Charizard X is only weak to Rock Ground and Dragon....
Rotom-H should be the most preferred Fire tank though thx to that amazing typing with Levitate that turns the x4Ground into an immunity.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Other Defensive Fire-typing
- Thread starter mrglass
- Start date
- Status
Rotom-H should be the most preferred Fire tank though thx to that amazing typing with Levitate that turns the x4Ground into an immunity.
Yeah, my bad with this Fairy typing. It's neutral to it as well. Although it doesn't change fact that those weaknesses he has left are easy to cover with good partners, which I mentioned before.
People should still not call Fire typing bad, because let's face it - it can be great, which I proved in previous post. I think people only call them bad because SR screw them up. Only this reason, without even checking stuff out. Realistically, when you analyze it SR was really the only reason holding those back from being OU materials. But right now - IMO they deserve and actually IMO will end up in OU just because how good they are and how much easier is to keep rocks of field.
Keep in mind, though, that before Generation IV there was exactly ONE Pokemon that ever got above OU status (on defensive OR offensive merit), and that was Ho-Oh, which was arguably the worst Uber in GSC and severely underused (and, granted, underrated) in RSE. Getting to Generation IV, we got Heatran and Infernape, and in Generation V, Ninetales and Blaziken jumped up to OU and Ubers respectively, with Volcarona joining Heatran and Infernape in OU. Even before Stealth Rock, Fire-typing was a defensive liability. The most common Pokemon in the game before Generation II usually had something like Surf, Hydro Pump, Earthquake, and/or Rock Slide, which has widespread distribution and good power; this more than anything kept Fire-types in check. And just when they looked like they had a chance, Generation IV introduced Stealth Rock and Generation V gave Drizzle to Politoed, instantly making Fire-typing a detriment not just because of its weaknesses, but because of how common these TWO threats were.
There's only three Pokemon mentioned that could possibly be considered "defensive": Heatran, Ho-Oh, and Volcarona (and the latter two are pushing it.) Heatran is unquestionably a fantastic defensive Pokemon, but its weaknesses are so crippling that people employ Air Balloons or Chople Berries to counter them. Ho-Oh has absolutely titanic defenses (106/90/154, WHAT), Roost/Recover, 50% burn from Sacred Fire, and Regenerator to sit on things all day. Volcarona has underrated defensive capabilities; however, its longevity through recovery in Roost and Giga Drain and neutrality gained to Fire and Ground through Bug/Fire typing is neutered by the ubiquity of Water- and Rock-type coverage.
I agree: Fire had the POTENTIAL to be a great defensive typing. But Pokemon isn't played in a bubble, and the game has never really been friendly to it. The new Generation hasn't given it many new toys besides a resistance to the hyped Fairy-type. It's more than just what a Pokemon resists; Water, Ground, and Rock types are quite possibly the three most common offensive types in the game, and this has more than kept a lot of Fire-types in check, no matter how strong their defenses are. Even adding a secondary typing more often than not adds or amplifies weaknesses rather than neutralizing them. And trying to offset its weaknesses as a defensive typing through dual-typing and/or ability more often than not has neutered may be an indication that a Pokemon really needs to be given a lot of tools in order to overcome what a liability Fire-typing can be defensively.
The type chart just doesn't quite work out in Fire's favor, because of the three weaknesses; Water, Ground, and Rock. There is no dual type you can tack on that neutralizes TWO of the weaknesses. Fire/Water is still weak to Ground and Rock. Fire/Steel is still weak to Water and Ground. Fire/Fighting is still weak to Water and Ground. Fire/Dragon is still weak to Ground and Rock. The only option would be Fire/Grass, and now you're neutral to Water and Ground...but that type doesn't even exist. Fire/Bug comes close but only neutralizes one weakness.
Compare Grass. Grass is weak to Flying, Fire, Ice and Poison. Grass/Steel is neutral to Flying and Ice and immune to Poison. A dual type eliminated 3 weaknesses.
Compare Water, which is only weak to Grass and Electric. Water/Grass takes care of that, Water/Ground is a fair trade for an Immunity, and Water/Electric is also a good trade.
What about Steel, weak to Fighting, Fire, and Ground? Steel/Flying neutralizes a weakness and immunizes one. Steel/Bug neutralizes two weaknesses. Steel/Ghost immunizes one.
Fire is not a bad type. It is a very good type. Fire has key resistances that make the Fire pokemon with the right stats and abilities very good at their roles. Heatran and Volcarona can be very defensive. Ho-Oh, Arceus-Fire, and Reshiram are bulky as hell. Ninetales and Victini had just enough bulk to survive what they needed to. And Fire definitely has the best defense if you're facing down a Bug or Grass type. Fire COULD be a more defensive oriented type if the right pokemon was made, but not many exist right now.
Compare Grass. Grass is weak to Flying, Fire, Ice and Poison. Grass/Steel is neutral to Flying and Ice and immune to Poison. A dual type eliminated 3 weaknesses.
Compare Water, which is only weak to Grass and Electric. Water/Grass takes care of that, Water/Ground is a fair trade for an Immunity, and Water/Electric is also a good trade.
What about Steel, weak to Fighting, Fire, and Ground? Steel/Flying neutralizes a weakness and immunizes one. Steel/Bug neutralizes two weaknesses. Steel/Ghost immunizes one.
Fire is not a bad type. It is a very good type. Fire has key resistances that make the Fire pokemon with the right stats and abilities very good at their roles. Heatran and Volcarona can be very defensive. Ho-Oh, Arceus-Fire, and Reshiram are bulky as hell. Ninetales and Victini had just enough bulk to survive what they needed to. And Fire definitely has the best defense if you're facing down a Bug or Grass type. Fire COULD be a more defensive oriented type if the right pokemon was made, but not many exist right now.
Based purely on the OP's question on whether is a good defensive type, the answer is yes. 6 resistances and 3 weaknesses are in it's favor. Yes, those weaknesses themselves are unfortunate but there are a few things that Fire has going for it that make it a unique defensive typing, but more specifically great defensive pivots.
- Fire types may only have a few really defensive oriented candidates, or those with a high enough BST that can go bulky if they wish. But like Steel is immune to Toxic which is huge, Fire is immune to Burn. A still quite damaging turn-by-turn move that also would hamper their attack ability. A fair trade off. (Further kudos to Heatran for being immune to both)
- Speaking of burns virtually all Fire types have access to Will-O-Wisp, a move that with it's increased accuracy can artificially make many Fire types insanely more bulky. Specially defensive Fire types would benefit greatly here.
- Sunny Day essentially neuters their Water weakness as well as power their STAB. Using the move by itself is NOT a horrible idea when weather is going to be less common. Those with Morning Sun can also heal up to full.
- Moltres, Charizard Y and Rotom-H with Sunny Day up all eliminate both their Water and Ground weaknesses. Moltres has great mixed bulk and can use Roost and resists Fighting as well. Charizard Y virtually always has a lack of a Water weakness, for five turns at least (yes, has to Megavolve first). And Rotom-H has the bulk of Rotom-W, arguably better stab and even more resistances.
- Don't count Entei out. 115/85/75 are hardly poor for defensive stats and 115/90/100 are real good offensive stats too. Plus it will be able to get Flash Fire at some point making for even safer switches and has access to WoW or Reflect to protect itself physically and Calm Mind as well. Lava Plume has 30% chance to burn also.
- Victini trades its resistance to Bug for a resistance to Psychic and Fighting, two very welcome resistances, for a Dark weakness. Vitctini is blessed with 100 stats across the board and it's ability let's it throw out the most naturally accurate WoW at 93.5%. Searing Shot is 100 BP and 100% accurate with 30% burn chance and it can learn Thunderbolt or hell an improved 90 BP Energy Ball that covers all three Fire weaknesses. Great support movepool as well.
- Assault Vest can be a god send on those Fire types with a wide attack pool (Victini, Arcanine) and wants to be an even better pivot. Arcanine in particular with Intimidate will essentially have 90/120/120 defenses every time it switches in!
So yeah, Fire isn't even close to being a poor defensive typing. Numerous changes to the meta actually make it one of the better ones if you really dig deep. Don't confuse Fire as a defensive type and Fire types as walls, that's totally different. Fire is a great pivot and one of the best offensive STABs to have as well. Those three weaknesses hurt but Steel has horrible weaknesses too in Fire, Ground and Fighting. Fighting and Fire arguably worse weaknesses than Rock, particularly with Defog. I wouldn't use a Fire as your sole defensive wall, but neither would I say a single Steel is good for that either.
- Fire types may only have a few really defensive oriented candidates, or those with a high enough BST that can go bulky if they wish. But like Steel is immune to Toxic which is huge, Fire is immune to Burn. A still quite damaging turn-by-turn move that also would hamper their attack ability. A fair trade off. (Further kudos to Heatran for being immune to both)
- Speaking of burns virtually all Fire types have access to Will-O-Wisp, a move that with it's increased accuracy can artificially make many Fire types insanely more bulky. Specially defensive Fire types would benefit greatly here.
- Sunny Day essentially neuters their Water weakness as well as power their STAB. Using the move by itself is NOT a horrible idea when weather is going to be less common. Those with Morning Sun can also heal up to full.
- Moltres, Charizard Y and Rotom-H with Sunny Day up all eliminate both their Water and Ground weaknesses. Moltres has great mixed bulk and can use Roost and resists Fighting as well. Charizard Y virtually always has a lack of a Water weakness, for five turns at least (yes, has to Megavolve first). And Rotom-H has the bulk of Rotom-W, arguably better stab and even more resistances.
- Don't count Entei out. 115/85/75 are hardly poor for defensive stats and 115/90/100 are real good offensive stats too. Plus it will be able to get Flash Fire at some point making for even safer switches and has access to WoW or Reflect to protect itself physically and Calm Mind as well. Lava Plume has 30% chance to burn also.
- Victini trades its resistance to Bug for a resistance to Psychic and Fighting, two very welcome resistances, for a Dark weakness. Vitctini is blessed with 100 stats across the board and it's ability let's it throw out the most naturally accurate WoW at 93.5%. Searing Shot is 100 BP and 100% accurate with 30% burn chance and it can learn Thunderbolt or hell an improved 90 BP Energy Ball that covers all three Fire weaknesses. Great support movepool as well.
- Assault Vest can be a god send on those Fire types with a wide attack pool (Victini, Arcanine) and wants to be an even better pivot. Arcanine in particular with Intimidate will essentially have 90/120/120 defenses every time it switches in!
So yeah, Fire isn't even close to being a poor defensive typing. Numerous changes to the meta actually make it one of the better ones if you really dig deep. Don't confuse Fire as a defensive type and Fire types as walls, that's totally different. Fire is a great pivot and one of the best offensive STABs to have as well. Those three weaknesses hurt but Steel has horrible weaknesses too in Fire, Ground and Fighting. Fighting and Fire arguably worse weaknesses than Rock, particularly with Defog. I wouldn't use a Fire as your sole defensive wall, but neither would I say a single Steel is good for that either.
They could easily make a mono-Fire type with a tankish spread, some good boosting moves, and a good support movepool with reliable recovery... I think it'd be more than viable. CAP should look into this *nudgenudgewink* If fairies take off (which I am starting to doubt that they will...) and WoW becomes more widely used Fire could be a great boon just for the ability to switch into those two things.
Didn't really care for Mollux. It was good for every reason BUT being a fire type it seems... like they had to design it in such a way as to work around the fire type as opposed to taking advantage of it, which I thought was stupid. But I get what you're saying.
I really Like the idea of Rotom-H being a Nice Check to Talonflame,Gourgiest and being able to cripple Aegishield. 3 Rather common pokemon around at the moment. Not to mention Being Immune to Earthquake from Ladurous (although not enjoying a stone edge) and being able to do nice damage to most spinners. This while being immnue to paralysis from klefki and burn from anything.
Giant rainbow bird wants a word with you
Don't really agree. Other than Dry Skin, what was a clear work around of fire type? Poison typing added NOTHING to it other than a double resist, fighting resist and immunity to toxic.
I think Mollusk was a good example of an actual defensive fire type. The only thing I think was excessive was Rapid Spin. It didn't even have super amazing bulk which shows you how handy those resists can be.
Last edited:
Garchompi
Banned deucer.
Too bad it took an ability that GF would never give to a fire type to make it viable. Any type combination can work when you give it a tremendously powerful stats and ability - look at Tyranitar's horrid defensive type (seven weaknesses, one of them being 4x), but it still works as a defensive pokemon thanks to Sand Stream.
The only major thing holding fire back defensively is stealth rock, which is easier to keep off the field this generation due to Defog as being an additional option to Rapid Spin, Magic Bounce, Taunt, etc. Assuming I could keep rocks away, Volcarona has a reasonably good defensive typing otherwise - 3 weaknesses, 6 resistances (many to common attacking types), neutral to many other common attacking types. As anyone who has played me can say, a bulky Volcarona is very difficult to kill unless you have a physical attacker with Stone Edge or Specs Keldeo in the rain (less common now due to rain nerf).
That being said, worst type is Rock, due to how common 4x weaknesses to very common attacking types are with Rock + another type, and the low speed/special defenses of most Rock types. Ice is a very close second.
That being said, worst type is Rock, due to how common 4x weaknesses to very common attacking types are with Rock + another type, and the low speed/special defenses of most Rock types. Ice is a very close second.
I used to run a gimmicky Magcargo in ubers specifically to counter sun boosted and spec'ed reshirams. x4 fire resistance, full SpD and HP EV's, lefties, yawn, protect, toxic, and recover. I would often throw people off by yawning their pokes on switch in's after they realized they weren't gonna touch that magcargo, forcing more switches, or a dead magcargo + slept poke on their team. It was gimmicky as hell, only filled a niche role, bute defensivly it worked magic against some pokes.
Compare to Steel, they share a ground weakness, which a million Flying and Levitators can handle. And youre saying Fire and Fighting atent common attack types? Honestly how many rock moves outside of Stealth Rock do you honestly see? People hate Stone Miss and never use Rock Slide. Fire is just as common as Water moves really. And again pomemon like Rotom-H and Moltres have no ground weakness and can neutralize water with Sunny Day. This makes it a separate and alternative defensive style.
The biggest problem with Fire types in general is simply that they absolutely HATE entry hazards of all kinds, which obviously limits the amount of times they can switch in, and Ice has the same problem. And people always know this, whether subconsciously or not. Just look at the Fire types in OU play:
Heatran = Neutral to Rock
Blaziken = Neutral to Rock
Infernape = Neutral to Rock
Volcarona = 4x weak to Rock, but has godlike stats and Quiver Dance to make up for it
Ninetales = Weak to Rock, but has Drought
Again, Ice types too:
Mamoswine = Neutral to Rock
Cloyster = Weak to Rock, but has Shell Smash and shouldn't be switching in a lot anyway
Kyurem-B = Weak to Rock, has a 700 BST
Froslass = Suicide Lead, SR weakness practically irrelevant
Unless we get something akin to a Mini-Ho-oh, a defensive Fire type that's weak to Rock just isn't in the cards.
Heatran = Neutral to Rock
Blaziken = Neutral to Rock
Infernape = Neutral to Rock
Volcarona = 4x weak to Rock, but has godlike stats and Quiver Dance to make up for it
Ninetales = Weak to Rock, but has Drought
Again, Ice types too:
Mamoswine = Neutral to Rock
Cloyster = Weak to Rock, but has Shell Smash and shouldn't be switching in a lot anyway
Kyurem-B = Weak to Rock, has a 700 BST
Froslass = Suicide Lead, SR weakness practically irrelevant
Unless we get something akin to a Mini-Ho-oh, a defensive Fire type that's weak to Rock just isn't in the cards.
Exactly. And the same goes for Flaming Rainbow Bird with Regenerator, bulk and Roost
I was just about to post that no matter what the type combo, Fire is always weak to either Water or Rock, which are arguably its worst weaknesses. If it could possibly be neutral to both, then maybe that one Pokemon would be a good defensive Pokemon, but Water is such a common type and good defensively and offensively, and Rock is such a great offensive type - and there's Stealth Rock, obviously. So while Fire is now a tad better with its Fairy resistance, it's not a good defensive typing.
- Status