remembering that incorrectly though, so don't quote me on it.
 

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Pokemon tiering has always been based on usage. If Absol sees OU usage, Absol would be classified as OU whether or not it sees most play in its mega form. The only time you'll see a scenario where Mega Absol is OU and Absol is UU is when the following happens:
  1. Absol's usage drops to UU
  2. Absolite gets banned in UU b/c Mega Absol is OP in the tier
 
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It's possible that we could see a more complex midway solution. For example, the Mega Evolution could be considered a separate form, but listed in the same tier as the original Pokemon by default, and only changed in tier if usage or brokenness of the Mega Evolution specifically would elevate it to a higher tier one way or the other. This is possible, but Smogon's tendency to seek simple bans means it's unlikely.
I don't find that solution terribly complicated myself; while I disagree with the point you get to, you're clearly good at thinking and I enjoy that tremendously on the internet.
 
I am of the opinion we should start the new metagame with all mega stones being OU and the let the player useage determine if they are suspect worthy/OU/lower tier ir same as thier base form afterwards.
 
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