Magic Bounce

[Charlemagne]

BP is a level up move from Eevee, not an Egg Move.

Oh, I think I see the problem. :\ Crud.

good theory though, be a pity if we can't, but even then, we can just switch out, so we loose 25%, so what, I get to set up my SD Speed boost blaziken

Agreed. The sub would probably be smashed anyway, (though it would be a good insurance policy against DD/SD) before or after the BP.

 

[Pyritie]

BP is a level up move from Eevee, not an Egg Move.

Oh, I think I see the problem. :\ Crud.

Why, what's the problem?

We aren't sure if an ability #3 eevee will evolve into an ability #3 espeon but I don't see any reason why it shouldn't.

 

[Charlemagne]

Now that I think of it... Hell yeah, it should. Anything else would be nonsense.

I'm still worried, though, as we're dealing with gamefreak.

 

[moogleking]

Your calculation is a bit off. BTW I used Libelldra calculator to calculate. If you use Smogon - damage on it goes off really often, so watch out . And this is what I have:

Max SpA Timid Life Orb Signal Beam Espeon vs 4 HP Tyranitar (counting Sandstorm boost)

35.15% --> 41.58%

No chance in hell for 2OHKO, maybe with SR + 3 set of spikes. And I don't think any good player will allow to put so many spikes. Against defensive Tyranitar it looks even more sad.

Max SpA Timid Life Orb HP Fighting Espeon vs 4 HP Tyranitar (with Sandstorm boost)

66.34% --> 78.22%%

Ok, this one is solid enough. Clear 2OHKO, even without entry hazards. However if Tyranitar switches on Psychic or it just uses Choice Scarf, you still loose. So really, I wouldn't recommend it. And if you don't use HP Fire - Scizor eats you for breakfast, it looks the same with Pursuit Metagross, so choice is hard here.

Ah, I didn't know Smogons Damage Calculator was crap :P My bad! Still a OHKO with HP Fighting + some spikes (although I guess a lot of things can say that!)


EDIT: Ran a few more Calcs-
Grass Knot from Max Sp.Atk Espeon + Life Orb vs Tyranitar 58% - 68% (Guarenteed 2HKO)
Grass Knot from Max Sp.Atk Espeon + Life Orb and +1 Special Attack (CM) vs Tyranitar 90% - OHKO (1 layer of Spikes)
Hidden Power Fire from Max Sp.Atk Espeon + Life Orb vs Max HP Scizor OHKO (Even in Rain)
Hidden Power Fighting from Max Sp.Atk Espeon + Life Orb vs Max HP Scizor 39% - 46% (Potential 2HKO with hazards)

So not too bad overall :D

 

[TwilightWings]

And GameFreak likes to troll us xD

Also do you all know a reliable place to do damage calculations? I want to do it for the modest espeon versus her counters since no one else has yet.

 

[MapleSandwich]

So what the hell happens if two Magic Mirror Pokemon use moves against each other? From the way the OP sounds, the MM targeted by a Status move uses the move itself against the opponent, so wouldn't that trigger the opposing Magic Mirror?

 

[Shimrit As]

Does Justice Heart activate from behind a sub? If it does then Espeon has immense potential - opponents cant Taunt it or try and status it which aids its BP strategy, and if a Tyranitar or something does come out and tries to crunch the receiver (Kobaruan or Terakion or something) will benefit from the attack boost.

 

[Pyritie]

Does Justice Heart activate from behind a sub? If it does then Espeon has immense potential - opponents cant Taunt it or try and status it which aids its BP strategy, and if a Tyranitar or something does come out and tries to crunch the receiver (Kobaruan or Terakion or something) will benefit from the attack boost.

Do things like motor drive and water absorb work from behind a substitute?

If they do, I don't see why justice heart would be any different.

 

[Charlemagne]

According to my Calcs, Modest Max SpAtk LO Espeon's HP Fighting does 96%-113% to T-Tar; a 76% OHKO Chance. I still feel like we're better off subbing and running away.

Does Justice Heart activate from behind a sub? If it does then Espeon has immense potential - opponents cant Taunt it or try and status it which aids its BP strategy, and if a Tyranitar or something does come out and tries to crunch the receiver (Kobaruan or Terakion or something) will benefit from the attack boost.

Motor Drive and Volt Absorb do, so it likely will. Tyranitar would be so screwed.

 

[Pyritie]

According to my Calcs, Modest Max SpAtk LO Espeon's HP Fighting does 96%-113% to T-Tar

Which T-Tar? max HP/SpD? or 0/0? Neutral nature or helpful?

 

[TwilightWings]

Charlemagne, you are the first person I've ever met who would run when you got the advantage clearly in your hands. Unless it's scarfed you fit first and most likely you are behind a sub. I'd go for it.

Also, why isn't there an espeon thread?

 

[Charlemagne]

Which T-Tar? max HP/SpD? or 0/0? Neutral nature or helpful?

0/0 Neutral.

I just noticed that if SR isn't up, Jolly T-Tar doesn't OHKO min HP Espeon with an unboosted Pursuit. Even if it is up, Jolly T-Tar can't OHKO, missing by 1 HP (Sandstorm, of course will finish you, but notable nonetheless.) Adamant Scizor will, however, OHKO. Ironic.

Charlemagne, you are the first person I've ever met who would run when you got the advantage clearly in your hands. Unless it's scarfed you fit first and most likely you are behind a sub. I'd go for it.

Also, why isn't there an espeon thread?

It's not that I'm a coward, it's that I'd rather bring a sweeper in unscathed to set up. If Espeon can Sub and BP, Blaziken comes in with impunity. Besides, HP Fighting leaves you open to Scizor.

 

[TwilightWings]

That is quite wierd xD Guess adamant makes a bigger diffenece than we thought xD

 

[Psikid]

It seems perfectly reasonable to "feint" with one Pokémon as SR/Taunt/etc. bait and switch into Espeon to bounce it back. Now we just need to hope that DW Espeon gets Power Gem and we'll be golden. I'm just happy to see my favorite Pokémon get a well-deserved boost!

 

[Charlemagne]

It seems perfectly reasonable to "feint" with one Pokémon as SR/Taunt/etc. bait and switch into Espeon to bounce it back. Now we just need to hope that DW Espeon gets Power Gem and we'll be golden. I'm just happy to see my favorite Pokémon get a well-deserved boost!

I already said that. >:(

And yes, it's the best anti SR lead strategy imaginable. Espeon for President.

Why Power Gem? :/

 

[CRASHiC]

Ok, this one is solid enough. Clear 2OHKO, even without entry hazards. However if Tyranitar switches on Psychic or it just uses Choice Scarf, you still loose.

Then run a Sub set, ya know, Espeon's main set.

 

[Shimrit As]

And yes, it's the best anti SR lead strategy imaginable. Espeon for President.

Espeon will still get owned by Metagross, Forretress and Heatran since no one's forcing them to Stealth Rock first turn they can just hit you. Best would be to switch Espeon in on a predicted Stealth Rock/random move related to team strategy that would throw the opponent off balance. If you lead with Espeon it won't be that effective, anyway the SRer can just switch out all the time.

 

[Charlemagne]

Then run a Sub set, ya know, Espeon's main set.

Precisely the solution. Also, as I said, if TTar is Jolly (which it probably is if it's wearing a scarf), it can't OHKO Espeon with Pursuit.

People assume that because T-Tar can OHKO Gengar and Alakazam with a base power pursuit, it will work on Espeon. Espeon has (slightly) more HP than either of them, enough to ensure that it is never OHKO'd by Jolly Tyranitar's Pursuit, even after SR damage (Sandstorm will finish Espeon off, however.) That is something that certainly sets it apart.

Best would be to switch Espeon in on a predicted Stealth Rock/random move related to team strategy that would throw the opponent off balance. If you lead with Espeon it won't be that effective, anyway the SRer can just switch out all the time.

This is exactly what I said, and what the other guy said. Espeon anti-leads, without leading. Use a slower lead like Heatran that deals with the other guys, and keep Espeon on your belt for Aerodactyl and Azelf. And Roserade. And Blissey. You get the idea.

 

[Santa_Clauz]

I still vote for a Zoroark lead faking espeon, with the actual espeon there for late game.

 

[NDenizen]

Seems to be, rather than relying on reflecting Rocks back (though this is clearly the better move), you're better off sticking in something like Breloom or something that prompts the opponent to taunt you, switching to Espeon and bam, the opponent can't taunt you or stick hazards on you. This then gives you several options - Sub and pass, attack or just switch anyway. In the case your opponent doesn't switch out, Shadow Tag means it can't go undoing your reflection.

Of course, the better strategy is just to wait for SR and then essentially set your own hazards up without the need for the move itself. On a personal level i'd prefer this strategy, as I never use Stealth Rock and this would be a way of punishing the opponent to an extent.

 

[TwilightWings]

As I said earlier, people will start using bulkier leads that espeon an't two hit KO just to make sure espy doesn't rape their strategy. Suicide leads will be used a lot less often as well.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

It might not need to be in the lead position, since if it was there it'd have trouble with many common leads (Heatran, Metagross, etc.)

Its HP Ground would actually hit non-Shuca Heatran like a truck (actually, Shuca would take 65-76.8% from Timid max SAtk LO Espeon lol). Metagross and Azelf would still be bitches, though, with their Bullet Punches and U-Turns.

and would be an instant flag for a Pursuiter to come in.

Don't forget it has base 110 Speed Baton Pass!

Impossible. If that were true, the abilities wouldn't be possible to actually use in the game, and there would have been no way for them all to have been discovered.

The abilities could still be used ingame. Actually, if they want to, they could have given us a Pure Power Slaking by event in 4th Gen if they wanted to. But yes, we only know the Dream World abilities because they are programmed in-game (I think Game freak can still give us other abilities over the Dream World if they want to, though!).

 

[NDenizen]

As I said earlier, people will start using bulkier leads that espeon an't two hit KO just to make sure espy doesn't rape their strategy. Suicide leads will be used a lot less often as well.

Which in itself is fine, as that will set trends revolving around a pokemon, rather than just a move. Then again, Infernape and Azelf are not only rampant but pack Magic Coat, so eh.

 

[Thorhammer]

The abilities could still be used ingame. Actually, if they want to, they could have given us a Pure Power Slaking by event in 4th Gen if they wanted to. But yes, we only know the Dream World abilities because they are programmed in-game (I think Game freak can still give us other abilities over the Dream World if they want to, though!).

The Pokemon/ability combinations might not have to be programmed into the game, but the abilities themselves absolutely do.

Even then, I'm not convinced. In the coding for the game, Pokemon don't have a space where any ability can be listed. They have a space that can have a 1, 2, or now a 3. (Or however Dream abilities are handled.) For Slaking, those numbers all tell the game to give it Truant. As far as I know, there isn't any way it could have Pure Power.

 

[twc]

The Pokemon/ability combinations might not have to be programmed into the game, but the abilities themselves absolutely do.

Even then, I'm not convinced. In the coding for the game, Pokemon don't have a space where any ability can be listed. They have a space that can have a 1, 2, or now a 3. (Or however Dream abilities are handled.) For Slaking, those numbers all tell the game to give it Truant. As far as I know, there isn't any way it could have Pure Power.

This is incorrect. There is in fact a field in the Pokemon data that lists what ability it holds. It is entirely possible to change this, allowing any monster to have an arbitrary ability (e.g. WonderTomb). When a Pokemon evolves, this field is reset according to the divisibility of the PID to a value stored in the game ROM, associated with the new species.