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General Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter Matthew
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The thing about voltturn is that unless your team is weak to voltturn (not a great idea) or your team has absolutely no offensive momentum, the voltturn player will have to outpredict you in order to win. A lot of people think voltturn is cheap (me included), but in the end if you have a solid team the voltturn player is going to have to outpredict you when deciding wether to uturn or attack and if they win thats fair enough because they outplayed you. In fact an easy way to beat voltturn is to get up sr and to have protect on your blissey/heatran/gliscor, this will easily wear down the opponent and remove the need to make risky predictions. However watch out for expert belt landorus its on every good voltturn team, because it just does its job incredibly well.
lol this made me laugh :D
Just to restart discussion here, what do you guys think of Lucario?
It's just amazing this meta, with an insane amount of teams being weak to it.
True, there ARE some counters...depending on one move change, lol.
Espeed+BP might look weird but is surprisingly effective. Offensive teams that lack a somewhat bulky attacker will just tremble at it.
Stall must have either Gliscor, Jellicent, Slowbro or Tangrowth to beat it, Tenta can do too, but cannot be worn down to the point of 70% (unless you run max hp/max defense bold for some reason).
And no, Skarm won't do. Like at all. It gets OHKO'd after SR at +2 many, many times (speaking of the Physically Defensive version, btw). If it does somehow survive, it will be at 2%, probably WWing you out.
In short, use the thing. Pairs up nicely with SubDD Gyara with Intimidate, especially against Volt-Turn. Rotom-W is OHKO'd by Espeed at +2 after SR (maybe without that too), which leaves Scizor, who'll probably aim to revenge after a CC, at which point you go to Gyara, set up a sub and continue to wreck your opponent.
Obviously you need to be able to find an opening for a set up turn, but after that...
It's just amazing this meta, with an insane amount of teams being weak to it.
True, there ARE some counters...depending on one move change, lol.
Espeed+BP might look weird but is surprisingly effective. Offensive teams that lack a somewhat bulky attacker will just tremble at it.
Stall must have either Gliscor, Jellicent, Slowbro or Tangrowth to beat it, Tenta can do too, but cannot be worn down to the point of 70% (unless you run max hp/max defense bold for some reason).
And no, Skarm won't do. Like at all. It gets OHKO'd after SR at +2 many, many times (speaking of the Physically Defensive version, btw). If it does somehow survive, it will be at 2%, probably WWing you out.
In short, use the thing. Pairs up nicely with SubDD Gyara with Intimidate, especially against Volt-Turn. Rotom-W is OHKO'd by Espeed at +2 after SR (maybe without that too), which leaves Scizor, who'll probably aim to revenge after a CC, at which point you go to Gyara, set up a sub and continue to wreck your opponent.
Obviously you need to be able to find an opening for a set up turn, but after that...
Hippowdon walls all versions nicely. If you run gliscor + Jellicent you run literally no risk at all.
What I fear is nasty plot lucario, I have nightmares about the day everyone realizes its special attack is stronger than it's physical and nothing in the metagame can wall it.
What I fear is nasty plot lucario, I have nightmares about the day everyone realizes its special attack is stronger than it's physical and nothing in the metagame can wall it.
That fear goes to waste when you realize that Nasty Plot Lucario "works", but just doesn't keep up with the metagame due to a heavy reliance on certain moves (Vaccuum Wave ain't getting past Latios or even Alakazam) and inability to hurt most significant threats in the metagame (+1 SD Lucario KOes SpD Jirachi in a heartbeat. +2 NP Lucario doesn't).
EDIT: Also, the issue with using Celebi against VoltTurn is that these kinds of teams are always prepared for it, already aware that Celebi commonly runs a Grass-type move + Hidden Power Fire. For this reason, a user of U-turn with an Expert Belt or Choice Scarf (mainly Landorus or Hydreigon) will always be there to sponge either move and reverse the momentum against Celebi's team. It's frustrating when you consider that Landorus is ALWAYS faster than Celebi, and Hydreigon walls everything Celebi has except Hidden Power Ice.
EDIT: Also, the issue with using Celebi against VoltTurn is that these kinds of teams are always prepared for it, already aware that Celebi commonly runs a Grass-type move + Hidden Power Fire. For this reason, a user of U-turn with an Expert Belt or Choice Scarf (mainly Landorus or Hydreigon) will always be there to sponge either move and reverse the momentum against Celebi's team. It's frustrating when you consider that Landorus is ALWAYS faster than Celebi, and Hydreigon walls everything Celebi has except Hidden Power Ice.
Despite a lower Atk stat, it's more than made up for by Lucario's movepool.
Nasty Plot sets have to use either the 70 BP Aura Sphere, or the 120 BP, 70 Accuracy Focus Miss.
Swords Dance sets get the 100% accurate 120 BP Close Combat. Defense Drops really don't mean anything to Lucario's defenses.
Nasty Plot sets get the 60 BP factoring STAB Vaccum Wave. Swords Dance gets the 80 BP Extremespeed, which also has +2 Priority.
Lucario's 5 Base higher Sp.Atk doesn't make up for the massive difference in the power/accuracy of Lucario's physical moves.
alphatron
Volt turn in every tier! I'm in despair!
+2 LO hi jump kick vs. 252/252 impish hippowdon: 82.1% - 96.7%
75.7% - 89.3% is the amount that close combat does. I've been using hi jump kick over it for a while now just for the stealth rock fringe that it offers me, considering the fact that hazards decide weather or not lucario lives or dies.
Which 'mon are the standard VoltTurn teams using for hazards. Tyranitar? Seems like if you put a counter to Ttar with SR out as your lead, that'd do a good job.
alphatron
Volt turn in every tier! I'm in despair!
In my last battle yesterday, I was sweeping with dd dragonite under sunlight. I used outrage against a full hp celebi. It lived with 4% of its hp and used reflect. Then terrakion came in as I was still locked into outrage, lost 59% of its health and ko'd me. My opponent told me to get at him for not having hazards down.
It says a lot when you don't have a spinner on your team and enemy your opponent starts doing ridiculous things with their sr setter. Heatran will sac itself against politoed just to lag down stealth rock. Tyranitar will stay in on iron head Jirachi. It may flinch but it has a 40% chance to lay down sr. I've fought multiple teams that had multiple stealth rock setters (record is four. Dude must have really hated volcorona).
The most important hazard is stealth rock, then an enormous gap, then spikes, then the UU tier, and then toxic spikes. In general, hazards are important for keeping momentum and punishing your opponent for switching Pokemon. The only teams I don't bother using sr against these days are the HO teams without volcorona, dragonite, or Salamence. Even then, I end up wishing I used sr when I use an attack that puts my opponent at under 10% of their hp.
Edit: There are no stealth rock setters aside from Tyranitar himself who counter Tyranitar or will even scare him out of the lead position, save for donphan and non poison heal gliscor.
It says a lot when you don't have a spinner on your team and enemy your opponent starts doing ridiculous things with their sr setter. Heatran will sac itself against politoed just to lag down stealth rock. Tyranitar will stay in on iron head Jirachi. It may flinch but it has a 40% chance to lay down sr. I've fought multiple teams that had multiple stealth rock setters (record is four. Dude must have really hated volcorona).
The most important hazard is stealth rock, then an enormous gap, then spikes, then the UU tier, and then toxic spikes. In general, hazards are important for keeping momentum and punishing your opponent for switching Pokemon. The only teams I don't bother using sr against these days are the HO teams without volcorona, dragonite, or Salamence. Even then, I end up wishing I used sr when I use an attack that puts my opponent at under 10% of their hp.
Edit: There are no stealth rock setters aside from Tyranitar himself who counter Tyranitar or will even scare him out of the lead position, save for donphan and non poison heal gliscor.
alphatron
Volt turn in every tier! I'm in despair!
Considering the fact that people willingly and deliberately switch Tyranitar into heatran earth power just use stealth rock, no heatran wouldn't scare Tyranitar out.
I forgot about infernape though. If you're willing to sacrifice a moveslots, he does the job.
I forgot about infernape though. If you're willing to sacrifice a moveslots, he does the job.
You could probably scare Ttar out with Mamoswine or Metagross then set up rocks on the switch.
Thing is, without a boosting item neither can get actually get a OHKO on a Tyranitar with max hp investment.
Thing is, without a boosting item neither can get actually get a OHKO on a Tyranitar with max hp investment.
I've always thought he was too frail for this meta, but I've been having a blast getting Weavile into my teams lately.
Mainly as a late game cleaner and revenger but he's great for those T-tar leads that are stupid enough to stay in and eat a Low Kick.
He's not a hammer like Terrakion, but a surgical tool that you can slip in and remove threats with, and is a great Scizor lure.
Mainly as a late game cleaner and revenger but he's great for those T-tar leads that are stupid enough to stay in and eat a Low Kick.
He's not a hammer like Terrakion, but a surgical tool that you can slip in and remove threats with, and is a great Scizor lure.
Exactly hazards win games.
Not only do they guarantee 1 and 2hkoes. They also put tremendous pressure on your opponent and make them think twice about who they are going to switch into and whether or not the can survive the hit. It really puts counters in an awkward position where if you get your layers up they are no longer counters.
All 3 of those pokemon are weak to one of rotoms moves. You can defeat jellicent by using volt turn and thunderbolt on your moveset. I don't know why people use volt turn as there only electric move because it can make it very easy for water types with high special defense or sub to counter it.
Some other possible counters include celebi and gastrodon. Celebi loses to signal beam and gastrodon looses to hp grass. I think the best counter to rotom is virizion. It still has problems with hp fire and ice but its high special defense makes it not so bad.
Never seen a Rotom-W run Hydro Pump/Volt Switch/T-bolt/Signal Beam/HP Grass/HP Fire
But seriously, they always run Hydro pump/Volt Switch/HP Fire or Ice/Trick so Gastrodon, Celebi, etc. are generally very safe switch-ins.
This is why you have 5 other pokemon.
I think he was just trying to say that Celebi, Latios, etc. aren't always guaranteed a safe switch in...
We treat a lot of things as 100% counters when they really aren't. Example is Blissey coming in on Latios when Specs Psyshock just rapes her.
This is true, weavile is great against the meta right now. It has good attack, great moves/STABs, and it's insanely fast. I lost my scarf ttar trying to superpower one a couple days ago. Good thing i had conk (also great for antimeta) on my team lol
I can't see how Weavile gets any further than Scizor and a combination of your typical Scarf user and all the team traits of Sand/Rain w/ Steel-types. It may work well in tandem with Magnezone, but for the most part I would almost always opt for Mamoswine; in most cases, it's the superior option of the two.
Weavile plays kind of like mamo, but with dark-type attacks and low kick for ttar :/
Honestly for most intents and purposes, i absolutely agree with this, mamo is an amazing pokemon and has a much larger niche with more things that it can do, and earthquake stab is great. Weavile simply performs extremely well in one very small role.
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