Might not need it as a MEVO, though. Mega Lucario's not slow; 112 is pretty nice.
Agree with the CC > HJK overall, though it does have some use I suppose.
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Pokémon Lucario
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Agree with the CC > HJK overall, though it does have some use I suppose.
The power dropoff between Hi Jump Kick and Close Combat isn't large for neutral targets, and you'll certainly want Close Combat for Swords Dance set. For mixed sets, however, I'm just more comfortable with the numbers on HJK.
HJK on Garchomp: 75.6% - 89.1%
CC on Garchomp: 69.5% - 82.4%
HJK on Conkeldurr: 70.9% - 83.5%
CC on Conkeldurr: 65.1% - 77.2%
Aura Sphere with 252 EVs and a neutral nature does less than both, sadly.
On most neutral targets, it looks to be a 6-7% difference. Maybe I'm just greedy/more risk inclined, but despite Close Combat being much more reliable, I think HJK has its benefits, especially vs wall switch-ins.
HJK vs. Skarm: 43.7% - 52.1%
CC vs. Skarm: 40.7% - 47.9%
Do your own calcs. :)
HJK on Garchomp: 75.6% - 89.1%
CC on Garchomp: 69.5% - 82.4%
HJK on Conkeldurr: 70.9% - 83.5%
CC on Conkeldurr: 65.1% - 77.2%
Aura Sphere with 252 EVs and a neutral nature does less than both, sadly.
On most neutral targets, it looks to be a 6-7% difference. Maybe I'm just greedy/more risk inclined, but despite Close Combat being much more reliable, I think HJK has its benefits, especially vs wall switch-ins.
HJK vs. Skarm: 43.7% - 52.1%
CC vs. Skarm: 40.7% - 47.9%
Do your own calcs. :)
Potential to 2HKO Skarm is not a bad argument for HJK.
Mega lucario is without a doubt THE best sweeper in the entire game and probably will be for a long time. I've been playing it in a lando t and specially defensive rotom core and my god, half the time it doesn't even require a set up. With a jolly nature I swept countless standard teams from last gen. Tyranitar, Terrakion, Celebi, Latias, Garchomp, Rotom-W. The rotom and garchomp died to an UNBOOSTED CC. WHAT. He tried to switch Celebi in on a cc and nearly died. Only to die to a crunch... This has been happening all night. Originally I had togekiss in place of lando t, but he works a million times better.
No way.
Very good pokemon? Yes. Best sweeper without doubt? Hardly. Just because you can 6-0 teams below 2k rating that in no way accurately reflects how good the pokemon actually is. Above 2k people are running things that can check MegaLucario because he has horrible 4MSS. Every single MegaLucario build is walled by some popular OU pokemon (which doesn't make him bad at all, but it's a factor). Talonflame is everywhere at the moment and checks every MegaLucario build there is. Unboosted CC with Jolly doesn't OHK Bulky Garchomp ever, and it rarely OHK's standard Rotom-W, so why even use these as examples? Can't wait till Dec-Jan when hopefully people stop posting ridiculous absolutes/false examples.
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I'm terribly superstitious about High Jump Kick on Lucario, because he's already frail enough, even Mega Evolved. Missing that hit, losing health, and allowing the opponent to get a move in could cost you your Lucario. A possible 2HKO on Skarmory doesn't really mean so much that I would risk that when there are other ways to get around the metal bird.
Close Combat Luke for Life. If he's gonna go down he's going down fighting tooth and nail, not because the opponent side stepped his kick. With those calculations you gave SJCrew, he still would score a 2HKO on both Garchomp and Conkeldurr. Whether I would keep a Lucario in on a Garchomp or Conkeldurr is another story (spoiler, the answer is no).
Close Combat Luke for Life. If he's gonna go down he's going down fighting tooth and nail, not because the opponent side stepped his kick. With those calculations you gave SJCrew, he still would score a 2HKO on both Garchomp and Conkeldurr. Whether I would keep a Lucario in on a Garchomp or Conkeldurr is another story (spoiler, the answer is no).
I wonder if drain punch has a role for Mega Lucario. I used it in gen V to some extent with moderate success. It definitely helped get back up into range to take an extra hit, and that meant dealing massive damage one more time.
Its low base power is a little bit of a turnoff, but I wonder if the boosted stats from the mega will make up for it? Has anyone tried it out?
Its low base power is a little bit of a turnoff, but I wonder if the boosted stats from the mega will make up for it? Has anyone tried it out?
It makes for somewhat reliable recovery sure, but I think Conkeldurr and to a lesser extent Scrafty pull this strategy off so much better because of their stat distribution. They have the bulk to take hits and appreciate the recovery. Lucario is a delicate little steel butterfly that wins by being fast and high damage outputs, not tanking hits, so a low BP move like Drain Punch isn't going to do him many favors.
The team you beat: Tyranitar, Terrakion, Celebi, Garchomp, Rotom-W, Latias is highly susceptible to Mega Lucario or any strong physical attacker for that matter. You should have been able sweep this team with Lucario without issues. Nothing on that team can switch into Lucario let alone Mega Lucario and considering this is a Gen 5 team and its not even built to account for the new threats in Gen 6, you had the advantages there as well, so this isnt much of a feat.
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Anyway, I haven't posted in this thread in a while and since I wrote up the Lucario preview that will go up on site, I feel like I should input. I feel like I should throw up the sets that I found pretty good to merit a being on site. I'm only going to include only those that aren't the Swords Dance sets since everyone should be familiar with that one by now.
Nasty Plot
Lucario @ Lucarionite
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Aura Sphere / Vacuum Wave
- Dark Pulse
- Flash Cannon
- Nasty Plot
The reason this set I found to be really good is due to the high amount of people who switch in their Aegislash into Lucario as a way to check or counter by using King's Shield. Aura Sphere is prefered because of its power but if you are having issues with Sand Rush Excadrill Vacuum Wave can be used. I would almost set this is better than the SD set right now since everyone is obsessed with SD King's Shield and this set doesn't care for its 50/50 game at all.
Mixed Agility
<p>Lucario (F) @ Lucarionite
Trait: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 84 SpA / 172 Spe
Rash Nature
- Close Combat
- Hidden Power Ice
- Flash Cannon / Dark Pulse
- Agility
This set may seem a bit odd at first but its worked pretty well for me especially against weakened offensive team late game. Unlike the SD or NP this set isn't going to help you blow through defensive teams as you lack the power for that instead you shine against offensive teams. The EV spread allows you to out pace Jolly Sand Rush Excadrill and OHKO it with Close Combat. The leftover 84 are for boosting the Special Attack in the moveset. Hidden Power Ice for Landorus-T(Pokebank OU) and Gliscor while Flash Cannon is for coverage against Fairies or Dark Pulse for hitting Aegislash. Rash Nature is the better option of Mild cause you take less damage from Choice Banded Azumarill's Aqua Jet. The EVs can use some tweaking but that is what worked for me and it's staying this way until I find a better spread.
Try these out for yourselves and see what you think and you discuss them in the thread. I'll post these in the OP sometime tomorrow.
Ash Borer
I've heard they're short of room in hell
Is flash cannon the right move here? It's incapable of breakign through the more specially defensive fairies, such as a max HP togekiss, and specially defensive sylveon/florges, yet the more physically defensive, or mixed defensive ones such as azumarill and mawile are only hit neutrally with steel attacks. IRon tail may have atrocious accuracy, but i'd rather have a 75% chance of breaking through a defensive togekiss and sylveon than a zero percent chance. It is worth mentioning that flash cannon will OHKO togekiss after stealth rocks, though, unless it is fully specially defensive. Gengar has a decent chance to live the flash cannon, and mega gengar will 100% of the time from full strength, but iron tail flattens both of them. Cant think of any relevant fighting resists that flash cannon hit better than iron tail mostly, both moves such agaisnt gyarados, starmie, tentacruel, mega charizard, talonflame and neitehr are getting past mega venusaur. Espeon an survive a flash cannon and close combat, but gets demolished by iron tail.
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CloseCombat
Crunch
Ice Punch
BulletPunch/ExtremeSpeed
Swords Dance
You can only have 4 of those, and no matter what you pick he ends up having problems with something(s) that is currently OU. Lucario has long been one of the best definitions of 4MSS and he's never needed to answer more things than he does right now. I think that MegaLucario is going to be a better "wallbreaker" than sweeper this generation (and calling him a wallbreaker is generous, but I feel the most accurate description of his role this gen.)
I think that the Nasty Plot Lucario sets are more likely to be the premier sweeper sets on him because playing him as a Swords Dance sweeper just feels inferior.
Crunch
Ice Punch
BulletPunch/ExtremeSpeed
Swords Dance
You can only have 4 of those, and no matter what you pick he ends up having problems with something(s) that is currently OU. Lucario has long been one of the best definitions of 4MSS and he's never needed to answer more things than he does right now. I think that MegaLucario is going to be a better "wallbreaker" than sweeper this generation (and calling him a wallbreaker is generous, but I feel the most accurate description of his role this gen.)
I think that the Nasty Plot Lucario sets are more likely to be the premier sweeper sets on him because playing him as a Swords Dance sweeper just feels inferior.
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vs Florges
84+ SpA Adaptability Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD (custom): 192-228 (53.33 - 63.33%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
vs Sylveon
84+ SpA Adaptability Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD (custom): 220-260 (57.44 - 67.88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
vs Togekiss
84+ SpA Adaptability Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Togekiss: 236-280 (63.1 - 74.86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
vs Azumarill
84+ SpA Adaptability Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 216-256 (53.46 - 63.36%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I agree with that fact that Iron Tail out damages Flash Cannon in just about every situation but I honestly consider it a really bad option for Lucario. This is because Lucario isn't really a Pokemon that can afford to running inaccurate moves and losing its sweep since if it misses once its pretty over for it. I don't really think you should be risking high damage out put for more sweeping consistency.
A wallbreaker set with four moves does have some nice potential with CC, Ice Punch, Crunch, and Bullet Punch. However, Nasty Plot is no where near as good as Swords Dance on Lucario. It might surprise your opponent at first, but given that Lucario's special movepool isn't as strong BP wise as his physical, special based Lucario aren't going to pull their weight as much as physical ones. The Aura Sphere nerf and the nerf to Hidden Power really hurt his chances to shine on the special side of things.
Are you for real, why does that even matter?? If you need a Swords Dance to 2HK everything then that's nowhere near good enough, you are going to get killed before the second CC hits. What is happening between those 2 CC's, is your opponent asleep? They let you swords dance, and then they let you hit CC twice, without retaliating in-between? Why do you keep saying these types of statements? Guess what my Weedle 20hit kills everything. Which is pointless info, because it dies before getting off the 20 hits.
The recent XY smogcast also thinks that NP is the stronger set.
I'm just gonna stop replying to these both of these types of posts as clearly it's wasted. As much as Swords Dance Lucario wishes it was still gen 4, it is not. Nasty Plot MegaLuke now gets walled by less things than the SD sets do, and I think the best physical sets are going to be built/used in a more wallbreaker-y fashion.
I don't understand what you're getting at here. Are you looking for a pokemon that can One shot anything in the game with only 4 moves? Because that's what it sounds like. The purpose of the discussion of how Lucario can KO things using it's various sets is just that. To discuss how LUCARIO can do it. Not how others can do it better, that is a completely pointless thing to bring up in a discussion about what Lucario can or cannot do.
I'd like to point out that people don't switch into sweepers after they've set up. If they want to switch, they'll do it on the turn Lucario uses Swords Dance, not the turn after.
Ballofire was saying Lucario is the best sweeper in the game. That's what Ranevski was on about.
From my fairly extensive use of Lucario on the ladder I can say that at +2 the NP set is a lot more scary than the SD set. HOWEVER, the SD set hits far harder off the bat plus carries a much better priority than the NP set. Very often I find myself using Lucario simply like a Banded/LO Terrakion and just attempt to smash something hard, or use it to break down a defensive core on a stall team. Not having a sweep cut short by a Mega Gengar is also nice.
IMO Crunch/EQ has been far better for me than Ice punch since Lando-T and to a lesser extent Gliscor can be worn down over the course of switching in to take repeated hits. Getting forced out by Jellicent, Chandelure, Slowbro and Aegislash without being able to damage them just sucks.
IMO Crunch/EQ has been far better for me than Ice punch since Lando-T and to a lesser extent Gliscor can be worn down over the course of switching in to take repeated hits. Getting forced out by Jellicent, Chandelure, Slowbro and Aegislash without being able to damage them just sucks.
Guise, were sposed be frens. Stahp been meen.
Whole argument reminds me of the Charizard thread, arguing on which Mega is better. Neither is, because they do different things. You can't really compare an SD Luke to NP Luke because they have different strengths. NP or Mixed Luke is pure wallbreaker, SD Luke is a cleaner (unless you aren't running priority for whatever reason). Saying that SD Luke isn't killing absolutely everything is expecting too much from it, because it will be limited by its movepool, just as any other Pokemon.
That said, this discussion is supposed to be over. Lets drop it for now.
Moving on, is Vacuum Wave viable on NP sets now? It has the same base power as Bullet Punch and Extremespeed now, could it see any use as a lategame cleaning option?
Whole argument reminds me of the Charizard thread, arguing on which Mega is better. Neither is, because they do different things. You can't really compare an SD Luke to NP Luke because they have different strengths. NP or Mixed Luke is pure wallbreaker, SD Luke is a cleaner (unless you aren't running priority for whatever reason). Saying that SD Luke isn't killing absolutely everything is expecting too much from it, because it will be limited by its movepool, just as any other Pokemon.
That said, this discussion is supposed to be over. Lets drop it for now.
Moving on, is Vacuum Wave viable on NP sets now? It has the same base power as Bullet Punch and Extremespeed now, could it see any use as a lategame cleaning option?
haunter
Banned deucer.
Ok guys, stop with the ad hominem and try to start some constructive discussion. The argument of what's the better set between NP and SD Lucario is as old as the Pokémon itself. Bot the sets have their merits but, generally, SD Luke is preferred due to higher base power physical moves (close combat, HJK) to abuse AND extremespeed. That's not to say that NP Luke is useless or anything, it's just a matter of preference. Please move on and try to avoid absolutist statements, cause they usually only start useless and endless debates and often degenerates into flame wars. This is the last warning for some posters here, you know who I'm referring to.
I figure I'll chime in on this. My OU team basically revolves around setting up a lucario sweep. The best way in my experience is to encore a non-combat move with wobbuffet. If its toxic, lucario is immune. If its any other status, safeguard first. If it's a stat booster, who cares? Your opponent would have to be braindead to let you get off more than one swords dance. After the guarenteed one SD, you pretty much win assuming you have proper coverage and at least one or two layers of entry hazards up. (I find that custap skarmory works beautifully for this). Basically, you just need wobbuffet, lucario, a reliable setup for entry hazards, preferably a spinblocker, and two other Pokemon depending on your play style or which misc threats you find to be especially good at interfering with this strategy. Magic bouncers will shut you down hardcore, so be prepared for and anticipate that, and also Pokemon that are faster and resist extremespeed (e.g. Gengar)
hope that helps!
Asek
Banned deucer.
Vacuum wave has always been core on special lucario sets due to the fact that without it you got picked off by just about any revenge killer. This was the reason that special lucario was usually not played in favour of physical luke ; Espeed and stronger STAB's have always kept it in the limelight. Adaptability with vacuum wave does look very interesting though, and i can imagine special luke being a fair bit more viable this gen. In BW2 I felt that special luke was completly overshadowed by keldeo as a special fighting type but it looks like lukes got a lot more going for it this gen. However keep in mind that because it is a mega it will face competition from other megas for the teams mega slot, and normal lucario would still offer a very strong sd set. I don't think we've seen the last of the classic sd sweeper we've ben seeing for the last 2 gens.
Honestly, after messing with a NP Special sweeper set... it's just inferior to the raw damage output of Close Combat, especially a boosted one. Even resisted physical walls just get smashed by this guy at +2. The only thing I really forsee giving the physical set in the OP trouble is going to be Jellicent unless you're running Crunch.
Crunch has been a better option over IP/ES for me so far in most games.
Lucario can learn Mixed why isn't anybody taking that into account?
Dark Pulse / Flash Cannon / Close Combat / Extreme Speed
And also Power-Up Punch could be a solid replacement for Swords Dance because with Adaptability, PuP has 80 BP and can do a lot
Dark Pulse / Flash Cannon / Close Combat / Extreme Speed
And also Power-Up Punch could be a solid replacement for Swords Dance because with Adaptability, PuP has 80 BP and can do a lot
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