Hippowdon [Editing] [GP 0/2]

Andrew

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passed from s_aman for merging sets (this is my first analysis involvement, forgive me if I've made any horrible mistakes)

Original Thread


Overview
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Hippowdon is one of the best mixed walls in the game, checking some of the metagame's most prominent threats such as Aegislash, Talonflame, and Garchomp. It has everything a wall could want; good typing, great bulk, and reliable recovery. It also has good supporting options in Stealth Rock and Whirlwind, and is useful on sand teams due to its ability, Sand Stream. Its attacks also pack quite a punch for a defensive Pokemon. However, it is painfully slow and has common weaknesses to Water- and Ice-type moves. It also has to rely on Whirlwind to stop setup sweepers, making it somewhat easy to wear down Hippowdon.

Specially Defensive
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name: Mixed Wall
move 1: Earthquake
move 2: Stealth Rock
move 3: Slack Off
move 4: Whirlwind / Toxic / Stone Edge
ability: Sand Stream / Sand force
item: Leftovers
nature: Impish
evs: 252 HP / 72 Def / 184 SpD

Moves
========

Earthquake is a strong STAB attack that deters frail sweepers from setting up on Hippowdon. Stealth Rock is a great support move and Hippowdon is very good at setting it up due to its great bulk. Slack Off provides reliable recovery making it more difficult to wear it down. The last slot depends on what your team needs, as all can benefit you depending on your build. Whirlwind gets rid of your opponent's stat boosts while racking up entry hazard damage and it is Hippowdon's best chance against bulkier set-up sweepers like Mega Scizor. Toxic is a great move on Hippowdon that cripples opposing walls and defoggers who want to switch in such as Mandibuzz, Rotom-W, Zapdos, Mew, and Latios, while also making it easier for teammates to sweep. Stone Edge is excellent on bulky offense teams for an offensive approach and should be used with the alternate EV Spread of 252 HP / 120 Def / 136 SpD if you need to OHKO Mega Pinsir, Char Y, and Talonflame, while also doing hefty damage to Thundurus. Rock Slide can be used in place of Stone Edge for reliable chip damage as it breaks Air Balloon and also damages Talonflame, Mega Charizard Y, and Mega Pinsir, although it does not ensure OHKO's.

Set Details
========
This spread gives Hippowdon enough special bulk to reliably deal with Aegislash, Mega Manectric and avoids the 2HKO from LO Thundurus-I, while simultaneously surviving a LO Terrakion Close Combat. It can also function as a catch all check for attackers from both sides of the spectrum such as Talonflame, Garchomp, non CB Dragonite, Bisharp, and Gengar. He can come in on Char Y to disrupt Solarbeam, but does not avoid the 2HKO from Fire Blast in or out of sun. Leftovers is used to provide passive recovery which could mean the difference between an OHKO or 2HKO. Sand Stream is the preferred ability as it lets Hippowdown disrupt opposing weather and double Excadrill's speed, although Sand Force can be used if Sand Stream is detrimental to rest of your team. Smooth Rock with Sand Stream, which extends the number of Sand turns to 8, can be used to provide a sweeping opportunity for Sand Rush Excadrill who absolutely loves the sand Hippowdon provides, or to give a boost to Mega Garchomp's Earthquake and Stone Edge.

A spread of 252 HP / 120 Def / 136 SpD allows Hippowdon to still take 2 shadow balls from max spA Aegislash, while avoiding the 2HKO from unboosted M-Pinsir Returns, or one at +2, while OHKO'ing with Stone Edge. A spread of 252 HP / 252+ Def gives Hippowdon the bulk to take on Mega Pinsir and Charizard X, while also being more impenetrable to physical attackers such as Garchomp, Excadrill and Terrakion.

Usage Tips
========

Try to keep Hippowdon as healthy as possible if there is a Pokemon on the opposing team that can be checked by Hippowdon, as its low Speed often forces it to take 2 hits before it can fire off an attack. Keep in mind that Hippowdon can set up Stealth Rock several times, so you don't have to worry too much about Defog or Rapid Spin. Thanks to its naturally high Defense stat, it can take weaker physical attacks easily. If you see a Pokemon that is badly affected by sandstorm on the opposing team, such as Chansey or Mega Venusaur, always try to take advantage of it.

Team Options
========

Hippowdon appreciates teammates that can take on special attackers easily, such as Chansey and Latias, as he is primarialy a physical check. The former can also rid Hippowdon of any status effect that it might have been inflicted with, while the latter can use Defog to support the team.
A way of controlling entry hazards on your side, such as Defog, is appreciated as Hippowdon can potentially be 2HKOed by taking entry hazard damage followed by two hits from the opponent. Latias and Mega Scizor are good candidates, having solid synergy with Hippowdon. Hippowdon also appreciates teammates that can switch into Water-, Ice-, and Grass-type attacks aimed at it, such as Ferrothorn and Mega Venusaur. Hippowdon in return can check Talonflame and Mega Pinsir who threaten Mega Venusaur. If you are using Mega Venusaur, be sure to use Sand Force as Hippowdon's ability as Sand Stream reduces Synthesis recovery. Ferrothorn can also lay Spikes, which can quickly wear down the opponent in conjunction with Stealth Rock, sand, and Whirlwind. Rotom-W also makes a great defensive teammate, as it can take Water- and Ice-type attacks for Hippowdon. The sand Hippowdon brings is excellent on more defensive teams for powering up Excadrill, who becomes a fearsome sweeper and wallbreaker with his ability Sand Rush, as well as providing an extra speedy rapid spin. Mega Aerodactyl is a good partner as the sand bolsters his Special Defense, allowing him to either sweep more effectively or become tanky on both sides with his bulky build. Mega Garchomp also appreciates the boost as his Earthquakes and Stone Edges become even stronger.


Other Options
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A spread of 252 HP / 252+ SpD can be used to deal with Charizard Y, as Hippowdon can take 2 Fire Blasts from full health in Sand, or disrupt a predicted Solar Beam with Sand Stream, which is the only ability that should be used with this spread. It can also handle LO/Spooky Plate Aegislash, LO Lati@s, and LO Thundurus. Ice Fang can be used on either set to hit Garchomp and other pokemon weak to Ice for heavy damage, but it is very weak otherwise and it is generally better to use Toxic or Whirlwind. Stone Edge is an option if you are not running Sand Stream and your team struggles against Mega Pinsir. An offensive set can be used due to its good offensive movepool but compromising with Hippowdon's bulk is not a good option.


Checks & Counters
########

**Water-types** Almost all common Water-types, such as Azumarill, Gyarados, Mega Gyarados, Keldeo, and Rotom-W force Hippowdon out with their respective STAB moves, while Hippowdon can't do much to them in return.

**Grass-types** Grass-types such as Breloom, Mega Venusaur, and Ferrothorn can easily switch into Hippowdon and hit back hard with their respective STAB moves. Breloom can Spore and proceed to set up with Swords Dance, while Mega Venusaur can use Leech Seed or deal heavy damage with Giga Drain, and Ferrothorn can set up entry hazards.

**Powerful Special Attackers** Strong special attackers such as Choice Specs Keldeo and Mega Charizard Y can break through Hippowdon with strong special attacks.

**Ice-types** Common Ice-types like Kyurem-B can easily KO Hippowdon with their respective STAB moves, although most of them have to be wary of switching into Rock Slide.

**Opposing Hazard Setters** Skarmory, Ferrothorn, and Deoxys-D can setup hazards, while Hippowdon can't do anything to them in return besides phazing them out.

**Status and Taunt** Toxic and Will-O-Wisp are very detrimental to Hippowdon, slowly wearing it down so that a strong attacker can overwhelm it. Since most taunt users, such as Prankster Thundurus and Mandibuzz, are faster than Hippowdown, they can stop him from setting up rocks, healing, or spreading status.

**Trick and Switcheroo** Trick and Switcheroo users can cripple Hippowdon for the rest of the match as it can't wall opposing threats if it is locked into one move.
 
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Jukain

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Changed the tag to Quality Control because this is still going to need QC check/is in QC stage.

Set Details definitely needs a couple alternate spreads. 252/84+/172 is what Dice runs, it has a bit more special bulk to tank Aegi more comfortably while still having enough physical to generally carry out its role. 252/252+/0 is definitely an option if you're more Pinsir weak/need the bulk to handle Char X reliably, and stuff like that. 252/0/252+ is probably OO or just a small Set Details mention, it cockblocks Aegi/Thund + deals with Char Y but it's sorely missing physical bulk. Note this spread should be used with Sand Stream for Char Y.

Exca should really be highlighted in Team Options imo, Sand Rush Exca is a really effective partner on more offensive builds that would rather Hippo than Tyranitar.
 
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i don't think toxic should be the first slash

whirlwind / toxic / rock slide should be the order imo -- phazing in general is just so much more reliable; ya toxicing mandibuzz / lati@s or whatever defoggers is cool i guess, but the former runs taunt which means you have to hit both on the switch basically.. meh

excadrill is a good partner to add. i don't really understand jukain's wording though... mega aerodactyl also appreciates the sand boost and is a pretty decent partner

qc approved 1/3
 

Andrew

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Alright Dice , Jukain , I made the team options, OO changes you suggested, switched the last move slot around, while also trying to beef up the mentions of Excadrill
 

Reymedy

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If I may, I really prefer Stone Edge over Rock Slide. The extra power really makes a deal, else you have no chance to kill Pinsir-M (even taking Sandstream damage into account). That's also a guaranteed kill against Talonflame that invested in HP. The kill is not even guaranteed against 0 HP Charizard :|
Stone Edge kills Thundurus after SR and one Sandstream turn, making sure that if your opponent tries to get his Thundurus in safely on a predicted EQ, he will be punished (and has a 50% chance to outright kill). I think these scenarios are relevant enough.


And I don't get why the rock move is slashed last. As you say yourself in your analysis, you want your Hippowdon to check Pinsir-M/Talonflame, but I don't see how you could do it with WhirlWind and Toxic. Honnestly, Hippowdon loses a lost of interest in if he's not able to reliably switch in, and force out these threats.

My 2cents ! I hope it helps.
 

Andrew

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If I may, I really prefer Stone Edge over Rock Slide. The extra power really makes a deal, else you have no chance to kill Pinsir-M (even taking Sandstream damage into account). That's also a guaranteed kill against Talonflame that invested in HP. The kill is not even guaranteed against 0 HP Charizard :|
Stone Edge kills Thundurus after SR and one Sandstream turn, making sure that if your opponent tries to get his Thundurus in safely on a predicted EQ, he will be punished (and has a 50% chance to outright kill). I think these scenarios are relevant enough.


And I don't get why the rock move is slashed last. As you say yourself in your analysis, you want your Hippowdon to check Pinsir-M/Talonflame, but I don't see how you could do it with WhirlWind and Toxic. Honnestly, Hippowdon loses a lost of interest in if he's not able to reliably switch in, and force out these threats.

My 2cents ! I hope it helps.
thanks for you input,
i have used stone edge myself and found it to be p very useful against those targets. imo i should either downplay his usefulness against all those threats, while adding comments that to do so he needs stone edge, or simply replace rockslide with stone edge in the moveset. With CB Talonflame, I feel that Rock slide is enough as they don't have HP investment, however against stall breaker talonflame with 176/0/4 defenses, rock slide still KO's 50% of the time seeing if you got him on the swtich, if he's managed to burn you then neither rock slide or stone edge KO's. I'm really not sure what kind of chances you would have against BU talonflame as I haven't been in that exact scenario and it's hard to tell, with the predicted Earthquakes on Roost, althought neither SE or Rock slide kill after one Bulk Up, this is compounded by the use of Wow or Taunt.

I'm looking at Thundurus Calcs and see that LO HP Ice has a 2% chance to 2HKO while SE has a large % to KO after rocks and I'm thinking of the possibility of slashing both rock slide and Stone Edge? After thinking this I know it's already out of the question, I believe from reading the last comments on Hippo's analysis there is a fundamental difference in how Hippowdon can be played in that some ppl like him to be a more passive wall with toxic or whirlwind, while others want to take an aggressive stance against certain threats by using rock slide or even more aggressive with SE. The realest reason imo to run Stone Edge is to OHKO m-Pinsir as with the suggested spread it is the minimum to survive to unboosted Returns. This could be the factor between life and death. However, against Tflame and Thundy I feel rock slide could be enough, or even toxic. Hitting zard y on the switch with SE would also be incredibly satisfying, however the suggested spread is not really meant to take him on, full sp D is and it's listed as an option in OO.

So after saying this, I would be willing to change Rock Slide to Stone Edge but I believe a consensus needs to be reached on how this Hippo should be played. If it's found that full phs Def or full sp D handles the threats you listed better, and that the suggested spread is more of a general wall that uses passive means to get around opponents, then rock slides placement is warranted. I am starting to believe that listing Stone Edge in the Set Details, and changing the wording of the description of Rock Slides target might be the best option.


tl;dr
So after thinking about what you said, I've decided for now to include Stone Edge, while mentioning Rock Slide in set details, but I think there is a fundamental difference on how Hippo is played, between more offensive and stall oriented teams. On a more balanced offense team Stone Edge is great and I have always used over rock slide, however for ppl using Hippo on stall, they have other countermeasures such as skarmory and chansey to take on listed threats, therefore greater utilizing toxic/whirlwind/rock slide. Personally I have been running toxic and it has really been useful as my team appreciates hippo's ability to stall out some non-boosting threats. (a last mon tauntless mandibuzz comes to mind, when i had hippo and cbbnite left, yea they rly should run taunt, as well as hitting lots of mons on the switch with toxic and racking up damage with slack off). I almost think that Stone Edge is asking too much from this spread - I could see it being more useful on full SpD, as you would be able to tank Char Y and Thundurus and nail them with SE, and you would also be covering your weaker defensive side from Talonflame/Pinsir, but maybe that's just me. I'll include it for now, I actually think the way I worded it gets the point across concisely - for someone who recoils at using Stone Edge for their wall, they will also see the mention of Rock slide in the set details if they have ways of handling the other threats and just want consistent, but less, damage. Idk, I mostly agree with you @Remedy, it's just that I remember this argument from the last ( or was it 2 analyses ago?) and I'd like there to be a consensus.
 

Reymedy

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I think you fired straight.
It depends if you want to play your Hippowdon in a balanced team, leaning towards checkings its threats with a mix of pressure & bulk (and then a Rock move to round off the coverage is needed imo). I'm thinking about something like Hippo + Ferro + Lati@s to give a classic example of a defensive core that, imo, works best in balanced/BO teams given how concise and efficient it is.
My opinion is that you'll see more Hippowdons in this kind of teams than in real stall teams, because Hippowdon is a good compromise for a defensive wall, and in Stall teams, you can afford to have several more dedicated physical walls (Quagsire, Skarmory, Chesnaught, Gliscor..).

That's really nitpicky though, and after reading through the analysis I think you explained well which move solves which situation. About the EVs and the Thundurus case, I always make sure that my Hippo is not 2HKO'd after SR by LO Thundurus, which means that you invest about the same amount as Dice (172 to be more precise). I strongly recommend this spread for BO teams because you usually don't have a lot of checks to Thundurus/Manectric in these !
(by the way, you can totally mention how Hippowdown counters Manectric-M !)
 
I've always used Stone Edge over Rock Slide. Although it's decreased in prominence a bit, the main reason to run a Rock-type move is Mega Pinsir, and if you're unable to OHKO that, then you lose to it 1-on-1. I agree with making Stone Edge the first slash, though. Hippowdon's certainly viable in stall teams, but I think his most common role is a catch-all glue for bulky offense. In that framework, Stone Edge is more valuable.

With regards to EV spreads, 252/120/136 Impish ought to be the main one (I think I missed why it's 116/140 instead??), with 252/84/172 Impish mentioned as avoiding the 2HKO from Life Orb Thundurus. However, doing so weakens you enough to have a chance of being OHKOed by +2 Mega Pinsir. And then you can mention fully physically defensive and fully specially defensive as options if that's what's needed as well.
 

Jukain

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I've always used Stone Edge over Rock Slide. Although it's decreased in prominence a bit, the main reason to run a Rock-type move is Mega Pinsir, and if you're unable to OHKO that, then you lose to it 1-on-1. I agree with making Stone Edge the first slash, though. Hippowdon's certainly viable in stall teams, but I think his most common role is a catch-all glue for bulky offense. In that framework, Stone Edge is more valuable.

With regards to EV spreads, 252/120/136 Impish ought to be the main one (I think I missed why it's 116/140 instead??), with 252/84/172 Impish mentioned as avoiding the 2HKO from Life Orb Thundurus. However, doing so weakens you enough to have a chance of being OHKOed by +2 Mega Pinsir. And then you can mention fully physically defensive and fully specially defensive as options if that's what's needed as well.
116+ is a jump point for Defense.
 

Andrew

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I've always used Stone Edge over Rock Slide. Although it's decreased in prominence a bit, the main reason to run a Rock-type move is Mega Pinsir, and if you're unable to OHKO that, then you lose to it 1-on-1. I agree with making Stone Edge the first slash, though. Hippowdon's certainly viable in stall teams, but I think his most common role is a catch-all glue for bulky offense. In that framework, Stone Edge is more valuable.

With regards to EV spreads, 252/120/136 Impish ought to be the main one (I think I missed why it's 116/140 instead??), with 252/84/172 Impish mentioned as avoiding the 2HKO from Life Orb Thundurus. However, doing so weakens you enough to have a chance of being OHKOed by +2 Mega Pinsir. And then you can mention fully physically defensive and fully specially defensive as options if that's what's needed as well.
hmm I'm a bit tentative as to making Stone Edge the first slash, mainly because I have found use with toxic, and Dice has expressed his preference for whirlwind. I think taking out M-Pinsir can be seen as a perk of the main spread as he barely avoids the 2hko, but not a main objective. However it would really suck if hippo were the only mon that could take pinsir on your team and you were running toxic instead, even if the damage could be remedied somewhat by teamates fast priority or resistances. I'll change it to Whirlwind/SE/Toxic, as no one has really said anything about toxic, and I'll try to elaborate on the uses as each one because in the end all 3 moves are viable depending on team build and personal preference.

As to the spread, i'm checking the calc and PS Jukain and its showing that 112 def hits the jump point (i think im reading it right?), while 120 ensures no chance of a M-Pinsir 2hko after rocks. 136 SpD ensures no chance of lefties Aegi KO after rocks, leaving Hippo with 11.9% of 2 hit dying to Thundy. So, I see what you mean here. Jukain, what do you think about using this spread 252/120/136, since the jump point is at 112 and safely living a 2hits from both seems efficient.
 

alexwolf

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I would mention how Toxic makes Hippowdon a much more effective SR setter, as Mandibuzz, Zapdos, Roost + Defog Latias, and Mew can't switch into Hippowdon and Defog against if for free.
 

Super Mario Bro

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IMO, 252 HP / 252 SpDef Careful deserves a mention because it lets Hippo deal with Charizard-Y, Life Orb / Spooky Plate versions of Aegislash, and even Life Orb Lati@s (sans Surf).
 
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alexwolf

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Why is the 252 HP / 120+ Def / 136 SpD spread the main one when the 252 HP / 72+ Def / 184 SpD spread avoids the 2HKO from a very significant threat, LO Thundurus, and no significant reason for 120+ Def has been presented?
 

Albacore

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Why is the 252 HP / 120+ Def / 136 SpD spread the main one when the 252 HP / 72+ Def / 184 SpD spread avoids the 2HKO from a very significant threat, LO Thundurus, and no significant reason for 120+ Def has been presented?
The 252 HP / 120+ Def / 136 SpD spread is used to avoid the 2HKO from Mega-Pinsir's Return, and the OHKO if it's at +2, while also avoiding the 2HKO from Standard Aegislash's Shadow Ball. It should probably be mentioned on the analysis that this spread should be used in conjunction with Stone Edge, since its purpose is to counter Pinsir, and Stone Edge enables Hippowdon to cleanly OHKO it, while Toxic and Whirlwind don't deal with it permanently. If you don't run Stone Edge, you're probably not using Hippowdon as your answer to Pinsir, and should therefore run another spread, probably the 252 HP / 72+ Def / 184 SpD one.
 
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Andrew

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moved stone edge to first slot, mentioned it's synergy with the spread and the Pinsir countering
 
Why is the 252 HP / 120+ Def / 136 SpD spread the main one when the 252 HP / 72+ Def / 184 SpD spread avoids the 2HKO from a very significant threat, LO Thundurus, and no significant reason for 120+ Def has been presented?
Yeah, while 184 Special Defense (I don't think it's that much?) stops LO Thundurus, 120+ Def beats Mega Pinsir, also a very significant threat.
 
IDK lol

it doesn't really counter pinsir.... u should never use hippowdon as ur sole bird check and the spread is situational at best... r u rly gonna have a 100% hippowdon at all times?

i kinda prefer the one i mentioned at first (72 def) but would like other opinions
 

Andrew

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IDK lol

it doesn't really counter pinsir.... u should never use hippowdon as ur sole bird check and the spread is situational at best... r u rly gonna have a 100% hippowdon at all times?

i kinda prefer the one i mentioned at first (72 def) but would like other opinions
I agree with you. It's also much more likely to encounter Thundurus than M-Pinsir lately, and if I'm looking to check/counter Pinsir I will always use a dif mon that does the job easier. I'm willing to change to your spread, and then probably change the last moveslot around again to whirlwind / stone edge / toxic ( if we're going by LO thundurus benchmark, hippo can stall out LO damage with slack off, if they're in one on one he can whirlwind to rack up SR damage, he can hit with stone edge for the KO after LO recoil iirc, or toxic then stall (minus taunt) ). yea, I'd also appreciate opinions before i do this however
 

Jukain

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hm yea i agree with dice. i almost always have hippowdon paired with something like excadrill or talonflame or avkou on offense, and on stall i have things like skarm or zapdos or whatever. because of this i don't think it really needs to counter pinsir, at least from my experience. and hippowdon is one of those pokemon that gets worn down pretty easily, and since it needs to be at full health to deal with pinsir, even having that investment to handle it is pretty situational.

move stone edge back to the last slot with that because it has no chance against pinsir.
 
Why is the 252 HP / 120+ Def / 136 SpD spread the main one when the 252 HP / 72+ Def / 184 SpD spread avoids the 2HKO from a very significant threat, LO Thundurus, and no significant reason for 120+ Def has been presented?
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 136 SpD Hippowdon: 185-218 (44 - 51.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Where exactly is the problem with stoping Thundurus? 136 SpD is more than enough for that, even after rocks thundy only has an 11% chance to 2hko. Surviving that +2 Return in a pinch is far more valuable imo.

On a side note because if find it incredibly funny right now, i suggested a similar spread to be added to the analysis back in Trainer Au´s thread because its better than the full SpD spread, that was 3 freaking months ago and nobody cared. And now you guys catch up and adjust the spread...
 

alexwolf

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252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 136 SpD Hippowdon: 185-218 (44 - 51.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Where exactly is the problem with stoping Thundurus? 136 SpD is more than enough for that, even after rocks thundy only has an 11% chance to 2hko. Surviving that +2 Return in a pinch is far more valuable imo.

On a side note because if find it incredibly funny right now, i suggested a similar spread to be added to the analysis back in Trainer Au´s thread because its better than the full SpD spread, that was 3 freaking months ago and nobody cared. And now you guys catch up and adjust the spread...
I was taking SR into consideration.
 

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