Well since superman doesn't need Kryptonite to die (see: The Death of Superman) and can in fact be defeated by massive amounts of force, and Goku, by the end of GT anyways, is essentially immortal (seriosly, at the end he's one with the dragon-balls or some shit like that, thus-immortal) Goku is the only one who can win.
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Goku Vs. Superman
- Thread starter Curtains
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lol Dragonball
If I'm not mistaken even Krillian was stronger than Goku at one point
Doomsday killed Superman because it was Kryptonian (kind of) and that allows he to pass through Supes's invulnerability, Goku can't do that, and btw he was way weaker in that day, is like comparing the Goku who was killed by Raditz to the SSJ3
Superman is pretty much a Mary Sue (or Gary Stu), he lose when there's no danger, but he always win when he needs to, and if you're beating him he'll just say "lol okay time for a sunbath", fly to the Sun, and not only restore all his HP but also become 10 times stronger, Goku can't live without the sun either so he'll never be retarded enough to blow up it (don't know if he can btw, all his kamehamehas always banished in the sun)
Goku hands down. While Superman may outmatch Goku at first, Superman has one fatal flaw, his morality and refusal to kill his opponents. Goku being a Saiyan, will recover from beating after beating, and come back stronger due to the Saiyan ancestry.
Superman will never kill Goku, just put him into this near death state and Goku will come out stronger. It may take 100 fights to get to a point that he can beat Superman, but once he hits that point Superman will never beat him again and Goku will possibly kill him due to having no moral qualms with killing opponents.
In a one match scenario, it can be a tossup, but if they are allowed to continue forever, Goku will eventually become unbeatable.
If a Saiyan survives a near-death experience through extreme injury to the body, then, when the body recuperates, the Saiyan grows much stronger than they were previously, their body adapting to compensate for the damage dealt. The duration of recovery does not seem to hinder this ability as Saiyans have healed through natural, technological and mystical means and still gained substantial increases in strength.
Superman will never kill Goku, just put him into this near death state and Goku will come out stronger. It may take 100 fights to get to a point that he can beat Superman, but once he hits that point Superman will never beat him again and Goku will possibly kill him due to having no moral qualms with killing opponents.
In a one match scenario, it can be a tossup, but if they are allowed to continue forever, Goku will eventually become unbeatable.
ITT: People lucky enough not to know how bad some comic book writers are in regards to making their characters too strong/overplaying their slight weaknesses.
Superman Prime is canon. Goku would lose IF they fought, instead of becoming best bros like any real crossover would have them.
I should really have saved that image explaining Superman's strength converted into Power Level. It used the average human power level (fuck if I remember if it was ever mentioned in DBZ or if it was just using Hercules power level) and then it used THIS image: http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/8/84876/1747049-superman_lifting_weights._super.jpg
and made the proper conversions. Superman was way beyond SS4 Goku's PL (like not even close iirc), and this isn't even the broken piece of shit that is Superman Prime.
The issue is, Goku destroying the sun (he can't breathe in space, and is pretty much mostly mundane aside from ridiculous powers) doesn't stop Superman Prime, as he's already absorbed so much of the yellow sun to not have his strength affected by such a insignificant fraction. Hell, I'm not sure if Goku has ever shown capability of destroying something like the sun when his "planet destroying ability" is just shooting a beam into the core of a planet. Goku can come back from the dead, but Superman Prime is so strong that his punches warp reality. Goku is now in a reality where he isn't fighting Superman. Superman Prime wins this tussle!
Goku's punches don't even cause tremors felt all over the globe like Thor, so I'm not sure why this is such a famous matchup to talk about. Superman has the advantage of having writers behind him making him nigh-invincible.
Edit: Come at me bro.
Superman Prime is canon. Goku would lose IF they fought, instead of becoming best bros like any real crossover would have them.
I should really have saved that image explaining Superman's strength converted into Power Level. It used the average human power level (fuck if I remember if it was ever mentioned in DBZ or if it was just using Hercules power level) and then it used THIS image: http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/8/84876/1747049-superman_lifting_weights._super.jpg
and made the proper conversions. Superman was way beyond SS4 Goku's PL (like not even close iirc), and this isn't even the broken piece of shit that is Superman Prime.
The issue is, Goku destroying the sun (he can't breathe in space, and is pretty much mostly mundane aside from ridiculous powers) doesn't stop Superman Prime, as he's already absorbed so much of the yellow sun to not have his strength affected by such a insignificant fraction. Hell, I'm not sure if Goku has ever shown capability of destroying something like the sun when his "planet destroying ability" is just shooting a beam into the core of a planet. Goku can come back from the dead, but Superman Prime is so strong that his punches warp reality. Goku is now in a reality where he isn't fighting Superman. Superman Prime wins this tussle!
Goku's punches don't even cause tremors felt all over the globe like Thor, so I'm not sure why this is such a famous matchup to talk about. Superman has the advantage of having writers behind him making him nigh-invincible.
Edit: Come at me bro.
I won't claim to know exactly how the Saiyan improvement works, but how often have they ever lost to an opponent then not been able to beat them after healing? He'd lose to Superman and then his body would be like "I need to be able to beat this guy" then bam. It'd be different if Superman had multiple forms but no dice.
Course after that Story line Superman dies from power overdose.
Course then he makes superman 2 juice or something and turns into the sun
Uhhh, isn't Superman Prime evil? Also, is Superman Prime unaffected by kryptonite?
Like Superman stayed down lol. Super Cancer is nothing to joke about, after all. Also, that isn't Superman Prime, who wrecks shit.
Actually, Pre-Crisis Superman is also unbelievably overpowered as well. You have him sneezing away solar systems, pulling planets, etc etc.
Pre-Crisis Superman and Superman Prime >>>>> Goku
Current Superman could probably lose to Goku, however. If we're talking about them both at their prime (lol) and at the highest peak either have been at, it's not fair and you should all feel bad.
EDIT:
No, that's Superboy Prime. I'm talking about Superman from DC One Million.
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Kal-El_%28DC_One_Million%29
Also, who knows if he's affected by kryptonite. You can only make assumptions here. The thing is, has Goku ever been shown to be bright? Has he ever been shown preparing to fight an opponent by exploiting their weakness beyond just working out? Are we assuming he's got prep time to learn up on Superman AND that he's going to utilize this time?
Probably not. Goku is an idiot.
Yep, Superboy Prime is a bad guy from an alternate earth, that oft referenced out of context panel isn't canon (and even in the panel it is said that this is out of Superman's normal abilities), and anything that happened before Crisis on Infinite Earths was another Superman that is dead now. Sure you can make some monster Superman with the best qualities of over half a century of inconsistent writing, but Goku constantly gain power just as a result of his manga's story structure.
I'm not even sold on Goku beating current Superman, but in a matchup versus each other we can assume any course of action the two could make. Superman could very easily ignore Goku, and re-enact the timeline of DC One Million, leaving him as Superman Prime. If people are giving Goku the supposed smarts to gather intel and figure out and use Kryptonite against Superman, it's more than fair to give Superman the easy choice of powering up (and seriously, Goku gets episodes to power up, why can't Supes?).
If you want to discuss Goku as his strongest versus Superman at one of his weakest incarnations, feel free. Just accept that both of them at their prime = a lopsided matchup in favor of Superman.
The thing is superman is possibly the smartest fictional character ever invented, aside from other DC characters that we only think are smarter than superman because we are basically told so. You can bet if they have to fight, he will know damn well about Goku's Saiyan recovery ability, and he will have some stupid (but absolutely flawless) plan to overcome it.
I worry I am coming across as someone who actually knows shit about superman. It doesnt take more than a couple of glances at superman comics across a lifetime to realise how ridiculous this guy actually is.
Have a nice day.
I worry I am coming across as someone who actually knows shit about superman. It doesnt take more than a couple of glances at superman comics across a lifetime to realise how ridiculous this guy actually is.
Have a nice day.
I want to discuss canon Goku versus canon Superman. You are not bringing up more powerful versions of Superman. You are bringing up people who aren't Superman, not officially anyway. And I do realize this depowers Goku somewhat as well, but I still think it's a fight Goku can win. Certainly not because of kryptonite, I don't buy that.
It doesn't even really come down to the two characters persay. I think there's a dramatic difference in the realism portrayed in the DCU vs. in Dragonball. It's the same argument I made in middle school saying that Goku could beat a Gundam (and I love G Gundam far more than I love Dragonball). You have one series that aims for realism (ok, we were talking about Wing) and one series that takes realism and says "fuck that". Goku's power doesn't have to be realistic and never for a second tried to be. Now the DCU varies per hero but on average I'd say it's somewhere in the middle. Superman exists on the far end obviously but the current canon at least tries to rein him in. Whereas Akira Toriyama doesn't give a shit.
It doesn't even really come down to the two characters persay. I think there's a dramatic difference in the realism portrayed in the DCU vs. in Dragonball. It's the same argument I made in middle school saying that Goku could beat a Gundam (and I love G Gundam far more than I love Dragonball). You have one series that aims for realism (ok, we were talking about Wing) and one series that takes realism and says "fuck that". Goku's power doesn't have to be realistic and never for a second tried to be. Now the DCU varies per hero but on average I'd say it's somewhere in the middle. Superman exists on the far end obviously but the current canon at least tries to rein him in. Whereas Akira Toriyama doesn't give a shit.
I mean, if we're going by what canonically happens, then superman will kick goku's ass until all his friends gather dragon balls and wish him away or he creates a spirit bomb for three episodes while superman is distracted or he'll just disappear into the hyperbolic time chamber for 500 years until he's at like ssj20 or something.
Expanding on my point about how little regard for realism Dragonball has; I have no reason to believe that Goku couldn't train for 10 minutes and then develop a kryptonite spirit bomb. Are we forgetting that he learned how to read minds the same way? Superman blowing so hard he freezes a galaxy is far fetched, but how does training at high gravity make you a telepath? Because Goku is fucking crazy as shit, that's how.
Yeah Slowku is usually pretty dumb, especially for letting Vegeta, a guy who wanted to come back and destroy the world, live essentially for his own future amusement. I thought that was kinda short sighted and selfish for a guy who calls himself the protector of Earth or whatever (That's okay though because Vegeta makes Dragonball Z twice as awesome) but there are instances of Goku thinking fast throughout the cannon. For example, one of his foes suddenly attempted to change bodies with him and Goku trolled his world by making him switch bodies with a frog instead XD
If we go all the way to GT, Base Kid Goku destroys everything. ULTRA SUPER DYNAMITE SPIRIT BOMB.
"Canon" (I'm using this as Current) Superman still probably win's out over Goku. The issue with "Realism" vs Whatever you label Goku under is that to have a real discussion about their abilities, one has to be put on the others level. If we try to rein in Goku and treat him more realistic than what the show actually entails, then he gets blown out of the water for just being a human with some ki energy/teleport shenanigans. If we make Goku less "realistic", then it's hard to actually compare then because at the end of the day you have writers writing in reasons to make matchups end up with Superman on top or writers writing in reasons to make Goku on top, in their respective universes. Both end up being stupidly strong when you throw out any sort of realism, as they both have a grab-bag of powers AND writers backing them up.
If you try and lean towards a less "realistic" matchup, then it's mostly fan wankery at the end of the day. "Goku keeps coming back, and this time he blows up the Sun!" "He would, but Superman already blew up the Earth, and Goku can't breathe in space!" "Hah, Goku already instant transmission-ed away" etc.
In a more "realistic" matchup versus the two, people neglect how nearly infallible Superman is, even the current one. He's super smart, super fast, super strong, super durable, and has more powers than words in this thread (obvious exaggeration, he just has a lot more than Goku has ki tricks). Then you have Goku, who just muscles his way through issues and powers up for longer than he should, just to be outgunned by Superman's powers.
If you use a more subdued approach to the fight, Superman wins.
If you let loose in what they do, Goku probably wins the fight.
Neither would probably fight, since their both big moralfags, realistically.
In the end, the only real losers in the matchup would be us :(
If you try and lean towards a less "realistic" matchup, then it's mostly fan wankery at the end of the day. "Goku keeps coming back, and this time he blows up the Sun!" "He would, but Superman already blew up the Earth, and Goku can't breathe in space!" "Hah, Goku already instant transmission-ed away" etc.
In a more "realistic" matchup versus the two, people neglect how nearly infallible Superman is, even the current one. He's super smart, super fast, super strong, super durable, and has more powers than words in this thread (obvious exaggeration, he just has a lot more than Goku has ki tricks). Then you have Goku, who just muscles his way through issues and powers up for longer than he should, just to be outgunned by Superman's powers.
If you use a more subdued approach to the fight, Superman wins.
If you let loose in what they do, Goku probably wins the fight.
Neither would probably fight, since their both big moralfags, realistically.
In the end, the only real losers in the matchup would be us :(
Why? Goku isn't a human, and neither is Superman so why is this needed to put them on even ground. And besides, the fact that they aren't on even ground is the whole point. All of Superman's flaws and all of Goku's strengths. Is it fair? Fuck no. Blame Akira Toriyama for inventing power creep. If we do as you wish and have Goku against Silver Age Superman, that's an even fight with much bullshittery on both sides (and Supes would probably win that one).
Oh, and they'd fight. Goku does fight people just for the fuck of it. Remember, it's the whole reason he let Vegeta go in the first place.
The fact that Superman Prime isn't on even ground with Goku is the whole point. Is it fair? Fuck no. Blame DC writers.
You missed the point of what I meant by even ground. I didn't mean nerfing on or the other directly to balance it out. Sure, Goku is a Saiyan. Doesn't change the fact that he's got all the weaknesses of pretty much any mammal in that it can only survive in certain environments (won't live for long in space). We take the good and the bad together. Replace human with saiyan and my point still stands.
My point is that you don't need to nerf them to put them on equal footing. However, you DO have to interpret them in a similar fashion, whether that means treating them as how they would react in such a scenario or blowing realism out of the water and having them both make the most exaggerated moves and stretching the extent of their powers tenuously. If you treat their characters and their powers in a matchup, I believe Supes (current, that is, most other ones win hands down) has the upper hand as his powers are actually more useful and he's smart enough to utilize the right combination of powers and tactics. Goku has some potent powers, but when not stretching what he can do, he's, for the most part, just a guy with a buttload of fire-power behind him. He has some nifty things, such as teleporting around, but he lacks the reactions to keep up with teleporting from each of Superman's max speed attacks and he lacks the intelligence to make enough space to set the pace of the battle. Like you said, Goku is about fighting, so he's more apt to keep the fight relatively close, in the range of current Superman at max speed and pretty much all of his powers. We're talking reasonable Flash speed attacks (not speedforce BS speed), which trumps the blur they showed in the manga/anime. Hell, if you look at their straight out strengths, that panel I posted can still be used as a reference; his strength nearly quintupled, and the image I mentioned about PLs but can't find of it breaking down his power level still had Superman pre-super cancer as having a higher Power Level. I'll post it if I can find it. Bleh.
Of course, you can reply that Goku gets stronger by scraping it out, and that even if Superman wrecks him in one clean hit he can come back to life stronger, but that's stretching what a realistic fight between them would actually entail, and I could argue that the match WAS that one bout. Then we get into the other scenario I mentioned, where you throw realism out the door and have them do stuff that they maybe wouldn't want to do or wouldn't think about doing, and powering up to obscene levels. If that's how you want to discuss the two of them, feel free, but it's not the better way to do it. It's just a different way to look at them fight.
To reiterate:
Current Superman > Goku in a reasonable test of their characters/powers.
Current Superman < Goku in a stretch of what they can/would do.
Pre-Crisis Superman/DC one Million Supes >>>>> Goku.
and I haven't really heard a good reason why this matchup can't be about the upper level Superman incarnations vs Goku, aside from dismissing it as not canon. This has the issue of different definitions of canon being possibly used, as it's clearly working under one definition and not the other. I figure it's only being dismissed because it's not "fair" to Goku.
In summary.... deal with it Goku nerds 8)
Because, and this should make me a DC nerd far more than it makes me a Dragonball nerd, Superman Prime and Superman are not the same characters. They aren't the same people. In fact, Superman and Silver Age Superman are literally not the same people; they meet eachother. So when someone says "Goku vs. Superman" and that's all the clarification you get, canon is what most people are gonna be familiar with faster. Why? Because it's not "Superman was more powerful" or "What-if Superman was more powerful", the question is, "Is Superman more powerful?". And he isn't.
Also, Power Levels are pretty much bullshit and any attempt to debate them even within DBZ is subject enormous fanwankery.
You keep talking about the sheer power of Superman and you're right, but there's so much I don't think you understand even fundamentally about Dragonball. This isn't me complimenting Goku, this is a serious criticism of the story. Even as far back as Dragonball, before Z, Goku reached a point where he could move faster than the human eye. Then throughout Z he gets faster. You think his attacks just kinda look fast? Now imagine them taking into account the fact that they are about 1000 times faster and can't be seen by the human eye. That's not flash level. That is stupid level. But that's the DBZ universe. And that shit ain't at all limited to Goku.
Also, Power Levels are pretty much bullshit and any attempt to debate them even within DBZ is subject enormous fanwankery.
You keep talking about the sheer power of Superman and you're right, but there's so much I don't think you understand even fundamentally about Dragonball. This isn't me complimenting Goku, this is a serious criticism of the story. Even as far back as Dragonball, before Z, Goku reached a point where he could move faster than the human eye. Then throughout Z he gets faster. You think his attacks just kinda look fast? Now imagine them taking into account the fact that they are about 1000 times faster and can't be seen by the human eye. That's not flash level. That is stupid level. But that's the DBZ universe. And that shit ain't at all limited to Goku.
Bro, everyone watched DBZ. Also, don't use Flash lightly. Goku's attacks aren't faster, or even nearing that speed. Maybe Flash at his most tame, I could maybe see, but I think you're grossly overestimating the DBverse in what actually happens.
Also, Superman Prime is pretty much the same character up to a certain point as current Supes. What splits their characters is literally the circumstance, but it is entirely within the realm of possibility of what Superman could do if he felt like it (and Superman is wicked smart, so seeing Goku get up to his level could easily make him approach this whole thing differently, say, like becoming Superman Prime). Of course, this falls into the less "realism" inclined option, but everything is fair game.
Expediency of character recognition doesn't matter when someone, ANYONE, gets into the nitty gritty. I'm within reason of the broadness of the topic to suggest any incarnation of Superman I please, because when presented with a broad question as such I can approach it however I please. This isn't really a wrong approach to the question, to bring up other Superman entities or past Superman abilities. The current one could also prove to be a separate time line when it concludes, so it's fair game to use one that already concluded.
However, I want to tactfully disengage because this is practically fanwankery in itself between us. One last thing I think needs to be explored when we talk about Superman vs Goku dick measuring contest would be...
Whose dick is bigger?
Also, Superman Prime is pretty much the same character up to a certain point as current Supes. What splits their characters is literally the circumstance, but it is entirely within the realm of possibility of what Superman could do if he felt like it (and Superman is wicked smart, so seeing Goku get up to his level could easily make him approach this whole thing differently, say, like becoming Superman Prime). Of course, this falls into the less "realism" inclined option, but everything is fair game.
Expediency of character recognition doesn't matter when someone, ANYONE, gets into the nitty gritty. I'm within reason of the broadness of the topic to suggest any incarnation of Superman I please, because when presented with a broad question as such I can approach it however I please. This isn't really a wrong approach to the question, to bring up other Superman entities or past Superman abilities. The current one could also prove to be a separate time line when it concludes, so it's fair game to use one that already concluded.
However, I want to tactfully disengage because this is practically fanwankery in itself between us. One last thing I think needs to be explored when we talk about Superman vs Goku dick measuring contest would be...
Whose dick is bigger?