Lucario (GP 1/2)

[Agent Gibbs]

SD Mega Lucario has a good chance at beating physically defensive Zapdos by hitting it with a +2 Crunch, surviving the Heat Wave, and following up with a +2 Close Combat. Ice Punch will also almost always OHKO after Stealth Rock. This Zapdos set similarly loses to NP Mega Lucario since +2 Aura Sphere easily 2HKOs and Mega Lucario survives the Heat Wave. Specially defensive Zapdos still loses to SD Mega Lucario, but it can at least shut down NP Mega Lucario with incredible ease, so it's the only one of the two variants that can actually hard counter either Mega Lucario set. Not to mention that specially defensive Zapdos is just better in this metagame anyway since it takes on Pokemon such as mixed Aegislash and Sheer Force Landorus-I so well in addition to NP Mega Lucario.

I'm not really sure why this is being argued about, though. It's not like Subject 18 is just going to toss the word "Zapdos" into the Checks and Counters section and leave it at that. If only certain Zapdos sets counter certain Lucario sets, this will be clarified in the write-up.

 

[G Royal]

yet defensive bulky zapdos also takes on aegislash.... plus both SD/NP Lucario if it's equipped with a LO like I mentioned, so no mega luke cannot easily get around zapdos, and what exactly does sheer force lando-i do to zapdos? Since Psychic, Focus Miss etc don't even come close to a good guaranteed 2hko, zapdos can counter and ohko with a LO HP Ice if SR is off the field, or it can check it with a HP Ice if SR is up.... Running LO on a bulky set isn't a terrible idea, especially since it guarantee's the same counters + more. But now we're off topic and talking about zapdos....

Back on topic, 248hp, 252 def, 8 sp def, bold zapdos w/ life orb is the guaranteed counter to all mega luke sets

 

[Hitokiri Battousai]

Checks & Counters
########

- Talonflame - doesn't counter, doesn't even check as it rarely if ever runs enough speed + jolly to outspeed mega luke and is ko'd fairly easily especially if rocks are up by both sets if it does, let alone brave bird doesn't ohko and it will be dead before it can flare blitz

the EVs needed would be 144 speed and anything over 128 Attack then Jolly Talonflame can outspeed (by literally 1 Vs a jolly or timid mega Lucario) and OHKO with flare blitz

 

[Agent Gibbs]

Life Orb defensive Zapdos is a horrible set because defensive Zapdos is designed to take hits, not dish them out. Giving up the passive recovery of Leftovers for an item that boosts power at the cost of 10% of your HP per hit is an awful trade on a defensive Pokemon. When you're talking about checks and counters, you need to mention sets that are actually relevant. Of the two main defensive Zapdos sets, physically defensive Zapdos can be worked around by both Mega Lucario sets if Mega Lucario is at full health while the specially defensive set at least hard counters NP Mega Lucario.

My final word on the matter is that physically defensive Zapdos can be mentioned as a general check to Mega Lucario, but specially defensive Zapdos needs to be specifically mentioned as a hard stop to the NP set.

 

[alexwolf]

Add SpD Moltres in checks and counters.

 

[rachet67]

Personally I think SpD Moltres is not viable on most OU teams. If it is used it requires a ton of support to use properly and shouldn't really just be thrown on a team to counter Mega lucario. It more requires a team to built around it covering its shortcomings. This is especially true when its trying to be a defensive mon, rather than a rain sweeper like last gen.

I'm probably going to get a ton of hate from people saying that moltres is perfectly viable. I'm just saying that while it certainly can be viable, its not easy to find a place for moltres, especially after the lack of perm rain to spam hurricane with. Maybe this is somewhat alleviated by the introduction of defog, I haven't played with moltres in XY yet so I wouldn't be able to say anything in regard to that.

Basically, I wouldn't include it in M-Lucario's Check/Counter analysis for the same reason Weavile is not in Dragonite B/W check and counter analysis. Then again, I'm not QC, and maybe I have no idea what I'm talking about.

 

[sidakarya]

On the NP-set, I think Close Combat is worth mentioning over Aura Sphere. I'm trying out a mixed NP set and I can attest, that it's monstrously effective. (I'm no QC-member though, so take this with a grain of salt)

Even with no attack investment, M-Lucario's Close Combat OHKO's both Chansey and Blissey, and also has a chance of a OHKO on Goodra after Stealth Rock or some prior damage (easy because it doesn't have reliable recovery). What makes it so potent in my opinion is the even greater potential for mindgames, that already makes Lucario so dangerous. You could bluff a physical set with Close Combat, only to murder a Gliscor or Landorus-T trying to wall you; likewise, you can lure special walls with Nasty Plot and dispatch them with Close Combat. I actually don't think, it has any sort of reliable counter - maybe Zapdos and Moltres, and pray to the gods, that it doesn't flinchax you with Dark Pulse. Obviously with a mixed set, you should use Hasty or Naive over Timid (preferably Naive, because priority is mostly physical)

 

[G Royal]

Yeah tbh, it's actually pretty broken in OU, the best counters it has is zapdos and gyarados, checks mean you're willing to sac a mon to arceus... I mean lucario in order to get them safely in, should be an ubers analysis instead since after khan is gone I'm sure mega luke will follow, crawdaunt is pretty broken with adaptability as it is giving lucario it was way too much.

 

[Subject 18]

It's written up and ready for its last QC check.

 

[Colonel M]

Moltres really just needs a spinner or Defog. Considering Exca + Moltres is solid and Latias or Scizor + Moltres also works I wouldn't really think Moltres is a bad mention as a check or counter.

Also:

" Without that speed Lucario can me easier to revenge kill and deal with..."

Be not me.

 

[alexwolf]

Add Moltres in checks and counters. It is a viable Pokemon in OU and the only perfect counter to any Lucario set, so it deserves a mention.

 

[Subject 18]

Okay, I added SpDef Moltres.

 

[alexwolf]

You added Moltres only as a counter to NP Mega Lucario, while it counters all three main sets of Lucario and is its only true counter, so please add it in the first paragraph of checks and counters.

 

[Subject 18]

Fixed

 

[alexwolf]

Replace the mention of Moltres being able to OHKO Lucario with Fire Blast, with Flamethrower, as this is the fire move that SpD Moltres uses.

 

[Subject 18]

done

 

[Plus]

is there any mention of hp ice in the nasty plot set? it's good for landorus-i and landorus-t as well as gliscor. I don't think you have to slash it anywhere but a mention of it somewhere would be nice.

edit: nvm flash cannon seems to hit it just fine

qc 3/3

 

[Shiruba]

A lot of people in Lucario's thread in the OU forum swear by a mixed set - have you tried one? Is it any good?
{please, forgive me if you have used it before, but I don't believe it's been mentioned in this thread or in your OO}
I believe one of the more popular ones uses something like this?

Lucario @ Lucarionite
Naive nature
Ability: Justified => Adaptability
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SAtk / 252 Spe
- Nasty Plot
- Close Combat
- Flash Cannon
- Dark Pulse

I've also heard mentions of a Work Up set, but it seems inferior to me personally. Work Up's a fairly poor choice in general.

 

[Shurtugal]

G Royal

Gravity Sheer Force Landorus can OHKO Zapdos...

Now is not the time nor place to be discussing possibilities if a ban take that somewhere else please.

-.-.-

As for the analysis mention how SD Lucario does better than NP Lucario in Sticky Web support since it gets much more OHKOs and a stronger priority to boot.

Edit: you did read the part where I said In Sticky Web, right CyberOdin? I agree that NP is better otherwise (on an overall scale).

Edit2: I feel NP Lucario can run Justified to bluff its SD counterpart js

 

[CyberOdin✝]

Set nasty plot, is more that set SD, is more broken.

 

[Punchshroom]

Volcarona should also be in C&C, or at least the bulkier variants, for the same reason Moltres is.

 

[Subject 18]

I don't know how I feel about adding Volcarona to the checks and counters. I feel like it has better things to be doing than trying to pose as a counter to Lucario.

 

[Shurtugal]

It can come in after Lucario kills something and QD for free or FB its certainly worth a mention in the checks section imo.

 

[Subject 18]

I'll add it in when I get back home.

 

[Colonel M]

Moltres and Volcarona are a bit different in that Moltres is more suited to be a tank while Volcarona is more of a sweeper / bulky sweeper.

I would mention that Quiver Dancing is very dangerous, though, as +2 ESpeed and CC still does a number. It kind of works on Special Lukes, though.