CAP 34 - Part 8 - Moveset Discussion

[SHSP]

CAP 34 So Far!

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In this stage, we are determining the required and disallowed competitive moves by creating a list of approved movesets. The movesets will be decided based on the competitive needs and limitations of this project. We are not submitting full movepools at this time. There will be a later stage for movepool submissions (level-up sets, egg moves, etc) once the required and disallowed moves have been determined via the accepted movesets.

Moveset Discussion Rules & Guidelines

There should be five kinds of posts in the thread:

• Moveset Archetype Submissions
• Moveset Submissions
• Moveset Edits/Option Submissions
• General Commentary
• Section Leader/Topic Leader Announcements/Updates

This means that no moves can be suggested or commented on unless they are part of a full competitive moveset submission or suggested as a additional option for one or more previous movesets. Any recommendations to disallow certain moves should only be in reference to moves contained in previously posted movesets.

The general flow of this thread should go like this:

1. People post moveset archetypes.
2. People post moveset submissions for these archetypes in a prescribed format (see below)
3. Other people suggest to add/remove moves or other options to previously posted movesets (see below)
4. Other people propose edits to the descriptive information with previously posted movesets
5. Other people comment on the competitive pros and cons of previously posted movesets, additions/removals, and proposed edits
6. Continuously over the course of the thread, the movepool leader updates the first post in the thread with the "currently accepted" movesets and other information related to the status of the intelligent community consensus (see below)

By the end of this discussion thread, we should have the following outputs:

• The top post in the thread (maintained by the Movepool Leader) will contain a list of all edited, approved movesets
• The top post will list controversial movesets and/or optional moves that need to be voted on by the community

Prohibited Moves:
Legendary Signature Moves are banned from discussion unless one (or more) is specifically allowed by the combined consensus of the TL and the Movepool Leader. The following moves are considered Legendary Signatures:

Legendary Signature Moves

Aeroblast
Astral Barrage
Behemoth Bash
Behemoth Blade
Blue Flare
Bolt Strike
Crush Grip
Core Enforcer
Dark Void
Diamond Storm
Doom Desire
Dragon Ascent
Dynamax Cannon
Eternabeam
Fleur Cannon
Freeze Shock
Fusion Bolt
Fusion Flare
Geomancy
Glacial Lance
Glaciate
Heart Swap
Hyperspace Fury
Hyperspace Hole
Ice Burn
Judgement
Jungle Healing
Land's Wrath
Light of Ruin
Lunar Dance
Luster Purge
Magma Storm
Mist Ball
Moongeist Beam
Oblivion Wing
Origin Pulse
Photon Geyser
Plasma Fists
Precipice Blades
Prismatic Laser
Psycho Boost
Psystrike
Relic Song
Roar of Time
Sacred Fire
Searing Shot
Secret Sword
Seed Flare
Shadow Force
Spacial Rend
Spectral Thief
Steam Eruption
Surging Strikes
Sunsteel Strike
Techno Blast
Thousand Arrows
Thousand Waves
V-Create
Wicked Blow

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Moveset Submissions

Movesets should be posted in the following format:

Moveset Submission

Name: Agility Sweeper
Move 1: Agility
Move 2: Thunderbolt
Move 3: Energy Ball
Move 4: Earth Power / Focus Blast
Ability: Sheer Force
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid / Modest

• Agility doubles CAP X's speed, which allows it to sweep.
• Because of CAP X's Electric typing, Thunderbolt can hit Water-types like Arghonaut and Toxapex very hard.
• Energy Ball allows CAP X to break through common Ground-types which may look to switch into its Electric-type STAB, most notably Seismitoad and Hippowdon.
• Earth Power lets CAP X hit Pokemon such as Excadrill, and Aegislash extremely hard, however, Focus Blast is also an option that allows CAP X to deal with Pokemon such as Equilibra and Ferrothorn if desired.
• Life Orb's recoil is removed by Sheer Force and allows CAP X to hit even harder.
• Timid is preferred as it allows CAP X to outpace Dragapult after it has used Agility, but Modest can be used for more breaking power, notably allowing CAP X to OHKO Toxapex.

Copyable template

[B]Moveset Submission[/B]

Name:
Move 1:
Move 2:
Move 3:
Move 4:
Ability: (optional)
Item: (optional)
EVs: (optional)
Nature: (optional)
[LIST]
[*]
[*]
[*]
[/LIST]

Please keep to the above format so the movepool leader can easily see which posts in the thread are proposing new moveset submissions, and can easily locate the information when updating the top post in the thread.

Ability, Item, EVs, and Nature are optional. All that is required are four moves, a name, and some descriptive information (in bullet form).

Any suggested moveset posted without any reasonable description will be deleted by the moderators. People should not spam movesets, post without checking the movesets already submitted, or post movesets without thinking them through.

Although we are not posting movesets in the full C&C analysis format, you should generally adhere to C&C standards where it makes sense. While there will not be excessively strict moderation on this, use common sense. Don't get too slash-happy with moves, no stupid names, use proper spelling and grammar, etc.

If you are unsure of the optimal ability, item, EVs, or nature -- you can leave it out and it can be edited in later over the course of the thread. By the end of the thread, every accepted moveset should be filled in completely. That doesn't mean we need to be 100% sure of every aspect of the moveset. It's fine if we go with our best guess and leave it to the playtest to optimize it.


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Moveset Edits/Option Submissions

Edits/options should be made by copying the most recent version of the moveset and description into an unattributed quote tags ([ QUOTE][ /QUOTE]). Then make any edits, additions, or replacements in bold text, removals should be in strike-through text. The most recent copy should taken from the top post or from the original submission post, depending on whichever one is most current.

Posters can and should comment on the reasoning and background for any proposed edits outside of Quote tags. Simple wording or spelling corrections do not need any explanation or commentary.

Additional move proposals must be made in the context of one or more movesets. The user cannot simply post "I suggest we add Taunt as an option to all non-choiced movesets", for example.


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Movepool Leader/Topic Leader Posts

The first post under the OP is reserved by the Movepool Leader, and will serve as the reference post for the current status of the discussion.

When the Movepool Leader determines that a moveset, option, or edit is accepted by intelligent community consensus, they will add/update a list of "Approved Movesets" in the first post. The Movepool Leader SHOULD NOT add every submission to the first post automatically, simply because it was posted in the thread. The Movepool Leader SHOULD NOT add a submission to the first post if it was not actively accepted by intelligent community consensus. "Lack of any response" is not the same as "acceptance". As with all CAP discussion threads, the leader should always use their best judgement.

If a proposal has received significant intelligent feedback (positive or negative), but it has not yet reached consensus, the Movepool leader should add it to an "Under Consideration" list in the first post. If the thread ends with controversial items that can't reach consensus, they will go to a community poll. In most cases, the "Under Consideration" list should be comprised of full movesets or additional option proposals. Edits to the description of most movesets, probably will not require extensive discussion or polling.

As the Movepool Leader makes updates to the first post, they should also post announcements in the thread indicating what they have added or updated. This will allow active discussion participants to easily track the progress of the thread. The Topic Leader should also post regular feedback in the thread, like every other competitive discussion.

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Gen VII example

Name: Agility Sweeper
Move 1: Agility
Move 2: Thunderbolt
Move 3: Ice Beam
Move 4: Earth Power / Energy Ball
Ability: Sheer Force
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Modest / Timid

• Agility doubles CAP X's speed, which allows it to sweep.
• Because of CAP X's Electric typing, Thunderbolt can hit Water-types like Arghonaut very hard.
• Ice Beam complements Thunderbolt very well, allowing it to hit Ground-types like Garchomp.
• Earth Power lets CAP X hit Heatran and Mega Crucibelle very hard, while Energy Ball lets it hit Gastrodon and Mega Swampert harder.
• Sheer Force powers up CAP X's main moves.
• Life Orb's recoil is removed by Sheer Force and allows CAP X to hit even harder.
• Modest is preferred for more power, but Timid can be used to outspeed Gyarados and Heatran before boosting.

 

[SHSP]

Howdy yall, and welcome to the home stretch of CAP 34! I'll once again be walking us through moves, this time movesets proper, but before we jump into that I'd like to do a little bit of my usual housekeeping and questioning- not too too much this time around, though, as both our defining moves stages have done a lot of great groundwork to let us hit the ground running here.

As a reminder, here's the list of Defining Moves:

Required: Poison Stab (Sludge Wave/Sludge Bomb), Dragon Stab (Clanging Scales), Clangorous Soul
Choose At Least One: Water Coverage (Hydro Pump/Surf), Fire Coverage (Fire Blast/Flamethrower)
Optional: Fighting Coverage (Focus Blast/Aura Sphere), Physical Fighting Coverage (Close Combat/Superpower)

And our stat spread:

HP	Atk	Def	SpA	SpD	Spe	BST		PS	SS	PT	ST	BSR
45	43	117	120	110	115	550		67.11	147.94	90.79	86.63	589.55

Defining Moves: Surf, Sludge Bomb, Sludge Wave, Clanging Scales, Clangorous Soul

Firstly, with our shiny new stat spread in mind, does anything off of our defining moves list need tweaking? Is anything on the list not necessary to consider anymore?

Secondly, our defining moves combined with the other elements of CAP 34 (notably Throat Spray) gave us a rather clear idea of its play patterns and how most of its sets are going to look. With our stats in mind, does that idea of a Clangorous Soul cleaner need any updates? Are there other roles or types of sets that we can fill that we should consider?

I wanna make this a quicker start, so I'm setting a 24 hour deadline on discussion.

 

[N-Manifold]

I know that this is understood, but since we already have water coverage we absolutely should not have fire coverage. Other coverage is an interesting question. We will always (modulo bans and restrictions in OU) have tera blast for coverage, but in general do we want this thing to be limited in coverage? I personally think so, and suspect that is a popular take.

In general I think our moves can't affect all that much at this point. Any roles that aren't focused on spray are out of the question, and I can't imagine we use spray if we're not doing clangorous at this point.

 

[Samirsin]

Does anything off of our defining moves list need tweaking? Is anything on the list not necessary to consider anymore?
I don't think it needs Physical Fighting Coverage (Close Combat/Superpower) after that massive Special Attack, as it should have a weak point, and if it has to have one, it should be a weaker move, like Low Sweep or Brick Break, otherwise it will just be almost impossible to counter or check.

 

[mark6870]

I agree with Sam and I'd honestly go further and say we don't need Fighting coverage at all. Fighting as a typing is really good for us, but it hinged on having a solid enough Attack stat to justify the use of Close Combat. With that gone, Fire Blast/ Hydro Pump are more powerful or more consistent than Focus Blast/Aura Sphere and I'm not sure we should bother having it around.

 

[ausma]

Firstly, with our shiny new stat spread in mind, does anything off of our defining moves list need tweaking? Is anything on the list not necessary to consider anymore?

Good night Fighting-type coverage. I think Fire- and Water-type coverage is far superior here for their BP and... well, the towering SpAtk over Attack. Not too much else that needs to be said there. The rest looks alright!

Secondly, our defining moves combined with the other elements of CAP 34 (notably Throat Spray) gave us a rather clear idea of its play patterns and how most of its sets are going to look. With our stats in mind, does that idea of a Clangorous Soul cleaner need any updates? Are there other roles or types of sets that we can fill that we should consider?

Our solid bulk and Speed tier leads me to believe that there is another class of moves we can take advantage of: volatile statuses. Namely, I'd like to highlight mental statuses like Taunt and Encore. These are two moves that have seen a lot of success on setup sweepers with good Speed, solid mixed bulk, and good resistances (namely Encore).

There are two forms of utility that these moves provide: more setup turns and shutdown of undesirable responses from the opponent. The former is particularly tantalizing as two set up turns for +3 SpAtk and +2 Speed to outpace Booster Energy Pokemon and threats like Choice Scarf Darkrai is effectively wraps. Though, most importantly, Dazzling granting us a priority immunity means that low HP pretty much should never matter unless we don't OHKO the target or we are outsped, which another turn of setup would absolutely help to alleviate. Shutting down undesirable responses from the opponent with Encore is also pretty neat. Not only do we get in pretty easily with our typing, but this also lets us play more into the combination of our defensive typing and Speed tier to support our team and more aggressively carve setup opportunities. Encore is extremely good at providing both, but Taunt leans more into shutdown which has its merits into Thunder Wave Galarian Slowking and Whirlwind Ting-Lu. Aside from mental statuses, there could also be some interesting ground to cover with trapping moves like Whirlpool or Block, or some more niche options like Magic Coat.

While the moveslots may seem like a problem, I believe our STAB combination is definitely good but not one we need to perfectly adhere to. We are built to take advantage of very versatile coverage types in Fire- and Water- that complement both independent STAB types very well, and this is only enhanced with Tera by boosting our coverage and giving our defensive profile more flexibility. Furthermore, because we have Clangorous Soul, Clanging Scales is not required to activate our Throat Spray, and Poison + Water is already nearly perfect two move coverage especially with Tera to boot. I believe giving depth to our setup pipeline would not only make CAP 34 a more efficient sweeper, but also provide diverse and positive forms of defensive utility for offense.

 

[dex]

Firstly, with our shiny new stat spread in mind, does anything off of our defining moves list need tweaking? Is anything on the list not necessary to consider anymore?

It does not. I am a firm believer that both Fire- and Water-type coverage should be given to CAP 34 on launch. It is easier to determine if variable coverage is broken after seeing it than to guess about it now, and luckily, CAP has a 2.0 release process, allowing for this. Flatly, I think CAP 34 should have both Flamethrower and Surf on launch. Whether or not Fire Blast and Hydro Pump should be handed out is a whole other debate, but that's one I don't feel as strongly about and am more curious to see what people think.

Secondly, our defining moves combined with the other elements of CAP 34 (notably Throat Spray) gave us a rather clear idea of its play patterns and how most of its sets are going to look. With our stats in mind, does that idea of a Clangorous Soul cleaner need any updates? Are there other roles or types of sets that we can fill that we should consider?

CAP 34 will certainly be a dangerous Clangorous Soul sweeper in the late-game, but I also think it can perform the role of a mid-game wallbreaker pretty dang well as well. I don't think this requires any extra effort on our part either; CAP 34's typing, ability, and strong STAB moves allow for this all on their own. This does allow for more moves to be taken into consideration, the big ones being Taunt, Encore, and entry hazard removal. I think both Taunt and Encore could have places on a more mid-game centric CAP 34 set pretty safely. Removal is a whole other beast that is sometimes difficult to justify. That one is a bit more tricky, but teams in today's metagame often enjoy having multiple removal options to support Pokemon like Gouging Fire and Dragonite, so it isn't out of the question. Removal may not be worth pursuing, but I did want to bring it up.

 

[Agile Turtle]

Fighting coverage really only makes a difference for one specific mon, if we're to axe fire coverage, I think we should leave aura sphere in there for the Kingambit matchup.

I don't see a reason to deviate from clangorous soul when stats were designed around it. Stats weren't designed around +1.

I'd be wary of generically useful support moves like hazards/hazard removal, as they teeter on encouraging non-throat spray sets. That's not to say we should do everything we can to squash the possibility of non-throat spray sets, but we should be thoughtful. Taunt/Encore are great tools I think in terms of disruption, and they can aid in arranging a set-up opportunity, so I would be happy to see them included.

 

[TheFurretStar]

I think we need Aura Sphere or another special fighting move to shut down Throat Chop as that is probably 34’s greatest weaknes. Or we can keep no fighting coverage and have Throat chop be one of the checks. I still think we need Aura Sphere but that will take up a utility move like taunt or protec.

 

[mark6870]

I think we need Aura Sphere or another special fighting move to shut down Throat Chop as that is probably 34’s greatest weaknes. Or we can keep no fighting coverage and have Throat chop be one of the checks. I still think we need Aura Sphere but that will take up a utility move like taunt or protec.

Throat chop does not see use and even with CAP34 using sound moves, our dark types will still prefer using Knock Off. Additionally, the two best dark types right now are weak to Fire (gambit) or Dragon (Roaring Moon)

 

[SHSP]

Thanks everyone for the great start and the quick turnaround on this. My immediate takeaways:

Fighting type coverage is getting dropped from Optional. This is more procedural/visual than anything, really, but its clear its nowhere near as much of a consideration as it was pre-Stats. There's been some talk about options like Aura Sphere, and if you want to submit a moveset built around it, be my guest, but they shouldn't be considered defining options.

Taunt and Encore are moving into Optional. These are useful, niche status options that play into similar Clangorous Soul play patterns as we intended, just in a slightly different way with a potentially heavy tradeoff in terms of attacking moves/two move coverage.

Some of the other discussion points (hazards or removal, mainly) I'm leaving up for more fair game when it comes to moveset submissions. This leaves us with this as a defining moves list:

Required: Poison Stab (Sludge Wave/Sludge Bomb), Dragon Stab (Clanging Scales), Clangorous Soul
Choose At Least One: Water Coverage (Hydro Pump/Surf), Fire Coverage (Fire Blast/Flamethrower)
Optional: Taunt, Encore

With this in mind, lets hop right into moveset suggestions. We'll be focusing on what CAP 34 might viably run as an option, focused on the current meta, and adhering to the format detailed in the OP of the thread for submissions. We have a rather clear and arguably straightforward idea of what the most main set of CAP 34 will be, but don't be too afraid to submit alternative ideas and considerations. Remember that the defining moves list is a guideline: you don't need to fit the whole Required section on one moveset, for example, just know that they will almost surely be on the final moveset and important to the CAP as a whole. Be sure to explain the idea behind your suggested set (or sets) and the details of it, especially if you have something like a bit of a strange/specific EV spread or a more out-there move to consider. Anything you're unsure about, feel free to ask in the thread or catch me on Discord, and I/the TLT at large will be glad to respond and figure it out.

I'm not setting a hard and fast deadline quite yet, as I want to see how active the thread is first and not quash discussion early. Enjoy coming up with some set ideas, I'm eager to see what yall cook!

 

[mark6870]

When it comes to slotting Taunt or Encore on a set, I think we go
Taunt/Clanging Scales/Hydro Pump/Clangorous Soul
It's pretty easy to drop Poison stab when we have Hydro Pump. Water coverage fits with Dragon stab as it can still hit Hemogoblin for SE, while also hitting Ting Lu, Equilibra, and 2hkoing Skarmory. We do end up getting walled by Jumbao, but that is the opportunity cost of having utility over a third attacking move.

 

[ausma]

Alright, I'll bite.

Name: Special Sweeper
Move 1: Clangorous Soul
Move 2: Clanging Scales / Encore
Move 3: Sludge Wave / Encore
Move 4: Hydro Pump / Fire Blast
Ability: Dazzling
Item: Throat Spray
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid

This one is pretty straight forward and pretty much captures the essence of this CAP and its designated direction. Those who have followed the process shouldn't really be shocked by most of these choices. We need coverage since our STAB combination thuds into Steel-type Pokemon, and Clangorous Soul is the core of this set. The main point of deviation is with the slashes I put over our STABs. As I said in my earlier post, we don't necessarily need both of our STABs to sufficiently get our job done, as each STAB type independently is a phenomenal complement to Fire- and Water-type coverage, and Clangorous Soul will be activating our Throat Spray anyway. I opted for Encore as the preferred slash here because I believe Encore is the most effective way to stack boosts with Clangorous Soul for its ability to force switches reliably in tandem with our defensive profile, but Taunt is still useful into phasing and Pokemon like Galarian Slowking so I think it's a fair enough "other option" so to speak. This should make it easier to clean offensive teams that feature offensive Booster Energy Pokemon which naturally outspeed us like Iron Valiant and Iron Boulder, and is a viable alternative at the cost of a STAB move. I favor Hydro Pump as our coverage personally, as it is a more wide ranged coverage typing that still hits our key targets, and notably is great with Poison offensively.

Name: Offensive Rapid Spin
Move 1: Clanging Scales / Clangorous Soul
Move 2: Hydro Pump / Fire Blast
Move 3: Sludge Wave
Move 4: Rapid Spin
Ability: Dazzling
Item: Throat Spray / Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid

Yes, I know this one is a bit off the cuff, but since removal is on the table, I wanted to try and build a potential set that takes advantage of it in a way that can still make use of Throat Spray to form a dedicated win condition and doesn't necessarily need to force itself to take a dedicated position in the lategame. Heavy-Duty Boots I think are always going to be an option as long as removal is on the table, so it's probably a necessary slash, but our stat spread and offensive profile lend pretty well to taking advantage of Throat Spray's other main appeal: offensive boosting. Having a STAB, a coverage move, and our other STAB/one of Taunt or Encore in tandem sounds really potent offensively to complement this aspect of Throat Spray, and I think Rapid Spin as a 4th slot is the best way to encourage it. But, obviously, Clangorous Soul is still a very powerful and good option even on a set like this. I think this could be neat if paired alongside something like Great Tusk that can't always get a spin off.

 

[Earthflax]

it's time for me to say what's on everyone's minds

Name: Stat Drop Breaker
Move 1: Acid Spray / Metal Sound
Move 2: Clanging Scales
Move 3: Surf / Sludge Bomb
Move 4: Clangorous Soul / Rapid Spin / Stealth Rock
Ability: Dazzling
Item: Throat Spray / ???
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Modest / Timid

• This set would utilize stat drops on more passive 'mons to pave the way for offensive momentum in the form of either setup via Clangorous Soul or hazard setting or removal.
• Acid Spray has a higher accuracy coupled with a non-insignificant amount of chip damage; it is able to preserve Throat Spray for a Clangorous Soul sweep at the cost of not being able to hit Steel types. Metal Sound hits everything and procs the Throat Spray boost, giving us an effective 3x boost, but at the cost of poor accuracy.
• Obviously there are very few 'mons, Unaware or otherwise, that would feel equipped to stay in with a drop this substantial.
  • This allows 34 to create situations where it is given room to set up, set or remove hazards, or chunk a potential switch- or stay-in.
• Both Sludge Bomb and Surf have cases for inclusion on Move 3. Dragon + Water is enough for a lot, although being a Poison type that gets crippled by Cresc is lame.

I definitely think other items could be run on a set like this but honestly believe Throat Spray to still be the best one, to continue to threaten a sweep. I also obviously don't think this would be a main set but it could be a pretty cool supplementary option.

gastro acid sub coming soon?

 

[Tunana]

Name: Phasing Sweeper
Move 1: Clangorous Soul
Move 2: Clanging Scales
Move 3: Surf
Move 4: Roar / Dragon Tail
Ability: Dazzling
Item: Throat Spray
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid

Roar or Dragon Tail is used on this set to phase out Ting Lu and Arghonaut faster than they can phase out CAP34. It also can phase other bad matchups to allow for potentially another kill or even a secondary Clangorous Soul if played right. EVs could probably be optimized further, but I chose the most basic. Roar activates Throat Spray as well, which is an interesting interaction if played right.

 

[TheFurretStar]

Name: Clang sweeper
Move 1: Clangoros soul
Move 2: clanging soul
Move 3: sludge bomb
Move 4: protect
Ability: Dazzling
Item: Throat Spray
EVs: 252 hp 252 special atk 4 speed
Nature: Modest
- Clang Soul allows for a lot of sweepyness - clanging scales is a good stab move
- sludge bomb is good poison STAB
- protect is more general
- 252 hp is for maybe tanking a hit and 252 special is just making its absurd special attack even more absurd

Throat chop does not see use and even with CAP34 using sound moves, our dark types will still prefer using Knock Off. Additionally, the two best dark types right now are weak to Fire (gambit) or Dragon (Roaring Moon)

hmmmm this thing has immense special atk and will probably become meta in like three days

 

[ausma]

Name: Bulky Special Sweeper
Move 1: Clangorous Soul
Move 2: Clanging Scales / Sludge Wave
Move 3: Fire Blast / Hydro Pump
Move 4: Heal Bell / Rest
Ability: Dazzling
Item: Throat Spray / Aguav Berry / Chesto Berry / Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP / 116 SpD / 140 Spe
Nature: Calm

Someone wanted me to cook up a Heal Bell set in-server, so here we are! This set is basically designed around taking advantage of Clangorous Soul's other primary appeal: the boost to bulk. Namely, I wanted to highlight our Special Defense stat as many of the main Pokemon we need to watch out for are ones that can threaten us on the Special side (standard Iron Treads, Equilibra, Galarian Slowking, etc), our Special bulk is fairly solid, and Clanging Scales chips away at our physical bulk. Generally speaking this set is aiming to stack boosts through heavy bulk investment and win through raw boosts and high BP moves. As such, this is why I prefer Clanging Scales to Sludge Wave, as with +2 with uninvested 120 base SpAtk, it's still OHKOing vital targets like Great Tusk. Incidentally, this is also why I favor Fire Blast here; Ting-Lu is going to 1v1 this set regardless, so I think you would rather just have general coverage into Pokemon like Corviknight. Though, Hydro Pump has its appeal into chipped Ting-Lu itself as well as Heatran, which you should be able to 1v1 with this set; I would probably opt for Sludge Wave with Hydro Pump, though. The most interesting aspects of this set are the item alternatives and Rest. I believe that to maximize longevity we need some kind of bonus recovery one way or another. Aguav Berry is my preferred alternative to Throat Spray, as the burst healing is likely to be more useful for our bulky-not so bulky gameplan, especially if we omit Rest in favor of the utility found in Heal Bell. With Rest, I think Chesto Berry and Leftovers are both pretty good options. We don't necessarily need Chesto Berry as our bulk is solid and since we're stacking boosts, we can use our raw bulk and typing to break through the sleep turns in a similar way to Rest Ting-Lu. These EVs outpace Great Tusk and will outspeed Iron Boulder at +2 Speed.

 

[mark6870]

Name: Stuff Cheeks Double Dance
Move 1: Clangorous Soul
Move 2: Clanging Scales / Dragon Pulse / Sludge Wave
Move 3: Fire Blast / Hydro Pump
Move 4: Stuff Cheeks
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe* (see salac berry)
Ability: Dazzling
Item: Aguav Berry / Salac Berry / Petaya Berry
Nature: Timid/Modest

Big increase in physical bulk and another secondary benefit at the cost of more than one turn of setup. It doesn't use Throat Spray but these berries are still uncommon items so i still think they're on concept. Dragon pulse is an option if you don't want to lose your Defense boosts from Stuff Cheeks, but I really wouldn't count on it as in most cases you're already sacraficing a bit of power.

• An Aguav berry essentially cancels out the loss in HP from Clangorous Soul which makes CAP34 even harder to revenge kill or, if you're a bold fellow, go for a second Clangorous Soul. This, of course, comes with the opportunity cost of not getting +2 Special Attack since you wouldn't have throat spray.
• *With a Salac berry, it needs literally zero speed investment to outpace Deoxys-S. This allows for a ton of creativity with our EVs as you're investing speed to outpace pokemon before you setup and allows for a lot of bulk investment. For example, a spread of 252 HP/ 252 SpA / 4 Spe with a Modest nature still outpaces Deoxys Speed while still 2hkoing Venomicon and having over a 95% chance to live 3 Ting Lu Earthquakes at 66% health.
• Petaya berry is probably the weakest here, as you get the same amount of SpA boosts as Throat Spray, but it takes an extra turn to do so and the +2 defense becomes compensation instead of a bonus.

 

[SHSP]

Alright folks! Popping back in to give thoughts on the presented movesets:

Standard Sweeper- Definitely approved, this is probably our de-facto, go-to set. Fitting Encore onto this makes a lot of sense compared to other potential attacking move replacements. Not too too much more to say about this, though I would like to hear more about Hydro vs Surf. The spread we've selected had Surf as a primary focus, not Hydro, and there's been a split on spreads so far focused on one or the other.

Offensive Rapid Spin- I like removal options on something like this a lot better than hazard setting ones that have been half-subbed so far. Its definitely far from a main option, but I think its definitely a nice touch and can go with Throat Spray and/or Soul pretty effectively.

Stat Drop Breaker- This one I'm a lot more iffy about, leaning towards a no to. I can't see these being particularly healthy additions to 34, either becoming a particularly annoying option to get around Unaware mons and other fat stuff, or being really hard to justify over overall stronger base power options. I can absolutely see the design behind these, and can see them being effective, but the play pattern (and commitment to what Throat Spray is trying to do compared to other options) I'm not as sold on.

Phasing Sweeper- Calling to mind the Roar Zamazenta set right off the top of my head, I'm a pretty big fan of this one. Dragon Tail makes the most sense as a phasing option, I think, especially with the interactions between Roar and Throat Spray. I don't think there's a reason to exclude Roar, though. Overall I think this is an interesting option that could definitely see some sort of play.

Bulky Sweeper- Heal Bell is the real note of interest on this set, and I think its a nice touch that plays into the Clang Soul bulk boosts as well. Leaning into bulk is definitely a way I could see CAP 34 develop as time goes on and it gets more adjusted to the metagame, and Heal Bell, though definitely a niche/unique option, could absolutely fit these sort of builds. I don't really see harm in giving this option over to CAP 34.

Stuff Cheeks- This seems rather gimmicky at best, and also detracts from the main focus of Throat Spray very heavily. The double dance-esque effect is interesting, but also seems like its already done to a certain extent by our existing omniboost from Soul. I'm not seeing a big reason to consider this as an option right now.

There was also a mention somewhere of 50% recovery, and the TLT and I have come to a pretty solid decision against it. Its too effective w/Soul and pushes us away from Throat Spray and to more consistent items like Boots to try and get multiple Souls off.


That's my quick thoughts so far, and I'm excited to see if anything else interesting comes up. I'd also love to hear more about some of the more debatable moves here, specifically if we should be leaning towards or considering Hydro Pump, and the stat-dropping moves. I'm putting a soft 48 hour warning on this thread; if there's not much left to talk about, I'd like to get going, but if more comes up to really discuss as a community I'm definitely willing to keep it open further.

 

[quziel]

Honestly the voted spread had Surf rather than Hydro, so I'd prefer to respect the choice of the voters on that matter. If we find ourselves really needing the power, there's always the Post-Play Lookback, so I'd rather err on the side of Surf for now.

Rather than Rapid Spin, I wonder if we could potentially justify Stealth Rock here. There's the obvious moveset compression element; a lot of teams want offensive rockers, and being an offensive rocker that can also lean into a hard breaking role using the combo of Clang Scales and Throat Spray to just get that extra power is fairly interesting to me. We also have a somewhat interesting role as a mon that can use Throat Spray + our typing to switch into Venom as it rocks up, get our own rocks up, and then use the +1 to force it to respect us and switch out. I think we're allowed to sub moves now without explicitly couching them in terms of a set, but just in case I've put one below.

Name: Stealth Rock
Naganadel @ Throat Spray
Ability: Dazzling
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Clanging Scales
- Surf
- Sludge Bomb

 

[Brambane]

Since we are here and we have a stat spread, I thought it would be interesting to revisit an old flame.

Name: Alternative Sweeper
Move 1: Clangorous Soul
Move 2: Stored Power
Move 3: Fire Blast
Move 4: Silk Trap / Hydro Pump / Sludge Bomb
Ability: Dazzling
Item: Throat Spray
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid

With 120 SpA, you have a 62.5% chance to OHKO textbook Arghonaut with Tera Psychic Stored Power. This gives CAP34 a linear, selective, but very potent offensive tool. Stored Power is more nuanced with this kind of sweeper than something like Espathra cheese because:
1. You don't immediately start with STAB
2. It is very difficult to accrue more than one Clangorous Soul unless you are try to use ChestoRest or some other shenanigans
3. If you are using Chesto Rest Clangorous Soul and can get away with it, you probably win even without Stored Power

CAP34 would get some degree of unpredictability with Stored Power in its movepool, which I think for a one-off sweeper with average defensive use is a boon; however, the main counterplay of positioning to attack it effectively as it sets-up remains the same if it has Stored Power or not. Tera Psychic is normally bleh, with an immunity to Sucker Punch it feels justifiable, which is certainly neat.

Silk Trap has two functions: you get a turn to scout if your opponent Teras before you attack, and you can use it to punish offensive counterplay that relies on contact moves; think of it like Silk Trapping a Meowscarada as it tries to Triple Axel you. With Sludge Bomb or Fire Blast or whatever, you now carved yourself an opportunity to pressure the opponent.

While Stored Power is an acceptable 140 BP move because of its situational use, especially since it is just weaker than Tera Dragon Clanging Scales and itself has poor synergy with Clanging Scales, I would avoid the other 140 BP sound move given our spread.

 

[Rabia]

CAP34 @ Throat Spray
Ability: Dazzling
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Taunt
- Clanging Scales
- Surf
- Sludge Bomb

I'm a shill for any sort of utility-based approach to offensive Pokemon, and Taunt is an interesting route to take. Naturally, it bothers any Encore-using setup deterrent like Cresceidon or Ogerpon-W (would have to be a preemptive use), but it also denies Mr. Book/Glowking from paralyzing you as you boost, Kingambit from boosting alongside you. Seems cash to me :]

 

[spoo]

i'd like to push back against hazards and removal. i don't disagree that these moves have potentially useful and interesting applications on CAP34, but that is nothing special when it comes to rocks/spikes/spin. probably 90% of OU-viable pokemon would benefit from access to these moves in some way; there is hardly a pokemon that won't benefit from the building compression, the "reason to be used," the guaranteed utility in-game, or the situational utility something like +1 speed offers, but that is exactly why i don't like these options. they are boring and bad because they are always interesting and good. they are brought up every CAP like clockwork, but often lack a genuine and productive intention behind them, (usually) being thrown onto a CAP out of a lazy "why not" mindset or added as a safety net due to fear that we won't be good if we only have our main gameplan.

again, i am not arguing that these options don't work for us; only that the bar for adding these options should be higher. because if the bar is: at least one of [rocks/spikes/spin/fog] isn't unhealthy for the meta and the CAP would benefit from it in some small way, then these options will end up on almost every CAP without fail. these moves were correct additions on CAPs like saharaja, libra, and astrolotl because they were essential to their playstyle/viability, and they would be much less dynamic and effective pokemon without them, but i don't think that's the case for this CAP. for CAP34, the most generous interpretation of these options is that they are simply "good and not bad," while a more cautious interpretation would be that they actually boost the viability of non-throat spray off-sets –– especially when taken out of isolation and put into context with other utility options we're considering like taunt or phazing. it's also not even like offense is at a loss for good hazard setters or is crying out for more removal; these are unnecessary additions on multiple fronts. the bar should be higher.

lightning round thoughts on other options:

• stored power: this one's cool, i think having a release valve into unaware walls (basically just argh) is honestly healthy. this move also comes with the large opportunity cost of not running one of our stabs (we are never running sludge/clang/stored), and it doesn't even screw over argh That Bad, so i reckon it's a safe addition
• silk trap: we are already giving out two signature moves, we don't need a third; if we want to hand out a funny protect move then it should just be spiky shield as that has a more reasonable distribution (though i am not advocating for spiky here, either)
• hydro pump and fire coverage: this kind of comes down to whether we want to "start strong and nerf down" like we usually do, or take a different kind of risk and respect what the original stat spread accounted for. no strong feelings from me, either way is a risk in its own right, but gun to my head and i think surf alone is probably fine
• phazing: roar and dragon tail good
• heal bell: i kinda really doubt this sees use but i'm willing to take a chance on it anyways. given that we're toxic-immune and don't care much about wisp, the selfish benefits of status removal are very small, and given offense's fast pace + the relative lack of status in the meta compared to past generations, i'm not sure how much selfless benefit it has either. i also doubt that these benefits ever outweigh the awkward coverage issues that running heal bell produces. still, the interaction with throat spray is pretty cool and i'd like to see if it ends up working
• taunt: cool and generally inoffensive, i don't hate this one at all

things i haven't seen brought up that could be interesting:

• destiny bond: i probably wouldn't give this out alongside encore and taunt, but this is a neat "fuck you" option that is not gamebreaking and is one that i think would actually see a bit of play, perhaps moreso than taunt
• draining kiss: kinda surprised this hasn't been mentioned yet. this synergizes very well with our low HP and also patches up the hole that water/poison coverage has (dragapult). versatility and unpredictability on sweepers is not strictly necessary in SV, but highly appreciated nonetheless, and draining kiss makes us less linear but remains a weak enough option as to not dramatically flip counterplay the way something like strong fire coverage does. i put this in the same boat with stored power
• will-o-wisp: screws over counterplay like gambit, sorta ting-lu, maybe other stuff i can't think of (?), at the notable cost of not running one of ours STABs. feel like this has "hazards/removal syndrome" but to a lesser and more acceptable extent; it expands our toolkit and offers some situational team support without totally flipping counterplay. not as sold on this compared to other options, but thought it was worth mentioning

 

[SHSP]

Thanks everyone for the discussion and the patience! After discussing with the TLT, I've decided on the following list for the 1.0 release:

Required Moves

Surf
Clanging Scales
Clangorous Soul
Flamethrower
Sludge Bomb
Sludge Wave
Encore
Taunt
Roar
Dragon Tail
Stored Power
Heal Bell
Destiny Bond
Draining Kiss

Gen 9 Universal Moves

Draco Meteor
Endure
Facade
Helping Hand
Protect
Rest
Sleep Talk
Substitute
Take Down
Tera Blast

There's a few moves that didn't make this list, most notably removal or hazards. We've decided against them as they end up being very extraneous and not particularly necessary for CAP 34, and at their worst detracting from the main goal we're looking to hit. We're also leaning towards the lower power STABs in Surf and Flamethrower to start out with at the least, as the spread was more built around that and there was pushback to some suggestions of stuff like Hydro. Otherwise, discussion was mostly pretty direct and in agreement on the list, and I'm excited to toss it over to Kenn for Secondary Ability!