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Metagame Mega Evolution in Sun & Moon
- Thread starter Halcyon.
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While Ghost is a great offensive typing in this meta and Banette has a fantastic attack stat to back it up, even with Prankster I can't see it being used as a wallbreaker when Mawile and Medicham exist and offer so much more power behind their attacks, and I can't see it being used as anything else because its speed and defenses are too mediocre. I think it'll make a bigger splash in UU, where it doesn't have to compete with most other offensive behemoth megas for a slot. I can't see it having much of an effect in OU. That said, I doubt it'll be banned from UU due to the many viable dark types in the tier as well as competition with Klefki for a prankster niche.Thoughts on where Mega Banette will end up?
I'm not sure when it will be released but I DO know with the instant prankster it's gonna be more popular this gen than gen 6.
That said, what do I know? Maybe the mega buff and lack of dark types to block Prankster will give it a sizable niche in the meta, because will o wisp makes it a useful check for every physical sweeper in the tier bar Mega Gyara, Mega Sharpedo, and Bisharp, none of which are particularly common or good right now. We'll see.
I have to say that Mega Banette now has, at least, a Prankster WoW on turn 1, with a better Spe tier than before and this is a pretty huge buff. The main problem I see with it is that in the OU environment there is still Greninja around (and I don't know why) with its powerful Dark STAB, alongside Hoopa-U as two major threats.
===> Mega Banette unranked for now in OU; maybe C- with lucky bans of Dark type monsters in the tier.
Oddly, a Mega evolution that is badly nerfed this generation is Mega Sableye which now:
(1) Can't use a Prankster status move on the turn it megaevolves. The "bulk" provided by WoW or Calm Mind was really necessary for its longevity and now this monster is pressured easily to click Recover;
(2) Can't affect Dark types with Prankster moves anymore. With the abundance of Fairies, though, this is a minor problem for now.
Mega Diance is easily S rank material in OU without doubts, because it receives two good buffs:
(1) Base 110 Spe upon megavolving because now you can force switches on turn one freeing a moveslot (Protect is no longer needed);
(2) Diamond Storm gives a +2 Def boost, thus making it more resilient towards priority moves, which are mainly physical;
If paired with Psychic Terrain this thing is going to be almost unstoppable.
===> Mega Banette unranked for now in OU; maybe C- with lucky bans of Dark type monsters in the tier.
Oddly, a Mega evolution that is badly nerfed this generation is Mega Sableye which now:
(1) Can't use a Prankster status move on the turn it megaevolves. The "bulk" provided by WoW or Calm Mind was really necessary for its longevity and now this monster is pressured easily to click Recover;
(2) Can't affect Dark types with Prankster moves anymore. With the abundance of Fairies, though, this is a minor problem for now.
Mega Diance is easily S rank material in OU without doubts, because it receives two good buffs:
(1) Base 110 Spe upon megavolving because now you can force switches on turn one freeing a moveslot (Protect is no longer needed);
(2) Diamond Storm gives a +2 Def boost, thus making it more resilient towards priority moves, which are mainly physical;
If paired with Psychic Terrain this thing is going to be almost unstoppable.
There's a third buff: Power Gem.
Diancie is no longer forced to go mixed (although it will likely still want to do so because Diamond Storm is too useful to not pick) and, alongside the Speed buff, is free to run Calm Mind/Power Gem/Moonblast/filler.
Earth Power should be the last move, or HP Fire, but Diamond Storm is too good for giving up. I believe that Mega Diancie will be in a super high viavility tier too.
I would run protect for the scout, as dropping protect would mean you would have to attack the first turn you mega evolve. This could be a bad thing since we do have some stealth rockers in the tier with steel STAB, such as Heatran, Ferrothorn, and skarmory in some cases.
Using Protect you you waste a valuable slot, just like with Beedrill.
But it also allows you to know if the opponent you are mega evolving against can OHKO you or not.
I personally think its worth it so Diancie could mega evolve at turn 1, but its up to you.
You generally already know if the opponent can OHKO you just by looking at its species.
It's not like Diancie is not weak to two very good offensive types and one of the most dominating types in the metagame right now. And also Grass.
Ground, Water, Steel and much less Grass are not often "surprise" move types.
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Diancie really wants that coverage. It should be used as a switch in to SR and Spikes rather than a hard stop, as Ferro, Gren, and Lando all can heavily damage it with their STABs. That said, it can win 1v1 against Ferro and Lando with the appropriate coverage.
Don't forget M-Diancie now gets 110 base Speed as it MegaEvolves, so against all the mons you provided, M-Diancie can simply gauge whether or not it can KO the opposing mon and act accordingly since it outspeeds them all:
248 SpA Diancie-Mega Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 432-512 (111.9 - 132.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
248 SpA Diancie-Mega Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 232-276 (65.9 - 78.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
248 SpA Diancie-Mega Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 204-242 (61 - 72.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(Yeah ok I used ORAS spread and it's probably not the most efficient one for SM, but my point still stands)
As we can see from the calcs above, Heatran's never gonna be a problem from M-Diancie (unless it's Scarfed, which won't have SR, so M-Diancie switches out) and neither are the other two, as Ferrothorn is most likely to have either Power Whip or Gyro Ball (or both), which OHKOes M-Diancie, meaning it'll switch out unless Ferrothorn is in KO range (same goes for Skarmory, which doesn't use Iron Head much these days as SpDef variants are almost non-existent, but once Diancite is released, could be seen more. But doesn't Celesteela make a better Fairy check than it? we'll see...).
However, if M-Diancie's favorable set would be physically based mixed (which I think will be the case), this would be the result against the same mons:
4 SpA Diancie-Mega Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 372-440 (96.3 - 113.9%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
4 SpA Diancie-Mega Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 204-240 (57.9 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Diancie-Mega Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 174-206 (52 - 61.6%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Diancie-Mega Diamond Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Skarmory: 144-169 (43.1 - 50.5%) -- 47.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Sure, the damage output is much lower compared to the special variant, but OHKOs remian OHKOs and 2HKOs remain 2HKOs. So, either way, the matchup against those threats stay pretty much the same regardless of M-Diancie's spread.
Also, after a Diamond Storm boost, this is what happens to M-Diancie if it doesn't KO SpDef Skarmory right away:
0 Atk Skarmory Iron Head vs. +2 0 HP / 0 Def Diancie-Mega: 132-160 (54.7 - 66.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (pretty impressive)
In ORAS, I used a spread with, if I am right, 32 EV in Atk, so I can OHKO Zapdos after Stealth Rock. The 252 Atk EV Diancie is just for the Chansey matchup, so far as I know. I think that some mixed EVs in Atk and Sp.Atk would be the better choice.
The thing is Zapdos from ORAS used less Def EVs than it does now in SM (252 / 172 compared to 248 / 240), so now it'll take much more investment to OHKO Zapdos after SR:
120 Atk Diancie-Mega Diamond Storm vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos: 288-338 (75.1 - 88.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
With that said, mixed investment in Atk and SpAtk, while intriguing, looks sub-par to max Atk (or even max SpAtk) as you can abuse Diamond Storm's buff while still getting most of the OHKOs/2HKOs it already had with max SpAtk (having a better match-up against stall is cool too). Only time will tell...
Oh and back in ORAS, M-Diancie actually needed only 20 Atk EVs to OHKO Zapdos after SR with the spread it used back then.
May I know what makes Diancie so impactful on the meta? As I don't really see how it will impact on the meta as of now.
160/160/110 is by no mean a bad attack spread. However, unlike most mega, it lacks the damage-boosting ability (and ofc no Life Orb). Therefore, its damage is more or less the same with non-mega pokemons with around 110 attack, which is not that impressive.
One of its niche is the high attack stats from both sides. Even so, most people will use SpA set. The only reason for using physical attack is Chansey, but even so, it fails to 2hko Chansey reliably with diamond storm. It probably has good coverage though, being one of the very few Fairy type with access to Ground move not named Hidden Power.
Defense wise, its defense stat is lackluster in my view. 50/110/110 seems high at first, but it's just slightly bulkier than 80/80/80 spread due to low hp.
The above is just my view and I may be wrong (well probably, seeing it being praised a lot). Hence, I'm not so sure about its impact and presence. Thanks for the insight in advance.
160/160/110 is by no mean a bad attack spread. However, unlike most mega, it lacks the damage-boosting ability (and ofc no Life Orb). Therefore, its damage is more or less the same with non-mega pokemons with around 110 attack, which is not that impressive.
One of its niche is the high attack stats from both sides. Even so, most people will use SpA set. The only reason for using physical attack is Chansey, but even so, it fails to 2hko Chansey reliably with diamond storm. It probably has good coverage though, being one of the very few Fairy type with access to Ground move not named Hidden Power.
Defense wise, its defense stat is lackluster in my view. 50/110/110 seems high at first, but it's just slightly bulkier than 80/80/80 spread due to low hp.
The above is just my view and I may be wrong (well probably, seeing it being praised a lot). Hence, I'm not so sure about its impact and presence. Thanks for the insight in advance.
It is coupled with high offensive stats and a useful ability in Magic Bounce. It's an offensively oriented support mega. Just because something is walled by Chansey doesn't mean it's not impactful.
With Psychic Terrain, Scizor is no longer a check for Mega Diancie. Huge Ass stats coupled with wide coverage allows it to flourish in OU.
Diancie's offenses are the same as a Pokemon with 111/118 (invested and uninvested, respectively) offensive stats AND a Life Orb equipped, which while nothing spectacular, it's pretty high - and outside of Kyurem-B, there's not much that can hit fairly hard from both physical and special attacks.
And besides, damage output is not everything on an offensive mega - Magic Bounce is a fantastic ability and it's the only viable offensive Pokemon with that ability (Mega Absol doesn't count as it can't even switch into status move users due to terrible defenses).
(As another example on how damage output isn't everything - Mega Lopunny has a lower effective Attack stat than Life Orb Mimikyu, and that did not exactly stop it from working last gen)
I believe Mega Diancie will have a pretty enormous impact on the meta. While certainly less offensively inclined than other megas, it's still quite fast and powerful. It's selling point, however, is magic bounce. Hazard control is absolute trash these days, and having a viable offensive magic bouncer will be an enormous help. I personally can't wait until we have decent hazard control again and Mega Diancie will be a huge step in the right direction.
I think it'll pair well with wincons weak to hazards - Volcarona in particular - and a calm mind set should make for a decent wincon in its own right (especially if you can manage a diamond storm boost). Its 4x weakness to steel will really hurt its viability though, in this meta infested with steels. While it has earth power to revenge kill it pretty much can't switch in to any of them. It's my belief that it'll make Ferrothorn even better than it already is, since Diancie can't reliably switch in on it to deter hazards due to gyro ball. My guess is Diancie ends up in A/A-.
I think it'll pair well with wincons weak to hazards - Volcarona in particular - and a calm mind set should make for a decent wincon in its own right (especially if you can manage a diamond storm boost). Its 4x weakness to steel will really hurt its viability though, in this meta infested with steels. While it has earth power to revenge kill it pretty much can't switch in to any of them. It's my belief that it'll make Ferrothorn even better than it already is, since Diancie can't reliably switch in on it to deter hazards due to gyro ball. My guess is Diancie ends up in A/A-.
I think Diancie will end up retaining it's A+ rank from ORAS. I'm not going to go into why Diancie is so great, but I will touch on it's buffs. First thing is the Mega buff. Not running protect is simply amazing. It can now utilize all for moveslots, allowing it to run 2 coverage moves or dangerous set up in Rock Polish and Calm Mind that it wasn't able to use viably last gen. It can now also use a Stealth Rock 3 Attack set if needed as well as some other possible options such as Sub, Explosion, Heal Bell or even Magnet Rise. The second thing as access to Power Gem. Diamond Storm is a great move, letting it take on stuff like Chansey and Celesteela pretty effectively and hitting more specially bulky stuff harder in general. I think Diamond Storm will still be the norm on Diancie except for one set which I think may now be the most deadly set of them all: Calm Mind. Calm Mind with 2 special STAB moves will be very deadly, especially when backed up by HP Fire.
I was literally just writing a post to say the same thing; offense is really strapped for hazard control right now, so MDiancie will fill that role nicely since it doesn't suck up momentum the way most Defoggers do. I think as with other defensive/support Megas, its biggest hurdle is going to be teambuilding around it without Gross/Medi/Mawile/etc, but I think the sheer utility of Magic Bounce and the fact that it can still provide hazard control while running a purely offensive set (with added coverage now thanks to the Mega buff freeing up the moveslot formerly dedicated to Protect) will make it easier to justify vs something like MVenu.
I mean it's obviously not the same meta but with the exception of Gren those were all around in ORAS OU and that didn't stop MDiancie from ending the gen at the top of A+.
That still doesn't make it reliable hazard control, you should never switch your Diancie into any rocker because pretty much all of them beat it. Having a Diancie on your team is still having 0 hazard control unless you're willing to switch it into EQs/Gyro Ball/Hydro Pump for no reason
Since it looks like there is no problem on speculating about unreleased megas, what are averyone thougths on Mega Manetric?
Offensively, looks like a better Zapdos, but without recovery and much less bulk, in exchange of massive SpAtk adn Speed, better Fire coverage, ability to run both TBolt and Volt Switch, and intimidate (lets not forget Ligthning rod pre mega, and the instant boost after mega evolving)
Offensively, looks like a better Zapdos, but without recovery and much less bulk, in exchange of massive SpAtk adn Speed, better Fire coverage, ability to run both TBolt and Volt Switch, and intimidate (lets not forget Ligthning rod pre mega, and the instant boost after mega evolving)
Marigold
formerly KuraiTenshi26
From what we've seen in the meta and as a koko fanboy, fast electrics have a great place in this meta. Tapu koko applies great pressure on offensive and defensive teams with its great combination of stallbreaking, wallbreaking, and fast pivoting. Zapdos finds use with obnoxious coverage and recovery. Now what if we trade recovery and stallbreaking for more speed and power...Since it looks like there is no problem on speculating about unreleased megas, what are averyone thougths on Mega Manetric?
Offensively, looks like a better Zapdos, but without recovery and much less bulk, in exchange of massive SpAtk adn Speed, better Fire coverage, ability to run both TBolt and Volt Switch, and intimidate (lets not forget Ligthning rod pre mega, and the instant boost after mega evolving)
You get this thing, the bane of offense. I think that manectric will make a fine offensive pivot, with the niche of being an electric able to muscle through checks like tangrowth and ferrothorn. Overheat straight up ohko's the latter, and...
252 SpA Manectric-Mega Overheat vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 270-318 (89.7 - 105.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
"But what about av tangrowth with earthquake?"
Tangrowth can eat poop. Intimidate is a thing of beauty.
-1 0 Atk Tangrowth Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manectric-Mega: 116-138 (41.2 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
I'm personally looking forward to and fearing intimidate volt-turn. Z-fly lando-t also compliments manectric perfectly, as z-fly lando gets walled by cele/skarm and manectric gets checked by grasses and marowak-a. How convenient that they kill each other's answers.
I, for one, welcome our doggo overlords.
Diancie does struggle with many hazard removers, admittedly. That said her presence on your team allows you to play mind games with your opponent, which is a form of pressure all it's own. It's very prediction reliant though, which is why I don't think it'll rise higher than A at the most. A- is probably better. It's significantly better than NO hazard control, but it's far worse than reliable hazard control. Still a good option these days, but shame it doesn't have better defensive typing. I almost wonder if bulky variants won't be more common for these reasons.
Mega manectric is interesting. I think it's largely outclassed by Tapu Koko (though OHKOing megagross over half the time IS compelling). That said, an argument for manectrics viability is actually the PRESENCE of tapu koko, as I see koko being a tremendous partner for mega manectric (an electric spam, similar to how megazam and lele could form a psychic spam). Calcs for manectric under terrain are probably ridiculous.
Mega manectric is interesting. I think it's largely outclassed by Tapu Koko (though OHKOing megagross over half the time IS compelling). That said, an argument for manectrics viability is actually the PRESENCE of tapu koko, as I see koko being a tremendous partner for mega manectric (an electric spam, similar to how megazam and lele could form a psychic spam). Calcs for manectric under terrain are probably ridiculous.
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