For the people saying Nitro Charge will amount to nothing:
Remember Charge Beam? Yeah. Except it boosts speed rather than Sp. Atk.
Remember Charge Beam? Yeah. Except it boosts speed rather than Sp. Atk.
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Emboar
- Thread starter Lord Feraligatr
- Start date
Drifblim has like base 150 HP, does that mean Drifblim is bulky?
EvilMario and a few other guys said:
Just to help settle this, here's a sample calculation.Jadex and a few other guys said:
Ambipom Return vs 4/0 Arcanine = 52% - 61%
Ambipom Return vs 4/0 Emboar = 54% - 64%
So, when running an offensive spread, Emboar is slightly less bulky than Arcanine (without factoring in Intimidate). I'll leave that to the reader to decide whether that makes him bulky or not.
Uhm obviously Emboar can kill more things with +1 speed. Nobody can argue with that. The question marks above its utility still remain though. If you want to have a check to the many speed uppers in the metagame, one would usually require a Scarf user, I mean you can't rely on priority to check Ononokuso, Urugamosu, Gyarados and Tyranitar all at once. If you were to scarf Emboar, you are left with no answers to them and having multiple scarfers can open up a lot more holes. My point is just that if I were to use a Scarfer, Emboar would not be my first choice.
Separately, regarding Nitro Charge - I agree there are many Pokemon Emboar can switch into and net a boost on the switch, but there are still a few issues. In the first place, the opponent is going to go into something that can actually handle it, could be Rotom-W or Goggles Starmie or Kurimugan or anything. In that case Emboar is being forced out having dealt out nothing but a 50 base power move. If I knew I had one free turn to do anything I want, I would much rather let loose with a CB Flare Blitz compared to a meek Nitro Charge.
Even then, Emboar isn't getting to sweep with a +1 Spe because there exist sufficient checks. Or course, there are situations such as late game where getting a boost would be really beneficial and can allow Emboar to clean up. But with coverage limited by two Fire moves and the fact that its speed still isn't high enough (and no priority), its effectiveness might still be muted compared to established late-game sweepers.
EDIT: eh what does Nitro Charge have to do with Charge Beam
Separately, regarding Nitro Charge - I agree there are many Pokemon Emboar can switch into and net a boost on the switch, but there are still a few issues. In the first place, the opponent is going to go into something that can actually handle it, could be Rotom-W or Goggles Starmie or Kurimugan or anything. In that case Emboar is being forced out having dealt out nothing but a 50 base power move. If I knew I had one free turn to do anything I want, I would much rather let loose with a CB Flare Blitz compared to a meek Nitro Charge.
Even then, Emboar isn't getting to sweep with a +1 Spe because there exist sufficient checks. Or course, there are situations such as late game where getting a boost would be really beneficial and can allow Emboar to clean up. But with coverage limited by two Fire moves and the fact that its speed still isn't high enough (and no priority), its effectiveness might still be muted compared to established late-game sweepers.
EDIT: eh what does Nitro Charge have to do with Charge Beam
This exactly.
Just because Scarf Emboar can get the jump on something does not make it a useful set, when compared to everything else that can use a Scarf.
Nitro Charge Emboar is also outclassed by a whole bunch of things as a sweeper.
CB is his best set because he isn't so badly outclassed at it.
The people who are like "Don't doubt Nitro Charge" should really pay more attention instead of throwing out blank statements.
Alright, here is where I see Emboar fitting in:
He is much too slow and easily countered to do anything useful early in the game. I do approve of Nitro Boost on him, however, not only because it frees up the spot that would be taken by Choice Scarf (which I personally am not a fan of), but because of where in a battle he'd be best--that is, to say, cleaning things up. Emboar would be somewhat as a last resort "I've put a pretty big dent in my opponent's team but everyone except for Emboar (who hasn't seen any action so far) is pretty banged up, and would probaly fall to that one strong, priority Pokemon (probably Scizor, if he's still popular)" kind of deal. Since, by this time, you've seen the entirety of your opponent's team (which will be automatically, if shoddy 2 is true to B/W), you can take out whatever washing machines or other potential threats to Emboar with priority, and once they're out of the picture, either do as much damage as you can if you suspect a set-up, or switch in Emboar (which only takes normal damage from SR, if they're even still in there).
I think a bit of a bulkier EV spread may be appropriate, with enough speed applied to outpace base 120 speed Pokemon after a Nitro Boost, considering there is enough damage spread about to OHKO things with one of the weight-based attacks or whatever you have as your primary damaging moves, but that there might be a few Pokemon that can shut you down if they all outspeed you (putting dents into Emboar, and, ultimately, taking him out before he can atack).
I haven't really looked at every single new Pokemon and what changes have been made to the old ones, but with what I know now, this is how I see Emboar fitting into my team:
Emboar @ [I'm not too sure what the new items are, heard the ones from D/P/Pt are gone] with +Attack or +Speed nature
Sufficient EVs to survive any unboosted priority attack after SR damage is applied as any unboosted attack with BP below 100 coming from a base 115 Atk stat, outspeed neutral base 120s, and OHKO Scizor with Nitro Boost (or Heat Stamp, if that's asking too much)
-Nitro Boost
-Heat Stamp/Heavy Bomber
-Earthquake
-Wild Bolt
So, effectively, Emboar could come in after your opponent faints one of your weakened Pokemon (preferrably with something weak to Fire), and, assuming that anything that doesn't take at least neutral damage from Nitro Boost is dead and everything else is injured, you could do some damage while also upping your speed, and sweep up with Heat Stamp/Heavy Bomber, Earthquake, and Wild Bolt for coverage.
What also caught my eye is that Emboar learns Cheer Up, Boiling Water, and Gyro Ball. As I am primarily a Doubles kind of guy, I could see Emboar fitting in with a TR team, or perhaps a hybrid TR/Sun team (if he also carried Solar Beam). While your other Pokemon sets up Trick Room, Emboar could Cheer Up once, and, if he can afford it, twice while your other Pokemon (or perhaps a new one if you're using a suicide Trick Room lead like Banette) sets up Sunny Day. At +2 Atk, +2 Sp. Atk, and reversed speed, you now have a very versatile sweeper/wall-breaker on your hands. This, of course, is just something I whipped up, and it may be situational, but I'll most certainly be trying it out.
Hell, even if it's just in UU, I think Emboar can shine.
He is much too slow and easily countered to do anything useful early in the game. I do approve of Nitro Boost on him, however, not only because it frees up the spot that would be taken by Choice Scarf (which I personally am not a fan of), but because of where in a battle he'd be best--that is, to say, cleaning things up. Emboar would be somewhat as a last resort "I've put a pretty big dent in my opponent's team but everyone except for Emboar (who hasn't seen any action so far) is pretty banged up, and would probaly fall to that one strong, priority Pokemon (probably Scizor, if he's still popular)" kind of deal. Since, by this time, you've seen the entirety of your opponent's team (which will be automatically, if shoddy 2 is true to B/W), you can take out whatever washing machines or other potential threats to Emboar with priority, and once they're out of the picture, either do as much damage as you can if you suspect a set-up, or switch in Emboar (which only takes normal damage from SR, if they're even still in there).
I think a bit of a bulkier EV spread may be appropriate, with enough speed applied to outpace base 120 speed Pokemon after a Nitro Boost, considering there is enough damage spread about to OHKO things with one of the weight-based attacks or whatever you have as your primary damaging moves, but that there might be a few Pokemon that can shut you down if they all outspeed you (putting dents into Emboar, and, ultimately, taking him out before he can atack).
I haven't really looked at every single new Pokemon and what changes have been made to the old ones, but with what I know now, this is how I see Emboar fitting into my team:
Emboar @ [I'm not too sure what the new items are, heard the ones from D/P/Pt are gone] with +Attack or +Speed nature
Sufficient EVs to survive any unboosted priority attack after SR damage is applied as any unboosted attack with BP below 100 coming from a base 115 Atk stat, outspeed neutral base 120s, and OHKO Scizor with Nitro Boost (or Heat Stamp, if that's asking too much)
-Nitro Boost
-Heat Stamp/Heavy Bomber
-Earthquake
-Wild Bolt
So, effectively, Emboar could come in after your opponent faints one of your weakened Pokemon (preferrably with something weak to Fire), and, assuming that anything that doesn't take at least neutral damage from Nitro Boost is dead and everything else is injured, you could do some damage while also upping your speed, and sweep up with Heat Stamp/Heavy Bomber, Earthquake, and Wild Bolt for coverage.
What also caught my eye is that Emboar learns Cheer Up, Boiling Water, and Gyro Ball. As I am primarily a Doubles kind of guy, I could see Emboar fitting in with a TR team, or perhaps a hybrid TR/Sun team (if he also carried Solar Beam). While your other Pokemon sets up Trick Room, Emboar could Cheer Up once, and, if he can afford it, twice while your other Pokemon (or perhaps a new one if you're using a suicide Trick Room lead like Banette) sets up Sunny Day. At +2 Atk, +2 Sp. Atk, and reversed speed, you now have a very versatile sweeper/wall-breaker on your hands. This, of course, is just something I whipped up, and it may be situational, but I'll most certainly be trying it out.
Hell, even if it's just in UU, I think Emboar can shine.
The closest Fire starter we can compare Emboar is with Blaziken ...
Blaziken has higher speed and 5 more defense and sp.defense .
Emboar has higher attack (by 3-.-) and owning Blaziken by HP .
And then the movesets for Emboar is also quite impressive .
Wild Bolt and Flare Blitz for coverage .
But then , the recoil could really kill Emboar I think .
So running Bulky isn't really a great option as Emboar will die sooner or later -.-"
For speed , it can't outrun others but it might worth a try with either Nitro Charge ( to charge its speed ) or Choice Scarf directly .
However, beware of Heatran or Flashfire switch in for Nitro Charge .
Maybe it can't do well in OU , but definitely a great candidate for UU or NU .
Blaziken has higher speed and 5 more defense and sp.defense .
Emboar has higher attack (by 3-.-) and owning Blaziken by HP .
And then the movesets for Emboar is also quite impressive .
Wild Bolt and Flare Blitz for coverage .
But then , the recoil could really kill Emboar I think .
So running Bulky isn't really a great option as Emboar will die sooner or later -.-"
For speed , it can't outrun others but it might worth a try with either Nitro Charge ( to charge its speed ) or Choice Scarf directly .
However, beware of Heatran or Flashfire switch in for Nitro Charge .
Maybe it can't do well in OU , but definitely a great candidate for UU or NU .
Yeah, I could see using Emboar as clean-up rather than a main sweeper, since even with CS he's not moving terribly fast anyway. Nitro Charge gives him a decent move to pick off weakened opponents, and the speed boosts will help him clean up other trash.
The Cheer Up thing is nice too, especially considering he learns Boiling Water (lol fire-type learning water-move wat?) It's a great move to surprise opponents who think switching in Ground-types gives them a reliable counter.
The Cheer Up thing is nice too, especially considering he learns Boiling Water (lol fire-type learning water-move wat?) It's a great move to surprise opponents who think switching in Ground-types gives them a reliable counter.
Emboar's role is as a bulky user of Choice Band, that is all. It doesn't get the moves to effectively mixed sweep like Infernape or Blaziken, it lacks a good fighting attack to abuse, and attempting a Nitro Charge sweep leaves it outclassed by Blaziken. It's wide movepool is what will distinguish it, as well as its bulk and HP.
Emboar@Choice Band
Brave; 252 HP / 252 Atk / 6 SpA
Wild Volt
Flare Blitz
Stone Edge
Boiling Water / HP Ice
The nature and EVs give Emboar as much bulk and physical attacking power as possible, while is important given his physical inclination. Flare Blitz is obvious STAB with high base power, while Wild Volt covers flying- and water-types in a single move (looking at you Gyarados). Stone Edge offers additional coverage against particular foes such as Salamence and Zapdos, and Head Smash is really just overkill.
The last slot is up for grabs. Boiling Water provides Emboar with a solid way to deal with Rock- and Ground-types, potentially burning them. It also hits the likes of Heatran and Flygon attempting to switch in.
Speaking of Flygon, HP Ice is a viable option to hit the dragons. Ononokusu, Salamence, Garchomp, Sazandora; all of them will gladly switch into Wild Volt or Flare Blitz, and HP Ice can punish them immediately.
Nitro Charge is not the way to go, as Emboar's base 65 speed is pathetic even after a boost. Picking off an enemy with Nitro Charge is nice and all, but it is so weak that the opponent could easily just reserve that pokemon as death fodder. Blaziken, on the other hand, is actually threatening the switch-in with powerful attacks and will secure the speed boost regardless, which also frees up a moveslot.
Emboar@Choice Band
Brave; 252 HP / 252 Atk / 6 SpA
Wild Volt
Flare Blitz
Stone Edge
Boiling Water / HP Ice
The nature and EVs give Emboar as much bulk and physical attacking power as possible, while is important given his physical inclination. Flare Blitz is obvious STAB with high base power, while Wild Volt covers flying- and water-types in a single move (looking at you Gyarados). Stone Edge offers additional coverage against particular foes such as Salamence and Zapdos, and Head Smash is really just overkill.
The last slot is up for grabs. Boiling Water provides Emboar with a solid way to deal with Rock- and Ground-types, potentially burning them. It also hits the likes of Heatran and Flygon attempting to switch in.
Speaking of Flygon, HP Ice is a viable option to hit the dragons. Ononokusu, Salamence, Garchomp, Sazandora; all of them will gladly switch into Wild Volt or Flare Blitz, and HP Ice can punish them immediately.
Nitro Charge is not the way to go, as Emboar's base 65 speed is pathetic even after a boost. Picking off an enemy with Nitro Charge is nice and all, but it is so weak that the opponent could easily just reserve that pokemon as death fodder. Blaziken, on the other hand, is actually threatening the switch-in with powerful attacks and will secure the speed boost regardless, which also frees up a moveslot.
Why are we ignoring Fighting STAB? It's not like Fighting is a bad STAB, it's one of the best in the game.
It hits Rock types and other Fire types (Heatran especially).
Superpower or Hammer Arm clearly warrants a move slot.
EDIT: come someone edit the special attack already? Every other source lists it as 100, not 110. 110 would give it 538 BST, when the other two starters are 528 BST. 100 is the correct number.
It hits Rock types and other Fire types (Heatran especially).
Superpower or Hammer Arm clearly warrants a move slot.
EDIT: come someone edit the special attack already? Every other source lists it as 100, not 110. 110 would give it 538 BST, when the other two starters are 528 BST. 100 is the correct number.
Did anyone consider Nitro Charge Emboar? It could actually work really well similar to a charge beam set for pokemon that lack a spA boosting move. Nitro Charge has a higher base power and guarantees a speed boost though.
edit: read through and was ninja'd, but still it could be viable on any set.
edit: read through and was ninja'd, but still it could be viable on any set.
Recoil Emboar with shell bell.
I got that... but why? Shell Bell won't heal enough to negate most of the recoil, and you miss out on the power provided by say, a Choice item. And you miss out on the reliable healing of Leftovers, too.
Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong of course, but... it does seem like an odd choice to me.
Reckless apparently negates recoil damage now(according to a few people on IRC).
So Flare Blitz/Double-Edge/Wild Volt/Earthquake just got better under Trick Room.
So Flare Blitz/Double-Edge/Wild Volt/Earthquake just got better under Trick Room.
I had heard the opposite (that it did not remove the recoil).
Could you provide any evidence that it does (as that would make it incredably powerful, especially with the damage boost... And frankly I find it hard to believe)?
@Murkglow: I said taht I'm not sure about that. Hipmonlee knows more about it than I do, and so does toaster.
In-game with Hihidaruma's Flare Blitz, I still received recoil.
Hihidaruma doesn't get Reckless...
Sorry, I was thinking of Encourage.
Actually, from what I can tell he's the only Fire type that can learn ANY water move bar rain-dance and HP Water.
And it's awesome too, with Wild Bolt and Boiling Water hitting Flying, Ground, and Water for SE, which is everything that hits Emboar for SE.
I think something that's really interesting is the fact that he gets Yawn, which means he can put something to sleep and set up with Cheer Up/Nitro Charge/Bulk Up or just force a switch.
There's not really a reason to use Curse since you get bulk up. At least as far as I can see.
I'm a bit disappointed he doesn't get Focus Punch, 110 HP screams subpuncher, but I guess Flare Blitz would be absolutely moot, since it'd just kill him.
His movepool just kills me though, he's got some fantastic moves, I hope he's actually good. u__u
Also, I'm betting Reckless doesn't remove recoil, Head Smash, Flare Blitz, Wild Bolt and Take Down would just be fucking monstrous, with Flare Blitz having 360 BP after STAB and Head Smash having 300 BP.
Not to mention he can hit water types with a 180 BP Wild Bolt.
Edit: Wait scratch that, Serebii said the power was doubled but it's actually like 20% or something, so it's not nearly that bad.
Heat Stamp data
Using the following tentative information from the Research thread:
And since according to this, Heavy Bomber and Heat Stamp have the exact same effect, I've calculated the damage that Emboar can inflict to all the fully evolved Pokémon under normal conditions using Heat Stamp.
Bolded Pokémon are weak to Fire, italiced Pokémon are resistant to Fire, and underlined Pokémon may have Flash Fire; again all this under normal conditions. The fact that Emboar weights exactly 150 kg made the calculations a lot easier:
The next time that you have to choose between Heat Stamp and Flare Blitz (to say something), check here first what your main target weights, and then choose accordingly.
Using the following tentative information from the Research thread:
A) 120 base power, if target´s weight is lower or equal to 1/5 (20%) of user´s weight
B) 100 base power, if target´s weight is greater than 1/5 (20%) of user´s weight and lower or equal to 1/4 (25%) of user´s weight
C) 80 base power, if target´s weight is greater than 1/4 (25%) of user´s weight and lower or equal to 1/2 (50%) of user´s weight
D) 60 base power, if target´s weight is greater than 1/3 (33.3%) of user´s weight and lower or equal to 1/2 of user´s weight (50%)
E) 40 base power, if target´s weight is greater than 1/2 (50%) of user´s weight
B) 100 base power, if target´s weight is greater than 1/5 (20%) of user´s weight and lower or equal to 1/4 (25%) of user´s weight
C) 80 base power, if target´s weight is greater than 1/4 (25%) of user´s weight and lower or equal to 1/2 (50%) of user´s weight
D) 60 base power, if target´s weight is greater than 1/3 (33.3%) of user´s weight and lower or equal to 1/2 of user´s weight (50%)
E) 40 base power, if target´s weight is greater than 1/2 (50%) of user´s weight
And since according to this, Heavy Bomber and Heat Stamp have the exact same effect, I've calculated the damage that Emboar can inflict to all the fully evolved Pokémon under normal conditions using Heat Stamp.
Bolded Pokémon are weak to Fire, italiced Pokémon are resistant to Fire, and underlined Pokémon may have Flash Fire; again all this under normal conditions. The fact that Emboar weights exactly 150 kg made the calculations a lot easier:
Rotom, Uxie, Mesprit, Azelf, Castform, Chimecho, Jirachi, Shedinja, Manaphy, Chatot, Land Shaymin, Jumpluff, Phione, Masquerain, Qwilfish, Pachirisu, Ditto, Victini, Mew, Plusle, Minun, Mismagius, Unown, Celebi, Corsola, Emonga, Sky Shaymin, Male Combee, Bellossom, Wormadam, Meloetta, Erufuun, Chilachiino, Sunflora, Luvdisc, Cherrim, Weezing, Morobareru, Kokoromori, Sableye, Maggyo, Mawile, Wigglytuff, Ninjask, Venomoth, Banette, Shinpora, Dunsparce, Denchura, Roserade, Farfetch'd, Drifblim, Victreebel, Delibird, Doredia, Volbeat, Illumise, Basurao, Raticate, Vileplume, Swellow, Ninetales, Rankurusu, Ambipom, Shuckle, Hahakomori, Altaria, Kecleon, Lanturn, Gorebyss, Mothim, Relicanth, Whiscash, Lumineon, Swanna, Jolteon, Staraptor, Flareon, Agirudaa, Kricketune, Leafeon, Glaceon, Espeon, Froslass, Umbreon, Miruhoggu, Huntail, Carnivine, Honchkrow, Pelipper, Marakacchi, Baokkii, Beautifly, Azumarill, Wobbuffet, Octillery, Vaporeon, Kenhorou, Beedrill, Hiyakkii, Sandslash, Parasect, Gastrodon, Raichu, Muk, Zuruzuking.
Yanakkii, Tabunne, Medicham, Bibarel, Mamanbou, Dustox, Butterfree, Aakeosu, Persian, Primeape, Furret, Linoone, Delcatty, Crawdaunt, Dugtrio, Shubarugo, Aianto, Lopunny, Ariados, Floatzel, Politoed, Weavile, Porygon-Z, Shandera, Oobemu, Omastar, Houndoom, Kojondo, Ledian, Mightyena, Leparudasu.
Fearow, Sudowoodo, Skuntank, Togekiss, Vespiquen, Seaking, Breloom, Pidgeot, Clefable, Barujiina, Latias, Manectric, Zangoose, Gengar, Doryuuzu, Kabutops, Jynx, Noctowl, Wargle, Girafarig, Luxray, Gliscor, Purugly, Gochiruzeru, Toxicroak, Marowak, Urgamoth, Blissey, Absol, Alakazam, Hitmontop, Gardevoir, Kerudio, Granbull, Hitmonlee.
Hitmonchan, Skarmory, Darkrai, Dageki, Yanmega, Blaziken, Gallade, Sceptile, Seviper, Zapdos, Poliwrath, Heracross, Lucario, Mr. Mime, Tentacruel, Pinsir, Magcargo, Ludicolo, Infernape, Articuno, Nageki, Baibanira, Smeargle, Kuitaran, Aerodactyl, Shiftry, Nidoqueen, Kingler, Moltres, Latios, Cradily, Musharna, Deoxys, Ampharos, Muurando, Borutorosu, Drapion, Nidoking, Gamageroge, Torunerosu, Jarooda, Arbok, Electrode, Landorosu, Magmortar, Armaldo, Kirikizan, Stantler, Grumpig, Crobat, Quagsire.
Miltank, Hypno, Desukaan, Golduck, Cacturne, Slowbro, Zeburaika, Typhlosion, Slowking, Kangaskhan, Starmie, Swalot, Torkoal, Shibirudon, Gigigear, Abagoora, Zoroark, Swampert, Flygon, Genosekuto, Exploud, Empoleon, Dodrio, Blastoise, Cresselia, Roopushin, Tauros, Feraligatr, Sharpedo, Charizard, Mebukijika, Hihidaruma, Daikenki, Baffuron, Rapidash, Garchomp, Warubiaru, Venusaur, Tropius, Meganium, Rampardos, Salamence, Ononokusu, Dusknoir, Claydol, Dasutodasu, Spiritomb, Nattorei, Scizor, Dewgong, Exeggutor, Donphan, Mewtwo, Forretress, Ursaring, Tangrowth, Machamp, Slaking, Cloyster, Burungeru, Abomasnow, Electivire, Kurimugan, Lickilicky, Furijio, Bastiodon, Emboar, Walrein, Kingdra, Solrock, Arcanine, Sazandora, Milotic, Lunatone, Regice, Raikou, Magnezone, Suicune, Bronzong, Entei, Ho-Oh, Iwaparesu, Birijion, Pendoraa, Tyranitar, Registeel, Rayquaza, Dragonite, Lugia, Lapras, Mantine, Camerupt, Regirock, Gyarados, Kobaruon, Hariyama, Glalie, Tsunbear, Terakion, Gigaiasu, Rhyperior, Mamoswine, Golem, Hippowdon, Torterra, Arceus, Kyuremu, Reshiram, Goruugu, Palkia, Probopass, Zekrom, Kyogre, Aggron, Wailord, Steelix, Regigigas, Heatran, Snorlax, Metagross, Origin Giratina, Dialga, Altered Giratina, Groudon.
The next time that you have to choose between Heat Stamp and Flare Blitz (to say something), check here first what your main target weights, and then choose accordingly.
I can see it working well as an Anti-weather pokemon. It walls Ninetails, outspeeds Tyranitar (4x weak to STAB) and Politoed, and hits SE on Abomasnow with both STABs.