Is there an effective way to break the village leader system?

[shinyskarmory]

I've been thinking about this for a while, and I think I've come up with a few solutions other then just playing NOC all the time (which does work but we're getting a little over saturated at this point). I wanted to post them here because with my current dubious status as a mafia host they're unlikely to ever see the light of day.

-Changing alliances mid game. Obviously everybody hates recruitments in games not specifically designed for it (see: Turnip Mafia), but I'm talking specifically about alignment changes like the split in handicapable. A certain event in game provoking a split where each villager has to look out for themselves could be cool.

-A "death note" role. If someone made a role where you could kill any player so long as you knew the name of one of their abilities, and it was known that this role existed, then players would be much more hesitant to share role PMs because giving it to the guy with the death note was sealing your fate

-bastard stuff like making inspectors always appear to target the most recently killed player even if they targeted someone else

I'm sure that there's more out there, what have you guys come up with?

 

[zorbees]

I think the two main solutions are opposites:

1. Introduce more uncertainty between players

If players have to always be on their toes because they are unsure who is an ally and who is an enemy, they can't just give all of their information to one person and have that person lead them.

2. Introduce less uncertainty between players

If players can be nearly certain who their allies are and who their enemies are, players can communicate freely between their allies because they know it is in safe hands. This will lead to less people being left in the dark without any information.

I think the issue is implementing one or both of these solutions without it being unfair, and while still feeling like mafia. For example, if you make it so it is easier to distinguish friend and foe, it becomes less of mafia and more of tactical game.

I have come up with a format that I think has potential to become a new standard, at least for a while. I'm working on fleshing out the details, getting feedback from some people, but I may come public with it soon, depending on what happens. The thing that I think could be great about this format is that it works without surprises and should be able to work multiple times without becoming formulaic.

 

[billymills]

I agree with zorbees, but I think each solutions are valid for a different collection of games.

The first is definitely more true of multi-faction games, but can also apply to typical 2v1s, given the proper set-up. I would definitely look towards this if you're thinking of making a game. Methods would be along the lines of less verifiable information: fewer inspectors, less standard roles, more mole-type abilities. You could include special roles such as the Death note or alliance switchers, but those should be used sparingly.

The second is obviously the NOC-type game. The more information that is out in the open, the more players can decide for themselves. It's less total information, but everyone is able to see it for themselves. Mafia would not work with total information being passed to everyone.

 

[zorbees]

Just for clarification, I didn't really mean NOC with point 2. I meant it more in terms of like, every faction is a mafia group, or, if they start un-united, its easy to unite. An example of this can be aska's RPS mafia. Three factions that could unite fairly easily and were hard to mole. I think something like viva sort of applies to this, because after a while, everyone will be in a mafia group. I said it'd be more like a tactical game than mafia because most of the game would be how to use your roles to gain advantages over your enemies, rather than figuring out who is an enemy and who is an ally.

 

[Yeti]

There are two clear solutions to the village leader problem beyond NOC:

1. Have no village. Multifaction, FFA, etc. Even then there will be individuals who set out to be the name of their faction, alliance, whatever organization they are in-game or willingly part of. But it won't be necessarily a group of uninformed players trusting strategy, safety and success in one user and his selected "clean" villagers.

2. Give every role some incentive to gain knowledge or to not share anything so it's a bunch of people finding information on their own with no clear reason to compile it, or to trust one leader. Working together in clusters after you verify someone else is who they seem. Perhaps some sort of win condition where clusters of the village can win easier than the whole village allowing you to not follow one large leader, or some sort of Clue/mafia hybrid where you gain information to speculate on who the mafia are but have incentive to keep it to yourself, or even have a backlash for mislynching or giving away your information.

Actually a Clue-mafia might be interesting.
And by Clue-mafia, I mean like, you have to venture into X room and gain information on user1/2/3 and Y weapon, and you learn Y weapon was used but user2 holds Z weapon, maybe even a weapon exchange system to track, and you can't lynch anyone until you reveal your information to show why user1 and user3 are mafia but if you're wrong you'll die instead.
Maybe the killer changes each night and if you can lynch the current killer you win or if you can show the proper X-killed-Y-with-Z order per night you win..
Hmm if anyone is interested in something like this contact me, Yeti on IRC as always, this actually sounds like it might be really fun if it was properly planned out with a lot of checking for weird scenarios.

 

[askaninjask]

The best way to ensure that there is no village leader is to make "village leader" the most dangerous position to be in. If the mafia has, say, an every other night safeguard, then the village leader is going to be a rotating position, which is, honestly, the best that can realistically be hoped for when considering the "village leader problem".

Villages are going to keep information tight because their knowledge is their only weapon. It's not a horrible thing for a village to have a leader. It might not be amazingly fun for everyone in the village all the time, but it's certainly fun for the leader.