Doubles Suspect Stage 1 - Metagame Discussion

[Pocket]

Does anyone have replays of this seemingly legit mono-fire team???

I am surprised by all the rain love in this thread. Props to finally for proving that the Politoed can still croak its song :0 Is Kingdra the Rain abuser of choice? Ludicolo's Grass STAB and immunity to Rage Powder can come in handy, I would think, especially with Energy Ball receiving a major buff this gen. Ludicolo certainly doesn't get shit on by Azumarill like Kingdra does. The lack of Muddy Water kinda blows for Ludicolo, though, and a STAB Draco Meteor is still effective as ever in eliminating opposing Dragon-types. I guess one can easily pair Kingdra with Shaymin-S for pesky Water-, and Grass-types.

Has anyone tried other Rain abusers outside of the aforementioned Swift Swimmers? I can see Water Spout Mega Blastoise with speed control or Belly Drum Azumarill wrecking major havoc in the rain. Even a commonplace mon like Rotom-W would transform into a freaken nuke in the Rain.

Also what is the most efficient set for Politoed? It does have some nifty support moves in Icy Wind, Helping Hand, Encore, and Perish Song (I guess Haze and Hypnosis count, too). Rain Dance is always worth the moveslot for more flexible way to renew Rain without the need to switch out. Specs Politoed does not seem like a bad idea, either, especially with the backing of Trick Room. This way Politoed can make use of its rain, and actually pose an offensive threat.

I'd be interested in what others have experimented with rain ;d

 

[Laga]

For a Politoed set, I like using Hydro Pump / Encore / Protect or Icy Wind / Helping Hand with some sort of EV spread modified to OHKO something important with Pump.

Encore is super cool vs stuff like Heatran or Fake Out users. Helping Hand is good as ever especially alongside Kingdra, since it has that delicious spread move. Icy Wind might be a bit redundant if your main "sweeper" is Kingdra, but it helps very much if the rest of your team is a bit slower. Hydro Pump is basically because Scald is for weaklings >:] I haven't tried Specs Politoed in this meta yet, so I guess I should get around to testing that thing sometime soon.

On the topic of great mons on Rain teams, I have found that possibly the most effective offensive partner for Rain sweepers is Mega Gengar. It can both trap and kill Azumarill, as well as shut down Trick Room – a huge problem for offensive Rain teams – with the appropriate moveset (I like using Taunt / S-Ball / S-Bomb / Protect when using in on a Rain team). It is also generally great against bulky Psychic types – for example it can do massive damage to Latias, which is a large problem for Ludicolo and to an extent also Kingdra (D-Meteor causes that SpA drop, and doesn't OHKO w/o Life Orb irrc).

Another great partner is Scrafty – again, it takes out them bulky Psychic-types and Ghost-types that set TR / wall rain sweepers. It also takes care of the rare Ferrothorn / Empoleon, and provides the general awesome support in Intimidate + Fake Out.

 

[Ultimathunder]

Rain isn't dead, despite what some people are saying. Though it got heavily nerfed, and faces heavy competiton from other weathers, rain still has a Number of things going for it. I'm fact , rain gives the most boats of any weather.

• Activates swift swim
• Powers up water type moves
• Weakens fire type moves
• Thunder becomes fully accurate
• Hurricane becomes fully accurate

The main problem with rain is the setter, politoed.
Though it is a decent Mon, it is in heavy competition from other other more powerful, bulky, or faster weather setters such as tyranitar, charizard, and abomasnow, all of which are superior pokemon if weather was taken out of the picture. It is still useable though. One of the sets I like to use with politoed is hydro pump, ice beam, encore or perish song, and protect with sitrus berry. it hits very hard with hydro pump, has coverage for grass types and flying types, encore status moves such as trick room, and
protect for general utility. I have seen and used some of the sets mentioned above, such as water spout mega blastoise and mega gengar. One pokemon I really enjoy using on rain teams is aegislash. The rain alleviates ita fire weakness, and water type partmers easily remove most ground types. It is useful for simular reasons as mega gengar- it can check trick room in its own way by being so slow, and smack by bulky pokemon such as cresselia and latias really hard with its stab ghost type moves.

I want to know what people have experienced while using hail. Abomasnow has gotten much better, due to ita mega. What pokemon do people like to run alongside abomasnow? Some things I can thunk of would be rotom-w and hitmontop, the former for wide guard and the latter for useful resistances.

 

[WinterWave]

Laga 156 special attack EVs on politoed ohko heatran(same EVs from your analysis)

calc

156 SpA Politoed Hydro Pump vs. 180 HP / 0 SpD Heatran in Rain: 368-434 (100 - 117.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Anyway, ultimathunder brought up a good point in the fact that hail got buffed with abomasnow's mega. I think it was Nollan who posted a pretty solid HailRoom team in the sample teams thread. It showcased how awesome mega abomasnow is under trick room as well as showing some underrated threats like marowak. Anyway, hail can be pretty strong in this metagame.

 

[finally]

On the topic of rain
It just eats sun up for breakfast :], especially Not Kuradal's mono-fire team
No muddy water really does suck for ludicolo. It forces two different situations: 1)you run single targeting water moves, or 2) you have to hit your teammate. The former dosen't allow one you to abuse rain to the its greatest extent with all the fire mons running around. The latter forces strict teambuilding which enemy scizors eats up (packing water resists = you run grass pokemon = bug bite :]). Grass stab though and the ability to ignore amoonguss is really nice.
Overall I think kingdra > ludicolo because of stats, primarily speed. You have to invest a lot of speed in ludicolo to guarantee it to outspeed things in and out of rain, while kingdra requires less. Also, I'm pretty sure kingdra is bulkier, but I could be wrong.
Toed has a mixed bag movepool-wise. I've found encore to be meh as doing damage is more useful usually. Helping Hand is weird and situational as politoed does more damage by himself + teammate hitting rather than teammate with helping hand. It's useful when you need things like swift swimmers to just kill everything on the field before they can hit toed tho. For a time I actually tried dual-ice on politoed- ice beam and icy wind. It was cool, but I think overall you should pick one (that one being ice beam for solid damage). Although not mentioned, hp grass on politoed does pitiful damage. Don't use it to hit gastrodons on the switch. Just switch into your own grass pokemon. The hard thing to do with rain dance politoed is the turn order in which politoed goes.

Hide

Turn 1 poli and char get sent out
char mega-evolves into char-y
drought
swift swimmer attacks first, but dosen't get to abuse *1.5 rain boost and instead gets a nice *1.5 decrease
char-y used solar beam
poli can survive the solar beam, but it hurts
poli gets the rain up

Mid-game rain set up though is interesting. I suppose it would be played like sunny day ninetales is in singles. As the opposing weather switches in, you reverse the weather with rain dance. I've tried it with mediocre success, but perhaps others have perfected it. (I actually think manual weather like that works really well with things like cress and latias, but they do better in the sun instead of the rain :[).
Another really interesting thing people have thought of is manual prankster rain with tornadus or something. Char-y megas, drought, prankster rain dance. I'd be interested to see if anyone has gotten far with that. I suppose the downside of that is no automatic swift swim (b/c you have to set up the rain, and speed is calculated at the beginning of the turn).
Although I've not seen any, I'd really be interested to see how rainroom has fared with the introduction of gen 6. I think most people shy away with it because of the difficulty getting up trick room with bombs like char-y flying around. Also, prime candidates for rainroom (those who gain from the fire resist in rain-ferrothorn, escavalier, scizor) are nerfed because of the sheer amount of fire running around. :]

 

[Lasagne]

I've been experimenting with an offensive core of Trick Room Chandelure + Eruption Heatran. It's been really great, as you can just spam Heat Wave and Eruption, and pretty much everything dies. For the Fire resists, you can use Shadow Ball and Earth Power, which covers pretty much every relevant Fire resist. These 2 mons alone often break down entire teams on their own, and when they dont, I can bring out my MegaKhan or Conkeldurr to finish the job. This just reinforces the fact that has been stated many times in this thread already: Fire-types destroy in this meta. I'm even considering adding Char-Y just for the sun so I can destroy even more, though obviously Char-Y doesn't like Trick Room very much, so I'm not sure how it would work out. Might just make the team semi-TR idk.

One of the best answers to all the Fire spam going around is definitely Gyarados, especially the bulky variant. It has great special bulk, and an awesome type for dealing with the common Fire-types. Water/Flying makes it resist all the Fire moves, immune to Heatran's Earth Power, neutral to ZardY's Solar Beam and it's not weak to any of Chandelure's moves either. Also a great counter to Blaziken that don't run Stone Edge or ThunderPunch thanks to resistances to both STABs and Intimidate, but that's not such a threat. It also resists both of Volcarona's STABs, is neutral to Giga Drain, and immune/resistant to common Hidden Powers (if it chooses to run hidden power which it usually doesnt). Banded Talonflame can be a problem, as Brave Bird does a lot of damage (can't calc right now to see if it kills), but Intimidate can usually neuter it enough so that Gyarados can deal with that too. I think Gyarados is just amazing for dealing with Fire-types, and definitely worth considering for a spot on a team. Also it's actually really strong so it can kill all the Fire-types it's walling too

 

[BlankZero]

Kabutops could ruin CharY hardcore under rain... STAB Rock Slide with that huge base attack...

 

[nyttyn]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogondoubles-75599783 i think this is the mono fire team in question

 

[Darkmalice]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogondoubles-75599783 i think this is the mono fire team in question

That's not the team, or at least not the one I faced. The one I faced did not have Arcanine, Houndoom, and Typhlosion. It had Chandelure, Volcarona, and Heatran instead.

 

[nyttyn]

After having used and fought Mega-Charizard Y, I have to say, to address the cires of OP: It's not that the mon itself is impossible to handle. Charizard Y Is very possible to handle with ample team building. It just puts a enormous amount of strain on team building, to the point where I'm pretty sure it's toxic for the meta, irregardless of how balanced it is. Likewise, Mega Kangaskhan puts pressure on team building, but in a different way - it's just so obscenely good, unless you're already using a Mega pokemon, there is literally no reason not to use it. I'm really starting to feel the pressure upper on the ladder, as well - almost every single team over 1800 has a dedicated Zard-Y murderer and a dedicated mega Kang murderer.

As for my thoughts on Rain - it is definitely still effective. There's a lot more counter play now, yes, but the primary reasons why it's such a huge threat haven't really changed. However, sets like SubDra aren't really an option any more in my opinion, because you really need to abuse every single turn you have firing off as many enormous salvos of power as you can. Honestly, I'd compare it to Trick Room insofar as set up goes. It probably would benefit any potential Rain users to study how Trick Room setup operates, and seek to emulate that, with the added benefit of Politoed being able to be set out to auto-proc weather - and with the added disadvantage of, at times, having to fight the Weather War. Something many people overlook though is that random Sunny Day isn't nearly as common with the popularity of Sun and nerf of Rain, which is actually a blessing for Rain teams, as they no longer have to be terribly worried that Cressila will randomly fire out a Sunny Day and wreck their cornflakes.

also anyone who's advocating for sleep clause has no idea about the nightmare that is three-turn sleep smh.

 

[phantom]

I feel like the one thing that holds Mega Kangaskhan back is the fact that it's a physical attacker - meaning Intimidate users give it a run for its money. The thing I've observed the most about Doubles is that special attackers are able to smash through teams a lot easier in contrast to their physical counter parts, and it's exactly for that reason. Furthermore, I feel like a lot of other physical attackers like Mega Mawile are also kept in check by such means. Maybe it's just me, but from all the laddering I've done and from what I've seen from tournament / mini tour matches, is that the overall dynamic of Doubles makes it possible to check damn near everything without really restraining your team building to a heavy degree. Simply put, it's really difficulty for any one Pokemon to overwhelm both of its opponents at the same time.

Shifting gears, the one thing that needs to be looked into more is what exactly makes something overbearing in Doubles? I'm seeing quite a few people (not calling anyone out in this thread) applying a singles definition of broken to Doubles, and it just doesn't work that way. Trappers are probably the best example of why this sort of logic can't really crossover. Moreover, Pokemon such as Deoxys-A, which was considered far too powerful to be even tested this gen, is actually a "meh" threat in Doubles.

This is all purely anecdotal, but if you're going to call something "unhealthy" or anything of that sort, you need to take the time to find a solid definition of what that is. This is completely different playing field here and as such, it's vital to get a good grip on all these differing aspects before making any sort of judgement call.

 

[BlankZero]

I feel like the one thing that holds Mega Kangaskhan back is the fact that it's a physical attacker - meaning Intimidate users give it a run for its money. The thing I've observed the most about Doubles is that special attackers are able to smash through teams a lot easier in contrast to their physical counter parts, and it's exactly for that reason. Furthermore, I feel like a lot of other physical attackers like Mega Mawile are also kept in check by such means. Maybe it's just me, but from all the laddering I've done and from what I've seen from tournament / mini tour matches, is that the overall dynamic of Doubles makes it possible to check damn near everything without really restraining your team building to a heavy degree. Simply put, it's really difficulty for any one Pokemon to overwhelm both of its opponents at the same time.

Shifting gears, the one thing that needs to be looked into more is what exactly makes something overbearing in Doubles? I'm seeing quite a few people (not calling anyone out in this thread) applying a singles definition of broken to Doubles, and it just doesn't work that way. Trappers are probably the best example of why this sort of logic can't really crossover. Moreover, Pokemon such as Deoxys-A, which was considered far too powerful to be even tested this gen, is actually a "meh" threat in Doubles.

This is all purely anecdotal, but if you're going to call something "unhealthy" or anything of that sort, you need to take the time to find a solid definition of what that is. This is completely different playing field here and as such, it's vital to get a good grip on all these differing aspects before making any sort of judgement call.

I feel that the main crossover of Singles/Doubles as far as what constitutes "broken" or not would be the term "Overcentralization". We saw this in the Genesect suspect (every team could just throw it on and you were stupid not to use it) and, at least for me, it changed how I saw the term "broken" in Pokemon. Genesect was powerful, but not ridiculously overbearing by itself. I feel Heatran and CharY fit this description heavily, moreso CharY, as Tran was always good, but skyrocketed in popularity with the introduction of Charizard Y, both as a check, and as a partner. It puts a ton of stress on Team Building, as you have to either have Heatran now, or some other check to CharY. It's like building to check Cress, except CharY can actually hurt you if you don't consider it. To me, we should look into suspecting anything that becomes such a centralizing force in Doubles that you MUST account for in every team. I'll stop here since we don't really need to be discussing what is broken or not yet, but I figured I'd give my thoughts on what seems like a good definition of broken or suspect in Doubles.

 

[Nollan]

I feel that the main crossover of Singles/Doubles as far as what constitutes "broken" or not would be the term "Overcentralization". We saw this in the Genesect suspect (every team could just throw it on and you were stupid not to use it) and, at least for me, it changed how I saw the term "broken" in Pokemon. Genesect was powerful, but not ridiculously overbearing by itself. I feel Heatran and CharY fit this description heavily, moreso CharY, as Tran was always good, but skyrocketed in popularity with the introduction of Charizard Y, both as a check, and as a partner. It puts a ton of stress on Team Building, as you have to either have Heatran now, or some other check to CharY. It's like building to check Cress, except CharY can actually hurt you if you don't consider it. To me, we should look into suspecting anything that becomes such a centralizing force in Doubles that you MUST account for in every team. I'll stop here since we don't really need to be discussing what is broken or not yet, but I figured I'd give my thoughts on what seems like a good definition of broken or suspect in Doubles.

I'm definitely starting to see Charizard-Y as an over centralized threat in the metagame. Kangashkan is not quite there imo, as while it fits great on teams and you need a check to handle it, it can still be hindered to an extent by Intimidate and Will-O-Wisp (as mentioned by Icecream), and common Ghost- (assuming it has mega-evolved) and Fighting-types can usually do a lot of work against it with proper play.

I think the biggest problem with Charizard-Y is that it not only supports its team with weather, but can hit ridiculously hard as a threat alone. The ability to support its team with 5 turn sun and completely obliterate things by making use of power offensive options such as Overheat, Heat Wave, Solarbeam, Air Slash, and so on makes Charizard-Y the closest thing to "broken" I can really think of atm.

Looking at things from the big picture if we were to ban Charizardnite Y, rain would probably become a more effective weather (it already is, but this would be to the extent where it would actually be common rather than seen on occasion) again, and this would in turn bring down Heatran and it wouldn't be as common with Sun (or at least a large extent of its viability) gone.

Still, I am reluctant to push for a suspect test on anything, the metagame is overall pretty healthy and diverse (Sun, Goodstuff, Trick Room, Sand, Rain, and even Hail are all seeing some use).

 

[BlankZero]

I'm definitely starting to see Charizard-Y as an over centralized threat in the metagame. Kangashkan is not quite there imo, as while it fits great on teams and you need a check to handle it, it can still be hindered to an extent by Intimidate and Will-O-Wisp (as mentioned by Icecream), and common Ghost- (assuming it has mega-evolved) and Fighting-types can usually do a lot of work against it with proper play.

I think the biggest problem with Charizard-Y is that it not only supports its team with weather, but can hit ridiculously hard as a threat alone. The ability to support its team with 5 turn sun and completely obliterate things by making use of power offensive options such as Overheat, Heat Wave, Solarbeam, Air Slash, and so on makes Charizard-Y the closest thing to "broken" I can really think of atm.

Looking at things from the big picture if we were to ban Charizardnite Y, rain would probably become a more effective weather (it already is, but this would be to the extent where it would actually be common rather than seen on occasion) again, and this would in turn bring down Heatran and it wouldn't be as common with Sun (or at least a large extent of its viability) gone.

Still, I am reluctant to push for a suspect test on anything, the metagame is overall pretty healthy and diverse (Sun, Goodstuff, Trick Room, Sand, Rain, and even Hail are all seeing some use).

I agree we are at a pretty healthy point already, but CharY is probably as close to a suspect as we are going to get atm. I'll be willing to discuss this more in VM/PM, but I'll save the rest of my comments on Suspects for the actual suspect vote/thread

 

[Lasagne]

there's been a lot of hype around assault vest scrafty lately, and while I haven't actually tried that out yet (no point teambuilding cos PS won't load so can't actually use the teams much), I have tried another assault vest fighting type. To be precise, conkeldurr. This thing was massive for trick room teams last gen, and I don't see why its not getting its way onto as many tr teams this gen. Its as good as, if not better than, ever and assault vest just boosts its viability even further. Not being able to use status moves really doesn't matter at all for conk, as the only one it might want to use anyway is bulk up (and protect ofc). I run the standard 3 moves of drain punch, mach punch and ice punch, along with iron fist for a really hard hitting tank. My last move, however, is one I haven't seen many people running - knock off. As we all know, knock off got a massive buff this gen, so conkeldurr doesn't have to use payback for coverage against ghost types. With 97 power when the opponent has an item, knock off decimates a ton of threats, including aegislash and chandelure, which both take your other attacks with ease. With assault vest you can take on these two in particular much more effectively, as conk can easily take hits from them and hit back with its powerful as shit knock off. Drain punch does loads of damage to neutral targets, giving a 2hko the majority of the time. Mach punch can finish opponents off with ease if trick room isn't up or your opponents Pokemon outslows you (or has priority of their own you want to outdo). Ice punch provides good coverage against bulky Pokemon like zygarde and other bulky grounds. Most grass types (do those even exist lol) and dragons aren't particularly bulky, so drain punch can often do enough to them. Conkeldurr often stays alive to do a lot if damage to the opposing team, thanks to the combination of great physical bulk and the special bulk provided by assault vest. Assault vest conkeldurr is just one of my favourite Pokemon in doubles right now, and one that I think more people should try out.

 

[finally]

there's been a lot of hype around assault vest scrafty lately, and while I haven't actually tried that out yet (no point teambuilding cos PS won't load so can't actually use the teams much), I have tried another assault vest fighting type. To be precise, conkeldurr. This thing was massive for trick room teams last gen, and I don't see why its not getting its way onto as many tr teams this gen. Its as good as, if not better than, ever and assault vest just boosts its viability even further. Not being able to use status moves really doesn't matter at all for conk, as the only one it might want to use anyway is bulk up (and protect ofc). I run the standard 3 moves of drain punch, mach punch and ice punch, along with iron fist for a really hard hitting tank. My last move, however, is one I haven't seen many people running - knock off. As we all know, knock off got a massive buff this gen, so conkeldurr doesn't have to use payback for coverage against ghost types. With 97 power when the opponent has an item, knock off decimates a ton of threats, including aegislash and chandelure, which both take your other attacks with ease. With assault vest you can take on these two in particular much more effectively, as conk can easily take hits from them and hit back with its powerful as shit knock off. Drain punch does loads of damage to neutral targets, giving a 2hko the majority of the time. Mach punch can finish opponents off with ease if trick room isn't up or your opponents Pokemon outslows you (or has priority of their own you want to outdo). Ice punch provides good coverage against bulky Pokemon like zygarde and other bulky grounds. Most grass types (do those even exist lol) and dragons aren't particularly bulky, so drain punch can often do enough to them. Conkeldurr often stays alive to do a lot if damage to the opposing team, thanks to the combination of great physical bulk and the special bulk provided by assault vest. Assault vest conkeldurr is just one of my favourite Pokemon in doubles right now, and one that I think more people should try out.

What do you run ev-wise? Singles people run specially defensive (252atk/252spdef) if assault vest, but I've found more 252 hp/252 Atk in doubles to be more effective. I also use knock off as it really helps with cress. Assault vest scrafty is also chill (252 hp/252atk is not 2hkoed by char-y). I like to run fake out, drain punch, crunch, rock slide. One thing about scrafty though is, kanga does offer competition As a fake outer for faster teams. I think kanga is superior in most cases as a fake outer (except trick room) because of the offensive pressure it adds. Lum scrafty is also a ladder monster.

 

[youngjake93]

On the topic of sleep clause: I have put 3 things to sleep at one time with effect spore amoonguss. Having many things sleeping is stupidly good. Even having one thing asleep is sometimes worse than a free KO bc it gives you free turns to do whatever you want while dealing with only half the offensive pressure.

On the topic of Charizard: I personally don't think the teambuilding "restrictions" it causes to be unhealthy. There are loads of things that check it that are very good in their own right. You aren't limited to having to pick the same Pokemon everytime or go out of your way to carry subpar options to deal with it.

On the topic of Kangaskhan: This might become the new Charizard if CharY leaves the tier. I don't think it is overbearing at all, but it is one of the top dogs.

On the topic of "nothing is that OP, we have nothing better to suspect": Yea, join me in contemplating Giratina-O then. I've battled against it and it isn't very powerful plus its bulk is really undermined in doubles. It's biggest draw is its really sexy typing, but it is much more than manageable with good team building. 120/120/90 attacking stats are not scary at all and 150/100/100 defensive stats are great, but not overbearing imo. It has MUCH less offensive presence than Kyurem-B or Aegislash while being only about 15% bulkier than either iirc. So yea, it's all about that typing and movepool, which you can handle in the teambuilding phase. I think it would be cool to at least try to see how it would impact the meta especially in the case of "we have nothing else better to do." Note: this idea does not include 150/120/120 Giratina with Telepathy in any way, nor do any other ubers seem worthy of a drop-down at all.

 

[Lasagne]

What do you run ev-wise? Singles people run specially defensive (252atk/252spdef) if assault vest, but I've found more 252 hp/252 Atk in doubles to be more effective. I also use knock off as it really helps with cress. Assault vest scrafty is also chill (252 hp/252atk is not 2hkoed by char-y). I like to run fake out, drain punch, crunch, rock slide. One thing about scrafty though is, kanga does offer competition As a fake outer for faster teams. I think kanga is superior in most cases as a fake outer (except trick room) because of the offensive pressure it adds. Lum scrafty is also a ladder monster.

I'm on phone so I can't actually check right now, but I believe I run max hp and enough special defense to live 2 zardy heat waves in sun, with the rest thrown into attack. I can't remember the exact amount though, I think its something like 72 or 76?

 

[Ash Borer]

The general tone of this thread seems to be that little in the way of suspet nominations are going to exist. I tend to agree, of all the pokemon, moves, and tactics nothing really sticks out like a sore thumb to me. Kanga is insanely strong, but intimidate and will-o-wisp keep it in pretty decent check. Zard-Y is right up there considering its ability to support the team, but verry common pokemon such as tyranitar, and Heatran can really put the squeeze on it, as well as its other flaws such as a glaring 4x rock slide weak, middling speed, and plain bad physical bulk make it something that can be handled. Heatran is another case, to be honest, it really, really shapes the meta, but it defies the defintion of broken. If you dont carry strong water, ground, and fighting you can NOT slam it, many games have been lost by these moves being picked off and Heatran just dominating teams. But, carrying many of these moves is not beyond the meta to cope with. These moves are fantastic for coverage to nearly any pokemon, and regardless of heatran your teams should always have at least 3 pokemon that carry these moves you will always have a way of brnging heatran down to its knees. As well wide guard, politoed, and a myriad of other pokemon and tactics can shut down a lot of heatran's dominant prescence. Heatran is a monster, and it will remain right at the top of the usage stats but it's very good for the metagame.

What I would like to discuss is that has the prospect of suspect testing currently banned pokemon, such as Groudon, Giratina, or Palkia to be unbanned ever possible? I have no experience with uber doubles, not many people do. Are these pokemon just a matter of "they're so obviously broken we dont have ot think about it" or is it worth considering? Sure, in Singles these pokemon have absolutely no place in the OU meta, but damn, lots of broken shit in singles works in doubles, like Deo for example.

 

[hyperbeem]

Actually I completely agree with the above poster. Nothing really seems to be broken at the moment, and I think it would be really cool if we started testing some Ubers Pokemon. If possible, can we nominate currently Ubers Pokemon for testing individually?

 

[tofucocoa]

To be fair, Greninja is actually a good Pokemon - definitely not top 3% ranking. It can screw over a lot of Pokemon depending on its moveset.

252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hidden Power Rock vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y: 390-458 (130.8 - 153.6%)

i don't think greninja is all that great, but if i had to describe it, the word i would use is 'slippery'. although its kinda frail, it's hard to nail it with a neutral or SE attack at times because of protean, and can, as you said, screw over common pokemon easily if given the right move. also, smack down>HP rock since you can EQ rotoms on following turns ;))

i wish i could give more insight, but i'm on a little doubles hiatus atm until VGC winter regionals are done with for a few months (and then i plan on taking a break from dubz a few weeks before the next set of regs). i will however comment on this:

Thoughts from the ladder:

Sun is quite good and used a lot. Fire types in general are quite good since Charizard Y is a bit of a pain to take out if you don't have something like CB Talonflame or Scarf Rock Slide (and even those could be wide guarded or quick guarded). Though I think getting rid of Sleep Clause wouldn't break doubles, I think it potentially could in the case of Venusaur on Sun. Amoonguss et al aren't threats when it comes to no Sleep Clause. It's just Venusaur I would be worried about, but I think even that might merit unbanning.

i think you're overestimating sleep here, at least in the context of powders. now that you can simply block powders with saftey goggles, grass types, overcoat and not to mention the pre-existing lum and chesto berries, the new priority safeguard/taunt, etc. i think spore and such like pitfalls that punish bad team composition, i.e. teams without good support mons or TR teams screwed over by amoonguss. in venusaur's case, i can sorta see why you'd be concerned, but we have stuff like jirachi that doesn't care about venu, especially when it's holding lum (like most good FM users should be) as well as FM in general. then again, i'm not super well-versed in dubz right now, but in the context of VGC14 and previous metas, i've never had much trouble with sleep unless i'm running a terrible team or my opponent catches me in a bad spot and in both scenarios i think my losses were justified. it's just another little thing to prepare for (and usually you end up being pretty swagger-proof as well, so there's a plus)

 

[BlankZero]

I honestly see CharY and Heatran being the closest thing we have to Suspects currently, with CharY's usage giving everyone and their mom a reason to use Tran. I hate to reuse the example of Genesect, but CharY really feels like that to me. Not quite broken all by itself, but it forces you to include a check in your team to it, which most people opt for Heatran. The only thing I see different between the two here is that, while Gene had basically no counters to its Scarf set due to UTurn, and Rock Polish made it an unstoppable monster, CharY's counters are actually already in high usage (TTar, Tran, Garchomp, Terrakion) so no one really notices they bring them in. It does restrict you when you try to bring in something weird like Bronzong for TR setting, and Metagross has pretty much disappeared from usage from what I've noticed. I think CharY deserves a testing, just because it's so good, if you don't use it, you're forced to run Heatran or something. If you do use it, Heatran is too good to pass up. I just feel it's overcentralizing the metagame in an unhealthy way.

 

[Haruno]

The problem I have with testing zard Y is in the event of a suspect/ban, with zard Y dropping although this might be a steep slope argument I feel that with a zard ban then other strategies like tytar/rain/hail will take off since zard Y is one of the main things holding back those strategies and with its removal then those strategies suddenly overcentralizr the meta. Arguably it'll be better if more strategies become more used with the loss of zard Y but then again those strategies will eventually overcentralize the meta, think sand/celebi usage post genesect ban in BW2 Ou, it went from obscure and niche strategies to the driving forces of the metagame. I feel the removal of zard Y will cause something similar.

 

[BlankZero]

The problem I have with testing zard Y is in the event of a suspect/ban, with zard Y dropping although this might be a steep slope argument I feel that with a zard ban then other strategies like tytar/rain/hail will take off since zard Y is one of the main things holding back those strategies and with its removal then those strategies suddenly overcentralizr the meta. Arguably it'll be better if more strategies become more used with the loss of zard Y but then again those strategies will eventually overcentralize the meta, think sand/celebi usage post genesect ban in BW2 Ou, it went from obscure and niche strategies to the driving forces of the metagame. I feel the removal of zard Y will cause something similar.

Weather last Gen was centralized as fuck and we had no issues with it. Char's main thing is that it is a Sun setter AND an Abuser in the same slot. That's like if Volcarona got Drought or Excadrill have Sand Stream AND Sand Rush together. It's got that massive Special stat, plus 50% increase from Sun it sets up all by itself, and supports a ton of mons all in one slot. It has single handedly boosted ScarfTar usage just by existing, and makes almost every other Mega unviable (why use anything else unless you're TR?)

I think the weather nerf was enough to drop Politoed to A/B rank when it was S last Gen, and the only way TTar stayed S was its massive Movepool and set options. I don't think it's broken overall but it's too Overcentralizing for a healthy meta and we should at least test it.

 

[Pocket]

Guys move all suspect discussions to the Suspect Nomination & Discussion Thread. Do note that only the nominated suspects are actually considered for voting, but I am certain that any one of these mons would be nominated sooner or later.

As for actual metagame discussion, Talonflame is still spanking butts just the same as its Pre-Bank days. Despite its lousy 81 base Attack, a priority STAB 120 bp move is super good. Its ability to move fast and hard against other non-priority users regardless of Tailwind, Icy Wind speed drop, or Trick Room give this mon amazing offensive presence. It actually has some nifty resistances and EQ immunity to switch into the field without too much hassle (much unlike Deoxys-A). Sharing the same typing as the incredibly potent Charizard Y puts the bird in a rather awkward position, admittedly.

So I was thinking what pairs well with Talonflame, and I narrowed it down to Mold Breaker Excadrill! Think about it, Excadrill takes out Rotom-W, Heatran, and Tyranitar with Mold Breaker Earthquake, three of Talonflame's top counters. Most Electric-types like Thundurus lack a reliable way of disposing Excadrill; I guess one can consider Occa Berry on Excadrill to tank Overheat from Manectric. Talonflame on the other hand destroys Fighting- and Grass-types that harass Excadrill. Most Intimidate users that will try to nerf Excadrill's Earthquake loathe to switch into Talonflame's Brave Bird. Hell even some Landorus-T and Gyarados are threatened to be 2HKOed by CB Brave Bird even after an Intimidate! Thanks to Talonflame's Flying typing, Excadrill can fire off lethal Earthquakes while Talonflame is jetting through the air and taking names. Another nifty thing about this core is that Earthquake or Rock Slide cannot nail them both; Talonflame is immune to Earthquake, while Excadrill quad resists Rock Slide. Thus the opponent cannot take both of them out in the same turn with either of the ubiquitous spread moves (unless the opponent uses both simultaneously).

Share with us some of the cores or Pokemon you've been trying out ;d