Zygarde's gonna be complete cancer and probably broken. No hp ice means it's best counter from gen 8 Tangrowth doesn't even break a substitute from sub coil sets. Also Fini is gonna suck due to defog removing terrain. At least it doesn't have Z moves but I'm still very concerned. Genesect and lele will be broken as well imo. Koko and kart could prove to be problematic later down the line. Don't unban Pheromosa and Naganadel please. Sad that Gliscor isn't back
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DLC2 Crown Tundra Speculation Thread [SPOILERS]
- Thread starter Finchinator
- Start date
- Status
Katy
Banned deucer.
Which Tapu do you think will be the best and worst?
it's not easy to predict this, but i think tapu bulu and tapu koko are great with added moves like close combat, which gives them coverage and stab in play rough and both - especially bulu - have a good attacking stat. i think close combat gives tapu koko a great option to bypass pkmn like magnezone and play rough gives it options to deal with latias / latios and dragonite / garchomp.
tapu lele gains expanding force with an already supergood spatt base which ias 130 and psychic terrain supporting the strength of expanding force i see pkmn like spdef corviknight and celesteela as great options to help against lele, and so far lele doesnt seem to get mystical fire, so they can act like great options to stop lele.
tapu fini on the other hand has an excellent defensive typing being water/fairy and great tools with natures madness and defog, which enables it to perform its role as a defogger pretty well, allthough its lack of reliable recovery sucks and i think it'll will hold tapu fini back a bit.
from best to worst tapu i think my personal order would be:
(potential sets: scarf, calm mind, specs, perhaps some dual-dance stuff)
(potential sets: specs, roost + attacks, banded)
(potential sets: spdef, sd + synthesis, banded)
(potential set: supportive defogger with natures madness + taunt)
but honestly all of them will be great in their own way.
Which long-time OU staple (Heatran, Garchomp, Landorus-Therian, Zapdos, Latios, Latias, etc.) are you most looking forward to returning and why?
hell ya gimme my boi landorus-t back, pls. imma waiting for him soooo long, i cant stress enough about my boi lando t, as it can run pretty much everything possible, from stealth rocks, to supportive defogger, to suicide lead and also scarf-sets. lando t will be a great addition to the tier imo, as it can check all the dangerous physical threats like zeraora and maybe dd-pult. it also checks the ground/dragon being garchomp, which itself is a great stealth rocker either offensive or defensive, maybe we see tankchomp-sets again. Choice scarf-chomp can be great too and swords dance-sets (with scale shot maybe) could act like a nice lategame-option with its excellent speed-tier. I love the lati-twins come back, but hell they gain the coverage they missed the previous gens to bypass certain pkmn, as they gain mystical fire and aura sphere. I think their potential sets could be scarf, specs and calm mind with their new tools they gain. Zapdos will be a great tool at defogging most likely.
What else are you excited about? What are you worried about? And what other observations do you have?
I think pokemon like zeraora could drop in usage and viability as lando t will come back and tapu bulu being around, i think tapu koko will be pretty much the better replacement even tho koko offers less speed than zeraora does. but 130 speed-tier is super-outstanding to begin with anyways.
other mons im hyped about are celesteela and kartana, celesteela will perform as a defensive option again maybe with earthquake as a kinda-lure for heatrans and kartana can run a lot of viable sets, from scarf to swords dance to band to synthesis-stuff.
the most excited mons for me are:
it's not easy to predict this, but i think tapu bulu and tapu koko are great with added moves like close combat, which gives them coverage and stab in play rough and both - especially bulu - have a good attacking stat. i think close combat gives tapu koko a great option to bypass pkmn like magnezone and play rough gives it options to deal with latias / latios and dragonite / garchomp.
tapu lele gains expanding force with an already supergood spatt base which ias 130 and psychic terrain supporting the strength of expanding force i see pkmn like spdef corviknight and celesteela as great options to help against lele, and so far lele doesnt seem to get mystical fire, so they can act like great options to stop lele.
tapu fini on the other hand has an excellent defensive typing being water/fairy and great tools with natures madness and defog, which enables it to perform its role as a defogger pretty well, allthough its lack of reliable recovery sucks and i think it'll will hold tapu fini back a bit.
from best to worst tapu i think my personal order would be:
(potential sets: scarf, calm mind, specs, perhaps some dual-dance stuff) (potential sets: specs, roost + attacks, banded) (potential sets: spdef, sd + synthesis, banded) (potential set: supportive defogger with natures madness + taunt)but honestly all of them will be great in their own way.
Which long-time OU staple (Heatran, Garchomp, Landorus-Therian, Zapdos, Latios, Latias, etc.) are you most looking forward to returning and why?
hell ya gimme my boi landorus-t back, pls. imma waiting for him soooo long, i cant stress enough about my boi lando t, as it can run pretty much everything possible, from stealth rocks, to supportive defogger, to suicide lead and also scarf-sets. lando t will be a great addition to the tier imo, as it can check all the dangerous physical threats like zeraora and maybe dd-pult. it also checks the ground/dragon being garchomp, which itself is a great stealth rocker either offensive or defensive, maybe we see tankchomp-sets again. Choice scarf-chomp can be great too and swords dance-sets (with scale shot maybe) could act like a nice lategame-option with its excellent speed-tier. I love the lati-twins come back, but hell they gain the coverage they missed the previous gens to bypass certain pkmn, as they gain mystical fire and aura sphere. I think their potential sets could be scarf, specs and calm mind with their new tools they gain. Zapdos will be a great tool at defogging most likely.
What else are you excited about? What are you worried about? And what other observations do you have?
I think pokemon like zeraora could drop in usage and viability as lando t will come back and tapu bulu being around, i think tapu koko will be pretty much the better replacement even tho koko offers less speed than zeraora does. but 130 speed-tier is super-outstanding to begin with anyways.
other mons im hyped about are celesteela and kartana, celesteela will perform as a defensive option again maybe with earthquake as a kinda-lure for heatrans and kartana can run a lot of viable sets, from scarf to swords dance to band to synthesis-stuff.
the most excited mons for me are:
I think that "Gotcha" is, in-universe, sung by the Maximizers, a band mentioned in an unused item.
Well we're finally here, things are about to get jacked up to 11 with all the legendary and almost all the mythical Pokemon coming back. Poor Hoopa and Manaphy, I'll miss you. Anyways, really excited 'cause this meta will push to more offensive builds even in more balanced style teams. I'm gonna go through and give my thoughts on the more important Pokemon being added:
Koko - This thing is WAY better this gen. Despite the terrain nerf, it overall does more damage on the special sets due to gaining Rising Voltage, which does more damage than Gen 7 terrain boosted Thunder. 140 BP move getting a natural 1.3x boost and stacked with something like Magnet, Life Orb or Choice Specs is nuts, plus it doesn't need rain like Thunder did. It doesn't stop there, it gained Play Rough for it's physical sets (YAY it can now threaten Garchomp lol) and Close Combat for Ferrothorn which is needed 'cause it lost Hidden Power Fire.
Despite losing Hidden Power Ice, it's still not too hindered by Ground-types, due to Grass Knot hitting most very large damage or straight up OHKOing the 4x Grass-weak Ground-types and having Dazzling Gleam to hit Lando-T and Garchomp hard. On top of that, Gliscor is not going to be added which was it best check as Sp.Def Gliscor could even take Hidden Power Ice due how bulky it was with Poison Heal. I wouldn't be surprised it got the quick-ban treatment and later re-tested.
Lele - This thing was busted in Gen 7 (you can't change my mind, this thing was stupid and at least deserved to be suspect tested) and now it's even more stupid. When a special move has a decent chance to 2HKO Blissey without stat buff, you know this thing is crazy. Expanding Force pretty much OHKOs or 2HKOs EVERYTHING. The best switch-ins are AV Magearna, AV Metagross, Sp.Def - Jirachi, Corviknight and Celesteela. That's it, that's pretty much it unless you're banking on risking a Dark-type against a Specs Moonblast.
As for Blissey and Chansey, you can also just slap Psyshock on as well as that cleanly 2HKOs. As for Sp.Def Jirachi and AV Metagross, 2HKO'd by Specs Shadow Ball (I'm talking Max HP/Sp.Def, with Careful nature). Sp.Def Corviknight only needs like 10-15% chip to be 2HKO'd and Celesteela is always 3HKO'd. This thing is so stupid that it 4HKO's 252 HP/252 Sp.Def Calm AV Magearna, which would get worn down easily anyways. This thing is getting banned, there's just no way LOL.
Bulu vs Rilla - I want to talk about these two together because obviously they're very similar in a lot ways. Both have access to Grassy Glide, both are physically offensive and they uses similar boosting moves in Bulk Up/Swords Dance. However, Bulu is stronger and better defensively while also being able to hit Dragon-types with Play Rough now and hitting Tangrowth with Megahorn which Rilla is restricted to Grassy Seed Acro for. It also has Close Combat now, which doesn't hinder it's power like Superpower does for Rilla. So does that mean Rilla is worthless now? Well yes-and-no...
Rilla is outclassed as Swords Dancer but it can still compete as a Choice Band user, due to it's move-pool arsenal of U-turn and Knock Off. U-turn provides momentum against checks like Corviknight into Magnezone, something that Bulu has to do via prediction. Knock Off also removes potential Shed Shell wielders, which can also help in trapping checks. Too be honest, if you're gonna run Swords Dance Rilla, just run it with Bulu for Grass-type spam teams. These two work really well in wearing down each others checks: while Rilla provides utility and momentum, Bulu uses it's raw power and better overall coverage to break Pokemon that Rilla would have troubles with. Overall, I say run Banded Rilla instead with SD Bulu and Grass-type spam go BRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!
Fini - Now for the worse out of the bunch, Fini. It didn't get a busted move like Expanding Force, Rising Voltage or Grassy Glide, but it is to note that it still got Terrain Pulse, which is 100BP Fairy-move while in Misty Terrain. It also gained Flip Turn for momentum, which is quite big as Fini often sapped momentum and was quite passive if it didn't have Nature's Madness. It does suck now that Defog removes terrains, which also means if you run Terrain Pulse over Moonblast, you lose your Fairy-type move. Removing your terrain means you can fish for Scald burn, but it also makes you vulnerable to being hit with Toxic. I can't really tell if Fini is worse or better honestly, I think we will have to wait until meta-game truly settles in.
Zapdos - seems on paper much better this generation without having to worry about Z-moves against the things it checked like Kartana. With Heavy-Duty Boots, it can avoid 25% chip from Stealth Rocks which can save it in various situations where Leftovers could not. It did lose Hidden Power Ice but gained Hurricane which hits super-hard on Ground-types like Lando-T and Garchomp regardless.
Offensive Zapdos looks very scary, as Flying-resists in Corviknight don't like Thunderbolt and Ferrothorn hates Heat Wave. I could see Offensive Zapdos on rain teams for 100% accurate Hurricanes and Thunders while also abusing Weather Ball for resists like Rhyperior. Tyranitar is this things bane still, as turns Weather Ball into a Rock-type move instead. I can see Tyranitar spiking in usage more for sand teams over Hippowdon, with it's current Sp.Def Rock Blast, Rest, Toxic set.
Moltres - is interesting. It still checks the likes of Scizor, Offensive Heatran, Excadrill (Without Tomb or Slide), Kartana and Bulu, while also checking the new Rillaboom. It also gained access to Scorching Sands which helps it beat Offensive and even Sp.Def Heatran and also with Heavy-Duty Boots it no longer has to worry about Stealth Rock so long as it doesn't get Knock'd Off. I think it's a good natural check for a lot teams, especially upcoming Grass spam teams which rely on Grassy Glide for their speed control.
Articuno - has a niche in previous generations on Stall teams with Heal Bell and Defog support. Now with Heavy-Duty Boots it's even better at that, as it pressures Pokemon like Lando-T and Hippo with Freeze-Dry which can also help with putting with Pex for Pressure stalling. I don't think it's magically OU top-tier, but the niche it filled, it's now even better at.
The Latis - are back and with a vengeance! Pursuit is no longer in the game, which means they aren't threaten by Ttar or Bisharp anymore and on top of that losing Hidden Power Fire means jack because they got Mystical Fire and Aura Sphere! Mystical Fire is stronger than Gen 5 Hidden Power with the added bonus of lowering the Sp. Atk of the opponent, which is nice for Fairy-type switch-ins like Clefable. Honestly I don't you even need Aura Sphere because Pursuit is gone, so everytime Ttar comes in, you switch out. Choice Specs Draco and Psychic/Psyshock is such as dangerous combination against Balance teams, especially now with better Fire-coverage for the likes of Corviknight and Ferrothorn.
I could see double latis teams which use Scarf Latias for faster Pokemon like Dragapult, Koko, Zeraora etc. which threaten Specs, CM or Life Orb Latios. I think Latios's best set is Life Orb with 3-Attacks + Roost set, as having the ability to switch-up your moves is so powerful with it's STABs and coverage, but Specs is still great. Really excited about the Latis, I think they're honestly busted now.
Heatran - didn't gain anything notable, but is it still a monster? Hell yeah. Heatran has always been a very strong contender for top dog of each generation and that doesn't look to change, especially with the lack of strong Water-types like Ash Greninja and Mega Swampert (with Dracovish also being banned). It offensively and defensively checks a lot of Pokemon within the tier, while also providing support in Stealth Rocks, Taunt, Toxic etc. Don't sleep on Heatran.
Thundurus... - God... I feel so bad for it. Tapu Koko is stronger than the last generation and on top of that it lost Hidden Power Ice. Also unlike Zapdos, it doesn't get Hurricane... The literal thunderstorm Pokemon doesn't learn Hurricane... It's get Weather Ball??? I guess??? but you're better off running Zapdos at this point.
The man(?), the myth, the legend - he's back and I'm glad he is honestly. Such a good Pokemon that offers great role compression and checks a lot of notable threats. I can brag on how good Lando-T is but... Well these last few gens probably gave us a fair clue.
Tornadus-Therian - If Nat Dex taught me anything, is that this thing was a pain in the ass to kill. Heavy-Duty Boots made chip damage irrelevant because not taking 25% and then being able to Regen any hit you took, is nasty on a offensive Pokemon that loves to pivot. On top of that, it now gets Nasty Plot... I'm not sure if this will get quick-banned, but I'm almost certain a suspect test will come in it's future.
King and Queen - These two look super cool in this meta-game. Nidoking smacks ClefPex and handles Steel-type partners with Flamethrower, while also being an offensive check to Koko. Nidoqueen is checks Koko better and provides Toxic Spikes while threatening Poison-types like Pex and non-levitate Galarian-Weezing.
Dragonite and Salamence - seems like an awesome defensive option now with Heavy-Duty Boots to keep it's Multiscale intact against Stealth Rocks. It checks a lot of Pokemon even some Dragon-types with Multiscale intact, while providing Defog support. I think Bulky Defog Dragonite is the wave for it this generation especially since Salamence gets Dual Wingbeat. It's overall a better offensive Dragon Dancer due to it's speed and Moxie. While Dual Wingbeat isn't the best Flying-type move (unless you're on Scyther), Salamence's high attack makes up for it.
Outclassed - Celesteela was loosing some steam at the end of the last generation and in this generation it's just outclassed overall by Corviknight. This thing will probably drop to UU and then get banned lol. Buzzwole the best Zygarde counter until Zygarde gets ultimately banned lol. It gets Close Combat this generation, but with Urshifu in the tier, I don't why you would use this over it. It seems like a decent Urshifu check though.
Broken Bugs - Pheromosa is still as broken and now it gets Close Combat so now it doesn't have risk High Jump Kick. Genesect is Genesect, it will probably be allowed for a bit and then hit brick back to Ubers. But hey, at least Primal Groudon won't around for it this gen.
Broken Dragons - Something to note with Naganadel is that Z-moves aren't a thing, so now it can't use Z-Draco to prevent it's +2 dropping back to neutral. This thing is still hella unhealthy though and will hit the brick probably at the same time with Pheromosa. Zygarde now setups in Tangrowth's and Lando-T's face now... Bulu does get Play Rough though... Eh????? This thing seems stupid and will probably get booted.
Wacky Clown - This thing doesn't auto-lose on Ttar match-ups now with Pursuit gone. It also gained access to Scorching Sands to pressure Ttar and threaten Heatran. I think legitimately Blacephalon is a big threat now and shouldn't be slept on.
The Stack - This thing gets Heat Crash which makes probably the only Pokemon that legitimately uses this move well 'cause it ways a tonne. Heat Crash let's it nuke Steel-types especially the ones that were neutral to Superpower. It also gets Body Bress which is neat for more defensive sets. I'm really excited to use Choice Band Staka again, it was one of my favourite more niche mons.
Lastly, Garchomp - It didn't get Dragon Dance... I'm sad. It does get Scale Shot so it can pull some SD + Scale Shot shenanigans. I still think Chomp will be decent as both a bulky and offensive rocker, but losing Z-moves did hurt for it.
Koko - This thing is WAY better this gen. Despite the terrain nerf, it overall does more damage on the special sets due to gaining Rising Voltage, which does more damage than Gen 7 terrain boosted Thunder. 140 BP move getting a natural 1.3x boost and stacked with something like Magnet, Life Orb or Choice Specs is nuts, plus it doesn't need rain like Thunder did. It doesn't stop there, it gained Play Rough for it's physical sets (YAY it can now threaten Garchomp lol) and Close Combat for Ferrothorn which is needed 'cause it lost Hidden Power Fire.
Despite losing Hidden Power Ice, it's still not too hindered by Ground-types, due to Grass Knot hitting most very large damage or straight up OHKOing the 4x Grass-weak Ground-types and having Dazzling Gleam to hit Lando-T and Garchomp hard. On top of that, Gliscor is not going to be added which was it best check as Sp.Def Gliscor could even take Hidden Power Ice due how bulky it was with Poison Heal. I wouldn't be surprised it got the quick-ban treatment and later re-tested.
Lele - This thing was busted in Gen 7 (you can't change my mind, this thing was stupid and at least deserved to be suspect tested) and now it's even more stupid. When a special move has a decent chance to 2HKO Blissey without stat buff, you know this thing is crazy. Expanding Force pretty much OHKOs or 2HKOs EVERYTHING. The best switch-ins are AV Magearna, AV Metagross, Sp.Def - Jirachi, Corviknight and Celesteela. That's it, that's pretty much it unless you're banking on risking a Dark-type against a Specs Moonblast.
As for Blissey and Chansey, you can also just slap Psyshock on as well as that cleanly 2HKOs. As for Sp.Def Jirachi and AV Metagross, 2HKO'd by Specs Shadow Ball (I'm talking Max HP/Sp.Def, with Careful nature). Sp.Def Corviknight only needs like 10-15% chip to be 2HKO'd and Celesteela is always 3HKO'd. This thing is so stupid that it 4HKO's 252 HP/252 Sp.Def Calm AV Magearna, which would get worn down easily anyways. This thing is getting banned, there's just no way LOL.
Bulu vs Rilla - I want to talk about these two together because obviously they're very similar in a lot ways. Both have access to Grassy Glide, both are physically offensive and they uses similar boosting moves in Bulk Up/Swords Dance. However, Bulu is stronger and better defensively while also being able to hit Dragon-types with Play Rough now and hitting Tangrowth with Megahorn which Rilla is restricted to Grassy Seed Acro for. It also has Close Combat now, which doesn't hinder it's power like Superpower does for Rilla. So does that mean Rilla is worthless now? Well yes-and-no...
Rilla is outclassed as Swords Dancer but it can still compete as a Choice Band user, due to it's move-pool arsenal of U-turn and Knock Off. U-turn provides momentum against checks like Corviknight into Magnezone, something that Bulu has to do via prediction. Knock Off also removes potential Shed Shell wielders, which can also help in trapping checks. Too be honest, if you're gonna run Swords Dance Rilla, just run it with Bulu for Grass-type spam teams. These two work really well in wearing down each others checks: while Rilla provides utility and momentum, Bulu uses it's raw power and better overall coverage to break Pokemon that Rilla would have troubles with. Overall, I say run Banded Rilla instead with SD Bulu and Grass-type spam go BRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!
Fini - Now for the worse out of the bunch, Fini. It didn't get a busted move like Expanding Force, Rising Voltage or Grassy Glide, but it is to note that it still got Terrain Pulse, which is 100BP Fairy-move while in Misty Terrain. It also gained Flip Turn for momentum, which is quite big as Fini often sapped momentum and was quite passive if it didn't have Nature's Madness. It does suck now that Defog removes terrains, which also means if you run Terrain Pulse over Moonblast, you lose your Fairy-type move. Removing your terrain means you can fish for Scald burn, but it also makes you vulnerable to being hit with Toxic. I can't really tell if Fini is worse or better honestly, I think we will have to wait until meta-game truly settles in.
Zapdos - seems on paper much better this generation without having to worry about Z-moves against the things it checked like Kartana. With Heavy-Duty Boots, it can avoid 25% chip from Stealth Rocks which can save it in various situations where Leftovers could not. It did lose Hidden Power Ice but gained Hurricane which hits super-hard on Ground-types like Lando-T and Garchomp regardless.
Offensive Zapdos looks very scary, as Flying-resists in Corviknight don't like Thunderbolt and Ferrothorn hates Heat Wave. I could see Offensive Zapdos on rain teams for 100% accurate Hurricanes and Thunders while also abusing Weather Ball for resists like Rhyperior. Tyranitar is this things bane still, as turns Weather Ball into a Rock-type move instead. I can see Tyranitar spiking in usage more for sand teams over Hippowdon, with it's current Sp.Def Rock Blast, Rest, Toxic set.
Moltres - is interesting. It still checks the likes of Scizor, Offensive Heatran, Excadrill (Without Tomb or Slide), Kartana and Bulu, while also checking the new Rillaboom. It also gained access to Scorching Sands which helps it beat Offensive and even Sp.Def Heatran and also with Heavy-Duty Boots it no longer has to worry about Stealth Rock so long as it doesn't get Knock'd Off. I think it's a good natural check for a lot teams, especially upcoming Grass spam teams which rely on Grassy Glide for their speed control.
Articuno - has a niche in previous generations on Stall teams with Heal Bell and Defog support. Now with Heavy-Duty Boots it's even better at that, as it pressures Pokemon like Lando-T and Hippo with Freeze-Dry which can also help with putting with Pex for Pressure stalling. I don't think it's magically OU top-tier, but the niche it filled, it's now even better at.
The Latis - are back and with a vengeance! Pursuit is no longer in the game, which means they aren't threaten by Ttar or Bisharp anymore and on top of that losing Hidden Power Fire means jack because they got Mystical Fire and Aura Sphere! Mystical Fire is stronger than Gen 5 Hidden Power with the added bonus of lowering the Sp. Atk of the opponent, which is nice for Fairy-type switch-ins like Clefable. Honestly I don't you even need Aura Sphere because Pursuit is gone, so everytime Ttar comes in, you switch out. Choice Specs Draco and Psychic/Psyshock is such as dangerous combination against Balance teams, especially now with better Fire-coverage for the likes of Corviknight and Ferrothorn.
I could see double latis teams which use Scarf Latias for faster Pokemon like Dragapult, Koko, Zeraora etc. which threaten Specs, CM or Life Orb Latios. I think Latios's best set is Life Orb with 3-Attacks + Roost set, as having the ability to switch-up your moves is so powerful with it's STABs and coverage, but Specs is still great. Really excited about the Latis, I think they're honestly busted now.
Heatran - didn't gain anything notable, but is it still a monster? Hell yeah. Heatran has always been a very strong contender for top dog of each generation and that doesn't look to change, especially with the lack of strong Water-types like Ash Greninja and Mega Swampert (with Dracovish also being banned). It offensively and defensively checks a lot of Pokemon within the tier, while also providing support in Stealth Rocks, Taunt, Toxic etc. Don't sleep on Heatran.
Thundurus... - God... I feel so bad for it. Tapu Koko is stronger than the last generation and on top of that it lost Hidden Power Ice. Also unlike Zapdos, it doesn't get Hurricane... The literal thunderstorm Pokemon doesn't learn Hurricane... It's get Weather Ball??? I guess??? but you're better off running Zapdos at this point.
The man(?), the myth, the legend - he's back and I'm glad he is honestly. Such a good Pokemon that offers great role compression and checks a lot of notable threats. I can brag on how good Lando-T is but... Well these last few gens probably gave us a fair clue.
Tornadus-Therian - If Nat Dex taught me anything, is that this thing was a pain in the ass to kill. Heavy-Duty Boots made chip damage irrelevant because not taking 25% and then being able to Regen any hit you took, is nasty on a offensive Pokemon that loves to pivot. On top of that, it now gets Nasty Plot... I'm not sure if this will get quick-banned, but I'm almost certain a suspect test will come in it's future.
King and Queen - These two look super cool in this meta-game. Nidoking smacks ClefPex and handles Steel-type partners with Flamethrower, while also being an offensive check to Koko. Nidoqueen is checks Koko better and provides Toxic Spikes while threatening Poison-types like Pex and non-levitate Galarian-Weezing.
Dragonite and Salamence - seems like an awesome defensive option now with Heavy-Duty Boots to keep it's Multiscale intact against Stealth Rocks. It checks a lot of Pokemon even some Dragon-types with Multiscale intact, while providing Defog support. I think Bulky Defog Dragonite is the wave for it this generation especially since Salamence gets Dual Wingbeat. It's overall a better offensive Dragon Dancer due to it's speed and Moxie. While Dual Wingbeat isn't the best Flying-type move (unless you're on Scyther), Salamence's high attack makes up for it.
Outclassed - Celesteela was loosing some steam at the end of the last generation and in this generation it's just outclassed overall by Corviknight. This thing will probably drop to UU and then get banned lol. Buzzwole the best Zygarde counter until Zygarde gets ultimately banned lol. It gets Close Combat this generation, but with Urshifu in the tier, I don't why you would use this over it. It seems like a decent Urshifu check though.
Broken Bugs - Pheromosa is still as broken and now it gets Close Combat so now it doesn't have risk High Jump Kick. Genesect is Genesect, it will probably be allowed for a bit and then hit brick back to Ubers. But hey, at least Primal Groudon won't around for it this gen.
Broken Dragons - Something to note with Naganadel is that Z-moves aren't a thing, so now it can't use Z-Draco to prevent it's +2 dropping back to neutral. This thing is still hella unhealthy though and will hit the brick probably at the same time with Pheromosa. Zygarde now setups in Tangrowth's and Lando-T's face now... Bulu does get Play Rough though... Eh????? This thing seems stupid and will probably get booted.
Wacky Clown - This thing doesn't auto-lose on Ttar match-ups now with Pursuit gone. It also gained access to Scorching Sands to pressure Ttar and threaten Heatran. I think legitimately Blacephalon is a big threat now and shouldn't be slept on.
The Stack - This thing gets Heat Crash which makes probably the only Pokemon that legitimately uses this move well 'cause it ways a tonne. Heat Crash let's it nuke Steel-types especially the ones that were neutral to Superpower. It also gets Body Bress which is neat for more defensive sets. I'm really excited to use Choice Band Staka again, it was one of my favourite more niche mons.
Lastly, Garchomp - It didn't get Dragon Dance... I'm sad. It does get Scale Shot so it can pull some SD + Scale Shot shenanigans. I still think Chomp will be decent as both a bulky and offensive rocker, but losing Z-moves did hurt for it.
I’m curious, why is everyone suggesting naganadel stay banned on release? Wasn’t what made it broken the fact it could run draco meteor nuke + power it with Z move to prevent the stat drop (and not drop its nasty plot boost if it has any). With heavy duty boots Blissey I think we have decent switch-ins to teleport offensive naganadel checks like dragapult before it ever gets a kill (speed boost).
I think it’s forced to run weaker dragon pulse now since Draco meteor will just make it lose stats to sweep. Lack of + 2 z move nuke makes it miss out on some kills to get rolling. If it options for a specs set then it’s weaker than Latios but has a higher speed tier.
Just wanna see more thoughts on naganadel maybe I’m wrong, it just seems hella nerfed since last gen.
I think it’s forced to run weaker dragon pulse now since Draco meteor will just make it lose stats to sweep. Lack of + 2 z move nuke makes it miss out on some kills to get rolling. If it options for a specs set then it’s weaker than Latios but has a higher speed tier.
Just wanna see more thoughts on naganadel maybe I’m wrong, it just seems hella nerfed since last gen.
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Shocked nobody has mentioned these three yet.
Zapdos-G - Flying/Fighting with Defiant! It gets Thunderous Kick which is fighting and lowers the opponent’s defense. Seems really good. It’s almost like a CAP, it just has a lot going for it but we need to see the stats first I suppose.
Moltres-G- Dark/Flying with Berserk. Dark move called Fiery Wrath which can flinch. I’m excited to see Berserk get some real use. I have stunted with meme setup Mandibuzz to be a bootleg Yveltal, I'm excited for this big upgrade.
Articuno-G- Psychic/Flying with Competitive with Psychic move Freezing Glare, which has a freeze chance. Definitely bound for lower tiers but will be a heat pick for YouTube clicks for sure. Psychic Flying is just an atrociously bad type, unless the freeze chance is something crazy I bet it settles into RU.
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Nasty plot + speed boost is still broken
You're over simplifying. Naga was banned 100% because of Z-moves. Look at the suspect thread, the whole thing is people calcing +2 Devastating Drake. Many more things can eat a hit now and blow it up because it has paper towel defenses (Tyranitar and Heatran). It's probably unhelathy but it's substantially less threatening without a 195 BP stab move that doesn't drop its stats. It's an ideal candidate to experiment with.
Functionally it's about the same as a Moxie DD Gyarados in that regard though, which isn't broken. The fact that it requires a KO to get to that +2 +1 state is different than Speed Boost. It also doesn't have access to anything that lets it puncture Heatran other than Thunderbolt. IDK, it's up in the air.
I think Smogon should create a tier between OU and Uber where things like Dracovish G-armanitan and all the Legendaries belong. Becuase these mons are inherently better than others and I firmly believe they warp any format in which they are allowed. Basically, stop warping OU with blatantly overtuned mons (looking at the Tapus, the genies, etc. And yeah, that means Regice never sees the light of play, oh well).
The fact that Jordy's tier list (which is great) has tran in S just speaks to how much Heatran just kinda invalidates stuff, like it's always done. 5 quad resistances and 2 immunites to common attacking types just beats so much stuff. If your dual Stabs are resisted by Heatran there are going to be matchups where you don't do anything at all. Especially now with the absence of Hp Ground people are gonna struggle to break through it. Here's a set I think will get use.
Heatran @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Defensive Heatran sets often ran lefties, and now with spikes being even more prevalent and Heatran's unfortunate neutrality to rocks, Boots may outclass Lefties as a heatran item. I don't have too much experience with nat dex or SM, but just theorymonning the uptick in grassy terrain setters, which make heatran only x1 weak to ground and give it lefties are all just benefitting tran, as well as the possible re-introduction of tran food such as Naganadel and Genesect.
Edits: Also with that Legendaries tier thing: please don't. We here at smogon don't like labels, and every label you do have is given to you by your own merit. We see past superficial things like Legendaries and Mythicals. Wynaut in Ubers? Of course.
But just imagine deeming Regigigas too powerful for OU LMAO.
I understand you're new around here, and this is a great idea! Everyone pretty much agrees that Koko and Lele are gonna be quickbanned ASAP, so recognizing that is pretty smart. With the genies, Torn-T is probably gonna be one of the first mons on the chopping block. No one is really sure how Lando-I is going to fare (or at least i'm not), but many people seem to think that Lando-I is gonna be busted again, so that's also probably correct. Torn-I and Torn-T struggle to exist with Zapdos in the picture, Torn-I isn't good, and Lando-T was never broken, it's just a glue mon.
Heatran @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Defensive Heatran sets often ran lefties, and now with spikes being even more prevalent and Heatran's unfortunate neutrality to rocks, Boots may outclass Lefties as a heatran item. I don't have too much experience with nat dex or SM, but just theorymonning the uptick in grassy terrain setters, which make heatran only x1 weak to ground and give it lefties are all just benefitting tran, as well as the possible re-introduction of tran food such as Naganadel and Genesect.
Edits: Also with that Legendaries tier thing: please don't. We here at smogon don't like labels, and every label you do have is given to you by your own merit. We see past superficial things like Legendaries and Mythicals. Wynaut in Ubers? Of course.
But just imagine deeming Regigigas too powerful for OU LMAO.
"Basically, stop warping OU with blatantly overtuned mons (looking at the Tapus, the genies, etc."
I understand you're new around here, and this is a great idea! Everyone pretty much agrees that Koko and Lele are gonna be quickbanned ASAP, so recognizing that is pretty smart. With the genies, Torn-T is probably gonna be one of the first mons on the chopping block. No one is really sure how Lando-I is going to fare (or at least i'm not), but many people seem to think that Lando-I is gonna be busted again, so that's also probably correct. Torn-I and Torn-T struggle to exist with Zapdos in the picture, Torn-I isn't good, and Lando-T was never broken, it's just a glue mon.
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Spyro
Banned deucer.
I´m very excited for this DLC drop.
Blaziken: Going to be fun using this. It has a bit of 4mss because it wants both Protect and Swords Dance. Hippowdon is a good check. If it's not running EQ it gets walled by Toxapex, If it's not running Knock Off it gets checked by Dragapult and Slowbro. Probably still broken but I don't think it should be on the quickban list.
Zygarde: With the loss of Hidden Power this thing becomes a menace with Glare which is a much better Thunder Wave + Substitute + Coil or DD. Don't see this staying in the tier for too long.
Garchomp: Scale Shot is such a nice addition and I honestly think SD + Scale Shot is just as good if not better than Dragon Dance because of the drastic attack boost from SD which turns many 3HKOS and 2HKOs into 2HKOs and OHKOs. Corv and Skarm get 2HKOd by +2 LO Fire Fang so yeah this thing will be a monster. Wouldn't be surprised if this gets suspected later.
Dragonite: Boots basically guarantee a Dragon Dance and Dual Wing Beat now hits Fairy types without having to run Iron Head which is nice. Can completely forego Dragon Claw and just run Ground Fire and Flying coverage or Ground + Flying + Roost for more DDs. Bulky Defog + Twave will work as well as it can check Rillaboom and can Defog easier than Corv with the return of Heatran.
Salamence. Dual Wingbeat and Scale Shot make this a lot better. I can see Scale Shot being used on CB + Moxie which could nicely clean up lategame once the Fairies are gone and Steels are gone or severely weakened. DD will also be fun.
Victini: This now gets Scorching Sands so doesn't have to rely on Brick Break or Focus Blast to hit Heatran which is really nice. Special/Mixed Victini with expert belt/LO will be a great lure with Blue Flare/V create Thunder/Bolt Strike Scorching Sands/Focus Blast and Glaciate with all the 4x ice weak ground types coming back as well as Dragonite and Mence. Also a monster with CB + Sun.
Latios/Latias: These 2 will be insane and S tier but Latios more obviously. They now have perfect coverage and the loss of Pursuit means they can't be punished much. They're also immune to Spikes so they can come in and out multiple times as they wish. I could see Latios going in the future and Latias staying in OU.
Pheromosa: Quickban plz
Genesect; It does have counters but since it U-turns all day and attacks with it's other moves when it's safe it´s still too much.
Tornadus T: If it gets Nasty Plot it will be too much.
The bird galarian forms: I´m excited for these 3. I´m guessing the Zapdos will have an insane speed tier. I hope they're viable enough to be mid/top OU cause those designs are sick. Hopefully the freeze chance from the move that Articuno gets is higher than 10% to spam the shit out of it lol.
The bird galarian forms: I´m excited for these 3. I´m guessing the Zapdos will have an insane speed tier. I hope they're viable enough to be mid/top OU cause those designs are sick. Hopefully the freeze chance from the move that Articuno gets is higher than 10% to spam the shit out of it lol.
This is smart. I can see Victini becoming similar to today's BL breakers: Frail but kinda uncounterable.I´m very excited for this DLC drop.
Blaziken: Going to be fun using this. It has a bit of 4mss because it wants both Protect and Swords Dance. Hippowdon is a good check. If it's not running EQ it gets walled by Toxapex, If it's not running Knock Off it gets checked by Dragapult and Slowbro. Probably still broken but I don't think it should be on the quickban list.
Zygarde: With the loss of Hidden Power this thing becomes a menace with Glare which is a much better Thunder Wave + Substitute + Coil or DD. Don't see this staying in the tier for too long.
Garchomp: Scale Shot is such a nice addition and I honestly think SD + Scale Shot is just as good if not better than Dragon Dance because of the drastic attack boost from SD which turns many 3HKOS and 2HKOs into 2HKOs and OHKOs. Corv and Skarm get 2HKOd by +2 LO Fire Fang so yeah this thing will be a monster. Wouldn't be surprised if this gets suspected later.
Dragonite: Boots basically guarantee a Dragon Dance and Dual Wing Beat now hits Fairy types without having to run Iron Head which is nice. Can completely forego Dragon Claw and just run Ground Fire and Flying coverage or Ground + Flying + Roost for more DDs. Bulky Defog + Twave will work as well as it can check Rillaboom and can Defog easier than Corv with the return of Heatran.
Salamence. Dual Wingbeat and Scale Shot make this a lot better. I can see Scale Shot being used on CB + Moxie which could nicely clean up lategame once the Fairies are gone and Steels are gone or severely weakened. DD will also be fun.
Victini: This now gets Scorching Sands so doesn't have to rely on Brick Break or Focus Blast to hit Heatran which is really nice. Special/Mixed Victini with expert belt/LO will be a great lure with Blue Flare/V create Thunder/Bolt Strike Scorching Sands/Focus Blast and Glaciate with all the 4x ice weak ground types coming back as well as Dragonite and Mence. Also a monster with CB + Sun.
Latios/Latias: These 2 will be insane and S tier but Latios more obviously. They now have perfect coverage and the loss of Pursuit means they can't be punished much. They're also immune to Spikes so they can come in and out multiple times as they wish. I could see Latios going in the future and Latias staying in OU.
Pheromosa: Quickban plz
Genesect; It does have counters but since it U-turns all day and attacks with it's other moves when it's safe it´s still too much.
Tornadus T: If it gets Nasty Plot it will be too much.
The bird galarian forms: I´m excited for these 3. I´m guessing the Zapdos will have an insane speed tier. I hope they're viable enough to be mid/top OU cause those designs are sick. Hopefully the freeze chance from the move that Articuno gets is higher than 10% to spam the shit out of it lol.
Also I think i heard somewhere that Articuno's Signature move is a scald% chance to freeze
Cancerous-T more like Galarian Cancercuno.
Get ready to bring out the ages-old Freeze Clause
ok I'm back and would like to give my thoughts about the ubers reentering the tier, mostly zygarde and genesect but I'll cover the others as well.
Simply put, zygarde, genesect, and pheromosa should all either stay unbanned at the start of the DLC or allowed back in but should be quickbanned within the first 2 weeks.
The metagame is very different from gen 7, particularly the loss of hidden power and z-moves being the biggest 2 changes. Zygarde is now better than ever, whole losing z-moves it no longer has to fear HP Ice from it's biggest counter tangrowth. It can go offensive or defensive with dragon tail or sub toxic. I wasn't around much for gen 7, but i know that the test was messy with many people calling for it for a long time but took a while to get banned. Pheromosa lost the nuke of normalium z so it struggles to break pex, but mauls the other mons in the tier. Its very unhealthy and i dont want to run pex on every team. Lastly, genesect is a better cinderace. It has strong powerful U-turns which can be further amplified by downloads and a boosting item plus a colorful array of coverage to defat its checks. Its wayy to strong as an offensive pivot. All 3 of these pokemon have proven to be very problematic in the past and Id rather not waste suspect time on such clear cut bans. Either keep them banned and retest them in the future or quick ban them at the beginning of DLC drops.
Both Blazikenn and Naganadel are also very threatening pokemon that are staring out in OU. While they appear banworthy, they are nowhere near the level of the other 3. Nagandel got nerfed with the loss of z-moves, no longer being able to nuke it's checks and counters and needs to boost up to start snowballing. It looks like it'll be banned in the future but not really quick ban worthy. Blaziken is having 4MSS, its more along the lines of suspect worthiness rather than quick ban. I need protect, SD, thunder punch, eatrthquake, and knock to beat its different checks and counters. Once again i think its more along the lines of a suspect than anything else on the list.
tl;dr: Quickban or don't even unban pheromosa, zygarde, and genesect, keep nagandel and blaziken in the tier for a while as they do have considerable nerfs and i want to see how they play out. Also, quick ban koko, lele, and torn-t, half this thread is saying how much they are broken. Kartana could be a problem, so its something I would keep an eye on in the future.
Simply put, zygarde, genesect, and pheromosa should all either stay unbanned at the start of the DLC or allowed back in but should be quickbanned within the first 2 weeks.
The metagame is very different from gen 7, particularly the loss of hidden power and z-moves being the biggest 2 changes. Zygarde is now better than ever, whole losing z-moves it no longer has to fear HP Ice from it's biggest counter tangrowth. It can go offensive or defensive with dragon tail or sub toxic. I wasn't around much for gen 7, but i know that the test was messy with many people calling for it for a long time but took a while to get banned. Pheromosa lost the nuke of normalium z so it struggles to break pex, but mauls the other mons in the tier. Its very unhealthy and i dont want to run pex on every team. Lastly, genesect is a better cinderace. It has strong powerful U-turns which can be further amplified by downloads and a boosting item plus a colorful array of coverage to defat its checks. Its wayy to strong as an offensive pivot. All 3 of these pokemon have proven to be very problematic in the past and Id rather not waste suspect time on such clear cut bans. Either keep them banned and retest them in the future or quick ban them at the beginning of DLC drops.
Both Blazikenn and Naganadel are also very threatening pokemon that are staring out in OU. While they appear banworthy, they are nowhere near the level of the other 3. Nagandel got nerfed with the loss of z-moves, no longer being able to nuke it's checks and counters and needs to boost up to start snowballing. It looks like it'll be banned in the future but not really quick ban worthy. Blaziken is having 4MSS, its more along the lines of suspect worthiness rather than quick ban. I need protect, SD, thunder punch, eatrthquake, and knock to beat its different checks and counters. Once again i think its more along the lines of a suspect than anything else on the list.
tl;dr: Quickban or don't even unban pheromosa, zygarde, and genesect, keep nagandel and blaziken in the tier for a while as they do have considerable nerfs and i want to see how they play out. Also, quick ban koko, lele, and torn-t, half this thread is saying how much they are broken. Kartana could be a problem, so its something I would keep an eye on in the future.
also sorry for doubling posting and not to be rude but this is a terrible mindset. legendary is just a title, most have lower BST than pseudos like goodra and kommo-o which have shown to not be broken at all. Just because lots of legendaries are too powerful for OU doesn't mean that all of them should be uber. We should not ban stuff like suicune, tapu bulu, zapdos, and many more legendaries when its only just a title. I hope you reconsider your point of view about this.
I wonder if boots will be quite as prevalent on Moltres-G to situationally pop Berserk. Obviously keeping HP is preferable but like, free +1 is free +1. Sort of a bummer it's not quad weak to rocks, could have been an interesting way to punish them.
Alternate forms: Zygarde-C in banned, Tornadus-T in banned, Landorus-T in great, Zygarde-10% in decent, Thundurus-T in niche
Here are my speculative thoughts on where all the returning Pokemon will stand in relation to the OU metagame.
Disclaimer: all my thoughts listed here are purely speculative.
Banned:
Genesect is still ridiculously good with the extremely wide variety of sets it can viably run, quickban. Expanding Force in Psychic Terrain is just way too overwhelming, quickban.
Pheromosa now has access to Heavy-Duty Boots to be an even better pivot, quickban.
The lack of Z-moves hurts it, but it still has insane coverage and the speed boost from Beast Boost in tandem with its 4x resistance to Grassy Glide probably makes it way too difficult for offensive teams to handle, quickban.
I think Blaziken should definitely get its fair chance in OU now that it lacks access to Z-moves. However, similarly to Nagandel, Speed Boost in tandem with Grassy Glide resistance spells doom for offensive teams, quickban. Similarly to Tapu Lele but not quite as broken, Rising Voltage in Electric Terrain just seems too overwhelming, quickban. Tornadus-T now gets access to Heavy-Duty Boots and Nasty Plot, which makes it both a ridiculously good Regenerator pivot and a major offensive threat. I think this Pokemon will be quickban-worthy too.
Landorus-I is still a really good wallbreaker, but maybe with Corviknight around it might stay around for a while. Still think it's probably going to be quickban-worthy though.
Similarly to last generation, I believe Zygarde will be able to run a variety of different viable sets, which makes it too hard to prepare for and pushes it over the edge, and now the lack of HP Ice benefits it too. If you're running Corviknight, Zapdos, or Moltres as your Ground immunity, good luck with Zygarde. However, as TPP has brought up, Zarude might actually make for a solid check to it since it can Bulk Up, use Jungle Healing to shake off Glare/Toxic, and hit through Zygarde's Coil boosts with Darkest Lariat. I think Zygarde is probably going to be banworthy, but might have to go through a suspect test first.Great:
I bet Landorus-T is once again going to be the most ubiquitous Pokemon in the metagame. Electric immunity, ground immunity, Intimidate, great Attack stat, good bulk, decent Speed, wide movepool including Stealth Rock and Defog, and so on make it a great fit for a wide variety of teams. The lack of HP Ice makes it even better, as it can now safely wall the vast majority of Electric-types (as well as opposing Landorus-T funnily enough). Who knows, perhaps this Pokemon could finally be on the chopping block? I believe Heatran will be at the top of the metagame. It matches up very well against the currently ubiquitous Clefable, Corviknight, and Toxapex. Additionally, with Gliscor not returning, there are barely any switch-ins it cannot punish with a set of Magma Storm/Earth Power/Toxic/Taunt, provided it doesn't miss of course. The lack of HP Ground also means it stonewalls Volcarona. Even though it doesn't have a Z-move to use, I believe Garchomp will be fantastic. It's a Stealth Rock setter that matches up well against some very important Pokemon, namely Heatran and, thanks to the lack of HP Ice, Zapdos and Moltres, meaning it can keep up Stealth Rock against these birds.
Zapdos benefits a lot from the addition of Heavy-Duty Boots, which I believe will make it one of the primary Defoggers (if Tornadus-T gets the boot at least). The loss of HP Ice does mean it will struggle against Ground-types like Garchomp though.
Moltres benefits even more from Heavy-Duty Boots and now gets Scorching Sands, which will allow it to check Heatran and keep its Stealth Rock off the field. Of course, its glaring weakness to Knock Off and Trick is a fairly big downside.
No Pursuit? No Greninja? Heavy-Duty Boots? Access to Scorching Sands to blow back Heatran and burn Tyranitar? Blacephalon absolutely loves the new generation. I'm excited to see how it will turn out. Kartana is amazing in SM and I think it will be a great Pokemon in SS as well. The lack of Z-moves keeps it in check, but the fact that it can fire off stuff like Choice Band-boosted Knock Offs into would-be checks like Corviknight, Zapdos, and Moltres is scary.
I think Victini will be better than ever. Heavy-Duty Boots should make it a really nice pivot and Choice Band or Choice Scarf with Trick promises to be great as well. The fact that it's one of the best checks to Heatran and Hydreigon is really big. However, the lack of reliable recovery and Defog removing its terrain is not ideal.
VinCune is the result of Primarina and Kyurem doing the fusion dance, while CroCune is probably one of the most reliable Heatran checks out there, so I think Suicune's going to be really good.
Heavy-Duty Boots make it guaranteed that the impact of the first hit it takes is going to be halved by Multiscale, which should allow for some fairly safe Dragon Dance setup. Combined with a new reliable STAB in Dual Wingbeat, I believe Dragonite will be a scary sight, especially to offensive teams.
The lack of Pursuit and the addition of Aura Sphere and Mystical Fire to its arsenal should make Latios quite good. It makes for a fairly solid Heatran check if anything. Grassy Glide Tapu Bulu is obviously great, but I'm not sure how well it can compete with Rillaboom, which has access to U-turn and Knock Off and is faster. Tapu Bulu does have that Fairy typing as well as Horn Leech and a newly acquired Play Rough though, which could potentially set it apart I suppose.Decent:
Thanks to its resistances to Fighting and Dark and fantastic physical bulk, Buzzwole makes for quite probably the most reliable Urshifu-S check out there.
With Sheer Force-boosted Sludge Wave, Earth Power, Ice Beam, and Flamethrower, Nidoking will be able to tear apart currently ubiquitous Clefable/Toxapex/Corviknight cores.
I actually think Raikou is quite slept on. It's an Electric-type that doesn't suffer from the loss of HP Ice very much, as it has acquired Scald as a new move, which is a great weapon against Ground-types like Landorus-T. Pressure is also useful. To me it seems like a better version of Calm Mind Zeraora.
Be it as a Choice Band wallbreaker, Trick Room cleaner, or Stealth Rock setter, I'm certain Stakataka can find a decent spot in the metagame. The biggest things that hold it back are its 4x weaknesses to both Fighting and Ground. While somewhat outclassed by Corviknight as a defensive Steel bird, I believe its superior offenses can help it find a decent niche.
Healing Wish and perhaps even Wish should give this a spot over Latios on certain teams.
Heavy-Duty Boots make Volcanion a lot better. I think it could be quite a solid Defog user, as Steam Eruption and Flamethrower cover quite a lot of hazard setters.
Azelf can function as a more offensive version of Nasty Plot Mew, which I believe to be fairly promising. Mew definitely does the hazard setter job better though.
Teams that rely on Corviknight, Skarmory, Zapdos, or Moltres as their Ground immunity will have a lot of trouble with Zydog.Niche:
With moves like Heat Wave, Superpower, and Grass Knot, Tornadus actually has solid coverage without the need for Hidden Power. Prankster Defog could also be nice with Heavy-Duty Boots.
With Heavy-Duty Boots to use, I think you can get fairly creative with how to use Salamence. The combination of Dragon Dance and Moxie is of course terrifying, but the lack of Z-moves might make it hard to get the ball rolling.
Heavy-Duty Boots boosts Articuno from garbage to usable, but I think its typing still holds it back. Ice doesn't give it any additional resistances over Zapdos or Moltres, since the only thing Ice resists is Ice itself and it's part Flying. Great special bulk, Heal Bell, and Pressure is a very nice combination though, so I could see it having a niche on stall teams. Thundurus-T is tremendously strong, but the loss of HP Ice (and Flying) hurts it a lot, as it now struggles to get past Landorus-T. Heavy-Duty Boots are nice for it though.
Same story as above but it can pull off some annoying Prankster Thunder Wave stuff too. A Defiant user that doesn't lose to Corviknight can potentially be nice as well.
Hits even harder and has a better boosting move than Thundurus, but it has less speed and defensive utility. The loss of HP Ice hurts a lot, but Energy Ball is neat.
With Heavy-Duty Boots and Sacred Fire I could see Entei having some niche defensive utility, akin to Arcanine and Flareon earlier this generation.
Nihilego can set Stealth Rock and even Toxic Spikes, while threatening Clefable and certain Defog users like Zapdos. The fact that a bunch of Fire-types like Moltres and Blacephalon get Scorching Sands now kinda hurts it though.
As we've already learned from Seismitoad and Gastrodon, Water/Ground has a lot of defensive utility as a typing. Stealth Rock and having a very favorable matchup against the likes of Heatran and Zapdos can give it a nice niche.
Cresselia is most likely going to be a staple on Trick Room teams again.
Uxie is a staple lead on such teams thanks to Stealth Rock + Trick Room + Memento.
Metagross could be an okay Choice Band user with access to Trick, Explosion, and priority in Bullet Punch.
Registeel might have enough defensive utility to be a niche Stealth Rock setter.
Being one of the fastest Taunt users out there could give it a niche over other hazard leads. It also gets Dragon Dance now, which is neat.Unviable:
I for one welcome our Heavy-Duty Boots and Pressure overlords.
And meteor beam, imo nihilego will have the same role of necrozma (lead+meteor beam) but just better
What do you guys think about Rocks vs. Spikes and Boots vs. Item? I kinda touched on this in my tran post but Spikes are only looking to get better as more Rocks weak mons run Heavy Duty Boots. However, many pokemon still weak to them like Victini and Blace really want a boosting item. What do you guys thinK?
I can’t put into words how happy I am about Greninja’s absence
RIP Gliscor tho
The legendary birds and genies are where I’ll be paying attention. Lando-I is probably as busted as ever, Torn gets NP now which could push it over the edge, Zapdos gets HURRICANE AND WEATHER BALL!!! ThunderCane Zap in rain sounds really terrifying. HDB on Articuno/Moltres is also amazing especially for the latter—it’s a Heatran answer, Pressure fogger, and Flame Body gamer and as such will be interesting.
The Lati twins have what is effectively “better HP Fire” now. Otherwise relatively unchanged—both appreciate the lack of competition from their megas, and it’ll be interesting to see whether Latios’ raw firepower or Latias’ movepool/superior item flexibility will win out. I expect Specs Trick Latios to be the best set given the lack of Pursuit and totally unpunishable Tricks in this format—there frankly isn’t anything that can consistently eat hots from it in this format that isn’t bopped by non-niche coverage options or Trick, so it may end up being broken.
The power level increase scares me a lot, and I am concerned that these issues will only be amplified by the limited dex’s options to counteract them. Legendary really does live up to its name now, and I think there will need to be a serious effort to keep it in check with suspects if we want this format to thrive. That said, a number of Pokémon that were greatly missed in a defensive capacity are back now (looking at Garchomp mostly but also Lando, Heatran, Latis, Fini, and birds) so we’ll have to see just how obnoxious the Pokémon I’m squinting at are in practice.
RIP Gliscor tho
The legendary birds and genies are where I’ll be paying attention. Lando-I is probably as busted as ever, Torn gets NP now which could push it over the edge, Zapdos gets HURRICANE AND WEATHER BALL!!! ThunderCane Zap in rain sounds really terrifying. HDB on Articuno/Moltres is also amazing especially for the latter—it’s a Heatran answer, Pressure fogger, and Flame Body gamer and as such will be interesting.
The Lati twins have what is effectively “better HP Fire” now. Otherwise relatively unchanged—both appreciate the lack of competition from their megas, and it’ll be interesting to see whether Latios’ raw firepower or Latias’ movepool/superior item flexibility will win out. I expect Specs Trick Latios to be the best set given the lack of Pursuit and totally unpunishable Tricks in this format—there frankly isn’t anything that can consistently eat hots from it in this format that isn’t bopped by non-niche coverage options or Trick, so it may end up being broken.
The power level increase scares me a lot, and I am concerned that these issues will only be amplified by the limited dex’s options to counteract them. Legendary really does live up to its name now, and I think there will need to be a serious effort to keep it in check with suspects if we want this format to thrive. That said, a number of Pokémon that were greatly missed in a defensive capacity are back now (looking at Garchomp mostly but also Lando, Heatran, Latis, Fini, and birds) so we’ll have to see just how obnoxious the Pokémon I’m squinting at are in practice.
I haven't seen anyone talking about Suicune and it's honestly slightly surprising. Yes, I know Koko and Bulu especially are breathing down its neck every second of its life, but allow me to explain.
Suicune @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 160 Def / 96 Spe
Bold Nature
- Calm Mind
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Scald
This was the OU/UU CroCune spread last gen, the sixth incarnation of the infamous set that has been a part of OU in at least some small way since the introduction of Calm Mind in Ruby and Sapphire. In more recent gens it has fallen off for one reason or another, but those reasons generally relate to a rising power level that Suicune was unable to keep up with enough to stay in the tier, although it has been given an analysis for OU in every single generation since its own creation. With SS having a lower power level overall thus far and with the return of Megas and Z-Moves unlikely (the former doubtful and the latter nigh impossible) as well as Dynamax banned, I believe Suicune has at least a chance to be OU. I believe it will be more likely to run a VinCune set with Ice Beam over Substitute though, as it would more effectively deal with current bulky Grass types like Tangrowth as well as the Dragon types that can outpace it in setup such as Hydreigon, as well as newcomers like Garchomp and (possibly) Zygarde.
Another Mon potentially worth looking into is Regigigas.
On the "offensive" end, if the HOME datamine from eons ago is to be believed, it gained access to both Protect and Rest, which finally allow it to stall out Slow Start turns, Protect enabling it do so for at least three. On the defensive end, in the same vein, it gained Body Press, which is not dependent on its abysmal Attack stat (at least, for five turns), and this makes defensive Regigigas sets a potential reality based on its already existing supportive/defensive movepool, which is definitely serviceable, albeit somewhat limited. While Normal is not an amazing defensive typing, it has absolutely fantastic 110/110/110 bulk which further backs this up.
Maybe I'm just crazy though, feel free to let me know what y'all think.
Suicune @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 160 Def / 96 Spe
Bold Nature
- Calm Mind
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Scald
This was the OU/UU CroCune spread last gen, the sixth incarnation of the infamous set that has been a part of OU in at least some small way since the introduction of Calm Mind in Ruby and Sapphire. In more recent gens it has fallen off for one reason or another, but those reasons generally relate to a rising power level that Suicune was unable to keep up with enough to stay in the tier, although it has been given an analysis for OU in every single generation since its own creation. With SS having a lower power level overall thus far and with the return of Megas and Z-Moves unlikely (the former doubtful and the latter nigh impossible) as well as Dynamax banned, I believe Suicune has at least a chance to be OU. I believe it will be more likely to run a VinCune set with Ice Beam over Substitute though, as it would more effectively deal with current bulky Grass types like Tangrowth as well as the Dragon types that can outpace it in setup such as Hydreigon, as well as newcomers like Garchomp and (possibly) Zygarde.
Another Mon potentially worth looking into is Regigigas.
On the "offensive" end, if the HOME datamine from eons ago is to be believed, it gained access to both Protect and Rest, which finally allow it to stall out Slow Start turns, Protect enabling it do so for at least three. On the defensive end, in the same vein, it gained Body Press, which is not dependent on its abysmal Attack stat (at least, for five turns), and this makes defensive Regigigas sets a potential reality based on its already existing supportive/defensive movepool, which is definitely serviceable, albeit somewhat limited. While Normal is not an amazing defensive typing, it has absolutely fantastic 110/110/110 bulk which further backs this up.
Maybe I'm just crazy though, feel free to let me know what y'all think.
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I doubt Fini will want to use Terrain Pulse -- an increase of BP from 95 to 100 isn't worth losing the 30% chance for a clutch special attack drop most of the time, unless that difference happens to net it a specific KO.
Hype as fuck right now and why not share that hype in a post, I'm gonna be talking about what could happen and stuff that might or might not change for these Pokemon.
Kartana
Alrighty so first is Kartana, now I will be honest with you, I don't think Grassy Glide is going to turn Kartana into a ferocious demon that kills everything in its path, because it needs Grassy Terrain support in order to do that, in all honesty I do not really know how the shift into gen 8 will affect Kartana, because while losing Z-moves are a big blow to its nuking and snowballing ability, I feel the lack of HP is huge benefit on this Pokemon as it doesn't need to worry about stuff like Tangrowth beating it with the right one, and Grassy Glide existing now is gonna be huge for terrain teams, speaking of terrain teams.
Terrain teams
I feel with all the broken moves being released in Isle of Armor, as well as the Tapus getting them other than Fini, I feel Terrain Teams are gonna be absolutely insane in this meta in my opinion, and this is because all of these Pokemon are great Pokemon in their own right, either being a great offensive pivot like Tapu Koko, or being amazing breakers like Tapu Lele, Rillaboom and Tapu Bulu, and not to mention how Hawlucha being an amazing abuser of terrains, and other stuff such as Alolan Raichu for Electric terrain teams, sweepers such as Gyarados and Salamence on Psychic terrain teams, who are definitely susceptible to priority, and Grassy terrain teams who have Kartana.
Tornadus-T
I feel Tornadus-T is gonna be quite insane, maybe a little broken. We all remember what makes Tornadus-T so good, its a phenomenal offensive utility Pokemon that seems to never actually die because of Regenerator, which allows it to outlast all of its checks, now lets take that Pokemon, and give that same Pokemon Nasty Plot, remember, this is a Pokemon that is insanely fast and is a mon that outlasts its checks and counters over the course of the game because Regenerator is just that good, so no, I do not think Tornadus-T is gonna be balanced for that reason specifically, especially when you add in its great offensive movepool that no one really used since its utility sets were so good on their own, but you have Grass Knot, Focus Blast, Heat Wave, even Sludge Wave, I feel Tornadus-T is going to be a tad bit broken.
Zygarde
Alrighty, I feel that Zygarde is still going to be broken as fuck, now I know Z-Moves being gone is technically a blow to its snowballing capabilities when it gets going, but at the same time I don't really think that matters because of the removal of Hidden Power, Hidden Power Ice being gone is such a huge boon to this Pokemon because this thing was already absurdly hard to actually kill especially when you factor moves like Substitute, Toxic and Glare, which allow it to pretty much cheese through the little checks and counters that it has, now you removal Hidden Power Ice, which makes Tangrowth, a pretty great answer to Zygarde because of HP Ice, now becoming obsolete because of this, and the loss of Z-Moves doesn't really hurt its versatility and customizability, which is one of the main reasons that Zygarde is such a phenomenal Pokemon, so no, Zygarde is not going to be balanced in my eyes.
Returning OU Giants
These 3 Pokemon in particular are finally back, woot woot, and they are gonna be as amazing as they were before. Heatran is going to be amazing, obviously, not only because of its amazing defensive utility but because its sometimes a huge threat because of tools like Magma Storm and Taunt, which is amazing for trapping and beating Toxapex, and offensive sets with 3a and Rocks, I cannot see this being anywhere other than the top, Landorus-T has never been a bad OU Pokemon, its pretty much always been a metagame defining monster and I feel it will get better, the lack of Z-Moves suck for it, but just like Zygarde, the lack of Hidden Power Ice is such a huge boon to this Pokemon that it doesn't really matter in my eyes because its ridiculous role compression and general utility are just so incredibly valuable to almost any and every team that I just cannot see this not being better than it was before, and lastly Garchomp, I feel the lack of Rockium and Dragonium Z definitely hurts Garchomp a bit because thats what made its Offensive SR set so damn good, but I feel its going to be a certified OU Pokemon, its a super threatening Pokemon and Dragon Dance being added to its kit is pretty neat too for more offensive sets, but I feel SD sets are still going to be the name of Garchomp's game in my opinion.
Kartana
Alrighty so first is Kartana, now I will be honest with you, I don't think Grassy Glide is going to turn Kartana into a ferocious demon that kills everything in its path, because it needs Grassy Terrain support in order to do that, in all honesty I do not really know how the shift into gen 8 will affect Kartana, because while losing Z-moves are a big blow to its nuking and snowballing ability, I feel the lack of HP is huge benefit on this Pokemon as it doesn't need to worry about stuff like Tangrowth beating it with the right one, and Grassy Glide existing now is gonna be huge for terrain teams, speaking of terrain teams.
Terrain teams
I feel with all the broken moves being released in Isle of Armor, as well as the Tapus getting them other than Fini, I feel Terrain Teams are gonna be absolutely insane in this meta in my opinion, and this is because all of these Pokemon are great Pokemon in their own right, either being a great offensive pivot like Tapu Koko, or being amazing breakers like Tapu Lele, Rillaboom and Tapu Bulu, and not to mention how Hawlucha being an amazing abuser of terrains, and other stuff such as Alolan Raichu for Electric terrain teams, sweepers such as Gyarados and Salamence on Psychic terrain teams, who are definitely susceptible to priority, and Grassy terrain teams who have Kartana.
Tornadus-T
I feel Tornadus-T is gonna be quite insane, maybe a little broken. We all remember what makes Tornadus-T so good, its a phenomenal offensive utility Pokemon that seems to never actually die because of Regenerator, which allows it to outlast all of its checks, now lets take that Pokemon, and give that same Pokemon Nasty Plot, remember, this is a Pokemon that is insanely fast and is a mon that outlasts its checks and counters over the course of the game because Regenerator is just that good, so no, I do not think Tornadus-T is gonna be balanced for that reason specifically, especially when you add in its great offensive movepool that no one really used since its utility sets were so good on their own, but you have Grass Knot, Focus Blast, Heat Wave, even Sludge Wave, I feel Tornadus-T is going to be a tad bit broken.
Zygarde
Alrighty, I feel that Zygarde is still going to be broken as fuck, now I know Z-Moves being gone is technically a blow to its snowballing capabilities when it gets going, but at the same time I don't really think that matters because of the removal of Hidden Power, Hidden Power Ice being gone is such a huge boon to this Pokemon because this thing was already absurdly hard to actually kill especially when you factor moves like Substitute, Toxic and Glare, which allow it to pretty much cheese through the little checks and counters that it has, now you removal Hidden Power Ice, which makes Tangrowth, a pretty great answer to Zygarde because of HP Ice, now becoming obsolete because of this, and the loss of Z-Moves doesn't really hurt its versatility and customizability, which is one of the main reasons that Zygarde is such a phenomenal Pokemon, so no, Zygarde is not going to be balanced in my eyes.
Returning OU Giants
These 3 Pokemon in particular are finally back, woot woot, and they are gonna be as amazing as they were before. Heatran is going to be amazing, obviously, not only because of its amazing defensive utility but because its sometimes a huge threat because of tools like Magma Storm and Taunt, which is amazing for trapping and beating Toxapex, and offensive sets with 3a and Rocks, I cannot see this being anywhere other than the top, Landorus-T has never been a bad OU Pokemon, its pretty much always been a metagame defining monster and I feel it will get better, the lack of Z-Moves suck for it, but just like Zygarde, the lack of Hidden Power Ice is such a huge boon to this Pokemon that it doesn't really matter in my eyes because its ridiculous role compression and general utility are just so incredibly valuable to almost any and every team that I just cannot see this not being better than it was before, and lastly Garchomp, I feel the lack of Rockium and Dragonium Z definitely hurts Garchomp a bit because thats what made its Offensive SR set so damn good, but I feel its going to be a certified OU Pokemon, its a super threatening Pokemon and Dragon Dance being added to its kit is pretty neat too for more offensive sets, but I feel SD sets are still going to be the name of Garchomp's game in my opinion.
Play Rough Bulu is the new Timid Kartana.
OU is going to be overrun with Helmet Garchomps, Tapus and Heatran early on. Can't wait to try All-Out Attacker Stakataka.
Also:
Can someone explain to me how Buzzwole is only considered a Urshifu "check"? It is a full-on counter:
252+ Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 248 HP / 184+ Def Buzzwole on a critical hit: 97-114 (23.2 - 27.3%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Urshifu Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 184+ Def Buzzwole: 86-102 (20.6 - 24.4%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
Also:
Can someone explain to me how Buzzwole is only considered a Urshifu "check"? It is a full-on counter:
252+ Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 248 HP / 184+ Def Buzzwole on a critical hit: 97-114 (23.2 - 27.3%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Urshifu Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 184+ Def Buzzwole: 86-102 (20.6 - 24.4%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
- Status