SM OU I'm stuck at 1300 on the ladder because I keep losing to stall

[Birdman_J]

Heatran @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Lava Plume
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic
- Taunt

I built this team around heatran and mantine, heatran takes out bulky grass types like
bulu, tangrowth and ferrothorn while mantine nullifies fighting types, water types, and ground types.
Heatran's moveset is something that isn't set in stone yet

Mantine @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Defog
- Roost
- Toxic

Keldeo @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Secret Sword
- Icy Wind
- Scald

Keldeo is one of my main damage dealers alongside garchomp. I gave keldeo a choice scarf so that it could
outspeed and OHKO greninja, mega alakazam, and Lopunny

Santiago (Garchomp) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Outrage
- Fire Fang

Garchomp eliminates major threats to the rest of my team like tapu koko and toxapex

Latias @ Latiasite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Recover
- Psychic
- Thunderbolt

Great bulky attacking mon with a good recovery

Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Soft-Boiled
- Moonblast
- Toxic
- Calm Mind

Great for switching into when I don't want my latias poisoned or my garchomp burned.
Also eats up attacks that mantine or heatran would have trouble with

 

[Altervisi]

Hi great team!

In order to help your stall match up you could change the Keldeo set from Scarf to Substitute/Taunt and Calm Mind, seeing as you already have Scarf Garchomp. This will allow you to avoid status like Toxic and Paralysis while setting up and stall will find it hard to break substitute, especially after a few Calm Minds, you should be able to get to +6 against low ladder stall players and then sweep the team. Taunt can also be used to avoid status and shut down mons like Chansey and Toxapex. Just make sure you have removed Toxic Spikes with Mantine before swapping in.

SUB CM KELDEO

Keldeo @ Leftovers
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Substitute/Taunt
- Calm Mind
- Scald
- Secret Sword

You are also quite weak to Fairy types which are very common. You can change Mega-Latias -> SG Magearna. This provides you with a strong speed-boosting set-up sweeper and a Z Move user, don't worry, you aren't at any disadvantage not using a Mega. Other than Stone Edge you have no reliable way of hitting Flying types, so Electrium Z is a great pick, along side Ice Beam this is great coverage and can OHKO mons like Landorus and opposing Garchomp. One you have achieve a KO then your special attack will boost and you will have double speed after using Shift Gear, which can help you sweep the opposing team (also good for stall). Magearna also has decent natural bulk. I hope this helps!

SG MAGEARNA

Magearna @ Electrium Z
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Shift Gear
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt
- Focus Blast

Edit: I mean, yeah stall will always have mons to wall threats, thats kind of the point of the playstyle. However Electrium Z can nuke Pex and Secret Sword at +6 will break Chansey. I will concede that Taunt is definitely worth mentioning though, however I think the Z Crystal is necessary on Magearna, over Keldeo, for Pex.

 

[Birdman_J]

Hi great team!

In order to help your stall match up you could change the Keldeo set from Scarf to Substitute and Calm Mind, seeing as you already have Scarf Garchomp. This will allow you to avoid status like Toxic and Paralysis while setting up and stall will find it hard to break substitute, especially after a few Calm Minds, you should be able to get to +6 against low ladder stall players and then sweep the team. Just make sure you have removed Toxic Spikes with Mantine before swapping in.

SUB CM KELDEO

Keldeo @ Leftovers
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Substitute
- Calm Mind
- Scald
- Secret Sword

You are also quite weak to Fairy types which are very common. You can change Mega-Latias -> SG Magearna. This provides you with a strong speed-boosting set-up sweeper and a Z Move user, don't worry, you aren't at any disadvantage not using a Mega. Other than Stone Edge you have no reliable way of hitting Flying types, so Electrium Z is a great pick, along side Ice Beam this is great coverage and can OHKO mons like Landorus and opposing Garchomp. One you have achieve a KO then your special attack will boost and you will have double speed after using Shift Gear, which can help you sweep the opposing team (also good for stall). Magearna also has decent natural bulk. I hope this helps!

SG MAGEARNA

Magearna @ Electrium Z
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Shift Gear
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt
- Focus Blast

Thanks for the advice!
Already looking forward to bashing those stall teams. I played a showdown a lot during ORAS and just got into it again. I'm new to smogon, sorry if the post wasn't formatted very well.

Thanks a lot!

 

[patlop2307]

Hi great team!

In order to help your stall match up you could change the Keldeo set from Scarf to Substitute and Calm Mind, seeing as you already have Scarf Garchomp. This will allow you to avoid status like Toxic and Paralysis while setting up and stall will find it hard to break substitute, especially after a few Calm Minds, you should be able to get to +6 against low ladder stall players and then sweep the team. Just make sure you have removed Toxic Spikes with Mantine before swapping in.

SUB CM KELDEO

Keldeo @ Leftovers
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Substitute
- Calm Mind
- Scald
- Secret Sword

You are also quite weak to Fairy types which are very common. You can change Mega-Latias -> SG Magearna. This provides you with a strong speed-boosting set-up sweeper and a Z Move user, don't worry, you aren't at any disadvantage not using a Mega. Other than Stone Edge you have no reliable way of hitting Flying types, so Electrium Z is a great pick, along side Ice Beam this is great coverage and can OHKO mons like Landorus and opposing Garchomp. One you have achieve a KO then your special attack will boost and you will have double speed after using Shift Gear, which can help you sweep the opposing team (also good for stall). Magearna also has decent natural bulk. I hope this helps!

SG MAGEARNA

Magearna @ Electrium Z
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Shift Gear
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt
- Focus Blast

The changes you suggested do not really break stall, however. Yes, you make the team that much more solid. But that doesnt change the fact that Chansey and Toxapex wall Magearna and Keldeo, respectively.

 

[Flame from Heaven]

The changes you suggested do not really break stall, however. Yes, you make the team that much more solid. But that doesnt change the fact that Chansey and Toxapex wall Magearna and Keldeo, respectively.

In that case, Taunt can be ran over substitute, as this lets you beat Toxapex and use it as set up fodder.

 

[Meliodafu7]

I strongly suggest run Taunt CM Waterium Z Keldeo. With this set you can break SPL stall very well, but stall with amoonguss can give you some headaches

 

[patlop2307]

In that case, Taunt can be ran over substitute, as this lets you beat Toxapex and use it as set up fodder.

Taunt does not beat stall either when there is an Unaware Clefable in the back though

 

[Altervisi]

Taunt does not beat stall either when there is an Unaware Clefable in the back though

There is literally no way that you can have a mon that stall as an archetype does not have a single answer to, even Mawile can be dealt with by Skarmory + Counter or Hippowdon and Mawile is the single best pokémon against stall.

So I don't see what naming one Pokémon the opponent may have as a wall will actually do to help. Adding Magearna helps vs Clef and also Mantine can Toxic this.

EDIT:

Stall has adequate switch-ins/counters to all of the Pokémon. Take Mawile for example, you know why it beats stall most of the time? Because it pressures it. Does Keldeo pressure the stall Pokémon? No, of course not because certain Pokémon wall it. Mawile on the other hand has access to Swords Dance, making it incredibly dangerous to every single Pokémon there is on stall.

In a nutshell, what you want to do is pressure stall as a collective, be able to make progress in breaking it, whilst making doubles or risky plays. And I do not see that here at all.

SD Mawile can't kill Skarmory/Hippowdon/Toxapex and gets phazed out. AoA can't break Hippowdon and both sets can be answered by Skarmory Counter. I'm not saying Mawile isn't better, but that it does have counters, as does Keldeo and Magearna, but that doesn't mean they don't help alleviate the stall matchup.

I mean all in all fuck stall and anyone who plays it though.

 

[patlop2307]

There is literally no way that you can have a mon that stall as an archetype does not have a single answer to, even Mawile can be dealt with by Skarmory + Counter or Hippowdon and Mawile is the single best pokémon against stall.

So I don't see what naming one Pokémon the opponent may have as a wall will actually do to help. Adding Magearna helps vs Clef and also Mantine can Toxic this.

Stall has adequate switch-ins/counters to all of the Pokémon. Take Mawile for example, you know why it beats stall most of the time? Because it pressures it. Does Keldeo pressure the stall Pokémon? No, of course not because certain Pokémon wall it. Mawile on the other hand has access to Swords Dance, making it incredibly dangerous to every single Pokémon there is on stall.

In a nutshell, what you want to do is pressure stall as a collective, be able to make progress in breaking it, whilst making doubles or risky plays. And I do not see that here at all.

*EDIT: Skarm only needs to come in on rocks once and its gone by thunder punching it, it needs to come in on rocks twice to get ko'd by a +2 Knock Off.

click for calcs

+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 226-267 (67.8 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Hippowdon, well, it gets p much 1hko'd by a +2 Play Rough.

click for calcs

+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 388-457 (92.3 - 108.8%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery

And Toxapex also is beaten by every single Mawile set, let it be Swords Dance 3 attacks, or 4 attacks, or even rocks 3 attacks

click for calcs

+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Toxapex: 276-325 (91 - 107.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock, 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Thunder Punch vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Toxapex: 214-252 (70.6 - 83.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

So, as you can see there is a reason why Mawile is so good versus stall, that being the fact that it has no counters on stall.

 

[Flame from Heaven]

Taunt does not beat stall either when there is an Unaware Clefable in the back though

Clefable is an issue, but Hydro Vortex can break past it if you play well. Since this takes up his Z crystal Slot, he could run double dance Magearna.

 

[Fayari]

Hey! I really like your team. I especially love Latias-Mega in there, since she is one of my favorite pokemon and I use her too.

Just a couple of concerns though:
1. What is your current counter against common set-up sweepers like Zygarde, Scizor-Mega, etc? You don't have a Haze pokemon, and your Clefable is using Magic Guard instead of Unaware.
2. Your team, but Garchomp especially is probably getting statused/chipped too much. You don't have Heal Bell on Clefable, or a second poison/steel type to switch into a Toxic or Toxic Spikes, and Heatran is weak to Stealth Rock. Your Garchomp won't take out Toxapex before it can Toxic you and switch out.

252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Toxapex: 228-270 (75.2 - 89.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

Suggestions:
1. Consider adding Haze or making Clefable Unaware. You can put Haze on Mantine, then move your Defog to Latias. Alternatively, you can make Clefable Unaware to make set-up sweepers cry.
2. Add Earth Power and maybe Magma Storm to Heatran. It's too dangerous for Garchomp to deal with Toxapex. Better just to let Heatran deal with it. Heatran can't get Toxic'd, has Taunt, doesn't need the Atk stat even if he gets burned by Scald, and can trap Toxapex or other pokemon with Magma Storm so they can't switch out.
3. Definitely add Heal Bell on Clefable. To save the rest of your team from statuses and invalidate the need for Magic Guard. Heal Bell + Soft-boiled + Unaware = Awesome.

 

[patlop2307]

All right, so my bad for having discussed with you BladeofFriendship beforehand, but this is going to be my rate about the team.
( *As a side note: The rates from now on are going to be strcutured a bit differently, the "Weaknesses Section" is now going to flow in my "First Impression".)

First impression:

The team, although looking pretty solid, misses a stall answer, that rooting in the lack of any power-giving item and the lack of set-up types (no physical existing). Physical breakers such as Tyranitar, Weavile or Tapu Bulu, as well as special attackers such as Tapu Lele or Tapu Koko, can pose a huge threat to the team. Knock Off can also become a huge problem if the Pokémon is strong enough to two-hit Latias-Mega, since the rest of the team relies on either Leftovers or Choice Scarf. The team is also, in most scenarios, set up fodder to sweepers such as Gyarados, Charizard-X or even Reuniclus or Calm Mind Tapu Lele.

How can you improve the team? :

Zygarde > Garchomp: Zygarde is more fitting on this team, in my opinion. With its bulk it is able to semi-check a lot of the afroementioned Pokémon like Tyranitar or Tapu Koko. Depending on the set, it is also quite the nuisance to stall.

Tyranitar-Mega > Latias-Mega: This might be subjective, but I think Tyranitar-Mega is a better fit against stall and checks Pokémon like Charizard-X or Tapu Koko. I would want to suggest a bulky 4 attacks set, since it is, probably, the most reliable in trapping a lot of Pokémon.

Tapu Bulu > Keldeo: The reason why I went with that change is mainly to glue the Earthquake weakness as well as giving a switch-in to Zygarde, Tapu Koko and Tapu Lele. Furthermore, Tapu Bulu is just a great utility Pokémon in general, being able to Natures Madness Pokémon on stall and forcing them to recover everytime.

Reuniclus > Clefable: Now, this is an unorthodox pick to make but it is a fact that Reuniclus is probably one of the best lower tier Pokémon out, right now. It is also a capable stall breaker, if played well.

Will-o-Wisp > Toxic; Heatran: You might seem a little Mawile weak, that is why I went with Will-o-Wisp as a lure for Mawile. You can just Lava Plume the Mawile afterwards. I am also going with a bulkier spread on Heatran just to make it bulkier and more capable in taking hits.

The Team:

http://pokepast.es/2d964648a3b62324

Hope I helped you out, man :)

 

[Chickenpie2]

patlop2307 ur mantine set has scratch instead of scald

 

[patlop2307]

Minor nitpicks to all the discussion here:

1. With rocks up clef isn’t taking 2 hydros and taunt cm takes on clef/tang/mola/pex/anything pretty much stall had for keld
2. Pex is running at least some PhysDef in stall
3. Stall does have “c h e c k s” to Mawile like wisp Tran and gliscor not the previously mentioned mons
4. Run stored power on Latias
5. Don’t run 2 scarfers
6. You have a free z slot and mega slot to run powerful breakers to help your problem
7. No one runs stall at the 1300’s

1st point is debatable. If you dont run sub, pex can burn you with scald, making you lose the match-up versus it, and thats if hydro 2hkos the clef after rocks. I would not generalize Keldeo being THE stallbreaker.

 

[Birdman_J]

All right, so my bad for having discussed with you BladeofFriendship beforehand, but this is going to be my rate about the team.
( *As a side note: The rates from now on are going to be strcutured a bit differently, the "Weaknesses Section" is now going to flow in my "First Impression".)

First impression:

The team, although looking pretty solid, misses a stall answer, that rooting in the lack of any power-giving item and the lack of set-up types (no physical existing). Physical breakers such as Tyranitar, Weavile or Tapu Bulu, as well as special attackers such as Tapu Lele or Tapu Koko, can pose a huge threat to the team. Knock Off can also become a huge problem if the Pokémon is strong enough to two-hit Latias-Mega, since the rest of the team relies on either Leftovers or Choice Scarf. The team is also, in most scenarios, set up fodder to sweepers such as Gyarados, Charizard-X or even Reuniclus or Calm Mind Tapu Lele.

How can you improve the team? :

Zygarde > Garchomp: Zygarde is more fitting on this team, in my opinion. With its bulk it is able to semi-check a lot of the afroementioned Pokémon like Tyranitar or Tapu Koko. Depending on the set, it is also quite the nuisance to stall.

Tyranitar-Mega > Latias-Mega: This might be subjective, but I think Tyranitar-Mega is a better fit against stall and checks Pokémon like Charizard-X or Tapu Koko. I would want to suggest a bulky 4 attacks set, since it is, probably, the most reliable in trapping a lot of Pokémon.

Tapu Bulu > Keldeo: The reason why I went with that change is mainly to glue the Earthquake weakness as well as giving a switch-in to Zygarde, Tapu Koko and Tapu Lele. Furthermore, Tapu Bulu is just a great utility Pokémon in general, being able to Natures Madness Pokémon on stall and forcing them to recover everytime.

Reuniclus > Clefable: Now, this is an unorthodox pick to make but it is a fact that Reuniclus is probably one of the best lower tier Pokémon out, right now. It is also a capable stall breaker, if played well.

Will-o-Wisp > Toxic; Heatran: You might seem a little Mawile weak, that is why I went with Will-o-Wisp as a lure for Mawile. You can just Lava Plume the Mawile afterwards. I am also going with a bulkier spread on Heatran just to make it bulkier and more capable in taking hits.

The Team:

http://pokepast.es/2d964648a3b62324

Hope I helped you out, man :)

I really like those changes, you did a really good job of answering stall but these changes create a huge weakness to greninja, mainly because of type weaknesses and lack of speed control. You gave me a lot of good ideas for how to improve my team and I'll work out the weaknesses.

Thanks a lot man :)

 

[Not Miyan]

Nice team dude! But I think magma storm heatran would make much more sense on this team because it can trap annoying Mons like Toxapex and kill it. Another change I'd suggest that run haze over toxic on mantine so you don't lose to clef, cm Lati and especially, volcarona. You don't actually need scarf keldeo on team as you're not actually weak to ash gren or volc because mantine deals with them. So I'd suggest to run defensive Lando with hp ice, toxic, eq protect. This will help you in zyg and Koko lucha match up and protect is overall good for scouting Vs lele.

Remove scarf chomp... It's just bad rn. Scarf kart w/ knock off, help you to get rid of leftovers from zap and skarm if you're facing stall and overall a good cleaner and gives you a FWG core.

Your mega lati set is bad... Either run support move set or run cm stored power.. psychic is just awful and makes you very weak to chansey.

Latias-Mega @ Latiasite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Stored Power
- Calm Mind
- Recover

This is the set I usually run on M-Lati w/ tspikes support. However you can change sub for surf/reflect type to improve your ttar, tran and mag match up.

And last your clef set is good but toxic doesn't help it much because its checks are usually.... Steel types so I recommend you to change it to cosmic power which lets you take on many threats in meta like smart strike kart, specs lele, hawlucha, zygarde and more this is really good w/ trapping tran as you can trap pex with it so this can go crazy. Yes, it makes you weak to crit chances but hey who actually can predict crits. Ask P2

Here's the importable: https://pokepast.es/f530f41f07bd26c7

Sorry, I haven't read other people's suggestions so I'm sorry in advance if I gave you similar suggestion(s). I tried to make your team look like the original one by just changing one Mon.

Hope I helped you!
E: typos

 

[patlop2307]

I really like those changes, you did a really good job of answering stall but these changes create a huge weakness to greninja, mainly because of type weaknesses and lack of speed control. You gave me a lot of good ideas for how to improve my team and I'll work out the weaknesses.

Thanks a lot man :)

Bulu should cover ash and tran the protean sets